/ ARTICLE: Climbers Against D*ck Pics - Athletes & Social Media Abuse

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UKC Articles - on 17 Apr 2019

Dick pixellated.As the climbing community grows, are climbers receiving more online abuse? How do experiences of abuse differ between men and women? An Instagram account Climbers Against Dick Pics (@chossyDMs) prompts Natalie Berry to investigate the harassment faced by climbing athletes online.

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4
Pefa on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

I think that is probably far and away the best article I have read on Ukc. Thanks Natalie Berry.

It's very encouraging to see that subtle online forms of aggressive sexism and such like are being taken seriously and hopefully stamped out. 

Post edited at 12:16
3
Gambit - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Many thanks, read this on my lunchtime at work. It is a difficult and challenging read but at the same time very important. Great article.

spidermonkey09 - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Absolutely superb. Thanks Natalie. 

eroica64 - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Well this lifts a lid on a horrible aspect of climbing. It's disgusting. Name and shame the foul f**kers who do this kind of thing - if we can. 

Paul Sagar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Great article Natalie. Depressing to be reminded of the truth that so many men are horrible - but also important to be reminded. Sigh.

A friend of mine is married to an astronaut (yes, seriously) and her official Instagram profile is equipped with a feature that detects abusive content - anything with words like "bitch", "slut" etc. etc. - and filters it so that the abusive poster thinks it has been uploaded (they see it on the comment thread) but nobody else sees it. Quite clever, but as far as I can tell instagram only have this enabled for "verified" profiles, and perhaps only upon special request. A shame, as it could mitigate at least some of the crap (not sure if it also applied to DMs).

Post edited at 13:18
1
Luke90 on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Paul Sagar:

It sounds like that comment filter is available to any public user of Instagram: http://instagram.tumblr.com/post/162395020002/170629-comments

You can choose to block comments on your posts that Instagram's algorithms think might be offensive or enter your own keywords to block. Though it sounds like DMs are the biggest source of issues rather than comments and there don't seem to be any good tools for that. Individual users can be blocked but by the time you know who to block it's a bit late and people can still make new accounts.

Frank R. on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Superb article! Thank you! Although the subject makes me rather sad and angry...

Andrew Kin on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

I know it’s not going to be popular on here but so be it.  At what point do we just call it quits and make it illegal for males to exist?  I am the father of a teenage son and a nearly teenage daughter.  I know from witnessing the opportunities and societies reactions to their developing minds that I would much much rather prefer to be a young girl these days than a young lad.

yes of course there are complete arseholes about.  It goes without saying.  But highlighting that Alex or Adam hasn’t been sent a picture of another climbers boobs but Shauna or Janja have received pictures of willies, well ok you’ve made your point.  I dont need it rammed down my throat tbh.  I was rather impressed with the way Sasha DiGiulian dealt with online bullying.  She called it, shamed him and people were able to make up their minds. 

You did an article on body awareness and the tribulations of female climbers growing up with their growing muscles and everything else it entails.  I didn’t see any appreciation of the tribulations a male climber has to go through.  Go to any youth climbing competition and you will see many more young boys who are dealing with lack of muscles, height, hair, sweaty smells like the other boys who are lucky enough to be Adonis.  All you hear all day is boys comparing their physical attributes in the negative.  It’s just as bad as anything a girl has to go through.

None of this is to belittle the issue of blokes being sex pests but please have some balance.  You could have just finished it by suggesting girls do what Alex does.  Only look at messages from those he knows.  Everything else is deleted.  Or publicly shame them.

Am i the only one who thinks this site is very heavily weighted towards women in its editorial writing?

113
scot1 on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Men receive flirty comments from women but women receive inappropriate and unwanted advances from sexual predators. Seems to me there's a difference between genuine, if misguided interest and harassment. If a climber of either sex goes down the social media route then they will attract a few people who like the look of them. Par for the course. The rebuffed just need to deal with it without becoming abusive.

27
Paul Sagar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

"Go to any youth climbing competition and you will see many more young boys who are dealing with lack of muscles, height, hair, sweaty smells like the other boys who are lucky enough to be Adonis.  All you hear all day is boys comparing their physical attributes in the negative.  It’s just as bad as anything a girl has to go through."

I think this is called "puberty" and has been around for a long time. Girls also go through this. Nobody is denying either thing happens - but it's also just part of growing up.

Natalie's article is about the abuse directed at women, which is heavily, heavily skewed towards them because they are women, and is not experienced to anything like the same degree by men. Unlike puberty, online harassment and abuse are not a necessary part of human social living, but something inflicted (disproportionately on to women) by people who could easily behave otherwise. Because unlike teenagers, adults are generally expected to behave like, erm, adults, or at least be capable of not being awful (teenagers and children get more of a pass on this one, for reasons we're all familiar with).

"Am i the only one who thinks this site is very heavily weighted towards women in its editorial writing?"

Probably not, but that doesn't mean you're right.

Post edited at 14:59
Andrew Kin on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Yes it is known as puberty.  My point being girls puberty isn’t suddenly more important than boys.  Why is it always reported about girls having to deal with it.  The figures for teenage boys suicide rates are rising year on year.  Is it because they feel they have nowhere to voice their own concerns?

I don’t disagree that online harassment is heavily weighted towards women.  It doesn’t take an article on a climbing website or for that matter for professional climbers to highlight that.  I dare say if we chose any sport it would be the same.  Women receive more unwanted attention and abuse from men than the other way around.  Suggest methods of stopping it, which took me one or two sentences to recap.  But please stop making out men are to be kept on a lead and told what to do.

39
spidermonkey09 - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

I can barely believe these points need to be addressed, but you won't be the only one to have spectacularly missed the point of the article, depressingly.

> I know it’s not going to be popular on here but so be it.  At what point do we just call it quits and make it illegal for males to exist?  I am the father of a teenage son and a nearly teenage daughter.  I know from witnessing the opportunities and societies reactions to their developing minds that I would much much rather prefer to be a young girl these days than a young lad.

I find this incredible as a man in his twenties. It seems to me to be obvious that society remains heavily skewed in favour of me; a straight, white man. I would invite you to do some googling and investigate the discrimination and sexism, unconscious or otherwise, that women experience in the workplace and everyday life. Everyday Sexism would be a good place to start. And thats without even discussing how much more likely women are to be the victims of abuse or violence from partners or in the course of sexual activity.

> yes of course there are complete arseholes about.  It goes without saying.  But highlighting that Alex or Adam hasn’t been sent a picture of another climbers boobs but Shauna or Janja have received pictures of willies, well ok you’ve made your point.  I dont need it rammed down my throat tbh.  I was rather impressed with the way Sasha DiGiulian dealt with online bullying.  She called it, shamed him and people were able to make up their minds. 

So, because hearing about the abuse women have received online makes you uncomfortable, the article shouldn't have been written?

> You did an article on body awareness and the tribulations of female climbers growing up with their growing muscles and everything else it entails.  I didn’t see any appreciation of the tribulations a male climber has to go through.  Go to any youth climbing competition and you will see many more young boys who are dealing with lack of muscles, height, hair, sweaty smells like the other boys who are lucky enough to be Adonis.  All you hear all day is boys comparing their physical attributes in the negative.  It’s just as bad as anything a girl has to go through.

This is like asking when International Mens Day is (19th November, fyi...). Puberty is indeed hard but men/boys are simply not subjected to the same level of societal and sexual scrutiny that women are. I can't believe this needs to be said really, but there we are.

> None of this is to belittle the issue of blokes being sex pests but please have some balance.  You could have just finished it by suggesting girls do what Alex does.  Only look at messages from those he knows.  Everything else is deleted.  Or publicly shame them.

The article literally points out that male climbers experience very little in the way of abuse and harassment compared to women. Even if they did, I wouldn't advocate ignoring them because it doesn't change behaviour and attitudes. Calling out might but it takes a level of confidence some simply wouldn't have. 

> Am i the only one who thinks this site is very heavily weighted towards women in its editorial writing?

Maybe not, but you might be the only one who seems to think this imaginary bias is a problem. Natalie (who I don't know, for the record) has diversified UKC massively beyond the 'reporting by numbers' style it used to have. Just look at some of the older articles and compare and contrast. This is just one of the pieces that make it more interesting site to read.

9
mullermn - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

The mistake you’re making is assuming that because your son doesn’t do these things he’s not collectively accountable for the people that do, which he clearly is because he shares the same sex chromosomes.

I myself have two boys. The youngest can’t talk yet but the oldest can now so I plan to start a regular programme of lectures until he understands what a horrible monster he is and why issues that will affect him, like the suicide rate or the fact that schools are consistently failing boys compared to girls don’t deserve to be taken seriously. 

47
Misha - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

Why not write an insightful article with quotes etc about how male climbers are bullied by other male climbers or indeed female climbers, just because they are male? I’m sure it would get published if it’s a good article. I’m less sure you’d get much material. 

Post edited at 15:24
2
Andrew Kin on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Misha:

No it’s ok misha.  Boys just keep those feelings to themselves to the point they commit suicide because they feel that to question why their importance and issues doesn’t rank with girls is to question being brave etc.  As has been noted on here.  I never like or dislike anything on these pages but I at least have the thick skin enough to discuss.  How many young lads may be feeling underrepresented on here and have regressed just a little bit more due to the response I am getting.  

Post edited at 15:24
37
marsbar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

Nothing in the article suggests men need to be kept on a lead and told what to do, or that men shouldn’t exist.  

It isn’t most men that behave like this, it’s a small number.  

It is most women who have to deal with this behaviour. 

Women pointing out that women have to deal with tw*ts sending dick pics isn’t stopping you or any other man writing an article about male suicide.  

I feel sorry for your daughter.  

Good men and good fathers support women in calling out the small proportion of dickheads instead of whining about “not all men” and assuming that someone calling out the dickheads is aiming it at them.  

7
Andrew Kin on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to mullermn:

I nearly went nuclear for a second.  Then I realised I need to turn my humour meter up a little.  Thanks for that.

5
marsbar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

So now complaining about men who send dick pics is making young men regress?  

Ffs.  

3
mullermn - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

We’ll burn together on this thread. I reckon I’m going to get a high score for dislikes by voicing any support for your point.

5
willworkforfoodjnr - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

> No it’s ok misha.  Boys just keep those feelings to themselves to the point they commit suicide because they feel that to question why their importance and issues doesn’t rank with girls is to question being brave etc.  As has been noted on here.  I never like or dislike anything on these pages but I at least have the thick skin enough to discuss.  How many young lads may be feeling underrepresented on here and have regressed just a little bit more due to the response I am getting.  

As a straight white male who has attempted suicide more than once, don't you dare use the suicide rate to push the bullcrap that society is weighted towards women. Its both untrue and a disgusting use of other peoples misery for your own point

16
joeldering on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

I feel very conflicted about posting this reply. I'm annoyed that you have derailed a thread about women to make it about men, and I don't want to contribute to that derailment. I'd also rather leave these spaces open for women.

However, of the twelve most recent news articles on UKC, eight have headlines about men, two about women, and two about neither. The 'Perfect Partners' series covered sixteen pairs of climbers, and in total talked about four women.

That you read two thoughtful articles about women's issues and feel it's appropriate for you to complain that their harrassment is being 'rammed down your throat' and feel entitled to tell those women how they ought to handle their harrassment seems pretty appalling.

4
deepsoup - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to spidermonkey09:

> Everyday Sexism would be a good place to start.

Here's a small example from this very parish.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/competitions/your_chance_to_win_an_osprey_prize_bundle-11634

"To celebrate the new Kestrel [pack designed for men] and Kyte [pack designed for women], Osprey are giving you the chance to win a Kestrel 48L pack ..."

There's nothing very specific on Osprey's website to say so, but I would like to assume the Kyte is genuinely designed for women, rather than the old "take the men's design, make it a bit smaller, make it pink" school of thought. 

Their UKC competition however is very much sticking to the old trope that the male design is the default.  If you win and you happen to be a woman can you have the Kyte instead of the Kestrel?  We don't know, they didn't think it was important and couldn't be arsed to say.  (In this, a PR exercise one of the main aims of which is supposedly to promote a product specifically meant for women!)

This isn't dick pics on instagram, it's not abusive merely thoughtless.  Just a small example of the background noise of ordinary humdrum everyday sexism.

6
La benya - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Jesus... there are some absolute crackers being posted this week. I sometimes wonder why society hasn’t progressed to where we should have done, in the time we have had... and then people like these twonks come along and make you realise that your nice friendly bubble of similarly minded, tolerate, moderate liberal friends is just that, a bubble, and the rest of the world is potentially populated with people that get angry when people ask others to stop sending pictures of their genitals 😐

Nice article Natalie.

