UKC

Hi everyone, 

what considerations do people consider for a long walk in for climbs? 

I am looking at heading to the Isle of Arran mid October to climb 'South Ridge Direct - Cir Mhor', however the walk in is 2 - 2.5 hrs, and then most of the accounts of climbing for this route seem to start early and finish as the sun is going back down. 

With a pair, I will likely split the kit that is being carried between he two but I have the tendency to carry the entire of my rack into a climb and then thin it down at the foot of the crag, as I am able to see what is required. An example of a few considerations, I can predict to see is;

- carry only necessary kit (yet I don't want to get caught out with some kit)

- Split kit between the 2 climbers. 

Thank you in advance, 

Luke

My first consideration would be you've got circa 10 1/2 hours of day light to get in, do the route and descend.  Kit should be obvious, and start in the dark and be prepared to finish the descent in the dark too, so general hill fitness will be a big help 

Read up on the route, consider if you will need micro cams/ wires (rock type, grade, reputation for run out), if not ditch those. Does the route description mention any wide cracks? If not ditch the huge cams. Are the pitches long or near your max grade? Maybe take more wires and quickdraws. 

What is the core rack you would take on a route you can't see the entirety of?

My choice would be:

Set and a half of wires (several doubles in low sizes)

Dragon cams 0-5 (or equivalent, gives 2 options for large nut width cracks, some might leave behind the 5 but I do a decent amount of fist jamming cracks)

4 alpine draws, 4 25cm draws (more if climbing meaty pitches, never more than 15 in total)

3*120cm slings with snap gates

4-6 screw gates (2 per belay and then a couple for self rescue purposes if things go pear shaped).

Not what you were asking so this unsolicited advice may be obnoxious, but I once learned a hard lesson about this and wouldn't want myself or anyone else to repeat it. If we'd had a headtorch for leading a few more pitches, we'd have avoided an unplanned bitterly cold heavy frost night on a sloping ledge about the size of a 2 seat sofa. Never again!!

If this is new territory for you, don't forget to have at least 1 headtorch per party preferably 1 per person. Petzl (and others) make some tiny lightweight headtorches that are aimed at emergency use if you don't want or don't have a headtorch already. The tiny emergency ones aren't super bright or fantastic but they are tiny and light, good enough if you weren't planning to need one.

Example: Petzl e+light, 40 lumens 3.5 hours, quoted as only 26g, tiny!, 10 year battery life in storage, around £25

https://m.petzl.com/INT/en/Sport/Headlamps/ePLUSLITE

Probably in October the days aren't yet short enough to catch you out if things don't go according to plan... probably... but you never know!

+1 lightweight survival bag per 2 people (or 1 blizzard bag per 2 people in winter conditions)

I like to be as lazy as possible so would recommend walking in the night before and bivvying. The advantages are numerous, not least walking up in such a wonderful location.

+1 Head torch 

Being mid Oct and the summit being just under 3000' it will be getting chilly so a micro puff/down and wind proof/waterproof, probably hat and gloves also.

That's not a particularly long walk-in - nor is the climb very long. (Highly enjoyable in good dry conditions, mind.) However, if your profile is up-to-date, you don't have many grades in hand - so it might take you a while. Pick a good day, and set off as early as you can.

Obviously, split the gear (including the ropes) before you start the walk-in - that's just common sense. You won't be able to see what is required from the base of this route, so sort out the rack before you set off: no point carrying a lot of stuff you're not going to use. You'll be climbing with a sack.

VS was my grade when I did it one October and had plenty of daylight.

Found the Y crack hard but protected with a couple of hand-jam sized Hexs. Medium sized Friend useful for the S and Layback cracks. Set of nuts and some slings for chockstones. Single 50m rope.

We roped up one pitch below the S crack after some dodgy scrambling. 

Worth knowing that there are two points at which you can scramble easily to the top: from below the three tier chimney,  turning it on the right, and on up the terrace from a point just above the same chimney.

We had one dry, windy day in a showery week and the route was fine; even with a few showers blowing over on the top pitches.

Hope it goes OK.

Take bikes if you can as the first part of the track up Glen Rosa is cyclable, that will reduce the walk in a bit. Remember at least a front light for the bike if there's any chance you'll be coming out in the dark.

A headtorch each definitely. 

For gear unless something is easy enough to warrant a single rope we just split the gear between us, rope each, one takes nuts (doubles up to 7) plus micros and 8-11 and  a few quickdraws. The other person takes cams plus the rest of the quickdraws. Unless doing a climb where a large cam is mentioned then usually micro cams and all regular cams up to 2.5 and the 3 comes along too on granite. The 4 stays at home unless cragging or a route mentions it. We each carry our own harness, helmet etc.

