UKC

I find if my belayer is chatting with other people incredibly distracting, particularly when closer to the ground. I am not meaning a quick hello, I have seen eye contact full conversations.

Indoor walls are particularly bad for this, I have on occasion stopped climbing and looked down, and the conversation is flowing, and after a minute or two, they look up, and give a little embarrassed murmur.

But here is the rub, it is made out that I am a bit odd wanting full attention.

I tend to think belay glasses are a good idea, as it keeps the belayer focused. I also wonder if for indoor walls there should be an area marked on the floor for belaying, and people should just not speak to belayers in this zone.

Or, am I too sensitive a soul, and a discussion of helicopters on treadmills whilst belaying me is OK.

Personally, I think the belayer being attentive, is more important than choice of belay device.

I don't think you're being unreasonable.

I got pulled up for chatting while belaying at a sport crag in France. Maybe because I came from a trad/winter background where a lot of the time you can't actually see your partner I was happy doing it on feel, but I took the point. I'd done very little sport and indoor.

I used to have a climbing partner whose belaying ritual was to start rolling a tab the moment he had me on belay, I didn't like that. Worst was a partner who habitually texted while belaying and said, "It's not like you're going to fall," when I raised this. It wasn't a lasting partnership.

There's a balance to be struck. Belaying is very much like driving a car. For both you are responsible for other people's safety so you need to be able to react well if something happens.

I'd say holding a conversation while doing either is fine in principle.

Taking your eye off the road/leader is something you should only be doing when it's safe to do so. For driving this means hardly at all unless the car is stationary. For belaying it's not as simple as that, though some would argue that it is. We know from many routes that it's possible to give a safe belay while out of sight of the leader, as long as you're actively controlling the slack and are ready to hold a fall at any time. Depending on the situation and the experience/competence of the belayer, this means that it could be safe to do various other simple tasks while belaying, including ones that don't require keeping a permanent eye on the leader (such as untangling a rope, perhaps).

There are certainly lines that should never be crossed, such as letting go of an ATC to do something else. But such hard and fast rules that apply to all climbers in all situations aren't easy to define, as there are so many cases which depend on the specifics of the situation or of the people involved.

The main consideration should be that you are belaying in a way that you are sure is safe and that the leader finds acceptable. Leading routes can be stressful, and having the visual or audible reassurance that your belayer is paying attention, even if it may not actually be any safer in practice, can make the difference between a positive and a negative climbing experience. It's up to the belayer to make sure that their actions or behaviour doesn't negatively affect the leader's experience.

I agree with what John said. Context is important. Fundamentally don't let go of the rope .

Belaying a bold trad climb with deck out potential = total focus.

Belaying a vertical Yosemite aid crack = podcast playing, lying down on a portaledge, eyes closed.

When I was first introduced to climbing years ago, the guy who I climbed with would do exactly this and stand chatting to people paying no attention to me climbing. I packed it in in the end as I couldn't concentrate while having to keep checking he was actually watching me....and there's the story of why I spent the first six years of my climbing life bouldering!

Agree with the car analogy. As a semi related anecdote, I was driving to the wall (as it happens) the other night and pulling onto the ring road via a slip road. There was a car ahead of me on the slip road but quite far off. It wasn’t busy. It WAS dark and pissing wet, I was accelerating to match the traffic speed and looked at my blind spot as I’ve done about a million times in my life. All good.. all normal, all boring. 

Then, while I had my head turned, the car in front on the slip road did a full emergency stop and skidded half into the ring road. I hear the tyres before I saw and ended up stopping about 3 feet from his drivers door.

It gave me a wake up. Even if you’re doing everything right and you’ve done it a million times, shit happens. And sometimes you need to react. If I’d been chatting to someone in the car (which I do) that might have made 3 feet difference. Or 30..

There is a big difference between an experienced and skilful belayer and a shite one. I'm quite happy with the type who always catches falls nicely, always gives the rope seamlessly, and never leaves you with more risk than you choose yourself. I am completely unbothered by how they look to people below.