5
scot1 on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to spidermonkey09:

Men might win physically but in no way are women victims dude. The abuse dished out by females is usually far better targeted and more intelligent.Do you think that women can't deal with a few online pervs? They'll eat them for breakfast.

43
tlouth7 on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

This is just the sort of well written, thoroughly researched, thought provoking, long form journalism that any news outlet (and especially one with a relatively small readership such as UKC) should be proud to produce. I for one would welcome (and probably read!) more pieces like this, and would be happy to suggest a few potential topics, perhaps on another thread?

2
Andrew Kin on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to La benya:

and then people like these twonks come along and make you realise that your nice friendly bubble of similarly minded, tolerate, moderate liberal friends is just that, a bubble

Yes I have witnessed loads of friendly, tolerate and liberal people on this thread.  I read a meme recently that stated “just because I’d don’t agree with you, doesn’t mean I hate you”.  I have tried to put my opinions down without being abusive or aggressive.  Those are my thoughts and I accept you and many other don’t agree with them.  However, much like any Brexit thread on this website, a difference of opinion can only be resolved by abuse and going off in tangents or even justifications that because you haven’t been through it you have no right to that opinion.  I was waiting for that type of response to quote it whilst I ignored the abuse.  Thank you.

16
La benya - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

It’s not an opinion. There is nothing to have an opinion on. You’re not a woman getting dick pics. 

7
Andrew Kin on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to La benya:

I will humour you.  So are these dic pics coming from women?

16
JHiley on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

> I don’t disagree that online harassment is heavily weighted towards women.  

>  Women receive more unwanted attention and abuse from men than the other way around.  

Your own words ^ So you more or less agree with the article? It seems like this was the main point Natalie was making. Personally I find it quite surprising that female climbers receive this level of online abuse. I've tended to assume climbers are a bit more enlightened. Doesn't the fact that it's so bizarre and yet widespread make it worth writing an article about in order to call it out?

>It doesn’t take an article on a climbing website

I could summarise most of the articles on here or even the whole plot of 'the lord of the rings' in about two sentences. Doesn't mean it isn't worth elaborating.

I also don't see the pro-woman weighting. Natalie seemed to go out of the way to find male perspectives. It felt like a large section could've been titled, "the world according to Jorg Verhoeven."

La benya - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

What?...

do you want them to send you some? There’s easier ways of getting pictures of random penises. 

1
scot1 on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to La benya:

Can males have an opinion on this, or only if we've had dick pics? How about unwanted attention from a gay male? 

24
spidermonkey09 - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Just imagine being a woman and reading some of these comments. Embarrassing. 

La benya - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to scot1:

If that’s a significant issue that by all means go ahead an write a piece on it. How does that mean that this piece is wrong or should be written. 

As I said, it’s not an opinion. You cant have an opinion on something you aren’t involved in. You can’t be involved in this unless you’re a woman or a dick pic sender. 

If neither of the above, you can read with interest and ask questions to get a better understanding. But you can’t have an opinion. What would your opinion be based on? A sample of one male (you) having not sent a doc pic therefore it’s not a problem?!?  Do you see how that is a flawed approach?

13
La benya - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to spidermonkey09:

Women points out problem which involved some men. Some men who aren’t involved in the initial problem deny a problem. Problem continues.

this is why it’s worth writing articles about it and ‘ramming it down your throats’. 

scot1 on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to La benya:

I've got an opinion on all sorts of things that I'm not involved in, the holocaust, the middle east etc. Should I avoid being judgemental on these or just try to gain understanding?

5
Andrew Kin on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to JHiley:

Hi jhiley,

i had a response typed out but accidentally deleted it.  Anyhow, thank you for your response.  It doesn’t feel attacking and it encourages a conversation.  

Of course I agree with the article.  At no point have I disagreed with its point.  Men sending dick pics to ladies are scum.  Where is the news there?  Of course it’s also weighted towards women too.  Totally agree.  

I find it astonishing that you find it surprising that it is happening in climbing.  See now we are getting some conversation and some reasoning I can get my teeth into.  What’s the name of the climbing lady who puts up Facebook, Instagram, etc etc pictures of herself in bikinis, swimming etc holding whatever new product she is being sponsored by at the time.  I forget her name.  I don’t feel comfortable with her sense of justification to earn money from showing flesh to promote when she is a sporting ambassador.  Sierra Coyle?  Is the old adage sex sells.  As climbing becomes more and more mainstream it also opens the doors to more and more of this approach.  Already young kids are learning the tools to promote and sell their abilities to the best of their abilities through on line media to gather sponsorship and ambassador status.  I question how healthy it is and how it is seen today.  I have questioned myself in this manner too.

Totally take your your point about summarising.  It’s just I felt it was lazy journalism and following on from the women’s body awareness article I felt it worth pointing out (my bad).  That body awareness article could have been fantastic by encompassing both male and female struggles.  It’s been mentioned that there have been 2 out of the last 8 articles about women.  However how many of the articles have dealt with men’s issues.  An article about how climbing helps keep young men’s doc pic sending in check. An article about how climbing can be an amazing benefit to young offenders and a way of channeling their aggression, similar to that of boxing etc etc.  No it’s easy to bash men and point out that some men send dick pics and more women than men receive these pics.

ive lost a load of what I said earlier but this is the rumblings I can remember.  Again, I do not see differences of opinion as anything malicious, I hope you take it this way

Post edited at 17:06
9
Durbs on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to mullermn:

> The mistake you’re making is assuming that because your son doesn’t do these things he’s not collectively accountable for the people that do, which he clearly is because he shares the same sex chromosomes.

> I myself have two boys. The youngest can’t talk yet but the oldest can now so I plan to start a regular programme of lectures until he understands what a horrible monster he is and why issues that will affect him, like the suicide rate or the fact that schools are consistently failing boys compared to girls don’t deserve to be taken seriously. 

Or, you know... just have sensible conversations with the older one, as well as modelling with your own behaviour, to set out how to treat others (of both sexes) with respect, and encourage them to call out inappropriate behaviour from their friends when they see it. 

Likewise encourage them to talk about their feelings, rather than "manning up" and bottling it up, which leads to poor mental health. 

See, then you're actually helping to solve these problems, rather than ignoring it and thus prolonging it.

Obviously your point was hyperbolic, but the fact you see this article and then leap to the defence of "not all men" is part of the toxic masculinity problem that leads to increased suicide rates or anti-feminist thinking.

L FunesTheMemorious - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

A very thought-provoking and well-written article, kudos Natalie. I am consistently dismayed by the sexual harassment women face, both online and offline and sorry to those that have to deal with such abhorrent behaviour.

As for everyday sexism, its deniers are akin to climate deniers and flat-earthers as far as I'm concerned. It is clearly ubiquitous.

Post edited at 17:09
1
La benya - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to scot1:

If you’re opinion of the holocaust is ‘I didn’t kill Jews so there wasn’t an issue. why are you writing an article about it? I’d rather be a Jew than a German in 1940s europe’ then the same applies.

7
scot1 on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to La benya:

Utter nonsense. You're saying that anyone who hasn't been sent a dick pic can't have a opinion. You're also totally over blowing the issue, there's no comparison. Why so bitter?

8
La benya - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

Ah yes, the old ‘she was asking for it by wearing a bikini’ gambit.

you're morning about these articles not being written from both male and female perspectives while simultaneously moaning about them not being relevant. The males-receiving-dick-pics problem is so vanishingly small compared to the problem faced by women that it isn’t relevant. At all. 

11
La benya - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to scot1:

Whatever man. If you want to receive dick pics then just ask. Otherwise, don’t Moan when people point out they would rather not.

Post edited at 17:25
Andrew Kin on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to La benya:

That is the opposite of the point I was trying to make and thanks for muckying the message. Real classy.

My point was that the article should have addressed these things in the way of promoting conversation.  Does it currently effect things?  May the popularity of climbing in the future lead to even more men doing this and so possibly fuelling an issue.  Again, by discussing you get reasoning.  You are just outright attacking every single point

edited because I kept repeating point

Post edited at 17:16
10
deepsoup - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

> Boys just keep those feelings to themselves to the point they commit suicide because they feel that to question why their importance and issues doesn’t rank with girls is to question being brave etc.

The second half of that sentence is nonsense.  Boys, and young men (and indeed old men) aren't secretly miserable because they think their "importance and issues" don't rank with those of women, they suffer in silence because they believe boys must be brave, boys don't cry, they are the strong ones.  It is shameful to not be stoical.  Boys need to 'man up'.

The fact that boys and men find it harder to seek help when they need it is the flip side of precisely the same patriarchal coin that also harms girls and young women (and old women).  It isn't a reason to kick-back against feminism, it's a reason to wholeheartedly embrace it - for the benefit of sons as well as daughters.

Post edited at 17:17
1
Andrew Kin on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

And again, a difference of opinion is nonsense.  Thanks.  Tbh I agree with you.  I worded it badly but in the end I think it is also important to see that young lads have issues too and the fact that it isn’t seen to be reported as regularly as issues for women (due in part down to whatever bravado you want) then it’s an issue.

8
La benya - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

What conversation?!  dont send dick pics.  enough of them get sent that its a problem for women.  If youre not a dick pick sender, great!  If you are, stop it. if you are in any way influential in someone elses life, try and instill the hwole no-dick-pics thing on them too.  You dont need an opinion.

3
scot1 on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to La benya:

Over sensitivity. Even if you were to send me a dick pic and ask me out I'd get over it ( unless you made me feel small).

22
La benya - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to scot1:

But thats you.  'women' (the collective) are telling us that this is an issue and they cant 'just get over it'. whats wrong with that? how does that in any way affect you?  we arent all out in the street with torches and pitchforks baying for the blood of all men because of it.  were asking those that send dic pics not to, and for those of us that dont, to be aware of the problem and do what we can to help.

i also dont know whether your suggesting that im overly sensitive or 'women' are?  however your last sentence is telling really.  your sense of self and masculinity is fully tied up into how long a peice of skin and gristle between your legs is. Ridiculous!

4
marsbar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

> The fact that boys and men find it harder to seek help when they need it is the flip side of precisely the same patriarchal coin that also harms girls...

This is spot on.  

1
marsbar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to scot1:

Now it's time to belittle the victims for being over sensitive.  

Still, on a positive note, this thread is a great way of working out which men are chauvinists.  

3
marsbar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

So, how many articles have you written about the problems of the men and boys?  

Write it and submit it.  

4
scot1 on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to La benya:

It's not 'gristle' thanks very much, it's my pride and joy  I'm not denying that women are subjected to that stuff a lot more than men. What I am saying is that the few men who do stuff like that are used as a stick to beat men in general with. Aggression and bullying are not restricted to males, women can be a lot worse. 

Post edited at 17:44
27
marsbar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

It's not a difference of opinion if you are talking nonsense.  

4
marsbar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to scot1:

No one is beating all men for the behaviour of a few.  That's just your excuse.  

Frank R. on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to La benya:

> dont send dick pics.  enough of them get sent that its a problem for women.  If youre not a dick pick sender, great!  If you are, stop it. if you are in any way influential in someone elses life, try and instill the hwole no-dick-pics thing on them too.

Pretty good summary

scot1 on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to marsbar:

my excuse for what?

1
scot1 on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to marsbar:

Seems a bit arrogant to me

6
marsbar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to scot1:

Victim blaming.  Complaining that women are over sensitive instead of calling out tw*ts who send dick pics.  Funny that you think women are over sensitive, you are the one being over sensitive if you think complaints about dick pics are aimed at all men, it's aimed at the senders.  

As for arrogant I probably am.  Oh well.  

La benya - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to scot1:

How is this article a stick? How are you being beaten? And how exactly are women, on average, worse then men at this sort of thing? 

johncoxmysteriously - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to marsbar:

Changing the subject slightly (please.....!), did anyone else find it surprising seeing Lynn Hill bracketed with Isabelle P and Catherine D as women climbers who increased their profile by their glamour?

I would have thought Lynn H was remarkable not for doing this but for not doing it; her appeal to me was always the opposite. She struck me as someone who absolutely refused to play that particular card and demanded to be judged on her enormous abilities in a gender-free way.

jcm

mullermn - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Durbs:

> Obviously your point was hyperbolic, but the fact you see this article and then leap to the defence of "not all men" is part of the toxic masculinity problem that leads to increased suicide rates or anti-feminist thinking.

More hyperbolic than you realise (bad writing on my part) because the older one is two and a half. 