As much as possible we try to use the small Decathlon Cliff II sacks. The are just 20l but have a rope carrier loop so the rope just goes on last. Sadly they are no longer made but similar products exist. If we know we'll be leaving sacks at the base of the climb we'll take a comfier bag but the wee sacks are great for climbing albeit a bit less comfy for a long walk in. That said we've done 3+ hours into the Cairngorms with them. 

Other weight saving tricks are to carry a filter bottle and just fill up from streams so no heavy water to carry. 

Picking good weather days means less clothing to carry. During the long dry spell in the early summer of 2023 we ditched waterproofs from the sacks. 

FWIW, many years ago we did South Ridge Direct as the first route of the season. We walked in in boots and took 45l sacks up the climb. We got up the route but it was pretty hard work especially the Y-crack with many kg of rucksack. If I do the route again I'll be in trail shoes and a very small sack. 

Fingers crossed you get good weather 😀

The walk in and out is a bit of a way but it's not arduous.  The majority of it would be easy going along the valley even in the dark. It's many, many years since I did it and I was HVS tops then but I don't recall any special gear requirements or an particular time pressure.  I'm sure we did another route that day !

A friend and I did it a couple years ago. We were both climbing up to about HVS at the time but lived in Avon so were less used to the more physical climbing you find on granite. 

We drove up after work on a friday, dossed in a carpark near the ferry port on the mainland and got about 3 hours sleep, got the first ferry in the morning, walked in with all our climbing kit and camping gear, dumped the bags and climbed the route, back down in daylight and plenty of time to put the tents up. We don't pack light when it comes to pro and will have had a full rack (~14 draws, double nuts up to 8, full set of cams from micro to big blue, 50m half ropes. Also in the bag was big purple and green for Labyrinth the following day!).

This was on 29th Aug, so a fair bit of daylight in the eve but not an excessive difference to now.

Unless you love to faff or VS is your limit, you'll be fine. There is only one 5a move (y crack) and it's on the gear.

Also, my memory isn't 100% but if you want gear info, read below (otherwise ignore):

A lot of the easier climbing is quite wandery. If you have them, make most of your QDs 60cm alpines. The harder pitches, mid-range cams are king. S crack is mostly hand-sized gear, y crack I seem to remember the 5a move is about yellow #2 cam, the layback was again hand-sized and i think there is a crucial-feeling green or purple (.5/.75) cam in the bolder rightwards move. If I was going to do it again, I'd have a single set of wires (maybe with a couple of brass offsets), a single set of offset wires, hexes green-yellow (lighter than cams) and a set of cams blue .3 - blue 3. A few 120 slings and as many alpine draws as possible. 

Take a small bag for the second to carry: Shoes for descent, a bottle of water, some snacks and bail tat. 

It's over 300m long which is pretty big by UK standards!

It's not sustained though so can be climbed quite quickly by a competent party.

… at over 1,100 feet, one of the very longest rock routes in Britain. As you say, not sustained, in fact a bit uneven, but superb rock and full of interest.

Walked in for that once - got there, geared up and it started to chuck it down.  Take a plan B or be hillwalking friendly.

I remember camping at the head of glen Rosa for four days, 3.5 of which had horizontal sleet passing through. No climbing was done...

Get fit, get fast. Train some more.

Match your rack to the route, your clothing to the weather (with a little in reserve)

Start early, so you don't queue on route.

Know your descent route, always have a head torch and map in your bag, even if it's mid summer.

If you don't make the cafe mid afternoon, reflect on where you think you lost time: walking in, too much mid route/pitch admin, poor navigation, bad route choice descending etc..

2nd dry base layer to put on after a sweaty walk in.

- Get your plan dialled, thinking about camping night before or starting early and being certain of nav in and out, up and down

- Personally, 2 headtorches per person, first aid kit and an extra layer; possibly a lightweight group shelter.

- But don't carry any unnecessary junk and think carefully about weight, e.g. rucksack, shoes, clothing, camera, etc.

- Slim your rack down, where possible, e.g. no need for micro nuts or cams bigger than big blue.

- Make sure all the team is fit enough

- Make sure weather and light hours are sufficient

- Try to work out where you can fill bottles, so you don't have to carry too much water. You might need something like 2 litres for a day like that, but if there's a refill near crag, you can avoid carrying 2l in.

- Know how to escape a climb and carry prussiks and a bit of tat.

- Have a few "decision points " in mind - e.g. entrance to valley, base of the climb, last belay within 50m touching distance of ground - so if you're suffering and things aren't going to plan, especially weatherwise, when you get to that point you can have a frank chat about whether to continue or call it off.

When climbing there I go over the evening before on bikes (Free on ferry). I eat dinner on the ferry and cycle to the bridge at Glen Rosa. Camp below SRD at a cracking camping spot beside a large triangular boulder. Its like a wee oasis grass meadow in a sea of heather. Evening ferry back.