It is often difficult to tell the difference between a good, experienced belayer and a complacent one (before a fall). It's just that one will immediately prioritise the climber and instantly turn from a chatting, sandwich munching slouch to graceful, skilful top belayer and the other will be pulled off their feet, drop the catch and be caught totally unawares etc etc

Looking casual is not necessarily an indicator of being a shit belayer.

Looking attentive is not necessarily an indicator of being a good belayer.

As for belay glasses - well that's a skill in itself. While I use them to save my neck I see people tripping over, failing to find the rope, getting distracted while they glasses slide down their nose due to them all the time.  They are not a magic attention focusing bullet.

You can't distract a good belayer easily because they will apportion their attention appropriately at all times. If that means they can chat while belaying I'm happy with that.

In reply to GracefulM1racle:

I'm calling 'bot here!

I agree with all of that, though it's never quite as simple in practice. Have you ever been following a car at the same speed on a dual carriageway, when it slows for no apparent reason, then when overtaking it you see that the driver is on their phone? It's happened to me quite a lot. What this shows (among other things!) is that when distracted, we tend automatically to compensate (at least partially) by giving ourselves a greater margin for error - in this case by slowing down. I suspect this won't come close to compensating fully for the lack of attention people show when they're driving with a phone to their ear, but in your case, were you not to have been alone and with undivided attention, you may well have been driving that bit slower and keeping that bit further back from other vehicles. Whether that would actually have been the case and whether it would have made enough difference is, of course, impossible to know. That's the problem with hypotheticals!

I remember the jokes about belaying through sunroofs (and the sun roofs) on walk in challenged crags.  Add texting to that scenario...

Serious topic however, the texting while belaying thing was horrifying.  

It's quite possible that he was paying attention - top rope belaying can be done very easily by feel (all it is for a novice climber is a constant process of "is the rope loose?  If so take it in, and keep hold of the dead rope with your hand down if you're not doing so"), though belaying a leader takes rather more attention to do it well.

I agree with the analogies of driving a car - both are safety critical things where holding a conversation with someone sat next to you doesn't really do any harm (much less so holding one on a phone where the person on the other end can't see a hazard and thus you feel pressured not just to ignore them for a bit).

However, as I mentioned on another thread recently, belaying is a partnership - if a climber isn't happy with their belayer they need to raise the issue with them and have a sensible discussion.  A nervous climber may prefer the belayer not to chat to others even if they wouldn't be unsafe by doing so.  In the end if after such a conversation the climber isn't happy, whether the reason is a sensible one or not, they shouldn't let that person belay them.

I'm with you on this one particularly if I'm climbing close to my limit. I don't want any distractions even if my belayer is still focused on me.

I was once trying a particularly committing move (for me) and there was a pair talking loudly near by, not to me or my belayer but it was so distracting I couldn't make the move and abandoned the attempt

Totally agree. 

When you are belaying a lead climber (trad, winter, sport, indoors) you should have all you attention on the lead climber. 

A casual hello is fine but beyond that it is irresponsible to the point of negligence if you are not paying attention.

I cannot believe this is even a discussion.  

I'd say the only conversation needed is with the leader. They are up there maybe having an intense/trouser filling experience, the conversation can be very funny and unguarded or of course they more likely will want you to stfu.... At the very least an occasional 'get summat in lad', or 'what's it like' should suffice.

I used to teach climbing and browsing to young adult groups at a local wall. Once they had grasped the basics and become relatively competent, they would start to happily belay while talking to others on the group. I would wander round and initiate a conversation by looking at their belting and saying

' Sorry to interrupt your chat, but what's that you've got in your hands?'

After a puzzled look at me, they'd usually reply

' A rope and the belay device '

I'd look up and say

' No. It's your leader's life '

The conversation generally ended there. Levels of focus tended to improve thereafter. 

If you don't trust him/her; climb with someone else.

That's my view, if people want a coffee and a chat, let's go, fine by me. But when I am leading, it's all about me, when someone else is, it's all about them.

This issue mainly occurs sport climbing, and stops me falling off, which is what i should be doing, no watch me warnings, totally unannounced falls.

Trad is different, often out of sight, and the tricky bit is more obvious.