My post was a response to having read Andrew’s post and knowing with depressing certainty what a tidal wave of vitriol it was about to unleash from people who’ve been conditioned to whoop like a troop of howler monkeys in discussions like this to prove how incredibly ‘woke’ they are.

In any other thread on any other topic a slightly off topic and contrary post would be disagreed with but I doubt a personal attack like ‘I feel sorry for your daughter’ would have so many lining up to hammer the like button like Pavlovian dogs. The recent Assange thread has got tens if not a hundred comments 911 Truthing in it and remained civil, for example, and thousands of people died in those events!

For what it’s worth I thought the article was thorough and well written and went to some length to explicitly avoid any sweeping statements about men as a whole.  

2
tom_in_edinburgh - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to La benya:

> As I said, it’s not an opinion. You cant have an opinion on something you aren’t involved in. 

Tell that to 14 million leave voters who have an opinion about World Trade Organisation rules.

4
dsh - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to mullermn:

> The mistake you’re making is assuming that because your son doesn’t do these things he’s not collectively accountable for the people that do, which he clearly is because he shares the same sex chromosomes.

Reading this article I knew before I had even finished that I was going to read comments like this, and those written by  Andrew K. These attitudes are almost as bad as those of the people who send messages that the article calls out, they believe they are good because they haven't perpetrated these acts, yet they question why we should be concerned because it's not all men and take it as a personal attack. They diminish the victims right to be upset, and take personal offence at the suggestion that the vast majority of the offences are committed by men. These responses whether intended to or not do embolden people to continue to commit such acts as the perpetrators do not see themselves as being called out by other men.

These sort of acts have happened to every woman I know, none of whom are famous climbers, so I can imagine how much worse it must be for women who are well known in the public eye. I hate the fact that some men's egos are so fragile that they get personally upset at a article that  presents some observations on what women in climbing have to deal with.

I remember once on here on a post about catcalling the same kind of responses, it's a minority, I've never seen it happen, stop criticising all men etc, etc. Had to point out that it happens to women when they are alone not with other men, and even though it's a minority of men, many women still are victims to these acts every day, and it's due to such attitudes being unchallenged or even defended.

Would you shame your partners or daughters if they were receiving these comments and decided to write an article about it?

Post edited at 18:52
1
L Alexa Puschia on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Great article, but isn't this just preaching to the choir? Toxic, abusive men have existed since the dawn of humans themselves. Normal people already agree it's toxic and terrible, but the reality is that if you are a beautiful woman, and if you put yourself out there on social media, you are going to be a lightning rod for this kind of garbage. It's a testament to the curse that is our evolutionary drive to reproduce and the toxic flavor of behavior that will always be the end result for at least some portion of people.

I get that the author is trying to "raise awareness" or something like that, but isn't this just... common knowledge? Some people are utter shit. Men included. Climbers included. Fact of life, and learning to deal with toxic people is another aspect of life that is often neglected, and instead, we write articles to "raise awareness" of the issue... as if a school shooting once per month in the newspaper isn't enough to "raise awareness" that humans are in fact, incredibly shitty at times.

Prisons are full of men who are unable to manage their emotions and manage this blight of evolutionary DNA that has been gifted upon them. The rest of the world is full of men who haven't taken it to the point of outright abuse, rape, or otherwise.... and the world is also full of an overwhelming majority of men who are normal, respectful, well-adjusted individuals. But social media, climbing gyms, are open to all... you can't get the overwhelming good without the seemingly overwhelming bad. 

Ultimately, it's a choice for everyone. Some segment of society are always going to choose to be complete douchebags, just like many men choose to be respectful. Short of mass, mandatory chemical sterilization, this isn't going away. As climbing grows, so does the portion of climbers who fall into that category... men who make the choice to be toxic and shitty, and ultimately couldn't care less how it affects women. 

Social media, sadly, just magnifies the problem and gives it a voice, just like social media magnifies everything. But using Social media is a choice as well that we all make. If we, as women, wish to limit our exposure to this kind of toxic behavior, the sad reality is that distancing ourselves from social media, the limelight, and men who we don't know yet is just going to be the reality of it. 

Yea, there are so many professional athletic women who literally make money by putting themselves in the limelight. Abuse, as a side effect of human nature, comes with the territory. Block toxic people, limit your social media contact as much as possible, move on with your life. 

Post edited at 19:00
13
PaulScramble - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

I hear about it, but I still don't believe dick pics are a thing, is it? Surely that would amount to online flashing. Indecent exposure is a criminal offence.

Post edited at 18:51
5
bouldery bits - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to PaulScramble:

I'm going to go out on a limb here Paul and guess you're over 40?

Post edited at 18:55
3
mullermn - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to PaulScramble:

> I hear about it, but I still don't believe dick pics are a thing, is it? Surely that would amount to online flashing. Indecent exposure is a criminal offence.

Exactly what I said the first time a friend mentioned it, but it turns out it does happen often enough to be a thing that affects ‘normal’ women (not just celebs).

What I’ve never been able to understand is what the sender thinks is going to happen? ‘Well, I wasn’t interested before, but now I’ve seen your cock! Where do I sign?’ It’s not like the penis is the highlight of the male physique. Michelangelo was a genius and even he had trouble. 

mullermn - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to dsh:

> Would you shame your partners or daughters if they were receiving these comments and decided to write an article about it?

Well I’m not sure I’ve shamed anyone unless you identify as a howler monkey. 

1
Mr Lopez - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

> The second half of that sentence is nonsense.  Boys, and young men (and indeed old men) aren't secretly miserable because they think their "importance and issues" don't rank with those of women, they suffer in silence because they believe boys must be brave, boys don't cry, they are the strong ones.  It is shameful to not be stoical.  Boys need to 'man up'.

Excellent point expressed beautifully here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sbws6ZqVpnE

dsh - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to mullermn:

> Well I’m not sure I’ve shamed anyone unless you identify as a howler monkey. 

If not shaming you dismiss their experiences and diminish their cause with rhetoric like this:

> The mistake you’re making is assuming that because your son doesn’t do these things he’s not collectively accountable for the people that do, which he clearly is because he shares the same sex chromosomes.

> I myself have two boys. The youngest can’t talk yet but the oldest can now so I plan to start a regular programme of lectures until he understands what a horrible monster he is and why issues that will affect him, like the suicide rate or the fact that schools are consistently failing boys compared to girls don’t deserve to be taken seriously

Nobody is suggesting you should do that at all.

Post edited at 19:12
2
Paul Sagar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

I've skipped the bottom 3d of comments but just hoping to take the heat out of all this a bit:

1) Andrew Kin is not being disrespectful, and whilst I disagree with him, I think it's important not to just vilify him. Fundamentally I think the mistake he is making here is that focusing on women means ignoring men, or that raising women up means putting men down. I think that's a mistake, however...

...2) It's not a CRAZY mistake. Andrew is talking about his experiences with his son, and his concern is that his son will face difficulties that are being ignored. This is an understandable parental response. Again, I would dispute that talking about women means we therefore have to ignore/forget about men - but that's a nuance. And some of what Andrew says - about male mental health, suicide, etc - is true. Now, FWIW I think that those are separate issues and should be treated separately, but if you think these things matter and you worry (perhaps falsely, but nonetheless) that they are being unfairly ignored, that can lead to exasperation. Again, I think Andrew is making a mistake in these regards, but he's not trolling or setting out to be a prick. He's just coming from a different starting point.

Therefore 3) I think it's really important not to vilify people like Andrew. He is attempting to engage in a good faith discussion, about something that matters to him. Some of the responses on here boarder on calling him an outright sexist. Which is, I think, just false. I think he's making some mistakes, but hey I'm sure he thinks I'm making some mistakes too. It's really easy to shout at people when you think they are on the wrong side of a moral question, but beyond making you feel righteous it doesn't change hearts and minds.

I know this is the internet so this all a fat waste of time, but if "the climbing community" wants to distinguish itself as somehow a bit better than the disgusting gutter that is most other politically-influenced commentary on the internet, we could well start by respecting Andrew - whilst thinking him firmly wrong - for at least being willing to try and speak his mind and understand, rather than just f*cking off to 4Chan (or whatever) to post Trump Pepe the Frog memes. Although that is where people will end up, if they feel shouted down. Note the fact that Andrew isn't hiding behind anonymity - that tells you something important. He's not a troll, he just comes from a different perspective.

So how about we all just take the heat out of it a bit?

1
mullermn - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Good post. That’s the sort of thing I’d write if my personality wasn’t 90% sarcasm. 

1
bouldery bits - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Stop being so reasonable.

That's not how we do things round here. 

bouldery bits - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to mullermn:

> Good post. That’s the sort of thing I’d write if my personality wasn’t 90% sarcasm. 

Yeah, of course you would. Because you're soooooo sarcastic. :P

1
Andrew Kin on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Paul Sagar:

Have a like.  In a way that actually makes more sense to me than my own ramblings.  Thanks.  I still feel an imbalance exists and it is fueled by this type of article.  Not in the way that it shouldn't be addressed but more that we know it exists and let's debate when,why and how we think it will develop.  Not just, men send dick pics and funnily enough it occurs to climbers too.  Glad I didn't bring this up when I felt similar thoughts on the female body topic too.  It was such an opportunity to embrace both male and female insecurities and possibly talk about the positives climbing can bring to body awareness.  

13
Andrew Kin on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

If it helps, karma has paid me back in spades in last hour.  I have just had myself and the back of my car covered in 20litres of diesel.  I stink

2
L 88Dan - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Interesting article. I do however believe that anyone in this day and age who uses any form of social media should know exactly what to expect. this of course doesn't mean that such behaviour is correct and should just be accepted, but people by now should know the highs and lows of social media.

You can post photos or videos of yourself doing anything you like, other than horizontal jogging maybe, and you will get a mixture of comments ranging from I love your video and you, right down to that was shit please crawl away and die. we all know things like this happen so it shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone.

14
mullermn - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

> If it helps, karma has paid me back in spades in last hour.  I have just had myself and the back of my car covered in 20litres of diesel.  I stink

Just be glad some of the posters on this thread don’t know where you are, they’d have you up in smoke like a Wicker Man. 

3
planetmarshall on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to mullermn:

> My post was a response to having read Andrew’s post and knowing with depressing certainty what a tidal wave of vitriol it was about to unleash from people who’ve been conditioned to whoop like a troop of howler monkeys in discussions like this to prove how incredibly ‘woke’ they are.

I am particularly enjoying the irony that in response to an article which describes how women are sent indecent images and threatened with violence and sexual abuse, you can in all seriousness describe any of the above responses as "A tidal wave of vitriol".

4
Paul Sagar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

FWIW Andrew, I think there probably IS a good and worthwhile article to be written about the challenges faced by teenage boys in relation to body image in the world of competitive bouldering.

Not, of course, as a replacement for articles about women, but in addition. I'm not the person to write it, but I'd be interested to read it if someone well placed wrote it. I'm sure other would too - despite my dismissiveness above, I'm sure you're right that actually young men today probably do feel more pressure regarding body image than I did when I was 14 (although to be fair, I remember feeling pressure then too).

mullermn - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to planetmarshall:

> I am particularly enjoying the irony that in response to an article which describes how women are sent indecent images and threatened with violence and sexual abuse, you can in all seriousness describe any of the above responses as "A tidal wave of vitriol".

If you have information that Andrew has done any of those things then I suggest you contact the police. Otherwise you would appear to be suggesting that he deserves the disproportionate slagging he’s getting on this thread because...?

8
marsbar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Damned if you do and damned if you don’t it seems.  

bouldery bits - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to planetmarshall:

> I am particularly enjoying the irony that in response to an article which describes how women are sent indecent images and threatened with violence and sexual abuse, you can in all seriousness describe any of the above responses as "A tidal wave of vitriol".

You're thinking of a ''tidal wave of willys'. Which is different.

marsbar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to PaulScramble:

And bingo.  

We have the full house. 

What about the men?

Why are they wearing so little?

Why are they so sensitive?

Sexist man isn’t being sexist mansplained

I don’t believe it happens.  

For bonus points we really need to pair I don’t believe it happens with why don’t women report it more?   

16
marsbar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

I wouldn’t wish anything bad on you (re the diesel).  I just wish you’d understand.  You have a girl child.  Please talk to women about things like this and try to see it from our point of view. 

5
marsbar - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Alexa Puschia:

It’s not common knowledge.  

Women have every right to be on social media as much as they want without being sent stuff like that.  

It’s abusive behaviour and nothing to do with beauty or reproduction.  It happens to women regardless of beauty or clothing.  

planetmarshall on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to mullermn:

> Otherwise you would appear to be suggesting that he deserves the disproportionate slagging he’s getting on this thread because...?

