UKC

I recently began to get back in to climbing after a few years off. I have been climbing more and more frequently over the past few weeks and took out membership of a cracking new little wall in London.

I am really enjoying it and feel fairly technically competent, just lacking in power. I wander around the various bouldering/training rooms and zip up and down problems that are well set and regularly changed.

However, recently I've noticed something. The wall feels very friendly for the most part however there are one or two guys who arrive, whip off their shirts and then shout at one another across the rooms about how they just did this or that. Obviously grade is included. Fortunately it doesn't affect me, however I noticed it seems to really scare of the beginners and those who are less confident. I often find myself as one of the only ones climbing near these people while the other rooms are rammed.

It saddens me. Most of us try to encourage people who look like they're intimidated. But these guys do the opposite. The irony is that they are by no means out of the ordinary for regular climbers. But they do seem to damage the experience for many. I have been tempted to bring thing to the management's attention but don't want to rock the boat. I wonder if a 'top on' rule would help!

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Topless boulderers (men, for obvious reasons) irritate the hell out of me, but I wouldn't support a ban. The best approach is to out perform them wearing a novelty Christmas jumper.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I agree that it's not a good look, but it seems to me that it is the shouting and posturing that is the problem there. Not the lack of shirts.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

if walls insist on a top on they need to install good air conditioning.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Plus optional Santa hat? Perhaps a musical one playing a slightly out of sync Jingle Bells?

In reply to ti_pin_man:

Topless climbing at the ice wall is the sign of a proper hard climber.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

What part of their behaviour do you think would be improved by the addition of a t-shirt?

In reply to ti_pin_man:


yeah because you wouldn't want to get sweaty in a shirt while playing sport like a rugby player or runner. however do they cope!!

In reply to davidbeynon:
I agree about the shouting and posturing - specially in bouldering walls. can make for a quite macho and off putting atmosphere . or just plain headachy - even if the macho-ness doesnt bother you, not everybody wants to climb in the middle of a hooting troupe of orang utans

In reply to Sir Chasm:


I have to admit that in times gone by I have bouldered indoors without a shirt. But that happened because it was bloody hot (as per ti_pin_man's comments). However this wall is far from hot.

My feeling is that the shirt coming off inflates the ego. It's a 'look at me' . I wondered whether asking them to keep the shirt on may make them stand out less and therefore less inclined to shout about the (relatively average) grades they're climbing?

In reply to planetmarshall:


Not a bad idea actually. I may genuinely do this!

In reply to Morgan Woods:

Last time I checked Rugby and Running was not as friction dependent as climbing. Temperature can make the difference between success and failure on certain routes or problems.

In reply to Marc Langley:

Just to reiterate. The wall isn't at all hot. In fact it's pretty chilly. If I am able to climb the problems that they are climbing then they can definitely do it in a shirt! We're not talking V14 here!

In reply to Sir Chasm:


It is normal social etiquette in this country to wear something in most situations. It's more hygienic too.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

>It's more hygienic too.

More hygienic? I don't know about you, but I don't tend to use my armpit as an extra hand.

In reply to Marc Langley:

Last time I checked my fingers are quite separate to the rest of my body that a t-shirt covers.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I was told that I scared a group of freshers, pumped out my brain at the last clip at my limit... growling, blowing heavily then finally taking a whipper

Should I not be allowed to do this at the gym (shouting etc)? How else can one train at their limit?

T shirt is always worn though

In reply to ashtond6:
theres a difference between grunting and chuntering on a route, and turning a space at the bouldering wall into a private party for you and your mates. I'm a tad noisy myself, and a climbing wall isnt a library, but it gets a bit offputting when you have groups of lads (it is mostly adolescent lads) bellowing to each other across the room - can sometimes feel more like chest beating than incidental noise. "See how loud my voice is! Am I not a mighty specimen?"

In reply to whenry:



No, nor I. I do sweat quite a lot sometimes and most adults are the same. If you're not wearing a t-shirts it going to end up somewhere in the facility, your body doesn't re-absorb it.

In reply to ashtond6:

ps hello Jonny. I know who you are and you aint that noisy ;-D

In reply to davidbeynon:

It can be a good look, depends who's sporting it...

I agree with you though, the toplessness isn't the probem, it's the guys being dicks. Maybe the toplessness is part of them being a dick, maybe it's not, but there's definitely nothing inherently wrong about climbing topless. If I couldn't climb in a sports bra at my local wall I'd hardly go there for 6 months of the year as it's way too sweaty otherwise.

In reply to ashtond6:



I guess I just don't get it. I've never felt the need to scream/growl at the limit. Some grunting under exertion yes. But if it's loud enough to be negatively impacting on others around you... I really don't think it's on personally. You're not Adam Ondra.

Outside... fair enough. There is a fear factor to consider. There's the open space. If you're climbing something hard enough to genuinely feel the need to shout and scream there probably won't be many others nearby anyway.

In reply to Mike Stretford:


He says it's not warm at the warm, so there shouldn't be lakes of sweat gathering. And whatever you do don't try climbing outside, you'd have a fit if you saw how unhygienic that can be.

In reply to climbingpixie:



Agreed.

It sounds trite, but some sort of common sense and compromise is normally the answer.

OP: have you spoken to or emailed the wall staff or management saying that some of the other climbers' behaviour is making you uncomfortable and could they maybe have a quiet word or something? Climbing walls are businesses, and presumably put a reasonable amount of thought into how to attract customers by creating the right atmosphere. If a few people are putting off other punters by acting like tits then that's probably something they'll want to do something about.

In reply to Sir Chasm:


I do climb outside, it's generally more pleasant than a climbing wall on a busy evening.

In reply to Sir Chasm:


Probably the intimidating part.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

If anyone ever asks me to put my top back on at the wall I'm gonna turn to them and say "Do you know who I am". Then I'm going to take my trousers off for good measure.

In reply to abarro81:

If anyone ever asks me to put my top back on at the wall I'm gonna turn to them and say "Do you know who I am".

Ronnie Pickering?

In reply to abarro81:

and here we have a prime example (even in jest) of the sort of attitude that puts people off

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:



Its irrelevant that I am not Adam Ondra, he is climbing at his limit, as am I. Do you think he makes those noises when he climbs 7c?
Different climbers have different ways, Megos doesn't make the same noises as Ondra. Does that mean Ondra shouldn't be making them?

The noises have nothing to do with fear, its a trying hard noise. This weekend I was very embarrassed as I blew a route 1 easy move from the chains & swore ALOT. This is not right in a public place IMO & I apologised to everyone at the crag

In reply to pebbles:

If people are so wet that someone climbing topless at an indoor wall puts them off then maybe climbing isn't the right sport for them.

In reply to pebbles:

hi pebbles! that's good news

In reply to abarro81:

let me put that a better way. Why, if somebody had just explained to you that something you were doing at the wall was making them feel uncomfortable, would you react in an aggressive and confrontational way?

In reply to ashtond6: me too -. And likewise I apologised to everyone profusely afterwards. we all do it now and again. But in general I try not to be a dick .

In reply to Andy Hardy:

I'm not sure a group of topless climbers is really that intimidating, given how lanky climbers tend to be...

In reply to climbingpixie:

Hi Climbingpixie, being a dick at the bouldering wall isn't the sole preserve of male climbers, there are plenty of females around making sure everyone knows what they're doing, what got sent this week and whether they're on power/endurance/power-endurance training this week....

In reply to pebbles:

Because it would be fun.
More seriously, if it were people asking me to put my shirt on whilst wandering around the wall that would be fine. If they're asking me to do that whilst actually training/climbing I'd ignore them. (Whilst I'd love to do what I said above I'd be too much of a wimp in real life.) I pay my money to use a wall and basically I don't give a crap what other wall users think of how I look or what I'm doing (unless they're offering useful thoughts on training related topics). Fortunately, I spend a lot of my time training in a private wall where I can do whatever the hell I want, and the rest of my time is at a wall that I'm confident wouldn't introduce some shit tops-on rule.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

I'm trying to work out if you go to the same wall as me... I have been very excitable for the last week or so, telling all my friends about my last climbing trip but I don't think I've been being a dick...

To be honest, I'm generally fairly chilled about what people do. I like to give people the benefit of the doubt - when people are talking about their training or what they've climbed this week I think it's great that they're so psyched and focussed. I tend not to think that they're being dicks, even if they're walking up my project making it look piss. The people I do think are dicks are the aimless f*ckers who aren't actually there to climb, they're just there to socialise. The ones who sit on the mats, seemingly unaware of people climbing around them or the concept of moving out of the way, or stand there for ages with their hands on the starting holds of a problem while they chat to their mates.

In reply to abarro81:
climbings a small world and it relies on a bit of give and take and consideration for others. It might be quite fun sometimes to take some music to a crag - I wouldnt do it because it would be seriously inconsiderate and disrespectful to other climbers. I think behaviour at the climbing wall is similar - you need to be aware if what youre doing is spoiling other peoples enjoyment. put the boot on the other foot - imagine you rock up to your favourite bit of crag ready to try your project, and find a group of new climbers have a toprope in place and intend to climb up and down it all afternoon, because the crag belongs to them as much as to you....

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I'm a severe sweater. In some walls, at peak times, the sweat factor increases, and I feel I have to go topless, or I'm uncomfortable otherwise, and when I'm climbing at my limit, I dont want sweatiness to bother me, when I have the discomfort of crap holds to worry about.

But I'll take my shirt off for the route or problem, and put it back on after.

Toplessness can be intimidating, I agree, but it's the rest of the attitude that these lads have that's the problem.

In reply to around:

It doesn't intimidate me either because I'm a middle aged bloke, who's been climbing all ny adult life.

I can see that it is part of a class of behaviours which beginners, the young, women etc *could* find intimidating, particularly when accompanied by a loud running commentary on every move / problem.