It means your not climbing after an arduous walk in and there earlier than everyone else. Its also a very beautiful camping spot and sheltered.  

This is good advice (sounds like the camping spot we used), because the idea of doing that long walk-in followed by one of the long routes, then walking out again, all in one day, is not at all appealing. It’s worth taking lightweight campiing gear and staying several days so that you can do at at least three of the classic routes. Also, goes with out saying that you should be fairly certain of the long-range forecast first.

I was doing the walk in a couple of months ago and met a guy who joined us part of the way up the glen. I thought he was a hill walker until he told me he was going to solo SRD. I said to him to watch he doesn't stick his foot too deep into the Y crack as it can get stuck. He thanked me at the time for the advice. Realised later in was James McHaffie. How embarrassing!  

There is a taxi rank at the ferry, the taxi's go up Glen Rosa.

Best to book in advance.

… I’ve done worse that that … given advice to Joe about Right Unconquerable …

I seem to recall doing it over the May BH so it was a full day  but wonderful weather which made for a memorable day out.

Nothing wrong with giving advice, you can be a great climber and still get your leg stuck in a crack. Martin Boysen springs to mind!

And sometimes it's like hell on earth when the wind drops and you slowly die in a cloud of midges. 

Hopefully this is some use - 

Rack wise we took one 60m rope, a set of (7?) cams to blue, 1.5 sets of wires, usual personal slings / screw gates / nut keys and twelve draws (8 of which were alpine draws.) We took doubles of the small wires but if I was doing it again I would take doubles of 5 - 10 as the rock lent itself to bigger gear. 

Route - we didn't stick religiously to the route descriptions (I led the S crack as part of our second pitch) and did it in 9 pitches. We thought 3 of these were VS, the others all V. Diff.

I'd take small sacs (we had 25litre ones) each on the day and take them on the route. We did this because we wanted to walk over Goat Fell when we had finished. For anyone though you obviously end up on a mountain summit a long way from stashed gear at the bottom of the route. Having everything with you gives more plan change options if needed. 

Non climbing kit we took - approach shoes, running waterproofs, / hat / gloves / walking poles, light synthetic duvet, map, compass, torch, bottle, snacks, two man bothy bag between us. 

Our day was 11hrs walking from Glen Rosa campsite, but we did go over Goat Fell when we had finished, which adds quite a bit of walking. We also did have grades in hand and were the only people on the route so didn't get caught behind anyone.

It is an amazing day out. 

I think this is excessive when the torch is just for emergency rather than planned use.

This thread is filling me with a desire to go do SRD again. It will be 30 years this October since I did it on a crisp, clear autumn day with a film of ice in that bucket jug at the top of the S-Crack.

Have a plan b if walking into a popular route (maybe not so much South Ridge Direct). Years ago as not quite novice climbers we slogged in to do Sou'wester Slabs only to discover two other parties faffing around at the bottom who wouldn't let us overtake. We had no other topos with us and not wanting to queue we did a hillwalking circuit of glen rosa instead lugging all the gear with us.

So yes advice is to not just have a photo copy of one route with you but ensure you've got details of alternative routes.

Mm... I don't think so. My headtorches weigh about 100g each. On a big day out, when it goes dark and you realise your partner has forgotten a torch (perhaps because they didn't plan to need one), having 2 is really helpful... It's also helpful to have 2 when your partner's torch batteries go flat; when it rains heavily and a torch stops working; when a torch gets dropped... when you end up out for a long time and your battery can no longer manage to keep the torch bright (more than 2hrs for many torches)... In short, it's the difference sometimes between things going well and things getting really sub-ideal.

I came upon this strategy the day after being benighted on Great End in winter... It's proved its worth a dozen times since.

Sounds like you need to change friends and batteries.

Mid winter I'll have a good head torch that will run all night, plus a small emergency reserve, think petzl tikka type, hopeless for navigation but I'll get off eventually. In summer just the small one, it takes hours getting dark anyway, plus i always start early.

You did well to be benighted there, just follow the stream down to the farm. The most common error around there is a 180 error with people dropping into Wasdale, or vice versa. 

It's better partners you need not a 2nd torch!

No: I have great friends and rechargeable Petzl batteries that work very well.

Benighted means that darkness arrives. I didn't have to sleep out. We found our way down fine, but having two torches really helped. On that occasion, it was me as a novice who didn't take a torch... partly because the plan was to be home well before dark.

You don't need to take my advice, but surely it's inarguable that it is a strong method (in combination with others) for avoiding being left without a light in the dark on the hills.

I have great partners. I just take the view that planning for human error is a good idea, and looking after the whole team is a good way to look after yourself. I've been with very experienced people who have forgotten a torch. Normally because "the plan" didn't seem to require one. It happens.

But, I enjoy the predictability of UKC "wit".