Perhaps you could give an example of what you consider to be "disproportionate slagging".

2
mullermn - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to planetmarshall:

Sorry, been in enough internet discussions to recognise an invitation to a nitpicking spiral. If you think I’m wrong then that’s just something I’ll have to learn to live with. 

1
La benya - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

> I still feel an imbalance exists and it is fueled by this type of article.

what imbalance? 

john arran - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Interesting article. I do however believe that anyone in this day and age who uses any form of social media should know exactly what to expect. this of course doesn't mean that such behaviour is correct and should just be accepted, but people by now should know the highs and lows of social media.

> You can post photos or videos of yourself doing anything you like, other than horizontal jogging maybe, and you will get a mixture of comments ranging from I love your video and you, right down to that was shit please crawl away and die. we all know things like this happen so it shouldn't really be a surprise to anyone.

Yet when I posted an opinion that online posting might better be made more accountable - even if retaining its public veneer of anonymity - I received a wedge of dislikes. In my opinion it's only because people seem confident that there will never be any comeback on their unreasonable online behaviour that such unreasonable online behaviour is allowed to flourish.

1
john arran - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to scot1:

> I'm not denying that women are subjected to that stuff a lot more than men. What I am saying is that the few men who do stuff like that are used as a stick to beat men in general with.

I identify as a man (reluctantly, as I'm still a boy at heart!) and it wouldn't even occur to me that I'm being beaten with any stick by anybody, least of all someone like Natalie who's simply highlighting an issue that seems to have grown in proportion throughout the social media age to the point where it's an inescapable reality for huge numbers of girls and women.

Is your main problem with it:

a) shame that you share a sex with the vast majority of perpetrators?

b) indignation that you think there are problems of similar severity and frequency affecting boys or men that are going unreported while this gets a day in the limelight? (in which case, what are they?)

c) something else I haven't yet being able to pick up on?

mullermn - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to john arran:

It is odd. I think you’re right in that 90% of the unpleasant people on the internet are that way because they feel they can hide from their actions. 

At the same time I’d feel very sad at the idea of that anonymity no longer existing, and I can’t really put my finger on why. It definitely feels like a step towards a totalitarian world to have your internet identity regulated by a government (which is basically what we’re talking about if you want to endorse accountability online).

Misha - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

It seems you agree with what the article is saying but disagree with the fact it was written without another article being written about ‘male’ issues. Your mention of offenders is a good one. I’m sure if there is a programme which uses climbing / the outdoors to rehabilitate offenders, it would make for an interesting article. Why not research and write one yourself? Worth noting that there have been articles previously about climbing as a way to combat depression (suicide being a disproportionately male issue). So I’d say there has been balance. 

Andrew Kin on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Misha:

HI misha.  Please have a read through my responses and see where I have stated that I don't disagree with the subject matter. How can I think blokes sending pics of there dicks is anything other than disgusting.  Of course I agree with the author.

what I felt needed addressing was an imbalance.  It may have been clumsy, misdirected or whatever but the responses here are pretty disheartening but expected

13
Andrew Kin on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to La benya:

How many times do I have to write it down.

Men sending dick pics is nothing new

The article is plain lazy IMo as it brings absolutely nothing to the subject other than to say it exists in climbing and quotes a few men and women climbers of repute to show the point

So in my eyes this article and the last one on the subject of women's body awareness which I also feel missed a huge opportunity to be a positive, rather than very negative to both males and females.  In the context of articles for a climbing website, there is an imbalance in social awareness articles.  Happy enough to accept you don't agree

26
Misha - on 17 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

Yes, some people are being unfair. Also it’s easy to misinterpret what people are saying in online discussions. That’s half the issue with these kinds of discussions / arguments.

What I’m saying is get involved if you feel strongly about it - write that article you’re looking for!

Also I disagree that the article brings nothing new. There are issues and it’s great that UKC are highlighting these issues. Not everyone is necessarily aware of it and even if people are it’s important to highlight it because raising awareness is part of the way to combat these things.

Post edited at 21:30
r0x0r.wolfo - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

There's a part in the article which talks about an athlete receiving negative feedback from entering the political sphere and this being further evidence of misogyny. The example given in the article certainly looked misognistic to me, but boy if I wasn't telling Morrissey to stick to what he's actually good at after using his platform to voice a rallying cry for Britain First. 

Should an athlete start promoting anti-vaccine rhetoric I'd encourage anyone to remind them that they're actually a rock jock and not a doctor. Now politics is much more nebulous and I believe that anyone can express an opinion but don't be shocked if you're challenged when preaching to your fan-base built up from being a climber, footballer, reality tv star or whatever. 

Post edited at 00:21
planetmarshall on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

> Please have a read through my responses and see where I have stated that I don't disagree with the subject matter. How can I think blokes sending pics of there dicks is anything other than disgusting.  Of course I agree with the author.

> what I felt needed addressing was an imbalance. It may have been clumsy, misdirected or whatever but the responses here are pretty disheartening but expected

You have received a number of responses that disagree with your position, most if not all of which have been fairly moderate in tone and have at least tried to explain why it is they are in disagreement. There's certainly nothing I would describe as 'vitriolic' - though I suppose that is a matter of perspective. Do you really find it so disheartening? Particularly when you repeatedly announce that such a response was what you expected - perhaps you might consider why that might be.

You refer to an 'imbalance', but don't really elaborate. You agree with the subject matter so clearly don't think that the imbalance is with another side of the argument. I don't think anyone has suggested such and to do so would be an obvious strawman.

So what imbalance is there? Taking aim at issues that disproportionately affect one gender or other section of society is not some zero sum game in which there is a finite amount of compassion or empathy to be doled out and other equally virtuous causes are to be left wanting. Nor do I accept your criticism of the article on the basis that the behaviour it describes is "nothing new" or that it does not need highlighted. That much should be obvious from at least one respondent who expressed incredulity that such behaviour occurred.

I look forward to reading further articles of this sort, and if they happen to be about women, or LGBT or other sections of society with which I do not identify, I will not be using it as an opportunity to cry "What about MY issues?". Instead I will go away a bit better informed, maybe with a bit more understanding of other people who are not me, and the issues that they face. Such is the result of good journalism.

1
Presley Whippet on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Interestingly, the article is mainly concerned with celebrity climbers who have chosen to court public adulation as a career choice. Without condoning the dick pics, if this choice is made then the climber has to take the rough with the smooth and not go running to mammy. 

Politicians get egged and satirised their effigies burned at Lewes,. 

Footballers are subject to nasty personal chants from the terraces. 

All sorts of stuff gets barrage at TV non entities. 

Harassment is part of the game they have chosen to enter it was never a secret. There are many talented top end climbers who choose to work in a normal job and not seek the adulation of the general public I wonder how much harassment they get? 

32
TobyA on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to Presley Whippet:

So you're saying you have the right to use your anonymous user name to abuse people? It's all part of the game? And even if that's true is there not a difference in me saying "you're a f@#£ing pieceof sh&£” and saying I'm going to rape you?

And talk to women, from girls in their early teens upwards - it seems receiving dick pics and comments from 'I think you're pretty' to threats of sexual violence is normal. It's not just "part of the game" for celebrities in any field, it's just part of life for women.

Presley Whippet on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to TobyA:

No, I am not saying that. 

I am saying that by choosing to be in the public eye, the climbers are choosing to enter in to an arena that is well known to be at times unpleasant. 

Let me expand with a further example:

A secondary school teacher would get little sympathy if they broke down into fits of tears every time a nowty teenager was unpleasant to them it goes with the choice of career. 

You don't become a milk man if you can't handle early mornings. 

23
marsbar - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to Presley Whippet:

I'm a secondary teacher. I deal with stroppy teenagers all day.  It doesn't mean I accept their behaviour. If they cross the line they get punished. If it's just generally stroppy then I remind them how we speak to people.

We are living in a time where MPs are getting plausible death threats and where female MPs have had rape theats. Jo Cox was murdered.  

Dick pics are over the line of what any decent society tolerates. 

Rad - on 18 Apr 2019

Natalie,

Powerful stuff. THANK YOU for fighting back. 

Keep fighting! Men, women, boys, and girls are behind you. 

TobyA on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to marsbar:

Amusingly I'm also a secondary school teacher, and mardy kids does go with the territory but if a kid makes a threat of violence or a sexually inappropriate comment they are in very serious trouble very rapidly - external agencies and all that.

Mr Whippet seems not to get that there is a line. 

DubyaJamesDubya - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to bouldery bits:

> I'm going to go out on a limb here Paul and guess you're over 40?

That young?

Mick Ward - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to marsbar:

> Dick pics are over the line of what any decent society tolerates. 

Absolutely.

Nobody should have to put up with this crap.

Mick

Presley Whippet on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to TobyA:

At no point have I condoned the behaviour which is abhorrent. 

In my 20 years as a secondary school teacher, I did not condone poor behaviour. This did not mean I was not prepared for it. 

You can approach the issue as an idealist or as a realist. The realist is better prepared to deal with any problems. 

6
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> You can approach the issue as an idealist or as a realist. The realist is better prepared to deal with any problems. 

And the idealist is better prepared to prevent the problems occurring in the first place.

Alan

2
planetmarshall on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> You can approach the issue as an idealist or as a realist. The realist is better prepared to deal with any problems. 

We now live in a society where women can vote, humans are not considered property and homosexual activity is not criminal. All of these things have come about because of the actions of idealists.

marsbar - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to Presley Whippet:

They are dealing with it.  They shouldn't have to.  

Timmd on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> Changing the subject slightly (please.....!), did anyone else find it surprising seeing Lynn Hill bracketed with Isabelle P and Catherine D as women climbers who increased their profile by their glamour?

> I would have thought Lynn H was remarkable not for doing this but for not doing it; her appeal to me was always the opposite. She struck me as someone who absolutely refused to play that particular card and demanded to be judged on her enormous abilities in a gender-free way.

> jcm

That was my perception of Lynn Hill too, that she just got on with being a kick ass climber.

alexm198 - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to tlouth7:

Hear hear. Thank you, Natalie and UKC, for such an erudite piece of journalism. Appalling that this is the reality for female athletes, and power to you for helping to shine a light on it.

Shame about some of the bellends in the comments. 

4
mark s - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

My wife had an Instagram account. She had a cock pic sent to her. She scanned his account and found his mum and sisters. Also found his friends. She then forwarded first to his mum saying " your son thinks this is acceptable" she then sent it to his sister's and male and female friends explaining how the little rat thinks this is how to treat women.

He mailed her begging her to stop as it was ruining his life. She sent it to more. He mailed again from another account after she blocked him. 

He said everyone is laughing at him now.

I would have loved to have seen his face when his mum questioned him.

I doubt he did it again 

3
In reply to deepsoup:

Hi deepsoup, I spoke with Osprey who said that if a woman wins the competition and would like the women's version of the pack they will happily provide one, stock depending. They also said that they will ensure that there's men's and women's versions of prizes available in future competitions by default, where applicable.

I've also posted this in competition thread to make it clear for anyone looking at the competition.

In reply to Timmd:

> That was my perception of Lynn Hill too, that she just got on with being a kick ass climber.

Whilst I agree with both of you that there is a difference between Lynn Hill and Isabella and Katherine in their approach, I do have a nice little Lynn Hill anecdote from the 80s..

We were climbing at Buoux and Lynn was there. We were all sharing quickdraws and ropes and then Lynn needed to do a route for the photographer who had got up on a rope. At this point she reached in her bag and started pulling out bright and slightly more racy clothing and held them up to herself asking myself and Henriette our advice by doing a sort of fashion show. "What about this little yellow number?" she asked, doing a fake model pose with a kinked hip and pouting lips. She cycled through a bunch on things and ended much more brightly dressed. So she did play the game, only with a pleasant dismissive sarcastic attitude.

What Henriette could never get over was Lynn's perfect unblemished legs when she only needed to take one step off the ground to get a scuffed knee. Hard climbing without damaging your knees - now that takes talent!

Alan

deepsoup - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to Alexa Puschia:

> I get that the author is trying to "raise awareness" or something like that, but isn't this just... common knowledge?

It might be common knowledge among women with a social media presence, or women generally perhaps, but no - on the whole I don't think it is.  You can see it in some of the replies in this thread, there is a bit of "Jeez, I had no idea." and there's also a bit of "Nah, don't believe you."

If you don't receive dick-pics and you don't send them either, it would be way too easy to just never know this is a thing.  Let alone more subtle and insidious creepy behaviour.