(Not all climbers are lanky either)

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I know so many people who climb topless and don't intimidate other people. It sounds more like you have a personal problem with it. Likewise I don't like women doing their make up on the train but I have no reasonable argument against it. If people are actually being disruptive to others then someone needs to have a word but you do get macho types in climbing centers and you might not like it, but you have to be tolerant. It's an energetic, powerful activity so don't expect people to behave like they're at the library.

In reply to Tomtom:


It's not necessarily intimidating. Not every boulderer who insists in going topless is some paragon of athleticism - I think it just seems to have caught on as some kind of uniform.

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:


Is that being a dick? That's just training-talk, surely.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Some people are so sensitive, unless they are preventing you getting on your problems then where's the issue?

If it's hot, I take my top off. Dave Macleod says it's OK, so it's fine with me.

In reply to abarro81:


I know you're joking mate but the point I'm seemingly badly making is not about people not wearing tops. It's about the associated ego and how that seems to scare less confident climbers. You in your underpants is enough to scare anyone off.... but not for the same reasons!

More seriously... I don't ever recall you shouting and screaming to Ally about how mental the moves on that <insert grade whatever> were across a line of people climbing 5+. I suspect you don't do that now either ... regardless of your shirt!

In reply to abarro81:


Genius. Have some UKB waddage

In reply to whenry:



You are less likely to drip sweat all over the mats if your t-shirt is soaking it up.

I doesn't bother me and it seems like general obnoxious behaviour is the problem, not lack of a t-shirt.

My girlfriend watched her first bouldering competition the other week, as her daughter was competing in her first bouldering competition. She later commented to my on all the topless men, she just thought they looked rediculous.

In reply to Pete Dangerous:
I really think your misinterpreting my point. I even said that I have climbed topless in walls in the past. This in itself doesn't personally bother me in the slightest... I had a moonboard at a previous house of mine and just used to wear rugby shorts to train. What does bother me is seeing people who are showing an interest in climbing being intimidated away by a few mid V grade climbers running around like they're the only people that matter.

It was blindingly obvious that all of these guys were topless and so I wondered whether asking them to keep their shirts on may calm them down a bit. Hence my "would a top on rule help".

I'm not saying all topless climbers are wankers. But what I am saying is that a lot of the wankers that I've encountered... are topless.

When I started climbing, if I just felt intimidated each time I went I'd probably have sacked it off. So I think it's a shame this is the experience the people just starting out get at my wall.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Don't you know climbing without a shirt increases your max by two grades? Add a bobble hat for an extra half a grade. Friendship bracelets/ beads add a half grade too.
I sweat like a paedo in a nursery but don't take my top off cos I'm not buff enough yet. Give it a few months.

In reply to cha1n:


As I've said above, they're not impacting on me at all. If anything they clear the area giving me plenty of room to climb.

My problem is with the atmosphere it creates for beginners and the inexperienced putting them off from trying problems on the same bit of wall. I just think it's a shame.

In reply to Andy Hardy:




I'd tend to see it from a wall manager's point of view since they're the people who make the policy and have the ultimate responsibility for enforcing it.

If you run a small bouldering wall in Sheffield or South London and aspiring wads training hard are what pays your rent then being a loud, grungy, dimly lit shed with ripped people getting their tops off and power-screaming left right and centre is probably creating exactly the atmosphere that you want.

On the other hand, if keeping the lights on means getting in the parents with children, the nervous newbies who haven't done any sport since school and aren't sure whether climbing's for them, the boyfriends / girlfriends who get dragged along to climb a bit then have a flat white and so on, then you probably want to create a space where they feel at comfortable and at home, and if that means telling the keen youths who camp out under the Moon board to keep their shirts on when they wander around then it's your call.

It's probably not much comfort to think that people probably "aren't really cut out for climbing" if you're losing money because they've taken their custom elsewhere.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

>Hence my "would a top on rule help".

Isn't there enough puritanical misery constraining our lives as it is, without making an issue of the incredibly harmless choice not to wear a top?

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Topless climbing is indicative of a selfish and arrogant lack of finesse on the part of the perpetrator often brought about by poor breeding and upbringing. It's pointless trying to correct this because they wouldn't understand.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Dickish climbers will be dickish climbers regardless of their outfit in my experience, maybe you could request that they stuff their unused t-shirts in their mouths...?

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

So the problem is that they're w*nkers, not the clothes that they are/aren't wearing or the grade they're climbing.

Maybe the thread should have been about the fact that some people in life are w*ankers and you don't like them. I'm sure everyone would agree on that. Nothing to do with clothing or grades.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


If someone is a wanker they'll be a wanker regardless of whether they're wearing a top or not. Implementing a tops on rule wouldn't change their personalities but it might have a negative effect on other people wanting to use that wall as a training facility.

In reply to Trangia:


Like all those topless swimmers. Arrogant bastards.

In reply to planetmarshall:


Hi there, like everything else, it's context, extent and volume.........

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Yeah, I get where you're coming from but I suspect that people who are dicks will be dicks even if you tell them to keep their tops on.

In reply to Pete Dangerous:

But this misses the point Pete. Namely that I wonder whether getting them to keep their top on and therefore conforming with everyone else my have a psychological impact on them. I wondered if it'd help calm their egos. That was what I was trying to get at with this thread...

In reply to climbingpixie:


You see, I wonder if that's true. We know behaviour changes when people put on the same uniform, or the same sports kit. So why wouldn't being all topless create the same kind of reaction?

Agreed it's irritating for those who are simply ... hot.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

So everyone else who can climb respectfully with their tops off would then have to adhere to the new rules because it might stop a couple of guys from being dicks? I don't see the sense. I'm guessing these people annoy you but maybe aren't actually doing anything wrong?

In reply to climbingpixie:


Not necessarily... forcing them to climb in a pink onesie would probably stop the "alpha" male tendencies.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
I was thinking about this myself over the weekend.

My local wall (Eden Rock) is absolutely amazing and has one of the best atmospheres of any wall I've been to. It's incredibly friendly, open and welcoming. I can hardly recall seeing a topless climber there, despite the number of strong guys and girls who climb there.

Another wall I visit less frequently feels very different. It has a very 'macho' atmosphere, which can often be a bit offputing. It often has small groups of topless guys hogging problems for example.

I'm not sure if theres a solution, or if there should be one (surely it's up to the wall how it wants to run the spot), but it is certainly noticable and I'm sure the topless thing is one of the main factors.

edit:typo

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
Our club has had an outbreak of naked climbing recently (naked except for a beanie hat). There sure has been a lot of huffing and puffing as well as some hilarity.

I'm afraid I just find it all rather amusing. I daresay that my reaction to it makes me worse than the naked climber himself in the eyes of the more serious-minded, but...

In reply to Pete Dangerous:


In my opinion, assuming keeping your shirt on calms this kind of behaviour (which was the topic of the thread - I personally feel it may), a friendly atmosphere for those starting out is more important than stopping a few climbing topless.


Yes! 100%! Haven't I stated that a few times?

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I think the link between toplessness and behavior is far too ambiguous to stop regular climbers climbing in the way they desire. Just ask the people in question to tone it down. Don't punish others.

In reply to climbingpixie:

(Seem to have lost the italics here)

>> Topless climbing is indicative of a selfish and arrogant lack of finesse on the part of the perpetrator often brought about by poor breeding and upbringing. It's pointless trying to correct this because they wouldn't understand.

I think Trangia was being a bit tongue-in-cheek here. At least I hope he was.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Maybe tops-off should only be permitted on problems above a specific grade?

In reply to silhouette:


'Tongue-in-cheek' is probably OK with ref to toplessness, but when it comes to naked climbing, that's one whole other ball-game...

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:


And said individuals should at least have visible abdominal muscles. Although I guess a few folds do give you somewhere to store a bouldering brush.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Surely, the thing to do is quietly voice your concerns to the management - after all this is likely to affect their business. They could then talk to the individuals about their behaviour rather than their lack of clothing.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Way too many replies to read so sorry if this has been said.

Maybe chat to the lads? Offer a tip if appropriate, ask for a tip if appropriate - or even the time, just break the ice. If they are proper rude then maybe it helps decide things about whether to say something, if not maybe it'd make it easier to point out to them that beginners seem put off. They might just be loud, as a loud person myself it's not always a barrel of laughs to have folk assume you don't care rather than find out - it's about as easy to change as being too quiet.

Not sure tops have much to do with it and if they do then I think it'd point to a lack of being self assured - it'd be a bit puppyish. Most folk I see with their top off are just stuck on something and just doing there own thing.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I see it as a differing balance of freedoms on two issues:

On the first issue some people want to climb topless but this does put other wall users off (for all sorts of reasons) and as such I think insisting on a minimum of a vest top and shorts is a reasonable compromise in any wall who wants those people put off by topless climbers as customers. Climbing topless is also a hygene problem as more sweat ends up on the mats. Swimming pool comparisons are daft as these are wet room environments and hence easier to keep clean and hygene issues are improved by minimal clothing. If the wall is too warm having a damp cotton vest on keeps you cooler than climbing topless, so that's no excuse.

On the second issue loud posing is a real pain for most users and is nothing to do with climbing topless; these people should be always be challenged by the wall staff or they deserve to lose business.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Small fish, big net. Problem is that in this case when you're trawling for the occasional shoal of mackerel you can't easily throw all the dolphins back in again.

In reply to climbingpixie:


Swimming Pools are regularly treated with Chlorine. Perhaps we can allow topless boulderers if they submit to a pre-exercise decontamination scrub.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Try being a woman . The same thing happens (maybe slightly differently, but same principle) at school, at work, any environment really... I just ignore them, but I certainly don't agree with it. The best way to deal with it is to take the mickey, that tends to dent their precious strutting the stuff ego.