Good

Sorry, I've always taken it to mean forced over-nighting, not just walking off in the dark.

As I said above I'll always have a small torch 365, but not two in summer. Caving I'll have three, it's treating each trip's needs independently. 

One of the endless UKC debates! Does benighted mean it got dark (nope) or that one was stuck out on the hill/route overnight (yes!).

if you fancy it, currently I am still looking for a willing partner. 

Just get yourself a headtorch with a decent battery and make sure it’s charged up.  No good having two head torches if both have batteries that aren’t charged up.

Many years ago I lived in Kilmarnock, my mates dad ran a frozen food and egg business which had a delivery round in Arran. We used to get the first ferry across rush round Arran throwing frozen food and boxes of eggs at hotel doors 😀then ran up Glen Rosa and did a couple of routes before running back down and getting last ferry back. I carried the two 50m nines and my mate the gear in his whillans rucksack. One of the memorable days doing this was South Ridge Direct. Time pressure of this nature is great for stopping faff 😀😀😀

Who said anything about starting with non-charged batteries? Unneeded advice.

Thanks, but I live too far away now.

Then you don’t need the second head torch. 

Really!? That seems exceedingly unlucky. I've now got one of those mini back up BD lights, but for 30 years of Scottish, Lakes, Welsh, Finnish and Norwegian arctic winter climbing I've only taken one head lamp and never had a problem me. Maybe I'm very lucky?

MOACs would be very usefully sized bit of kit on the route I would think. 

I'll respond to you, Toby, because you always seem a decent and sincere person, but I really didn't expect so much flak for a practice that is actually recommended by winter mountaineering and ML instructors...

The use "in anger" of the second torch has consistently been for a partner who didn't have one or whose batteries died unexpectedly.

We can go in circles all day with "smart" people telling me to get a better torch, better partners or to stop being stupid, but I take the approach that, unless ultra light is what is needed, on a big day I should have a little bit beyond what I need personally in order to look after the team, especially as I am often the largest and fittest person. So, I carry more of the rack usually, but also a first aid kit, a bit of spare water and food, an extra layer I probably won't need, two torches; sometimes a group shelter or a foil jacket. These are valid judgements... neither overkill nor prescriptive recommendations for others.

I added the torches after being forced to borrow one myself yeara ago, and many others have had to borrow one from me since. I've also borrowed one from a friend on another occasion, whilst running.

I added the first aid kit after a fall led to a tumble down a gully where I was lucky only to gash open my hand, because my partner and I realised we didn't even have a plaster between us.

I added the group shelter/foil jacket after a fell run where our group was caught out by how incredibly cold the night was.

These are all careful decisions based on experience, and all the smart alec responses just stink of complacency. Whilst there are times where light is right, we don't need to debate the utility of a team carrying a spare 100g torch for a big day out.

Ta. That's me done with this thread.

I'm with you on this. I just find headtorches so unreliable that I have taken to carrying two little Petzl ones in winter at least. I'd have a spare set of batteries anyway so the extra weight of the torch itself is tiny.

Back in the days of those massive flat batteries in Petzl Zooms, my regular partner was so blase about going out with nearly dead batteries that I ended up carrying a spare for him!

Also, I very rarely go in the hills without a bothy bag or bivi bag; I consider it a potential life-saver.

I'd always thought the latter, but a quick check to back up my assumption reveals the former is actually correct. Who knew?

(Though I still think in a climbing context saying 'benighted' implies having to stay put on the climb/mountain as a consequence of being overtaken by night)

I wasn't trying to start a fight or score points - I genuinely think you seem to have been very unlucky... but then of course I then started thinking possibly it's me who has been very lucky! I'm currently reviewing three head torch models from the same brand which interestingly are the first I've ever had with USB charging rather than AA or AAA (or those big flat one Petzl Zooms originally took!) batteries. Taking just one, when not being sure how long the charged battery in it will last, definitely made me nervous last winter, so a second lamp went in the bag. But I'm pretty certain I move more efficiently and climb better in the last couple of decades having good quality gear that is much lighter than I used to use - so I do still think quite keenly about weight, I have some post it notes stuck on the cupboards in the back room from a cold Friday night where I was weighing all my crampons to decide which to pop in the bag for a very early start the next day. I'll even admit to having a Google spread sheet with the weight of the various coats I have that could all potentially serve as belay jackets!

But anyway, I basically agree with you that these days with things like Petzl elites and my mini BD one, it seems really silly not to take a spare second torch just in case, when they weigh so little. You don't even have to spend that much, some years ago I bought some little light from Aldi or Lidl for a few quid that also runs on two CR2032 button batteries and has some elastic so is easily put round you head. It wouldn't be perfect for walking off with but better than nothing, and I'm sure a chopper pilot with night vision googles could see it from miles away!

I’ve still got a couple of moacs