I think you're wrong about this article preaching to the choir.  Whether it changes anyone's attitude in the end or not I think it's pretty clear it's reached a wee bit beyond that.  Peer pressure is a powerful thing, men who aren't aware of this shit need to know it is a thing so that the men who do it can begin to realise that it's other men as well as women who think their behaviour is creepy a.f. and just plain unacceptable.  Even those of us who are in the choir could do with a reminder now and then how important it is to call out this kind of nonsense when we see it.

Nobody ever changes their mind while shields are up in the discussions in a thread like this, but sometimes I think people do go away and think about stuff later, maybe change their attitudes a little bit. Quietly, slowly, after the the thread gets archived.  I think Andrew Kin is just plain wrong about some stuff but he strikes me as a decent thoughtful guy, and it's probably a good thing that he's stuck his head above the parapet and voiced some stuff that others are undoubtedly thinking but not saying.

Who knows, maybe there's even one person here who's sent a dick pic before and won't be doing it again.  That'd be a result, eh?

tlouth7 on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to mark s:

> My wife had an Instagram account. She had a cock pic sent to her. She scanned his account and found his mum and sisters. Also found his friends. She then forwarded first to his mum saying " your son thinks this is acceptable" she then sent it to his sister's and male and female friends explaining how the little rat thinks this is how to treat women.

Kudos to her! I think this is really effective because it completely reverses the power dynamic of the situation, which after all is what this stuff is often about.

The problem* is that too often the receiver of abuse does not feel safe to escalate in this way, especially in the case of repeated harassment/stalking. A major difference between the male and female experience seems to be that men (coming from a position of historic power) are much less likely to feel threatened by what they receive. This is apparent from the different language used by the men questioned: "suggestive" (Jorg) vs "worrying" (Natalie). I think this makes it easy for men to dismiss the problem, because how often have we felt genuinely threatened in such a situation**?

*In addition to the fact that this happens at all.

**see also: walking home alone, etc.

HGavrilov - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

I couldn't have phrased it any better. I've tried to have a discussion on the actual Instagram account, however, as soon as anybody expresses an opinion slightly different than what's being preached in the specific post, they're faced with a massive female backlash completely disregarding any other opinion but their own and doing so in an offensive manner. We live in times of a trendy unhealthy female bias and also times where everybody is offended by anything and everything and they make a big deal out of it like it matters. What's considered an insult to one is a compliment to another. That's a personal and highly subjective matter. Not talking about inappropriate pictures but in general. 

27
tlouth7 on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to HGavrilov:

I hope you see the irony in objecting to the fact that "everybody is offended by anything" while also feeling that the backlash to your comments is done "in an offensive manner".

I agree that it should be possible to have an adult conversation, in which I would hope to persuade you that we do not "live in times of ... unhealthy female bias", but rather articles like the one this thread is about are a reasonable response to persistent online abuse that is predominantly directed towards women.

As a counterpoint to your (and Andrew Kin's) position that the national conversation is skewed towards women's problems I would highlight the work of the Movember Foundation which is a massive movement promoting improvements in men's mental health. I am not saying that there isn't space for more articles on both men's and women's issues (and various other groups), but it seems unreasonable to attack an article (and instagram account) highlighting a real problem that many women face.

https://uk.movember.com/mens-health/mental-health

Andrew Kin on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to mark s:

Now that’s the kind of suggestion i like.  Powerful response to deal with the issue.  Imagine if all these people sending pics were ‘outed’.  

wbo - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to HGavrilov: .given that youre a young white male in one of the richest countries , all down to luck, it's hard to take complaints of an unhealthy bias against you very seriously.

5
La benya - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to HGavrilov:

How does article Manifest ‘unhealthy female bias’? Are you suggesting that there is a bigger problem for males with online abuse and dick pics which is being ignored in favour of this coverage?

if you want to read a male perspective on this issue, that’s fine. But this article is not the problem. 

planetmarshall on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to HGavrilov:

> ...as soon as anybody expresses an opinion slightly different than what's being preached in the specific post, they're faced with a massive female backlash completely disregarding any other opinion but their own and doing so in an offensive manner.

Man up, snowflake.

6
marsbar - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to HGavrilov:

You really believe that don't you?  

If the world was female biased we'd be earning more and not getting harassed.  

I'm sad for you.  

It would be nice if we had a world where we all looked after each other.  Where all the men would respond as many have on this thread, and where boys don't get told that they don't get to cry.  

In the news this last week or 2 is a teenage girl killed for reporting her headteacher for touching her up.  A little boy fighting for his life because a man was pissed off about being rejected by a woman and wanted to kill someone so he threw him off a balcony. A woman killed by her ex after being charged with wasting police time.   That's just off the top of my head.  

Toxic attitudes to women are an issue.  Raising them isn't criticism of the many many good men.  Get over yourself.   

1
HGavrilov - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to tlouth7:

There's no irony here. I don't feel offended by the backlash. What I meant is that the offensive reply was the default reaction rather than having an educational discussion on the subject.

By unhealthy female bias I meant in terms of reporting and media attention. I'm not having anything against this website or this specific article, but in general. I recognize that there are means of support for males as well as females. I believe there's a predominant media bias towards female issues.

My main problem is that, based on my experience, whenever I try to have a conversation or get better understanding, people often reply in a militant matter. I think it's important to have a discussion. Instead of having channels where you're just sharing posts "highlighting" the issue, why not have more conversations with males. It's far more productive having a discussion. Some of the disrespectful responses here I've seen towards Andrew provoke nothing but anger. This leads nowhere.

6
HGavrilov - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to wbo:

I'm not complaining about bias towards me. I'm just stating that I believe there's a bias in reporting. I'm a young white male who has spent a large portion of his life in a developing country with very different views and culture, especially when it comes to women (in a good way). Don't assume you know a person's story based on their ethnicity or current residence.

1
HGavrilov - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to marsbar:

Toxic attitudes are an issue in general. The people that act in a certain way towards a woman generally hurt people (physically and emotionally) irrespective of gender. 

1
timparkin - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

You mention that you think the article is 'lazy', however you have noted there is a problem with boys that isn't being addressed but you can't be arsed to write anything about it yourself. 

Natalie has seen a problem, made the effort to research it, wrote a very well constructed article about the problem and she's being called lazy..... Hmmm

The big reason why this article makes sense in a climbing world and on a climbing web site is the specifics of how mid to professional level female climbers get exposed to these images. Yes, I realise dick pics might be something many people know about. They probably didn't know the level of 'exposure' that different people in the climbing world have to them.  This is of interest.

The different with your mentioning of mens problems is that you don't have a specific context in climbing and the general problems of puberty, depression, pressure, suicide, etc. have been covered a great deal already. If you can find a climbing 'angle', go out and write an article about it so we can say "everyone knows about this, you're just being lazy".

I know why Natalie didn't write such a specific article. Do you think she would be the right person to write about boys/men and their problems around depressions, pressure etc? 

Oh, and men sending dick pics is new for the main reason that the digital world hasn't been around that long. You'd have to be go a lot further to take your own dick picture, get it developed and printed at boots, find the climbers physical address and post it to them. 

Also, many people have noted that they didn't realise this happens so often if at all. The more people aware of this, the more open people can talk about it, the better in my opinion. 

The bottom line is that you derailed the forum thread response to an article about an important issue when the correct response would have been to either start a thread of your own about it or even better, write your own article.

oh, and a massive congratulations for an excellent piece of journalism Natalie!!

Post edited at 12:20
tlouth7 on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to HGavrilov:

> There's no irony here. I don't feel offended by the backlash. What I meant is that the offensive reply was the default reaction rather than having an educational discussion on the subject.

I think that this is an emotive topic, and one which has historically been dismissed by a vocal minority (of men). Thus people on both sides become rapidly defensive which as you say is not conducive to conversation.

> By unhealthy female bias I meant in terms of reporting and media attention. I'm not having anything against this website or this specific article, but in general. I recognize that there are means of support for males as well as females. I believe there's a predominant media bias towards female issues.

My opinion is that if there is an imbalance in media reporting of women's vs men's issues then it is merely a reflection of the imbalance in the actual issues facing those groups.

TobyA on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to HGavrilov:

I'd be interested in which developing country that was and in what way attitudes there are better towards women?

3
gman2012 on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

The people responding to this topic are obviously male climbers who have a need to engage with others on social media, strangely this appears to be the same group who are sending dick pics.

2
bouldery bits - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to gman2012:

> The people responding to this topic are obviously male climbers who have a need to engage with others on social media, strangely this appears to be the same group who are sending dick pics.

Well, you've just engaged with it....

HGavrilov - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to La benya:

Yes, I'd say there's a bigger issue being ignored. Most media attention, including this article, deals with an effect rather than the cause. The effect being inappropriate behaviour. The cause? Poor education.

I wouldn't dream of acting in such inappropriate way. What makes some males different from others? Let's say I'm a believer of nurture over nature. What we should be focusing on is not victimising women but educating men. Yes, it is common sense - inappropriate pics are bad. It's also common sense that abusive behaviour is present and always has been in society. So why focus on the effects of that behaviour rather than the causes? The articles we should be reading must be about how to better educate people from a young age. How to have an immersive equal upbringing irrespective of genders and irrespective of the sport/activity. That's something that would have a point. Reading something we already know does nothing. Victimizes women, does nothing to change the cause of the issue and generally provokes anger from every reader rather than inspiring a more productive outcome. Why not focus on communities or acts which show people treating others with respect and dignity? Focusing on the negative produces more negatives. Show the good things happening and let that inspire a positive change.

8
Wilberforce - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Fantastic article; well written, balanced and nuanced. Though I can't help wondering if it was all the result of a UKC staff-room bet on getting “Schrödinger’s Pussy” into an article?! I snorted coffee all over my desk when I read that sentence.

Dick pics are a clever choice for framing the broader subject matter of the piece. They have that “Wait, what?!” factor and encapsulate, in a relatable way, the weirdness of online behaviour and male entitlement (the women-as-bodies Solnit quote is, tragically, on the nose) inflicted on women – especially those in the public eye.

The calculus of exposure that female athletes are forced to make on a daily basis is, whilst unfortunate, fascinating; the way individuals trade-off between income, audience/sponsor/peer approval and ‘purity of purpose’ based on their professional, social and sexual capital.

And bravo Natalie: both for making the important point that women have the agency to make those trade-offs and for being honest that individuals can be rewarded (at a price) by the same gender dynamics which produce dick pics and other forms of sexual violence (which in no way exculpates either the dynamics or the violence).

All too often, discussions of this nature boil down to a binary narrative; it is good to read about women as active participants who both shape and are shaped by social forces – Schrödinger’s pussy indeed.

marsbar - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to HGavrilov:

OK,  I agree with you, so what shall we do to educate?

Who is the best person to provide this education? 

One thing that is very female biased for a number of reasons is education of under 11 year olds.  

What should we do about that?  

HGavrilov - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to TobyA:

I'd rather not name it here because then there'll be people trying to counter argument it and it'll distract from the main point. I can private message you if you'd like?

I can give a bit of background on myself and my views though.

I was born in a country where sexist and racist behaviour is very common and not really discouraged. I was brought up not following these trends but to have respect towards all people. Then I moved to a country where racism was also present however this time towards the white population. Sexism was a different story though. Women were glorified to a point of being seen as sacred. Men wouldn't dream of hurting or disrespecting a woman in any way, shape or form. The woman is the main decision maker in the household. The guy does the dirty work. Men work as security guards and taxi drivers, women work in courts, politics, highest positions in businesses. There are men in such positions too but women are the majority. Pay is equal irrespective of gender.

This is a fact due to centuries of good upbringing. So see, just because my ethnicity is white and i happen to live in the UK, doesn't mean my outlook is not far more diverse and doesn't mean I'm coming from a position of cultural bias. IveI experienced two vastly different cultures during a time of my life when I was still developing my own views and morals.

4
Misha - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

To be fair, putting on brighter clothes for photos is just sensible, whoever you are.

Misha - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to HGavrilov:

Ok here’s a reasonable response. Women don’t generally send pictures of their anatomy to men. Women don’t generally discriminate against men. Women don’t generally abuse, rape and murder men. Clearly there are exceptions and they do get reported. But the reason the media mostly reports women being the victims is that the vast majority of the victims of various types of abuse and worse are women at the hands of men.

I’m talking about gender based abuse here, clearly there are men who are abused (mostly by other men) for other reasons such as ethnicity and sexual orientation.

I agree with your comments about education.