In reply to Morgan Woods:

Not if you are wearing gloves!.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
You will notice I said " Temperature can make the difference between success and failure on CERTAIN routes or problems. ". This is a factual statement and not referring directly to grades or the temperature of the specific wall in question. Its a statement of fact temperature can indeed make the difference between success and failure and reducing ones overall temperature by removing a layer may reduce ones hand from producing as much moister to help cool the body down and consequently play a part in failure or success. For all the people who don't read properly you will note I said " Play a part in success or failure " and not climbing with your top off means you can only climb certain climbs

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

A climbing wall is a specialised form of gymnasium. The word 'gymnasium' translated means 'the place of going naked'. All of this is just effete Anglo-Saxon prudishness. It's degenerate!

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
Not sure I'm really seeing the hygiene issue. Assuming you're not licking the mats is there really a health risk posed by sweaty topless men rolling around on them? I'm more than capable of being sweaty and disgusting with a top on after all. Are we not just using "hygiene" to mean that it's a bit yukky?

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

oh god I think the internet has finally killed my brain.

I have actually read all the comments on this trite thread and even written this comment - despite having loads of work to do

In reply to Andy Morley:


Said to the guy who is in a skinny dipping club!!

In reply to Dan Dyson:

You haven't answered! Tops on tops off? Tops on or off? No tops or tops on? Top or no top? Do you wear a top? toppy top top TOP TOP TOP TOP TOP TOP

TOP

TOP

TOPS!

In reply to Oogachooga:

Question has seemed to have gone that way. It was intended as a question of the psychology behind it. I hoped it'd go down whether there is a similarity between people without tops and people in the same uniform as far as behaviour goes. But alas, it didn't.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


I think you'll find there are a great many climbers who climb topless, when the conditions merit, without exhibiting any of the loud-mouthed arrogance you mentioned. As such, to try to control behaviour by requiring tops to be worn unnecessarily would be like ... using a trawl net to catch tiddlers.

ps. It's quite probable you wouldn't even catch the tiddlers as I really fail to see any possible causal link between the two observed states (i.e. top-off and unpleasant)

In reply to flopsicle:


If that doesn't work, get a couple of mates in and beat them at their own game:
"WHAT'S THAT GREEN ROUTE LIKE?"
"TOTAL PATH."
"THOUGHT IT LOOKED HARD?"
"NAH, THE PREVIOUS GUY WAS JUST SHIT AND WEAK. WHAT ABOUT YOU?"
"PROBABLY GOING TO LAP THIS PURPLE A FEW TIMES FOR A WARM UP ONCE CHUBBY HERE'S FINISHED FAFFING ABOUT ON IT..."

Some might say that in doing this you'd be lowering yourself to their level, but at least you'd be keeping your top on.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


Athleticism is a performance art as much as anything. One of the underlying principles is 'If you've got it, flaunt it'. The psychology is that of the performer gauging their audience - not all great performers are great athletes and not all great athletes are great performers, especially at the more Joe Public end of the scale.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


Never mind all this.
Theres's a wall in London that isn't too hot ?? Please where is this hidden gem?

In reply to Removed UserArdverikie2:
If you're genuinely interested PM me and I'll let you know. Don't want to splash their name on this thread. With the one aforementioned exception, it's extremely friendly with a wide set of good problems up to V10.

In reply to abarro81:



Who the f#ck are you? I bet you'd leave the knee pads on though...

Andy F

In reply to Ramblin dave:

I liked that!!

In reply to planetmarshall:


Depends on the volume

In reply to climbingpixie:


This. Totally and utterly this.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

>If you're not wearing a t-shirts it going to end up somewhere in the facility, your body doesn't re-absorb it.

I feel you may be misunderstanding how sweating works. Your body heat is transferred to the sweat which evaporates, this heat exchange causes the body to cool. So yes, it does go somewhere, into the atmosphere, along with all the other evaporated liquid from people's breathe and skin. Gross right?! But still not a hygiene issue.

I climb with my top off 90% of the time between March and November because I run incredibly hot. My behaviour doesn't change with or without something covering my nipples. Forcing people to effectively wear a uniform while climbing won't make people shut up, it will make those people that don't like wearing a top go somewhere else. The two aren't connected. It's like suggesting global warming is caused by an increase in handguns in the US. You draw a graph and there will be correlation, but that doesn't mean causation.

In reply to Ramblin dave:







:p

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Everyone knows taking your shirt off sends you up a grade.
If anyone is being a dick, I just threaten to take mine off. *Nobody* needs that.

In reply to mark_wellin:

Wow I wonder how women manage? Oh wait, I know . We just wtfu and keep our tops on. (Though seriously, my real issue isnt so much blokes with tops on or off, just people acting dickishly)

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I boulder 2 or 3 times a week for a few years now at White Spider in SW London, and unless it is dead of winter I will have my shirt off as it is incredibly hot. I have never ever noticed beginners or anyone else treating me or other people without tops on any differently. I think people shouting about how awesome they are climbing some hard grade will put off anyone, does the tops off really have anything to do with it? And lastly, what exactly is it about a male torso that freaks people out :P

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Please tell me that they were wearing bobble hats whilst topless.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I like to climb topless and I'm always friendly, but some people seem to make a point of tutting about it, which makes me feel uncomfortable. Do you think if I spoke to the wall staff they would ask them to stop/leave?

#freethenipple

In reply to jsmcfarland:


True, there are too many groups who deliberately shout out how hard they are climbing at a volume that appears to go up or down depending on the number of beginners nearby. These people are the dicks who need telling to stfu. It only appears to look worse for folk if they're also topless. If they were topless and quiet no one would care.

In reply to mark_wellin:

You see, I don't think it's anything like that analogy. We know that putting someone in the same uniform/sports kit can alter the way they behave. Why is it so unlikely that three or four guys in a group who all decide to go topless together don't begin to share an element of that behavioural amalgamation?

Obviously if two random people somewhere are wearing the same shirt (or lack of shirt) by coincidence we will not see the same effect. But if a group of people make the subconscious choice to do it all together... then I personally see no reason for their not to be a causational link with a higher sense of group importance. Is this not the essence of group-think?

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

"You see, I don't think it's anything like that analogy. We know that putting someone in the same uniform/sports kit can alter the way they behave. Why is it so unlikely that three or four guys in a group who all decide to go topless together don't begin to share an element of that behavioural amalgamation?"

Isn't 'no top' the only time we are not in some kind of uniform? Any top is some kind of clue about a person? Personally I'd find it more intimidating if a bunch of guys were all wearing the same top - that indicates some kind of group. If you strip people back down to their skin then you're just a bunch of people with no top on. Their behaviour is what makes them a group.

In my view we should all worry a lot less about what we or other people are wearing. The simple fact is that no top accesses a 60% more power reserve, which is 5% more power than a wolf T-shirt and roughly comparable with wearing a wolf or eagle vest. As such it should be used wisely, as a last resort.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:



Actually, there's a good point there. The last time I climbed topless at the wall it was because my mate had turned up in the exact same outfit I was wearing and we couldn't have that.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

It happens at my local wall. I take my 8 yr old daughter and tbh she doesnt give a hoot about it and neither do i. I find it tends towards 2 catagories

1) Good climbers (I aint telling Dan Varian to put his top back on) working on stuff and seem to find it helps them.
2) Average to good climbers in their teens to early 20's, usually with a few girls in tow making them feel good.

TBH when i was young and fit i was not adverse to taking my top off for football training so i dont see much difference. Its like a lion pissing on trees to mark its territory or wild stags butting heads. These young lads have a 20-1 ratio with the young girls at the climbing wall and they are showing off their physiques as best they can to attract/keep a mate (Catagory 2).

In reply to mark_wellin:


I think you may be misunderstanding your own levels of understanding. Some will evaporate, some will drip off, neither of us could guess the proportion and it doesn't change that fact that what isn't absorbed by clothing it ends up somewhere in the facility. Hygiene is one of the reasons we wear clothes.... fancy sitting in a seat just vacated by a topless sweaty bloke?


I'm not bothered by blokes climbing topless, it's been part of climbing since I started in the 90s, and at the same time it was the done thing at raves and dance clubs I went to. However, it isn't the social norm at non-water sports public facilities and it's disingenuous to suggest it is. In combination with boorish behaviour I could understand it could put some people off which was the OPs point. Obviously it's down to the climbing wall management what type of atmosphere they want.

In reply to RockSteady:


But as well as unleashing 60% more climbing power, it also increases the perceived dickishness of any behaviour by 50dBe*. That's enough to turn midget dickery into full monster swinging dickheadedness.

Use the force wisely, Luke.



*dBe - deci Bellend.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

Nearly. In actual fact my point doesn't really revolve around whether or not we care about people going topless. Though it seems I've been hugely misunderstood here. Perhaps I was not clear enough.

My question was whether a group of people who are loud and obnoxious and all topless could would be less loud and less obnoxious by being asked to keep their tops on. I based this on a thought I had about the 'uniform effect' and group-think. It was the obnoxious behaviour that was the issue for the people being put off. Not the shirts. But I wondered if the shirts were a factor in that behaviour.

Sadly the topic has been bent on to the usual old 'trite' (as someone else described it) thread about whether or not we like people going topless in climbing walls and we're hearing the same old points over and over.

In reply to RockSteady:

Not if most others are wearing tops. When wearing clothes is the norm I'd personally suggest that a group of people together all not wearing clothes differentiates sufficiently to induce a 'uniform effect'...

In reply to RockSteady:
Not sure about the vest calibration, but in general I agree. It's like the issue with using steroids or EPO. Where next? Once you've gone there everything else just feels like a faded version of life.

Boisterous group behaviour among young men is a fact of life, and very few combine the arrogant braying with any actual ill-will toward others. In general I think it's better that we should extend a bit of tolerance and maybe even try to socially engage. This normally works wonders with any group where you feel there's a bit of a divide or culture gap. Those who don't take this approach are going to miss out on a lot of things in life - the chance to do a murple V1 in the corner is probably not the most significant loss.