Personally, for me there's a balance. Eyes on the leader at all times (certainly outdoors - assuming they are in sight). Focus on the leader at all times. But a chat doesn't normally bother me. If I'm leading I have said 'you need to watch me here' if I'm feeling the pressure. If belaying, I've told people I can't talk as I need to focus. It all comes down to trust.

We got asked to 'talk about the football' after a somewhat involved discussion between me (belaying) and the leader on a sport route about the finer aspects of analysing metabolomic data. We were both happy (and focussed) enough. If the leader goes quiet then keep quiet yourself.

I was a lot further away from the car in front than is typical. In heavier traffic someone would have pulled into the gap in front of me. And I was accelerating up to dual carriageway speed so I don’t think I’d have been going slower in other circumstances.

that was the shocking thing. I’m almost never in such favourable conditions (save the wet road) and it was close. Too close.

But you can’t leave more space in practice because 90% of the time, if you do, some wazzock drives in it.

with belaying though, you have complete control. Even if it involves ignoring people or telling them to F off.

I find I can do that while driving too, though I suspect (and secretly hope) that they can't hear me!

You can ALWAYS tell someone's on their phone, they weave all over the place.

However, talking to someone next to you who can see road (or belaying) conditions is totally different from talking on a phone.

Easiest just to say 'watch me' as you make a tricky move so your partner is more aware9 at a critical time. Also until the 2nd clip pay special attention, as a deck fall is possible. ie. if somebody is fumbling to make a clip, or moving on small slopers.

Third clip really.

This only works if they can hear and they're watching

I agree to a certain extent, but I feel OK about my belayer talking if I'm in a comfortable position. If it starts to bother me, a 'watch me here' brings attention back.

I think that watching is much more important than talking or not talking. Can you talk whilst given full visual attention to the climber you're belaying? Some can, some can't. Some people have to look at the person they're talking to - that's not good. I've seen several reports of falls at walls where the cause of belaying failure was looking elsewhere at the crucial moment. But if someone, like the OP, is unsettled by their belayer talking, the belayer just shouldn't do it. 

Regarding the wall, yes I think you probably are, it depends on the experience of the belayer, particularly with holding falls. I see many climbers at the wall never falling and hence their belayers won't be practiced at holding falls. Taking a fall or two, high up with no risk of injury without announcing it to your belayer will keep them alert to the possibility. Never falling off just encourages complacency.

Talking or not talking when belaying is a pretty minor consideration in my book.

If this happens, let go of the wall. 

If they take the catch in their stride then they are competent enough to be safe holding a conversation while belaying. 

If they give you a hard catch, or get flustered by having to take the catch, then they are not competent to be doing so.

Either way, they *will* keep more of an eye on you when belaying in future.

Playing mind games with your belayer (the person responsible for keeping you alive) is surely questionable behaviour with no positive outcome. Also, one day you'll do this to someone who truly isn't paying attention and not using a Grigri or similar, and then you will deck.

If you're not happy with how they belay, use your words.

A demonstration is worth a thousand words.

The positive outcome is you can trust your belayer to be attentive in future.

The belayers job is to catch you if you fall off at any time. If they're not ready to hold your fall, they're not ready to hold a slip, or a broken hold. A decent belayers should be able to hold your fall regardless of the device they are using or the conversation they are having. If they're not capable of doing that I'd rather find out when I'm looking down and ready to deal with the consequences than when I've slipped and am expecting a nice catch.

If I start sounding like Martina Navratilova on Centre Court, then it's time for my belayer to pay attention.

Dear Godwin

Could you not wear ear plugs / defenders whilst leading at the climbing wall to cut out the chatter and gossip from attentive belayer(s).

Albert 

On many occasions I've climbed multi-pitch trad and sport in a three. I can't think of any pitch when the two of us not on lead have sat there for half an hour or so in silence. Expecting this in such a (not particularly uncommon) situation seems unrealistic and unnatural. In fact, it would rather spoil the day out. I'd be very concerned about climbing with a partner who was so nervous or easily distracted that they wanted this except after a "watch me here" or equivalent.

And if they drop you completely, you’ll have learnt a lesson, the hard way.