Judging by your name, I’m guessing you are from Bulgaria. I know that sexist and racist attitudes are a lot more prevalent in Russia and I imagine it may be similar in some of the other Eastern European countries. However it’s slowly changing, which is a good thing. 

Post edited at 14:06
2
HGavrilov - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to Misha:

Reasonable response indeed. I agree with pretty much everything you said. I'd just like to add to it.

The vast majority of victims of certain types of abuse are women - sexual abuses mostly. Bullying affects males and females equally. Assault, stabbing, and murder affects more males than females.

In terms of reporting, a lot of male cases don't get reported because males don't feel it's okay to talk about that stuff. That's also an issue. It's an issue that can be fixed quite easily through conversation and education.

Most violence has always come by men. It is in our nature. That's a fact, not an excuse. I said earlier I believe that nurture rather than nature is responsible for a person's actions so I'll keep stressing that it's important to work towards better education and I'm glad you agree with me here.

I'm not coming from a position of ultimate privilege and no experience of male violence. I've been bullied for years - for the fact I always showed emotion (love and sadness), for liking dramas over action films, for reading poetry rather than whatever other guys read, for getting good grades and studying rather than skipping class with the cool kids, etc. I always tried to find the ultimate cause of these people's behaviour and it was often obvious - busy parents, overly strict parents, unsupportive parents, overly supportive parents, abusive parents. In almost every case it could've been traced to parenting. These kids wanted to be liked and to fit in and to dictate who else fits in. They saw being different as a weakness and preyed on that weakness so they become more accepted. Often jealousy was a driving force. They feared they'd lose their position of power if someone was seen as cooler than them. If they lost that position then everyone would just ignore them and give them zero attention, the way their own parents were treating them and that would be unbearable.

So main point - we fix this through parenting and education.

You're right about where I was born. It is changing in recent years but slowly and with much resistance. I left in my teens and the situation was still sad back then.

Post edited at 14:35
1
98%monkey - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Sexual equality is great.

Presumably some women like being thought of has a beautiful object of gratification and others don't.

Just like some men are horrified at the antics of the moron's of their gender that have the potential to tar them all.

Perhaps some acknowledgement of the decent blokes in the world might do more to waking the morons up than just slamming them - not that they don't deserve this - education & encouragement have historically and continually shown to be the best modifiers of human behaviour both good and bad.

Post edited at 15:32
2
dsh - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to HGavrilov:

> I couldn't have phrased it any better. I've tried to have a discussion on the actual Instagram account, however, as soon as anybody expresses an opinion slightly different than what's being preached in the specific post, they're faced with a massive female backlash completely disregarding any other opinion but their own and doing so in an offensive manner. We live in times of a trendy unhealthy female bias and also times where everybody is offended by anything and everything and they make a big deal out of it like it matters. What's considered an insult to one is a compliment to another. That's a personal and highly subjective matter. Not talking about inappropriate pictures but in general. 

I really don't understand the continued complaints about unhealthy female bias and other similar complaints on here. What I see is people trying to change the situation so that women don't have to go about their lives dealing with this shit. It's about raising awareness, as even by this thread you can see there is a lack of it. Also getting men to call out other men for this shit. It's not about bias towards women, it's about correcting ingrained societal behaviour of inequality and wrongdoing. Men don't have to deal with the same fears on a daily basis that women do, and if it seems like it is being "trendy" it's only because attitudes are starting to change on a larger scale so the issues are given the attention that they deserve, rather than being ignored.

Another example. I generally don't have to worry about safety from other people when I go about my hobbies (climbing, mtb etc). Even though my wife is generally going to do hers (photography) in the same kind of locations she is always worried about it. I know many women have similar experiences in situations that men just take for granted about being risk free. So why is it such a problem to put a concerted effort into changing society for the better so women are able to participate without this risk that men just take for granted.

Nuddy - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Is it just me, or do others find that articles are getting longer and longer and longer? I couldn't possibly read the whole thing. Isn't the idea of journalism to precis stuff?
I only came across it in my younger years very few times - but it seems amazing from what I read how many arseholes and unpolite people are around today. Too many people on a too small world? What's wrong with these people? Don't they realise that they will be treated badly if they treat others this way? (The only way of living together). Are they people who have been badly treated in/from society? Guess there's no way out of the situation.

9
Timmd on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to HGavrilov:

>....as soon as anybody expresses an opinion slightly different than what's being preached in the specific post, they're faced with a massive female backlash completely disregarding any other opinion but their own and doing so in an offensive manner. We live in times of a trendy unhealthy female bias and also times where everybody is offended by anything and everything and they make a big deal out of it like it matters...

What do you make of the perspective, that where one experiences a privileged position, when equality starts to happen it can feel akin to being oppressed?

Post edited at 18:24
3
UKB Shark - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to Misha:

> To be fair, putting on brighter clothes for photos is just sensible, whoever you are.

Good point. Ever prepared, Keith Sharples always packs a bright top in case his subjects don’t have any.

My perception of Lynn Hill chimes with JCM’s observation

Post edited at 19:03
purkle - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to willworkforfoodjnr:

Thank you. I hope life is working better for you. I'm also a survivor and I really appreciate people being honest about this stuff.

David Bennett - on 18 Apr 2019
In reply to 98%monkey:

> Just like some men are horrified at the antics of the moron's of their gender that have the potential to tar them all>

Completely agree with this. Guys who send unsolicited pictures of their d*cks to women need the full weight of the law applied.

Blanche DuBois - on 19 Apr 2019
In reply to HGavrilov:

> Assault, stabbing, and murder affects more males than females.

This seems to be a common belief, particularly amongst men.  But it simply isn't true.  The most common form of violent assault is domestic.  This is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men against women (and is massively under-reported incidently).  There are various sources of stats on this for the UK.  The link below gives a summary, but more details can be easily searched for.  

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2016/overviewofviolentcrimeandsexualoffences#levels-of-victimisation

Blanche DuBois - on 19 Apr 2019
In reply to HGavrilov:

> they're faced with a massive female backlash completely disregarding any other opinion but their own

Or to put it another way, some women have the temerity to disagree with you.

> and doing so in an offensive manner

I don't think this has occurred in this thread, so I don't know why you bring it up.

Post edited at 04:40
2
r0x0r.wolfo - on 19 Apr 2019
In reply to Blanche DuBois:

> > Assault, stabbing, and murder affects more males than females.

> This seems to be a common belief, particularly amongst men.  But it simply isn't true.  The most common form of violent assault is domestic.  This is overwhelmingly perpetrated by men against women (and is massively under-reported incidently).  There are various sources of stats on this for the UK.  The link below gives a summary, but more details can be easily searched for.  

It looks like the article contradicts this, despite it including harassment which is going to fall outside of the 'assault, stabbing and murder' mentioned in the post you quoted.

'Men were more likely to be a victim of violent crime measured by the face-to-face Crime Survey for England and Wales (CSEW) interview than women (2.2% of males compared with 1.4% of females1, Figure 1.8)2, with stranger violence showing the largest difference in victimisation between men and women (1.2% compared with 0.4%).'

It's true that women are likely to under report domestic violence, but men are much more likely to under report domestic violence due to shame men feel around being abused in this way.

Post edited at 07:49
Blanche DuBois - on 19 Apr 2019
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

You're correct.  I had misread: "However, the most common type of violence to be experienced on a repeated basis is domestic violence".  Cognitive bias in action.

Post edited at 08:37
1
payney1973 - on 19 Apr 2019
In reply to eroica64:

Agreed these people should be named and shamed, I think to say this is an aspect of climbing is off mark!

its a societal problem, people think because they sit behind a screen there is no consequence.

its awful and is happening I have no doubt, to female skiers, mountain bikers etc.

unfortunately social media is a major part of being a professional in any sport today, a major draw back is that it gives the general public a level of access that wouldn't be available 30 years ago.

Timmd on 19 Apr 2019
In reply to r0x0r.wolfo:

Without aiming this at you in particularly, I was thinking yesterday that during any discussion related to something to do with the genders, things can unhelpfully seem to become a competition in terms of 'Which gender has things worse?' when this kind of topic comes up.

When it's an article about females receiving unsolicited dick picks and unwelcome attention online, it's a little hard to see how this happens, or why it's relevant. The theory goes that the patriarchy is bad for men as well as women, due to how men are expected to be the strong ones, and the providers (among other things). 

Post edited at 10:53
1
Yanis Nayu - on 19 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2019/apr/19/lauren-miranda-teacher-topless-photo-speaks-out

This shit makes me so f*cking angry, much more than the dick pic stuff. 

tjdodd - on 19 Apr 2019
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

Completely agree.  I cannot believe the man who sent around the photo has had no action taken against him.  I hope she gets the outcome she wants but unfortunately it will be late and too little for the harm caused to her.

mysterion on 19 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Articles like this are a big reason why I'm reading UKC less and less these days

30
r0x0r.wolfo - on 19 Apr 2019
In reply to Timmd:

> Without aiming this at you in particularly, I was thinking yesterday that during any discussion related to something to do with the genders, things can unhelpfully seem to become a competition in terms of 'Which gender has things worse?' when this kind of topic comes up.

> When it's an article about females receiving unsolicited dick picks and unwelcome attention online, it's a little hard to see how this happens, or why it's relevant. The theory goes that the patriarchy is bad for men as well as women, due to how men are expected to be the strong ones, and the providers (among other things). 

To be fair, I was drawn in by someone stating something that didn't sound right to me and correcting it. I upvoted his comment accepting the correction by the way.

I often find something else more interesting that the original topic itself. It's pretty clear that women shouldn't be subjected to this kind of abuse so for me there is very little to discuss.

There's not really a unique climbing specific angle on this either. Women on the internet, especially those who have bigger profiles and maintain their social more rigorously for their job tend to receive more of it. Again, it isn't ok for casual users of social media to receive abuse and scaling that up as athlete's need to do these days doesn't make it any better.

There's some discussion to be had around how women and people in general sexualise themselves to help gain more followers on the internet and a correlation between this and sexual attention from fans or the general public. Again, it doesn't make a dick pic OK, but a comment on a shirtless instagram picture (male or female) on that person's physical appearance might not overstep the mark. 

In terms of interaction with fans, let's remember there's an awful lot of people on the internet. Some of them don't understand that people don't necessarily want any new friends, and that most of the time you're probably not going to strike a lasting friendship with someone you found cool and messaged once on twitter.

It's a bit sad, but sponsored athlete's want lots of attention in terms of followers, views, comments and anything monetizable but they aren't posting pictures of themselves training because they're lonely and they don't have time to have 20 one to one discussions about every post or tweet they put up. 

Not everyone thinks like this though and some people do try to make friends or strike up romances on the internet, some are even successful. Depending on the approach and the attractiveness of the other person these approaches may come off as creepy, charming or anything in between. There's plenty of grey area along with the obviously unacceptable stuff such as abuse and threats of violence.

For the grey areas, some people are better than others at dealing with unwanted but non-abusive attention and can kindly but strongly assert their boundaries.

For the none grey areas, clearly these people should pay a hefty social penalty for their actions (on top of any criminal penalties relevant). The name and shame approach may work quite well, I quite liked the example of forwarding abusive messages to the senders' friends and family. However, forwarding dick pics themselves could backfire with laws tackling the disseminating indecent images of other people out of revenge. 

Post edited at 17:03
1
Graham Booth on 20 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

Who the hell disliked this article?.

excellent, well written article...and slightly horrific eye opener..

Graham Booth on 20 Apr 2019
In reply to mysterion:

Good

1
buffalo606 - on 20 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

This article is important, powerful and sad and made me wonder, not for the first time, whether the world is becoming a better or worse place.  I read it a few days ago and, like a really amazing documentary/film/book that comes around only once in a while, I can't stop thinking about it.  But also thinking about what I can actually do to be a better male towards women.  I am a big fan of education as a tool for change and I would really appreciate any further literature on the subject that you came across while researching and writing your piece.  I was hoping to find a bibliography at the bottom that I could start reading through. 

In the words of yet another disgraced male "if you want to make the world a better place take a look at yourself and make that change" - I'm starting with the man in the mirror.

Andy Hardy on 20 Apr 2019
In reply to HGavrilov:>

Then I moved to a country where racism was also present however this time towards the white population. Sexism was a different story though. Women were glorified to a point of being seen as sacred. Men wouldn't dream of hurting or disrespecting a woman in any way, shape or form. The woman is the main decision maker in the household. The guy does the dirty work. Men work as security guards and taxi drivers, women work in courts, politics, highest positions in businesses. There are men in such positions too but women are the majority. Pay is equal irrespective of gender.