If people really are hogging problems and stopping others climbing, that seems like a specific issue that might warrant a gentle word from the wall staff, though in my experience beginners are (understandably) more guilty of this than the 'tops off lahydz' crowd.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

There is no need for tops off - its posing and at its worst just ends up with more sweat dripping on the floor.

Its just posing and some climbers like to show off - after all Olympic gymnasts manage to keep their tops on and they have to be working at least as hard. Or just about any other top level sport. technical clothing keeps them cool.

At the end of the day the wall can chose what it thinks is appropriate dress code but on the whole I find it more pleasant when people have their clothes on rather than puffing themselves up to try to impress.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


Fair enough. I think some have answered above quite succinctly though - possibly, but you'll have a far bigger impact on lots of people who want to climb topless without being dickish.

That was the general point of my last post. Probably better to tackle the behaviour using the normal methods - communication, engagement, a certain level of tolerance for the variety of human life, and some more forthright words where there is specific behaviour that is beyond the pale.

In reply to GrahamD:

I honestly just prefer not wearing one. I start to feel uncomfortable about it when I'm bouldering alone and someone turns up. Where do I fit on your scale of "people who are posing" to "people who are really posing"?

In reply to mark_wellin:

Not all sweat evaporates, and more drops off when topless when you dyno, when you drop to the mat, when you fall on the mat off your feet. You are deluded if you think there is no additional hygene issue to going topless. On the heat issue unless the room is close to or warmer than body temperature most any thin vest top (whether it wicks or retains moisture) will keep you cooler. In the end though its about who the wall wants as customers and if enough paying customers object then they need to deal with that. I don't mind the extra hygene problems or topless climbers btw.

In reply to Offwidth:

Given what's encountered when we venture outdoors I'm surprised that some folks are pulling the hygiene card.
I'm much more bothered by walls that allow kids to climb in trainers, who knows what's on the soles!

Hmm, a loud aggressive youth, without a top in trainers - a perfect forum storm!

Steve

In reply to willworkforfoodjnr:

Life is like that. There are loads of places you can't go topless however much you prefer it. Your views are pretty common amongst young white british climbers and the first phase of indoor climbing was very distorted demographically in that direction. As indoor climbing becomes more mainstream (as it is) I can see walls changing. I'd prefer it if we stopped being fussy about bodies but plenty of topless climbers have been showing off and are often rude about others so Im sure there is a lot of dodgy justification going on. Nudest events are very different in the body shapes on view and way more honest in that desire to go unclothed than the average climbing wall.

In reply to Offwidth:

What exactly do you think you're going to catch from a bit of someone's sweat?
And what makes you think that is the main contributing factor when you are touching holds that have had thousands of other people's snot picking, arse itching, ear cleaning fingers on them. Not to mention the beginners we are so keen to protect that climb in their street shoes spreading dog shot and god knows what else on the wall.
This whole hygiene thing is a complete non issue.
And no vest will definitely keep me cooler than wearing one. I base this on years of experimenting on myself. Thanks.

In reply to SteveSBlake:

There is little card pulling I can see and I'm one of the few who raised it. I don't care much as there are many other hygene issues (but it is untrue that topless climbing don't add to it). It also works both ways... does that dogshit end up on your vest when you peel off unexpectedly, or on you back.

In reply to mark_wellin:

See how you have changed you mind now and are arguing about degree (unless you are ignorant about what sweat contains). I'm not fussed about this given other hygene issues but some people are (and the stink of the room which is a biproduct of the urea, dampness and bacterial action you left behind).

Sports Science is telling us that propely designed vests help cooling so you need to volunteeer your odd physiology for some independant experimentation.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I climb at the Hangar in Liverpool and they've just started this rule about having to wear tops when you're there. Something to do with it being a family place, but the staff told me it was because new people are intimidated by my muscles, which is fair enough 'cause I'm a bit of a beast. Even sitting at the masters problems for their latest comp (which are off to the side by themselves on an overhanging wall with no other problems, by the 'adults only' training area which is mostly used by unsupervised kids playing on the equipment) I was told their rules were tops on at all times.

Doesn't bother me really, it's very rare that I work anything hard enough that I'm hot enough to think taking my top off might help, but trying really hard on very difficult problems with a crazy sweaty tshirt on really sucks.

So basically I reckon you should only be allowed to take your top off if you're working something that's at least V10.

In reply to Offwidth:

I don't disagree with anything you say there in principle - I was replying specifically to GrahamD when he said "There is no need for tops off - its posing" which I think in some (not all!) cases is total bollocks

In reply to GrahamD:


The only people who think having your top off is necessarily posing are people too fat to take their tops off without getting laughed at.

In reply to Offwidth:


So you're saying that dynos are unhygeinic? Can people who climb statically take their tops off then?

In reply to abarro81:

Someone had to say it. Better you than me. *hides behind the wad*

In reply to Offwidth:

The hygiene argument is idiotic.

Sweat is sterile . . . If left warm and wet (climbing walls are dry and cold) over time it may be a good place for funky stuff to grow. But that's irrelevent because it's always dry and cold overnight etc.

As previous people have said, if your issue is with hygiene then start complaining about all the people not wiping thier arses then climbing and bleeding/sneezing all over the holds.

As to the rest of the topic: Dress how you like and don't be a dick seems to sum it up.

In reply to ad111:


Again - this wasn't the topic of the thread.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I do get that a group of more experienced climbers at a wall might be intimidating, the fear of failing and looking rubbish in front of better climbers I think is something beginners often feel. I don't think the lack of shirts makes any difference and don't think their boisterous language would make much difference. But perhaps this masks the real issues on intimidation.

I think most beginners would find these 'macho' guys actually pretty down to earth and normal. Climbers are generally pretty grounded people I find.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


You keep saying your question hasn't been answered or the thread has gone off topic when in fact it has!
Everyone is saying there is no link between being a loud mouth and topless so making people wear tops won't combat the dick behaviour, it's just penalising those who want to go topless.
There won't be any form of behavioural effect when you enforce a uniform (or remove one if you see topless as the uniform of the yuppy), you will just see a segregation of types at different walls based on their dress code. I would guess dicks would be equally spread over the 'family friendly' tops on guns and the 'nipple liberated' tops off ones.
Sure, pumped up wanna be wads with their tops off flailing around on v6's (me included) can be annoying or intimidating and some will be loud dicks. The podgy 40's, technical tee/ trouser/ everything, chalk bag attached by a locking krab brigade can also be just as loud. Just as annoying and just as intimidating/ condescending to newbies.
The uniform they ascribe too doesn't dictate their behaviour

In reply to Offwidth:


Yeah, that's definitely true. I wonder if we'd be having this discussion if the average physique on display at the bouldering wall was your early 90s era English football fan stereotype.

In reply to pebbles:

I must have dreamt all those girls in sports bras at my local bouldering wall then... I thought I'd seen quite a lot of them over the summer but maybe the heat was making my imagination run wild!

In reply to ti_pin_man:

Totally agree. Most of the climbers down at my local wall are pretty sound people, some of them are more friendly than others but that's nothing to do with grade or experience, just personality. You do get the groups of loud boistrous lads but hey, that's what a lot of late teenage/early 20s boys are like and usually they're not malicious, just thoughtless. In time they'll chill out and stop feeling like they've got so much to prove, in the meantime it's easier just to ignore them or raise it with them/the wall staff if they're really causing a problem.

In reply to mark_wellin:


I have to disagree- sorry. One other person has suggested they didn't think there was any effect and provided an analogy of gun crime and global warming which was to illustrate correlation does not prove causation. I'd like to have seen a bit more to back this up in this specific case.


What makes you say this? We know uniform influences behaviour in a way that transcends simple visual 'segregation'. What I am hoping for really is a bit of science on the thought that a shirtless group will exhibit group characteristics that they may not otherwise display (as clearly, or at all) ...

I think this is maybe the wrong place for the question given people clearly have strong opinions on the wider topic. I've now posted on a psychology specific forum.

In reply to GrahamD:


I imagine some would quite like to not be wearing a top if the rules permitted it.

My own experience of doing active things is that not wearing clothes is less hot than wearing them, even if they're 'technical'. Once activity stops then maybe wicking materials permit faster cooling, but while heat is still being generated I can't see how they'd be any better than bare skin.
Possibly there's science to explain otherwise, of course - I've only ever been me, and I might not be statistically significant.

The matter of causing offence by being topless is a different issue. It's probably best avoided - but then offence is usually a choice

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Until Sam Whittaker decides to keep his own shirt on, I don't suppose there's going to be any 'shirt on' edict at the ClimbingWorks.

In reply to climbingpixie:


Maybe your local climbing wall is different so maybe this is a thread about tensions at one particular climbing wall rather than anything else.
There might be topless people or loud people at other walls but it might not matter there. Alternatively, if there weren't people who liked to use words like 'appropriate' and 'respectful' then the 'problem' would probably go away. As someone who doesn't climb topless but isn't fussed by it, I'd say all this makes for good spectator sport, and better here than in places where I personally climb.

In reply to abarro81:


Would you be doing the laughing?

The "problem" is one of perception; whatever you say about getting hot, *other people* will have a different perception. It's just one of those inescapable societal norms. Someone without a shirt is perceived as drawing attention to themselves by those who don't know them / aren't in their clique. This can be intimidating if the topless climber is *also* acting like a tool.

In reply to nufkin:


This is just bollocks.

In reply to planetmarshall:

Was that ironic? To show that you can chose to be offended by someone suggesting that very thing? Very good

In reply to mark_wellin:


Sure, why not.