The belayers job is to belay the climber. If the climbwr doesn't like the belayer talking while they're doing that job then they shouldn't. 

It doesnt matter if the belayer is great and can chat away and do an oil painting while they're belaying; if the climber doesn't want them doing that then they shouldn't. 

Climbing is reciprocal and belaying is just the job while your partner has the fun.

I absolutely hate my belayer chatting. I will stop climbing if they do and not move until I have their attention. I basically stopped rope climbing inside because of this.

If your belayer doesn't respect your wishes then get a new one because there are plenty out there who will. 

Presumably I'm missing something, because these two paragraphs do seem to be rather at odds with each other. Why take the nuclear option of stopping roped climbing indoors? Why not simply follow your own advice and get a new belayer?

I hope you're quick because I'd be annoyed if I had to belay someone in silence while they're projecting/working away

I find it far too enclosed and stressful as an environment (always super busy). Everyone always chatting away and too complacent. I've seen good belayers turn to poor belayers in that environment. 

It’s simply a matter of respect for your climbing partner as well as a safety thing. Don’t talk when belaying and don’t try to engage belayers in conversation. Simple. Lots of other opportunities to chat and socialise at the wall between climbs

In my experience lead walls are more dangerous than climbing outside - false sense of security, very close proximity to other belayers, too much chat (me guilty), inexperienced belaying (often too far out for  2nd and 3rd bolts) and loud music all contribute. In fifty years it’s the only place where I’ve failed to re thread my figure of 8 - too many distractions including me chatting - fortunately my belayer was keeping it snug so the rope fell away after just a couple of metres - very sobering though.

It's not for the faint hearted, that's for sure.

For me, the risk of the one off event is less than the risk of continuing to put my life in the hands of someone I'm not sure of.

I place high value in being 100% confident in my belayer so that I can climb with freedom, and not think about the belayer until I reach the chains or fall off.

Nobody has dropped me yet, and some of my best belaytionships went through this test, when otherwise I'd probably have looked for other climbing partners.

Blimey! I'd no idea she even climbed. Was it noisy? Is there a video?

Well that is good to know, and if they ever do, you can have the comfort of receiving a Darwin award. All clouds have a silver lining.

I think that experienced climbers can walk and chew gum simultaneously. “Watch me here” seems to be out of fashion, too.

Personally,  I get far more worried when belayers stand too far out from the wall/crag, so that an unannounced fall pulls them off balance. Surely it’s not good practice when belayers stand, say, 3 metres out largely because it’s easier on their neck. Belay glasses are not just a comfort thing.

This more in the context of Sport climbing, where you should be falling off, in fact I would say I see far too few people falling off at climbing walls. Trad climbers tend to be rubbish at falling off, consequently they are often not used to taking out of the blue falls, they expect some whimpering and watch mess. 

Yes, they should stand close in, to avoid smashing into the wall, or ripping gear, but that's another topic.

If death is a realistic prospect, rather than a few bruises a hospital visit, it's probably not the time to do it.

Edit: a better time is when you'll land on them 😉

I thought you were about to turn Swiss Tony for a moment there?

Back to belaying, according to Petzl, using the belay device correctly is listed before paying attention, but lacking either are listed as bad belaying 

https://youtu.be/V9hsWjA3SmU?si=X8795d5H8jckXIku

I don't like my belayer chatting.. End of. Over the years I have just cut down on who I will climb with!

Stop doing that. 

Pondering this on a Sunday morning, reminds me of how I and other veterans in my climbing club like to reminisce about some epic parties in the club's annals. Inevitably, a wild Saturday night party would be followed by bleary-eyed hungover climbing on a Sunday morning. On such mornings, a little idle chat drifting up from one's belayer was useful reassurance they hadn't fallen asleep.

OK, mum.

"I've got a move here, can you stop f*****g talking please?" usually does the job.

E

I posted this a few years ago.

My GF was leading a climb when the words "you need a combi boiler mate" floated up the crag. Her belayer was on his mobile. 

Last time she ever climbed with him.  Enough said.

Deal with the consequences? Good luck with that 

The ones who talk are not too much of a problem

It's the ones who express themselves through the medium of mime who are the worry.