>

Where was that? Narnia?

timparkin - on 20 Apr 2019
In reply to mysterion:

> Articles like this are a big reason why I'm reading UKC less and less these days

As the editor of a magazine myself, I find this puzzling. Why don't you just skip the articles you're not interested in? Or is somebody forcing you to read every article at pain of top roping?

1
Graham Booth on 20 Apr 2019
In reply to timparkin:

Oxygen thief

4
L 88Dan - on 21 Apr 2019
In reply to Paul Sagar:

This may have already been said, but if your friends profile filters out/detects abusive content and makes it so that only the person who posted it can see it, what good does that actually do? there is no proof then that anything abusive has been said and I am guessing there will also be no record of it as only the poster can see it. I know it's not a nice thing to receive but if that is what it takes to make people realize what is actually happening online then so be it. as was said at the start of this thread, these people need to be named and shamed rather than being allowed to hide behind a filter or a social media user name.

1
marsbar - on 21 Apr 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

At school we teach "screenshot delete block" so the screenshot is evidence if needed.

1
In reply to everyone:

Thanks for discussing this topic here. We've had some interesting debates on social media, here in the forums and we've even received emails from male users asking for reading lists and thanking us for making them think about something they didn't know existed. I meant to respond earlier but this is the first chance I've had. 

Re Lynn Hill - I wrote:  'Lynn Hill, Catherine Destivelle, Isabelle Patissier - these golden girls of the 80s possessed the 'double threat' of top-end talent and beauty, which attracted brands and TV producers like flies around honey.' I said that Lynn and the other women were attractive, but I didn't say that Lynn (or the others) actively pushed her sex appeal. Lynn's sex appeal was certainly used by the media, whether or not she welcomed it. Alan's comment suggests she accepted it but didn't fully embrace it.

We do have more female-focussed content today, but I wouldn't say that our editorial content is now 'heavily weighted towards women.' We have an article about male mental health (https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/men_masculinities_and_mental_health-9530) and the vast majority of articles submitted and published are written by men. The majority of news reports concern ascents by men. A huge number of our gear reviews are written by men for men (something we are working to improve upon, but something which is also often limited by manufacturers as some products are generally produced to fit a male norm as they make up the biggest slice of the market)

Times are changing, though, as more women and girls get into climbing and society makes room for women's issues. As pointed out higher up, equality for women shouldn't mean less space for men. The toxic environment that the patriarchy contributes to is equally harmful to men - as people have mentioned above. @Andrew, chances are your son is growing up in a much more forgiving society than you did, and I think you should be grateful for your daughter's sake that we can openly discuss these issues in 2019. If your son (or anyone reading this) would like to write about the issues facing young male climbers during puberty, I'd be happy to read a draft. The female puberty and body image piece was prompted by an article in The New York Times discussing performance changes in female runners during and after puberty, hence the female focus. I did, however, point out the key difference between boys' and girls' experiences relating to performance: 'While adolescent males have the potential to exploit increased muscle mass and enhanced performance [1], mother nature dictates that females gain less metabolically advantageous tissue in the form of fat[...]' Of course there are emotional and physiological changes that will affect boys' performances at different stages of puberty and early adulthood, but the focus of the piece was on this typical development curve that throws many female athletes off course and which differs to that of young men. It seems like you are talking about body confidence issues, rather than issues relating to physical performance. 

Also, please don't infantilise the experiences of these female athletes - this is much more serious than your phrase 'receiving pictures of willies' suggests. I don't think you'd be using the same language if your wife or daughter were the carefully chosen recipient of unsolicited images of an erect penis. I'll keep up this 'lazy journalism' if it means discussions like these take place. 

I'll reiterate: if anyone wants to submit an article, or contribute to our Humans of Climbing series to share their climbing story, email me on natalie@ukclimbing.com. We've tried to make UKC more representative of the climbing community in recent years and we won't be put off by suggestions that we're now too 'female-centric'. If you don't like it, don't read it. Especially the potential upcoming piece on the menstrual cycle and its effects on performance. Might be a bit much!

Longform journalism isn't about writing précis. If you don't have the attention span, read a tabloid. 

Below is a copy and paste from a response I wrote in an International Women's Day thread last year, in which men were questioning the need for one, which is relevant:

"I disagree with women who push feminism into the realm of misandry, as I know that society's influence on men in making them emotionally closed books with a tendency to choose aggression as an outlet for their emotions is just as harmful. It all stems back to how we bring up children as I mentioned above. We're not taking away anything from men as Nick says - we're simply trying to open the site up to more women. For anyone interested, I'd suggest reading Simone de Beauvoir's The Second Sex for a fascinating look at the biological, social and economic bases for the subordinated position of women historically. To my mind, socio-economic class, race (and nationality/location of course) complicates attitudes towards inequality between the sexes. A woman of better economic standing will experience discrimination differently to a poorer woman - the same applies to men. Speaking from experience having grown up in a family from a lower class background, I sense that men of lower economic status often feel more in competition with women/threatened, since their status as a male with *some* privilege attached to them is their only trump card, as they don't have wealth or social standing to elevate them. If you're a man from a poor background and you're struggling to survive on a daily basis, I can see how the term 'privileged male' won't ring true and will cause resentment. There are plenty of rich misogynists in the world too, however.

Times are changing and climbing is a fantastic and increasingly diverse sport. It's not a question of superiority, but of equality. Elevating women shouldn't mean bringing men down, but I can understand the misunderstandings and deep-rooted issues causing some men to question IWD and the women's movement in general. It's all very complex, and often goes beyond questions of gender, as I've attempted to explain."

Post edited at 15:49
Mr Fuller on 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Thanks. One of the best posts on here in ages.

Out of interest, do you have the figures on percentage of male/female users of UKC? The forums are male-dominated, or at least that is the impression I have, but there are many more people reading this article and the thread that follows it who don't comment here, and who could be either men or women. 

Paul Sagar - on 22 Apr 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

It just cuts down the vast amount of bile and nastiness that the person in question has to look at. It also avoids enflaming the abusive poster as they think the abuse is getting through - if they think it's being "censored" that can often make the abuse worse, e.g. via DMs etc. It's designed to shield the person being abused, rather than get the abuser to change somehow. 

DaveHK - on 22 Apr 2019
In reply to Andrew Kin:

> Am i the only one who thinks this site is very heavily weighted towards women in its editorial writing?

​​​​​​When you're accustomed to privilege equality feels like persecution.

5
lithos on 26 Apr 2019

timely Cyber flashing report on BBC .....

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48054893

L tompits - on 27 Apr 2019

What a drama.

Women get naughty messages from people who society already agrees to be idiots.
On the other hand, incels don't get sex.

Get over yourself and your "identity."

27
marsbar - on 27 Apr 2019
In reply to tompits:

"Naughty" is trivialising the issue.

deepsoup - on 27 Apr 2019
In reply to tompits:

> .. incels ..

That's what they call themselves, but I think 'inadequankers' is a much better term for those guys.

Annabel Tall on 27 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

The disinhibition of the send button

As a politician I know it well. We police and legislate in the real world for reasons. The internet is a new and essentially completely unregulated world so we can’t be surprised that it’s getting uncomfortable. Social media freedom was an ideal; it has real world consequences in practice 

Out of interest both the serious social media issue’s I’ve had investigated led to young people with mental health issues who clearly needed more supervision and protection than they were getting.  I now don’t take any comments I get on social media to heart and tend to go through them with a group of mates in the pub! 

Happily i’ve never had any weird responses to my climbing/outdoor posts

Jon Stewart - on 27 Apr 2019
In reply to tompits:

> On the other hand, incels don't get sex.

The word "incel" is scary. From what I understand, it means people who've made not getting laid a central part of their identity and who hang about on internet forums telling each other how hopeless their lives are and will always be, how they've got no control over it, and egging each other on to kill themselves and calling that "dark humour" (and this is skipping over the really sinister parts). There are better ways to deal with the problem that are readily available to those who are open to them.

captain paranoia - on 28 Apr 2019
In reply to tompits:

> On the other hand, incels don't get sex.

And your point is, caller...?

Mick Ward - on 28 Apr 2019
In reply to tompits:

> Women get naughty messages from people who society already agrees to be idiots.

Not naughty - nasty and abusive.

> Get over yourself and your "identity."

Nope. Am not going to get over myself and would suggest that no-one else does either. Getting over yourself at worst makes you complicit in the abuse, at best condones it. Are you happy to put up with/encourage such nasty and abusive behaviour from people you agree are idiots? I'm not.

Mick

1
Yanis Nayu - on 28 Apr 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> The word "incel" is scary. From what I understand, it means people who've made not getting laid a central part of their identity and who hang about on internet forums telling each other how hopeless their lives are and will always be, how they've got no control over it, and egging each other on to kill themselves and calling that "dark humour" (and this is skipping over the really sinister parts). There are better ways to deal with the problem that are readily available to those who are open to them.

In my day you just listened to The Smiths and felt sorry for yourself. 

r0x0r.wolfo - on 28 Apr 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

So the article is 88-3. Not very surprising that most climbers (and people) are against (unsolicited) dick pics! Even the dislikers seem to be objecting to the portrayal of the issue rather than actually condoning the actions themselves.

Edit: 

The caption near the top of the article reads "Fresh in your inbox: a daily dick pic."

Who is getting daily dick pics? Jesus christ. 

Post edited at 13:24
PaulScramble - on 28 Apr 2019
In reply to bouldery bits:

> I'm going to go out on a limb here Paul and guess you're over 40?

I grew up in the eighties when flashers and child molesters were the exception not the rule.

1
The New NickB - on 28 Apr 2019
In reply to PaulScramble:

> I grew up in the eighties when flashers and child molesters were the exception not the rule.

I'm a similar age, I think what you mean is that they weren't talked about.

marsbar - on 29 Apr 2019
In reply to PaulScramble:

Hardly.  They just didn't flash you because you are a bloke.  

marsbar - on 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Whilst that is far from great, 

> The word "incel" is scary.....

>....egging each other on to kill themselves and calling that "dark humour" (and this is skipping over the really sinister parts). 

My major concern is those incels who think it's fine to kill other people. 

www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-us-canada-43892189

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43883052

https://www.smh.com.au/world/north-america/another-incel-shooter-yoga-studio-killer-wanted-to-crucify-american-whores-20181104-p50dvv.html

That's just from a 2 minute Google.   

Post edited at 05:53
Jon Stewart - on 29 Apr 2019
In reply to marsbar:

I tried to acknowledge that without implying anything about the guy who posted. I think the best advice for anyone who sees themselves as an "incel" is to stop going on those Internet forums now - in extreme cases, the path it leads down is terrifying. 

marsbar - on 29 Apr 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

It's radicalisation just as much as anything based on religion.  

L Old American - on 07 May 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

In some subtle ways, society has regressed in regard to gender parity, even compared to fifty years ago. The "liberated" time when I found climbing, 1968, also meant the addition of several young women to the college climbing club. On one climb in the early seventies, I remember a female friend nonchalantly changing her shirt, sans bra, at the base of a local crag - no big deal, for her or myself. Such an occurrence now would be unthinkable, it seems to me.

Yet, today's social media anonymity provides for a degraded perpetuation of the worst in mostly males who missed the repercussions of the sexual revolution. It turned out that male climbers were often really chauvinists if the opportunity allowed; condescending comments could be made with impunity, as any challenge would be brushed off because the recipient had "no sense of humor." Women who wanted to climb really had to be committed, and stand their ground. Vulgar route names, or most astonishing to me, actual giant penis holds for indoor route setting a couple years ago, reveal how ingrained and pervasive the behaviors remain.

The marketing of climbing, now particularly of bouldering competitions that conveniently prefer tight, minimal uniforms, wants to play both sides for the middle, but the message is hidden: If more of the competitors resembled Caster Semenya, and not Sasha DiGiulian, would the coverage be as extensive?

7
In reply to Old American:

> In some subtle ways, society has regressed in regard to gender parity, even compared to fifty years ago. The "liberated" time when I found climbing, 1968, also meant the addition of several young women to the college climbing club. On one climb in the early seventies, I remember a female friend nonchalantly changing her shirt, sans bra, at the base of a local crag - no big deal, for her or myself. Such an occurrence now would be unthinkable, it seems to me.

So in these halcyon days of near gender parity, the memory you use to illustrate it is that of a woman taking her top off. An event that was so normal that I assume you barely batted an eyelid, so much so that you can distinctly remember barely batting an eyelid 50 years on. Just like the time your male mate changed his trousers at the crag in ‘68 as well then? Shame that your memory of this day is that you saw her tits and not that she cranked the hardest test pieces at the crag. She may have done this but apparently it wasn’t as memorably normal.