In reply to planetmarshall:


Why is it bollox? Seems to me that it's true much more often than not. If you regularly found people spitting on the floor or something, that would be pretty hard to ignore, but if someone's climbing topless, then you can simply mind your own business, if you choose.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

This thread has really unleashed the views of some very dull and repressed people. I was originally attracted to climbing as my heroes seemed to break rules rather than sheepishly conform.
For what it's worth I overheat when I climb and my performance is drastically reduced by wearing too much. So yes I have been known to climb without a tee shirt indoors (certainly not showing off - you'd know if you'd seen me). Consider yourselves lucky you didn't watch me send my FA boulder problem this year in my pants!

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


There have been a number of responses on the thread that have explained that dickish behaviour is a) not limited to those without tops and b) not demonstrated by all topless climbers. I suspect that enforcing a tops on rule wouldn't change the behaviour of those climbers who are being dicks BUT might reduce the perception of said behaviour being dickish. Whether a wall manager thinks that's worthwhile is their business and probably comes down to the demographic of their customer base. Personally I'd rather people just stopped being so over-sensitive and just let other climbers get on with using the wall as a training venue as they see fit.

In reply to Andy Morley:


I find people climbing without tops annoying, but wouldn't go as far to say that I'm offended by it. It's the general principle - this idea that you can 'choose' whether or not to be offended by something - objectionable (oh, the irony). I suspect that people who think that this is true have never really experienced anything to get offended about.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I've seen some flabby specimens at Leeds Wall. Bad as old Germans on a nuddy beach I tell thee. However, one averts the eyes...

(In other words I agree with others that the issue's not really one of toplessness.)

In reply to paul_in_cumbria:


What about John Dunne? Shirt on or shirt off?

In reply to climbingpixie:
Again. I am asking about the impact of a group going topless has on their behaviour- whether it acts as a catalyst. I am not looking for opinions or judgements on people who climb topless. Are you saying that because anyone can be a dick (topless or not), then there can be no influencing factor?

You suspect enforcing a top on rule wouldn't change the behaviour of the problem group... this is more like it! Why do you think this? I personally think the opposite in this specific case based on the uniform effects, mirroring and group-think effects. I personally felt a group like this would derive affirmation and approval from assimilation with one another yet differing from the norm.

Regardless. This will be last post on it. I think it's clear I find this topic unusually interesting and few share that perspective. So I've moved it to a psychology forum!


Is that not exactly what is happening at the moment? The result is that I (and a few others) get a whole load of wall space to climb while the beginners / inexperienced are all scared off to other overcrowded sections. Personally I don't like seeing this. But each to his own.

In reply to climbingpixie:

ummm...sports bra isnt topless!!!

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


Just because someone is inexperienced at climbing doesn't mean that they're inexperienced at being a human being. You shouldn't assume that 'beginners' are not capable of recognising when someone is showing of, which is all that we're talking about here, nor that they're incapable of dealing with it in a grown-up way.

In reply to Andy Morley:
I'd love to agree with you. But 30+ people (typically recently inducted groups of new faces or folks struggling on V2) regularly moving areas when these guys arrive doesn't really suggest that to me. Sorry.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


Sounds like it could well be something specific to your wall rather than something you can generalise to the wider population of climbing-wall users.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


It's because I don't think clothing choice affects behaviour. My workplace brought in a casual dress code policy last year and it hasn't had an effect on people's professionalism or work ethic, they're just professional and hard working in jeans instead of a suit.


I'm not sure that the uniform effects have much academic backing. AFAIK the idea that wearing a school uniform improves behaviour and grades seems to have little evidence to support it. With the groups you're discussing, personally I suspect their affirmation and approval would come from their similarity in age, climbing standard and goals/motivations (and probably a sense of superiority that they're better than others) and the toplessness is purely incidental. Hence I don't think that making them stick a top on would affect the group behaviour.

In reply to pebbles:

It's as topless as it's legal/practical to be at an indoor wall! Any less clothing and I'm pretty sure I'd be kicked out (not to mention ending up with a couple of black eyes from the bouncing).

In reply to climbingpixie:
Thanks for the reply

To be clear as far as uniform effect goes I'm not referring to the effect of adolescents at school wearing a uniform. More the effect we see from giving someone a specific uniform and the feeling of authority they achieve. I was heading down the Milgram or Bickman routes for which there is a fair chunk of academic backing.

I'd postulate that topless climbing is often associated with the talented. And I'd suggest many would subconsciously consider the talented to be authoritative in a bouldering wall environment. Therefore I'd suggest that someone who maybe wants to feel authoritative is able to achieve this by taking their top off (nb, not all who take their top off want to feel authoritative). For those who do... I'd say it's very effective (a la Milgram, a la Bickman). Why do these people want to feel authoritative? I'd suggest it's a matter of insecurity. Now, we know that insecurity can push a need to shout about achievement... so they appear to tie together and lead to egotistical topless climber. This is further enforced when we combine it with the group-think idea that we gain confidence in conforming to a group. As a group they are greater than the sum of their individual parts. Hence.... the intimidation problem with beginners.

I'd then postulate that (aside from temperature) most of the difference between our obnoxious guys and guys just wanting to get on with their climbing without a top can be attributed to differing levels of security. Which to me doesn't seem a ridiculous proposition. And that's why I wondered if a top off ban would calm the obnoxious guys by diminishing the authoritative feeling and then the attached group think. (Obviously this is draconian however was meant to illustrate a point.)

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree!

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I am the perfect target for this type of climber (If he even exists). I dont climb much, i walk around the walls in my shirt and trousers whilst spotting for my daughter. I really do not look as though i belong at a climbing wall at all.

I have never seen anyone acting like the manner described in the OP wether they be wearing a vest, a sports bra or showing off their nipple piercings. Even the testosterone filled lads who i described in my earlier post have ALWAYS acted in a friendly manner. They are respectful, helpfull and in some cases bloody good climbers to watch and learn. I cant even remember hearing them swear.

If i were to ever experience feeling uncomfortable at the wall for a similar reason to yours then i would either confront it head on or i would talk to the wall manager. No way in gods earth would i move because someone was being a bit noisy.

In reply to ad111:
Sweat in terms of the liquid we perspire is sterile but sweat in terms of what drips from your skin is certainly not as it picks up bacteria from the skin and this is the main reason people can stink from sweat. I will repeat for the nth tiime I'm not fussed with the extra hygene problems this creates or topless climbing in general. So if you want to climb topless and admit you like to do that, thats thats fine by me but please don't pretent its cooler than a vest or sterile or doesn't piss some wall users off who's views you are happy to ignore.

In reply to Offwidth:

Some people are far too hung up about hygiene. Nobody ever used the scout group's old whillans harness after I abseiled naked in it...

In reply to Clarence:

best post yet!

In reply to climbingpixie:

Now giggling helplessly at the image of my local climbing wall overrun by naked climbers. Reaching for brain bleach.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


IMHO, you're not just barking up the wrong tree, you're barking. What you have written is the most extraordinary load of cobblers, dressed up as something quasi-intellectual. Live and let live, I say, and let's get rid of this total (puritan) hang-up about people revealing a bit of flesh. How people behave is a complete different matter, and has nothing to do with how they are dressed.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
I avoid full rooms like the plague. I'm not a bad climber but am shy and lack confidence. People shouting across at others creates a huge distraction and I apologise for not reading all of the replies to this thread!

It's not so much as top on; but engage brain. I make no odds of what folk wear or them shouting at themselves or the belayer - innane comments break through concentration far more

In reply to Thelittlesthobo:


Generally speaking, real world climbing seems so much better than stuff I read about online - I just got back from my third indoor outing within the last 7 days and it's all been really good fun. It sounds to me as if the wall described in the OP and subsequent posts has lots of training going on. Maybe whoever is training the sad-faced 30 people described above is just missing something out from their curriculum. If you're not intimidated at some stage by something, whether it's other people or by routes or the general environment, then you're probably not getting out enough. Their instructor must have failed to prepare them for that eventuality. Slight change in the syllabus, job-done.

One reason I think climbing is so beneficial is that it teaches me to deal with failure. If you can't get up something, you have to address that, and there are no excuses, no confusing factors or anything else but the stark reality, and that's good because you have to face it. If you involve psychological theories that creates 'victims' because that's what certain kinds of psychologist tend to do in order to give themselves a role, then suddenly you're obscuring that benefit by providing people with something or someone else to blame if they can't do stuff. I don't see how that can benefit anyone.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

Does going topless make you a Dick? Is dickishness related to amount of flesh unveiled? Can you provide any correlation between number of T-shirts worn and suitable behaviour?

If someone is being a plonker, they're a plonker, top or no top. At the beach, the pool, the crag, the park or the wall, it's all the same. Live with it and let it lie.

Andy F

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

This topic's been done a few times on here before, last time I remember it going down the path of why tits are perceived as a bit rude, and thus not accepted on display at the wall.

I don't think there's anything wrong with someone taking their shirt off when they're training, but I think it's more polite to put it back while you're standing around - it's a public, confined place, and that's the normal code that people are happy with (e.g. in shops, bars, etc, even when it's hot). A group of topless, muscly lads climbing the hard problems *does* intimidate people, and gives a wall a more macho atmosphere that not everyone appreciates. The shirts being off isn't the be all and end all of it, but it's a contributing factor. Should rules be made about it? Just a call for the management which has pros and cons. I used to go to a wall that had a tops on policy, and it was a nice, friendly wall which was very family friendly but still had good bouldering and attracted hard climbers. They did shut down, but I don't think it was the tops-on that did it. I don't think the policy was an affront to people's freedom, just that the managers felt it made for a better feel to the place, and I can see why.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

For me, this thread isn't about topless climbing it's about the effect other people have on my climbing. For people who manage walls, it ought to also be about how to run their businesses better, but on either side, everything I've read here tells me that people who wag their fingers about it are probably as irritating as topless shouty people, but that it's perfectly possible for everyone else to carry on regardless of either of those groups.

I usually climb with people who are better than me. Yes, it can be intimidating but it's good for me in many other ways. The key to making progress under these or any other circumstances is to understand the effects on you, yourself, to take ownership of those issues, you, yourself, and to do something about it, you yourself. Blame other people and you'll just write yourself an excuse note for never getting anywhere. Armed with these and other insights, I went to the bouldering wall and upped my game by one whole grade last night. Psychology is hugely important for performance but not the whingey victim-making kind.

In reply to Andy Morley:

I would be gobsmacked if you upped your game by a full grade in a single night. I'd lay long odds that all you did is climb something given a grade harder. This may or may not be a full grade harder, could be the same grade (as indoor grades are never very accurate in my experience) and any genuine success at a new grade will be based on slow gains in several areas that have come to fruition some time.

In reply to Offwidth:

You're a miserable bugger aren't you!

In reply to mark_wellin:

He's probably not wrong though. The grade range of most gyms when it comes to individual problems is pretty big. Stuff graded V4 indoors probably has some v3's and some v5's in it cause that's how you get people to progress. Morale plays a big part in it.

In reply to andy farnell:

I hope not. I have been known to climb topless and will do so again.


I have postulated there can be a link in this particular case.


No. That is why I posted. See my last post for details of why I think there can be in some cases a causal relationship.


Again, many people have said this. But it really has little to do with what I'm trying to get at with this thread.

In reply to mark_wellin:
No. In fact I really enjoy climbing and get on well with most climbers I know in person but since improvement requires honesty I have a low tolerance for clear bs on a public website from those who should know better. Its a real problem as see all sorts of bad practice indoors and its mainly because those who should be role models are actively or passively encouraging unrealistic gains, from efforts sometimes likely to injure, doing daft things like wearing the wrong shoes (too tight, technical and expensive). Outdoors this often translates into similar injury risk and sometimes rock damage due to obsessive flailing, aggressive brushing etc. I've been lucky to climb and work with many talented climbers including some as good as anyone in the UK when they were at their best. Due to way tendons strengthen climbing improvement is best done slow and steady with effort focussed on improvement on areas of weakness (dont chase grades, let them come to you as the improvements stack up) and no belief in magic bullets of which probably the most daft of all is the benefit of climbing topless (which to me is just a perfectly reasonable fashion choice, albeit sadly, some people, as Jon said, can't deal with seeing tits.).

In reply to Removed User:


Stuff graded V4 indoors is normally about V2-V3 in reality!

In reply to Offwidth:


Steps and plateaux. Still requires a key to unlock the next one though.

In reply to galpinos:

Indeed. Makes for fun times taking people outside for the first time when they think they can crush v4 and they get burned on the v1s, hehe.

In reply to galpinos:
Worst case I've climbed V5 indoors that was middling V0 (UK graded f4+). It must be one hell of a shock when these grade obsessed people trained indoors visit Font (some polished 2s will burn them there let alone V1). On the other hand if you use indoor grades as a very rough guide and enjoy bouldering movement and go to Font for the first time you will likely be looking at love at first sight.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Their lease on the building expired apparently.

In reply to Andy Morley:

There you go with more bs.. improvement is gradual, based on traffic or training (both best targetted at weaknesses) the only steps are the measuring tools. The only key like things are having the sense to seek and follow good advice and being honest with yourself.

In reply to Offwidth:

Your coming across as very jaded and bitter about this subject.
Sometimes it is about finding a key and making a big jump or improvement. Just because you haven't doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I know it has for me, in parallel with slow, steady progress.
When was the last time you improved by a grade?
Maybe the next grade would come by trying one of these BS magic bullet things and seeing how it goes?

In reply to Offwidth:


How many people stuck at a certain (usually fairly lowly) grade are seriously limited by the ultimate strength of their tendons? In my experience most could do far more with what nature gave them on any given day than they ever actually do, no need to change the machine, just use it better. All my biggest ticks have come from slowly, incrementally refining my solution to the problem, improving efficiency and changing my expectations not from getting stronger or pulling harder.

Topless climbing isn't purely a fashion decision. For some like me who sweat a *lot* when faced with even moderate exercise and temperate conditions it's an essential for staying cool and comfortable enough to function properly. If anyone can see my man-tits under all the sweat-matted fur they're welcome to be offended, that's their problem.

jk

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


I really liked that place [the Barn, Bingley if anyone was wondering]. It wasn't brilliant for training, but the problems were generally well set and technical - but most of all it was really chilled and friendly (and from what I can remember, the music didn't get my tits - which of course, weren't out).

In reply to Offwidth:


OK,

1. "Don't pretend being topless is cooler than wearing a vest" Are you joking? (I'm assuming you're talking temperature here as I'm not sure of the fashion implications)

2. "Climbing topless pisses off people" Maybe we should try to cut to the heart of the problem - why some people feel the need to link the way people dress to the way they act. Do you really feel that as soon as people put on or take off a shirt their behaviour changes? Does this happen to an extent with shorts and trousers? If I wear gloves will I become more conscientious?

3. I sweat mostly from my forehead and it sometimes drips off (yeah I know pretty disgusting but I can't help it), do you want me to wear a balaclava?

4. Case study: I went bouldering indoors yesterday and didn't wear a shirt (because I was washing all my clothes and climbing in a hoody is really hot). I climbed mostly by myself for a few hours had a nice chat with some people I met and calmly accepted that sometimes beginners who have just heard of dynoing might want to hog a few problems and shout excitedly about it because I like seeing people enjoying climbing. If I was wearing a shirt or they were not would things have been different?

5. I just read some more of your comments and I love grading arguments. I always climb far harder outdoors than indoors, I've climbed harder in Font than I have in the vast majority of climbing walls I've been to.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


I went there once, well set interesting problems and some good angles. My only real gripe was the horrendous lack of ventilation which meant you had to climb topless to stay cool. Except they had a top -on rule which meant you broiled in your own sweat.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

Out of interest, why didn't you dampen your shirt under a cold tap Andy? If you can't take it off, then that's pretty effective.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


Drippage on the holds is generally frowned upon...

Andy F

In reply to Offwidth:


Might be that way for you, but lots of people I know are well familiar with periods of going nowhere punctuated from time to time by breakthroughs.

In reply to andy farnell:

No no, I mean run it under a cold tap and then ring it out. My office has no window and the building is concrete with no A/C. So it absorbs heat and then keeps us hot in summer. Worse a week or two after very hot weather. I did this in July and it worked pretty well.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


It may work well if you are stationary in an office, but a wet t-shirt sticking to you as you're throwing shapes on the wall, probably not so good. I could wear a vest, but then I'd need to carry a can of wife-beater and start hurling abuse at everyone.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell:

So you use a modern sports vest designed for function in warm conditions. Any gain perceived in contrast to the best Sports Science data showing the opposite is going to be likely due to a placebo effect.

In reply to andy farnell:


Rather than letting it drip freely around you?

In reply to Andy Morley:

Examine those breakthroughs and it will be due to training the right aspects properly for once or being honest at last about weaknesses. For anyone who has done this already it's a lot of slow improvement through mainly hard work.

In reply to jkarran:

The key issue about tendons is most people new to climbing don't have good tendon development already. Muscle gains happen faster than tendon gains so pushing too fast too soon often leads to tendon injury. Improvements fall into many areas: power, power stamina, strength, stamina, technique, flexibility, focus/awareness, head and all improve with the right training practice (which in climbing can often be linked with the good fun to be had just climbing).

Clothing is very important in Sport and the Science I've seen shows the right vest helps in keeping cool. Its not just their problem its also the walls problem if lots of people feel that way (I disagree with such folk but the influence is real)

In reply to Offwidth:

Could you please link me to some of this technology that's better than being topless? I can't find it through Google, although tbh I'm getting a lot of retail sites from my searches.
All that I've found is stuff that says it wicks sweat away and allows it to evaporate and therefor cools you. Which just sounds like it's better than wearing non tech clothes but is just adding a step in the process over going topless.
Also, everything made tech is incredibly ugly. I'd rather be topless and mocked than spend £30 on a vest... And mocked.

In reply to Offwidth:


Placebo effect or not, remember that any gain could get you up a problem you've previously been failing on which is, ultimately, all that matters

As a matter of interest, have you got some links to the papers you refer to? It sounds interesting, but a quick search on pubmed only seems to bring up trials of pre-race ice vests/cooling vests in runners which doesn't seem particularly relevant to indoor bouldering.
Cheeers.

In reply to andy farnell:

But... you said earlier: "Except they had a top -on rule which meant you broiled in your own sweat. ". Surely the shirt will stick to you either way. I mean, I like feeling free when climbing as much as the next person but if you have to keep your top on as per the rules of the wall and heat is a problem... you may as well cool it down? No? Am I missing something?

Anyway- I actually think the difficulty of getting a sweaty shirt off afterwards is an argument for climbing topless. Dancing around essentially trying to peel yourself is a nightmare. I used to climb 100% topless at my home wall. I forgot this problem existed until I took up running after giving up climbing.

In reply to Aly:
Sorry I don't have time to do your research for you. It's usually based on wicking vest tops for all sorts of indoor sports in warm conditions (and yes often linked with commercial stuff); but performance drops caused by overheating due to poor clothing choice cant be tolerated in competitive sports. I agree if placebo works its OK to go with that, but its not good in science to call a placebo something its not.

...and for Mark, yes like all clothes they do cost money (which in your case now seems to be down to a money and fashion vs performance choice).

In reply to Offwidth:


If you've been doing it for 30 years, then maybe this approach works. I know a few very experienced trad climbers who use climbing walls as a gym and who take an approach that is perhaps similar to yours. However the climbing partner I'm listening to right now is less experienced but better trained and that person is urging me to push my limits and break out of that particular way of doing things. It seems to be paying dividends for me.

In reply to Andy Morley:

OK I'll bite... explain why are you not working weaknesses you have previously largely ignored and tell me how and where you have measured these dividends? I ask this as it sounds like you fit in my definition of someone who hasn't trained properly or been honest previously about working weaknesses.

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm often now in a position where I need to use hotel gyms to stay exercised. Usually they're WAY too hot, to the point where its almost impossible to sustain any kind of decent treadmill pace for much more than 5k, even with my 2 portable fans. I desperately want to take my vest off but know it will lead, and has led, to unpleasant confrontation. Even the best wicking materials simply don't work without airflow - instead the moisture collects and insulates, compounding the problem.
We climbers should count ourselves lucky that walls generally have adapted their behavioural standards from crags rather than from the prudish and certainly not sport-focused norms of indoor sport.

In reply to Offwidth:


I'll tell you next week as I've just booked a coaching session to help me get a view on these or similar questions. My main motivation to date has been to enjoy myself, have fun, socialise whatever but since quite a few of my climbing partners are more serious about it than me, I figured I had to start taking it seriously in order to keep up. I used to think that people who took stuff like this seriously only did so because they didn't have the stamina for proper partying, but that's a view that has changed over time. I guess that having worked in the past, in between more sedentary jobs, as a roofer, plasterer, scaffolder, what have you, I regarded all this sort of thing as something I got paid for as an incidental to the main trade where I invested the bulk of my learning investment. But with those of my climbing partners who are putting serious learning effort into outdoor stuff (uni degree kind of serious), they definitely talk in terms of learning steps and plateaux, as do most people in other domains who study the learning process.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:


No, you've been pretty clear what your point is. Just that some people have chosen not to take it on board, and have instead decided that you think climbing topless should be banned.

I'm sure that for some people, going topless is more than simply a practical issue; it's about exhibitionism (whether they realise it or not), and that exhibitionism is extended to being very loud about "how hard they're cranking", etc.

And I'm equally sure that the mentality of a group of topless young lads may well be different, as they ratchet up that 'shared state'; being topless is a little outside societal norms, and that can engender excitement, and this might be manifesting itself as being loud and a little obnoxious. Think stag night group, dressed in drag: being loud is a way of displaying that they know this is a bit odd, but they're doing it deliberately; avoiding attracting attention by deliberately attracting attention...

In reply to Offwidth:

There is no research to suggest wearing a wicking garment is better than being topless in regards to heat exchange. It's just better than other materials. If Google can't find it, it doesn't exist.


All clothes are fashion over performance. Otherwise we would either naked or in a beige onsie of varying thicknesses.

As for your training style and disdain for people try to shock their system by trying unusual things. I hope you like the grade you're at, because I recon you've been there for a while and you will continue to be there for the foreseeable future.

In reply to mark_wellin:

In fact google won't find most scientific research as its usually behind paywalls and using very specific language: you normally pick up the press releases and commercial ad stuff. There is some stuff I know of from Loughborough which seems to be saying the opposite of what I've been told by the experts I spoke to but that may relate to conditions that are very different to normal competition conditions for major indoor sport where research money is going into performance clothing. The body is really good at getting rid of heat so topless is never a bad choice indoors but in the end the issue isn't anything like important enough to justify going topless in indoor climbing (which is the main point I was trying to get over).

My personal training focuses on minimal periods of stamina prep for trad multi-pitch climbing holidays... I've always been an underperformer as I love lower grade trad as much as my food and drink. However if you want to play ad hominen my best onsights in recent years either match or are two grade off yours, speaking as an overweight man in my mid 50s. Being more of an adult academic, I'd say its perfectly possible to be very interested in training science without being any good myself.

In reply to Offwidth:


So given that you seem to acknowledge that tops-off makes sense from a performance, or at least comfort, point of view, exactly what else are you saying would be needed for that to be "important enough" to risk unsettling prudes with an entirely unfounded sense of decorum?

In reply to john arran:

I'd agrre but its not just prudes though: its religious and cultural sensibilities and on the other foot the climbing worlds odd intolerance to the less than perefct body.

In reply to Offwidth:

I think if climbers were to have religious or cultural problems with tops-off climbing it might have been raised by now. Or they're always free to mention it at any time. Failing that it sounds like trying to blame hypothetical others for your own unjustified prudishness.

In reply to Offwidth:

In fact the issue is very much important enough to warrant going topless. You clearly don't get that hot and/ or sweaty when climbing/ training. Some of us do. Top off is as important as chalking up before setting off for me otherwise I wouldn't get off the start holds before greasing off.

I wasn't really trying to deminiaturise your climbing achievements. Simply point out that what you say about training works for what you want to achieve, but it's balls for people looking to really progress and it's not helpful for you to say otherwise. Even if it is in the name of being well rounded and safe.

In reply to mark_wellin:
Has it been found that going topless definitely provide more than psychological help?

Deminiaturise sounds like it should describe making things bigger.

In reply to captain paranoia:


Why is it that us British make such a big thing out of 'showing orf'..? I think we should all spend more time in Italy.

In reply to john arran:

The people with those concerns usually won't be climbing indoors because of them.. as a simple example about 6% of the population of Sheffield are Muslim, what's the percentage of local climbers and how many of those are devout or female or both. I'm not convinced we should allow multi-culturalism or some sub-groups of feminism to force a change on all indoor wall dress codes but I'm not going to deny their concerns exists and have a right to be heard and may need to be catered for. I love climbing but its culture in the UK is very white and still too male. As for prudes, the worst I've seen are ironically topless noisy macho pricks making it publicly known that they cant deal with body difference like fatness or disability. If climbing was populated with topless climbers of all shapes and sizes I might be happier with the topless condition but I guess people dont sweat unless their body is beautiful (because otherwise it this was so important in climbing it would indicate we do have a problem in our culture).

In reply to Offwidth:
Fat people are too embarrassed to go topless in a climbing wall. So they should be.

In reply to mark_wellin:
Any advice I give comes largely based on stuff from those I know who made it to the to the top and/or wrote books or articles on it; incorporating research from similar sports and from seeing what works best for those on the way up. It has bugger all to do with my ability or my own training needs. I've never seen any evidence that climbing topless in training in a well ventilated area at room temperature is any different than a preference of wearing a lucky vest. There is some evidence (from the Loughborough centre) of benefits in hot humid environments (not common in indoor sport as it would risk heat exhaustion in athletes and plain daft for training any hard climbing movement).

In reply to abarro81:

Very true.... its pretty awful doing stuff that publicly shows up how childish some so called adult climbers can be. Us fatties can get our topless hits elsewhere without having to deal with the forced outing of the shamelessly infantile.

In reply to abarro81:


I asked upthread whether you'd laugh at someone fat with their top off at a climbing wall. You didn't respond to that. Then this pithy little gem. It's clear that you think yourself superior to other people at the wall because you're sufficiently honed to avoid any possible ridicule when climbing topless. -so unlike those lardy punters in their sweaty t-shirts.

And yet you wonder why people might get the impression that people who climb topless are just showing off?

In reply to Offwidth:


Any comment I make is based on my experience of being a hairy, hot, sweaty animal who's much more comfortable climbing shirt off whatever that shirt is made from, I have my own fur coat under it! Comfort and performance are different things. I make it to the top occasionally but don't write about it so I guess that's a +1 and -1 in the appeal to authority stakes :-P

jk

In reply to Offwidth:


So would you extend to crags your right-on "standing up for other people who haven't asked for it" helpfulness (or is it still just personal prudishness in search of a more credible justification?) Go to Malham or Stanage on a warm day and there will be dozens of folk climbing topless. My how that must offend you...sorry, my how that must be putting off people from other cultures from getting into climbing.

Like I said earlier, climbing walls have adopted their behavioural norms from crags, not from the po-faced, cap-wearing officials of indoor sports centres and gyms. And rightly so in my opinion.

There's nothing at all wrong with encouraging people of all backgrounds and genders if they have an interest in climbing, but there's something not right about changing the nature of climbing for everyone else specifically to achieve that. In Iran the female climbers have to train and compete behind closed doors with no males present. In quite a few other countries gyms are segregated so as to achieve your kind of desire for increased participation while maintaining dress codes that are usually justified by religion. Your suggestion is one small but definite step in that direction, and in my view an entirely wrong one for our culture to embrace.

I don't hear a clamour from girls and women for lads to keep tops on while climbing, so it appears not to be a gender issue. So if any people see their religion as a barrier to involvement in climbing then that's really a lifestyle choice on their part and not something I think we should be getting worried about.

In reply to jkarran:

Why not try waxing?

Anyone else remember The Thing character who decided anything extraneous to climbing success should be removed.

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm not exactly the waxing sort.
jk

Extremely true.... its really dreadful doing stuff that openly shows up how whimsical some purported grown-up climbers can be. Us fatties can get our topless hits somewhere else without dealing with the constrained trip of the improperly infantile.

In reply to john arran:

I'm offended by many things but never naked or part naked bodies. Im just as disgusted by the treatment of women climbers in Iran but I dont see such things as black or white: I think we can improve participation and reduce feelings of intimidation without needing to compromise too much. Rules for some fixed sessions in gyms and pools have claimed to help improve things for minority groups and women.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:
If the perceived potential for body sweat is a health hazard, what about the actual sweat, worn off skin, and occasionally flaps of skin and blood from the hands?

Do you climb indoors in the shoes you climb in outdoors? Do you wear them to walk into the Gents?

Climbing is a physically demanding sport.
Outdoors I've accidentally stuck my hands in all sorts. I've inhaled a wasp while struggling over a crux. You have an immune system.
I don't think someone taking their top off is going to cause you a health risk.
Climbing isn't an activity Which is compatible with being prissy.

However, if someone is being a bellend down the wall, tell them, or tell the staff, or keep away, or come back later.
No point being passive-aggressive about it. No point being upset. Deal with it or remove yourself from the situation.
They may have no idea they are causing a problem?

In reply to john arran:





V well put.

This thread is very odd in that it shows some very strange, old-fashioned, Victorian attitudes that I thought we'd got rid of decades ago. The climbing world has always - traditionally - been very liberal and tolerant, so it's rather depressing to see some of these strange, prudish arguments resurfacing in 2015. The strangest part of it for me is that, in all the time I used climbing walls, on hundreds of occasions from c. 1983-98, I never recall seeing a single case of 'topless noisy macho pricks'. I think this may even now be sheer invention ... or has the climbing world really gone backwards in this way ??

In reply to john arran:

I should add that it was always the norm (in the time span I referred to) for a lot of climbers, probably nearly 50%?, including myself when it was hot, to climb topless on climbing walls (not just guys, but women very scantily clad). And I just don't remember it being the slightest issue. I remember, towards the end of that period, going to one wall - I can't remember where it was - and being told we must keep our shirts on. And it feeling very odd, stuff, and quite constricting, but we complied.

One of the joys of climbing walls, particularly in London after work, was their sheer feeling of liberation.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


The UK's first bouldering only walls opened in the mid-late 2000s.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

You've lost me. What's that got to do with it? Practically every climbing wall I ever remember going to had a big bouldering section anyway. Usually in the same big room/hall.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

It's a fair cop govner you got me bang to rights. I got away with my feminist academic cover for such a long time and of course its been a clever fiction I was perpetrating that climbing has ever had any gender or minorities issues or boorish machismo to unfairly attack a group who have managed to form a liberal paradise unprecedented since the ancient greeks.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

If you haven't spent time in the big new bouldering centres, you're bound to be lost on this topic. A big proportion of people there come for different reasons to a climbing wall with lead routes: people who only do indoor bouldering and no other form of climbing. It can feel like some sort of combination of a gym and a nightclub - especially if there's music on that's been made for nightclubs (house and techno mixes, specifically). Pretty much everyone's student-aged, so there's a lot of fashion being displayed: beards, haircuts, tattoos, etc...

I think it was my namesake the american satirist who described (US) climbing walls as "meat markets for granola hipsters".

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Thanks for telling me about this weird scene. It all sounds very sad. So often in the modern world, as almost everything is marching on and continually getting better, we find retrogressive pockets of inanity like this. It's as if some people's critical faculties have weakened as society as become more affluent.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

It's much like anything that's a bit culty, e.g. music festivals. Once people find out how much fun it is, they get bigger and flashier, and while that increases the quality in many respects, it totally changes the character as the scene becomes more commercial and mainstream. Open to more people, a good thing...but the oldies who liked things just the way they were will not approve!

In reply to Offwidth:

You appear throughout to be trying to shift narrative onto perceived issues of cultural or social balance.

Why?

Do you take similar umbrage that there aren't enough women of colour in Nordic skiing?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:


I think it's so sad that you feel that way. Weren't you ever young? I go to all kinds of different wall and get chatting to all kinds of different people. I've never personally come across anyone objectionable and though they may seem 'different' from my group of friends, once I get talking to them which sometimes happens when just a couple of us go alone, people can be really friendly and really helpful in some instances, as in sharing different perspectives and that sort of thing. Sometimes it can take a bit of conscious effort to be more tolerant but I'd say it's effort well spent.

In reply to Andy Morley:

Err... did you read anything I said before here? About the tolerant climbing world that I knew in the past, that made no distinctions between anyone, and was a lot more liberal? Where I talked about my attitudes when I was young?

Please read what someone says more carefully in future, before angrily spouting more or less their own views back at them ...without apparently realising it. )

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

Sorry, I was replying indirectly to Jon Stewart, whose point of view you were endorsing - about the 'granola hipsters'. I guess you were just 'standing in the way' but you did seem to be agreeing with him.

I climb once a week at one of the 'big new bouldering centers' that he appears to be referring to. I also climb once a week at a mixed wall that has a bouldering section frequented by some of the same people who go to the bouldering center, but it also has a bunch of top-rope/ lead climbers who climb at another more old-school wall that I also use. Though a lot of the people at the bouldering center I go to look student-age, actually many of them (probably the majority by a big margin) are not students.

The more I read this thread, the more it seems to me that it's about something that is probably highly specific to one particular London climbing wall. That seems to provide a hook from which other people can hang all sorts of other seemingly related bugbears and dislikes that really might not have much general relevance, except for people who share the common experience of enjoying being somewhat grouchy!

In reply to Andy Morley:

Yes, it bears little resemblance to any situation I remember on any climbing wall in the past.

In reply to Offwidth:
The right technical clothing might well help with cooling in endurance sports where the body is generating a huge amount of waste heat, but I suspect that doesn't really apply to bouldering, and if it did the cotton teeshirts normally worn by climbers indoors wouldn't be the right tool for the job.

Otoh, what does a cotton climbing teeshirt weigh? ... weighs cotton climbing teeshirt ... 150 grammes. That's 150 grammes of non-essential weight that might make a difference to somebody actually bouldering *hard*. There's a blog by one of the beastmaker lads that I recall reading, where he said if you can afford to carry a chalkbag then it can't be properly difficult. Not that I'm suggesting for a moment that this applies to either me or the average topless youth at a wall.

In reply to john arran:


In general I strongly agree with you here. However, I also remember that at Broughton in the 90s we used to get changed at the foot of the wall, because that's what we did at the crag, even though we were in a sports centre that (probably, I assume) had perfectly good changing rooms. Because "there's no changing room at the crag". In hindsight that was maybe carrying our cultural/behavioural norms unnecessarily far.

Climbing is a physically demanding game.
Outside I've incidentally put my hands in different kinds. I've breathed in a wasp while battling over an essence. You have a resistant framework. I don't think somebody taking their top off is going to bring about you a well being danger.Climbing isn't an action Which is good with being snobby.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


Must have been imagining my twice a week sessions at the Berghaus bouldering wall in Newcastle circa 1991 then. Damn!

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Berghaus Wall open in 1990 in Newcastle. It wasn't the first bouldering wall.

In reply to ashton23:



Wtf?

In reply to SiGregory:


He/she's saying "get a grip".

In reply to AlanLittle:
Weight won't have been dealt with as is wasn't climbing research and cotton holds water making it heavier...there are also issues of movement especially with damp cotton.

My main objection here has been the very common assertion that climbing without a top in a wall makes a big difference because it keeps the climber cooler.. I just don't believe this from what I know of research unless the wall conditions are unfit for climbing hard. I acknowledge there are lots of other better reasons why topless could be preferred. I do think there is a small correlation between tops off and boorish behaviour but thats the fault of the people, not the lack of a top. I know a minority of climbers feel intimidated by tops off and some have complained and led to changes in some wall policy (I regret this happens, but would rather we limit tops off a bit than exclude such folk).

My experience at walls from the late 80s is the vast majority of people are lovely, but agressive male behaviour is a problem at times with the worst being someone who was punched by a stranger at the Foundry a few years back (police involved) and the odd threat of violence and numerous grumbles, lots of sexist nonsense and some plain nastiness to heavier climbers. It's all a bit like normal life but generally better. I've also know climbers from prettty much any common political position, religion or life philosophy.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I think you need to differentiate between topless climbers and poseurs. Some climb topless at walls in an effort to feel more comfortable in the stifling heat. This has nothing to do with shouting across the room, showing off, and generally making an arse of oneself.

In reply to stp:


There's a middle ground, though, which is to do with being aware of how you are making others feel. Circumstances alter cases, and it depends on who is around you. Whether or not it's appropriate to go topless, at the wall or anywhere else for that matter, is a subtle judgement call - unless one is completely lacking in sensitivity.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I think one point that I don't think has come up is local or regional differences surrounding posing. I only became aware of this when climbing with someone who had moved from London to Sheffield last year. For her there was a clear difference in the amount of poseurs at the walls in these areas. It was much bigger issue in London than in Sheffield.

Not sure what the reasons are. Something to with group psychology at certain walls perhaps? Maybe the leading climbers in Sheffield are an older, more mature bunch and younger climbers take their cues from these people? Who knows? Whatever the reason its interesting that such differences exist in different areas.

In reply to bpmclimb:


Or maybe we don't want to modify how we dress just to satisfy someone else's prudishness? After all if someone can cope with seeing a man's torso naked at a swimming pool why should that be off putting at a climbing wall or anywhere else?

What are the norms for a climbing wall? I suppose they're defined by how we act. By not wearing a top we are reinforcing the notion that this is acceptable, normal.

I suppose women are complying to society's prudishness by always having to have a top on. Is that just sexism?

In reply to Andy Morley:


Isn't that the point?

In reply to stp:


In general I set a higher value on being considerate than on sticking up for my rights. If I detect that I'm making anyone uncomfortable, I will usually make the necessary compromise (in my better moments, anyway), even if I privately think that they're being a bit prudish. But that's just me - it takes all sorts, as they say.

In reply to stp:


Elsewhere they're not wearing speedos to draw the eyes away from the top half

In reply to nufkin:

I split the arse out of my shorts last time I went bouldering. Nobody seemed to give a toss. Although I did swap to my jeans when I noticed.

In reply to Willi Crater:


Clearly ahead of its time. Did it also forge the shirt off beanie on look?

In reply to ashton23:

Given that looks like a bot took SiGregory's post, cut it down and ran it through a thesaurus, are you a real person ashton23? Or are you a bot (in which case you obviously lack the consciousness to answer) just trying to get out of 'learner' status on this and probably other forums for nefarious purposes?

In reply to Willi Crater:


Hahaha!

Same with at Broughton, Salford.
I was something like member No 4 back in the early 90s.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

Or maybe just back from a heavy Friday night... he is a young climber afterall.

In reply to andrewmcleod:

It's a bot, pretty normal for them to use a #namenumber username. There was another I reported last week doing exactly the same.

In reply to Removed User:

Gone now. Thanks Mods.

In reply to A Longleat Boulderer:

I think that climbing walls could just be in line to be the next target for a Femen protest:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2015/sep/16/femen-protesters-women-i...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1010622/Femen-stage-topless-pro...