Sounds very reminiscent to me of the”you can hold my ropes any time love” attitude that I remember of the clubs of a slightly later time.

... and meanwhile today women climb when, where and with whom they want on classics, test pieces or pretty much any route. Amazingly they manage to do this without taking their tops off at crags although I can’t work out whether you think that is a good or bad thing. Tits at crag - good, willy-shaped holds - bad?

Are you sure your problem isn’t with social media and a slightly prudish approach to language and indoor holds? All I can say is don’t climb in one of those limestone tufa caves if erotic-shaped holds bother you.

Alan

Post edited at 08:06
7
johncoxmysteriously - on 07 May 2019
In reply to Alan James - UKC and UKH:

What an extraordinary post. It would be hard to know where to start in replying.

Meanwhile, I remember climbing (once) with a chap whose practice it was (I learned) to change his entire outfit on arriving at the crag, including his underwear, as he didn’t like to be all sweaty from the walk-in while climbing. On this occasion it was a hot day and we walked up to Scafell, admittedly quite a sweaty experience. On arrival he stripped off entirely and spent some time walking around with the guidebook, holding conversations with other climbers, pointing up at the crag and asking ‘is that Ichabod?’ and so forth, while I prudishly tried to pretend he wasn’t with me. The whole thing was made more memorable by the fact that there was a Pinnacle Club meet on the crag.

In the light of your above reflections I’d be interested in your gender-based analysis of this incident.

jcm

Post edited at 09:59
6
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

> In the light of your above reflections I’d be interested in your gender-based analysis of this incident.

I don't know what your point is here John. Sounds like a weirdo to me.

What I wouldn't do is use his behaviour to illustrate a general point about anything in particular, except maybe the behaviour of weirdos.

Alan

Post edited at 10:11
5
Lemony - on 07 May 2019
In reply to Old American:

> The marketing of climbing, now particularly of bouldering competitions that conveniently prefer tight, minimal uniforms, wants to play both sides for the middle, but the message is hidden: If more of the competitors resembled Caster Semenya, and not Sasha DiGiulian, would the coverage be as extensive?

Have you actually watched any bouldering world cups? That's a really bizarre take on people wearing shorts and singlets for exercise.

L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to UKC Articles:

I hate to sound old fashioned, but is it surprising how much unwanted attention some of these girls get with the clothes they wear, or hardly wear as is the case with some of them. You see some of them wearing so little they may as well be naked.

40
deepsoup - on 07 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

The unwanted attention that "some of these girls" get is not because of the clothes they wear, it's because of the blokes who insist on giving them unwanted attention.

Wind your neck in = problem solved!

2
MonkeyPuzzle - on 07 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> I hate to sound old fashioned, but is it surprising how much unwanted attention some of these girls get with the clothes they wear, or hardly wear as is the case with some of them. You see some of them wearing so little they may as well be naked.

You do know women dress for other reasons than to turn men on, right?

1
L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

And why do they get unwanted attention? Because every photo they post on social media shows them wearing next to nothing. I'm not saying they deserve the abuse by any means. So those who have misunderstood my point and have once again disliked my comments can wind their neck in and feck right off while their doing it. I think we need to make the dislike list public too. I have only been here a short while and already I can't believe how many cowards hide in secrecy behind the dislike button.

39
john arran - on 07 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

Victim-blaming will always deserve any number of dislikes, whether owned up to (like mine) or not.

L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

What does the reason matter? Women and or girls usually wear little to no clothing to make men and or boys look at them. Then when men and or boys do look at them they call those men and or boys all names under the sun. As I said it might sound a little old fashioned, but look at the way some of them dress and or the lack of clothing they wear. There is more skin than clothing on show. Then they act shocked and or surprised when men and or boys send them intimate photos or say inappropriate things in private massages. I am not the only one who has suggested that the lack of clothes worn by these girls is in some way to blame for the unwanted attention these girls get, stragnely once again my comments are the first to be disliked.

39
JoshOvki on 07 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

Bet you are a freaking nightmare on the beach! All them "girls" wearing nothing but basically under ware, practically asking for abuse.

Maybe it is because they feel comfortable wearing what they are wearing, maybe it helps them climb stuff that I could even see the first move never mind pull it, maybe it is just for shits and gigs. At the end of the day it is up to them what they wear, and up to us to shrug and move on, not be a dick about it.

1
L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to john arran:

In that case people should reply with their own comments instead of hiding like a coward behind the dislike button. If you have something to say you should be brave enough to say it instead of hiding.

11
JoshOvki on 07 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

Is it more or less cowardly than sending a dick pick via email?

1
L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to JoshOvki:

I'm not being a dick about anything and I am certainly not saying or even suggesting that these girls deserve the abuse they get, I am also not victim blaming either. But surely these girls must know what to expect by now, by now they must have worked out that when they post half naked pictures of themselves on websites full of men or boys looking for such photos, they are going to get a certain response from those men or boys.

21
JoshOvki on 07 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> I am also not victim blaming either. But surely these girls must know what to expect by now

Put down the beer, go to bed, read this back in the morning.

> they are going to get a certain response from those men or boys.

Why?

L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to JoshOvki:

At least when an email is sent there will be a record of who sent it and when and who they sent it to. the dislike button is anonymous. Ok so email addresses can be faked but there will still be a record of someone sending an email to someone else.

13
MonkeyPuzzle - on 07 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> What does the reason matter? Women and or girls usually wear little to no clothing to make men and or boys look at them.

Really? Not comfort for sport, or to look good for themselves on a night out, or simply having the misfortune of being shaped like a woman in clothes that fit? 

> As I said it might sound a little old fashioned 

No no, being astoundingly ignorant and lacking empathy is currently right on trend.

> look at the way some of them dress and or the lack of clothing they wear. There is more skin than clothing on show. Then they act shocked and or surprised when men and or boys send them intimate photos or say inappropriate things in private massages.

They "act" shocked? Are you about to say that they like it really, because it sounds like that's where you're going.

> I am not the only one who has suggested that the lack of clothes worn by these girls is in some way to blame for the unwanted attention these girls get, stragnely once again my comments are the first to be disliked.

I don't know, you go around with your played-out, cliched, victim-blaming posts for all to see and then you act like you're shocked and surprised at the dislikes. You know exactly what you're doing, don't you, you little tease?

L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to JoshOvki:

You tell me why. But according to this article that is exactly what has been happening. A young lad browsing twitter facebook or instagram spots a girl climbing or posing wearing next to nothing. Somewhere in the brain of these people will be a little voice that tells them if they fire a few inappropriate/sort of funny comments at this girl she will fall in to your arms. If that fails send her a photo of the twig and giggle berries and see what effect that has on her. I'm not sigmund fraud and I have no idea why these lads think that speaking to/treating girls the way they do will win their affections so don't even ask me.

12
L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

The only thing you missed was a solution to this problem, which would be no problem for you if you are as smart as you think you are.

6
L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to JoshOvki:

I'm not drinking, but your comment suggests you are. If you are in fact drinking on a school night I think you have far more serious problems than a few girls getting nasty messages on social media.

8
JoshOvki on 07 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

No idea why, but I am not the one saying 

  • but is it surprising how much unwanted attention some of these girls get
  • they are going to get a certain response from those men or boys
  • But surely these girls must know what to expect by now
  • And why do they get unwanted attention? Because every photo they post on social media shows them wearing next to nothing. 
  • Then they act shocked and or surprised when men and or boys send them intimate photos or say inappropriate things in private massages

Although it could be because some people are saying it is their own fault (although no victim blaming... obviously) so they think it is perfectly acceptable behaviour. Perhaps we would be better off saying "This is not okay!" and not any of the above?

L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to JoshOvki:

Again you can look at that any way you want. Why do girls were tiny bikinis to the beach? Because they want to show off their body to make other girls jealous and to make men/boys look at them. After attracting the attention of several men or boys, the usual response from said bikini clad girl is what is that pervert looking at. that pervert as you so call him is probably looking at a girl who wore a particular bikini in order to attract male attention, a girl who once they receive said male attention suddenly change their mind and decide they don't want male attention and so take this opportunity to call said male all names under the sun.

27
JoshOvki on 07 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> than a few girls getting nasty messages on social media

Oh do f*ck off, this is not some little problem that effects "a few girls". 

Post edited at 22:59
L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to JoshOvki:

You can say what you like, it doesn't bother me. I'm not the one with the problem here.

16
L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to JoshOvki:

Oh do find the wind in button on your neck, also find the button that put's your nose back in to joint as well.

22
john arran - on 07 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> But surely these girls must know what to expect by now, by now they must have worked out that when they post half naked pictures of themselves on websites full of men or boys looking for such photos, they are going to get a certain response from those men or boys.

You're right, of course. Girls and women should know their place, and certainly should not dress in such a way as to appear in any way attractive to pathetic morons looking to blame someone for their social inadequacy.

JoshOvki on 07 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> I'm not the one with the problem here.

Too right you are not the one with the problem. You ARE the problem.

1
L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to JoshOvki:

> Oh do f*ck off, this is not some little problem that effects "a few girls". 


Well maybe if they didn't share photos of themselves wearing next to nothing they wouldn't get so much unwanted attention from males on social media.

29
JoshOvki on 07 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

If people knew how to act like civilised human beings they wouldn't get so much unwanted attention.

But obviously... you are not victim blaming right.

Post edited at 23:04
L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to john arran:

> You're right, of course. Girls and women should know their place, and certainly should not dress in such a way as to appear in any way attractive to pathetic morons looking to blame someone for their social inadequacy.

I am not said pathetic moron with social inadequacies, so why don't you find those who are and vent your anger on them instead of me if this shit bothers you so much. At least take your anger out on the guilty one instead of a random person.

Post edited at 23:06
20
Jon Stewart - on 07 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> At least take your anger out on the guilty one instead of a random person.

You're not random. You're someone who's saying that it's the women looking attractive who should change their behaviour, rather than the men sending dick pics. It's a shitty attitude, because it says that men can act like dickheads with impunity, while women have to sacrifice any reward they'd otherwise get for looking attractive in a picture unless they want to receive abuse.

It really is a shitty attitude, which is why you've got everyone's back up. You'd be better off considering that maybe everyone who's trying to explain why your attitude is shitty could have a point. And they really do.

1
JoshOvki on 07 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> I'm not drinking

Sorry, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> You're not random. You're someone who's saying that it's the women looking attractive who should change their behaviour, rather than the men sending dick pics. It's a shitty attitude, because it says that men can act like dickheads with impunity, while women have to sacrifice any reward they'd otherwise get for looking attractive in a picture unless they want to receive abuse.

> It really is a shitty attitude, which is why you've got everyone's back up. You'd be better off considering that maybe everyone who's trying to explain why your attitude is shitty could have a point. And they really do.


Don't try to put words in my mouth. Women can't just stop looking attractive, but they can stop taking photos of themselves wearing next to nothing as is the trend. That will mean the dick heads sending dick pics will no longer have an attractive female to drool over who is also very easily contactable. You take away the half naked pictures you take away the perverts reason for being there. But still these girls keep taking photos of themselves wearing very little, has no one every thought to ask why? If they share photos of themselves wearing next to nothing they are going to have plenty of males drooling over them, plenty of males making somewhat inappropriate comments towards them and some males sending them dick pics, with several more males breaking out the abuse when the girl ignores their previous messages. So why do they keep sharing such photos when they know full well what response they are going to get?

29
L 88Dan - on 07 May 2019
In reply to JoshOvki:

> Sorry, I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.


I don't need the benefit of the doubt. I wonder how many others share my thoughts, but refuse to say anything because they know the response they will get from the forum, which is the same response anyone on the forum would get if they choose to go against the masses.

12
Jon Stewart - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Don't try to put words in my mouth. Women can't just stop looking attractive, but they can stop taking photos of themselves wearing next to nothing as is the trend. That will mean the dick heads sending dick pics will no longer have an attractive female to drool over who is also very easily contactable. You take away the half naked pictures you take away the perverts reason for being there. But still these girls keep taking photos of themselves wearing very little, has no one every thought to ask why? If they share photos of themselves wearing next to nothing they are going to have plenty of males drooling over them, plenty of males making somewhat inappropriate comments towards them and some males sending them dick pics, with several more males breaking out the abuse when the girl ignores their previous messages. So why do they keep sharing such photos when they know full well what response they are going to get?

What we're discussing here is the balance of responsibility between the woman posting the picture that turns the man on, and the man who gets turned on and sends a dick pick.

I'm saying, and everyone else is seemingly saying, when you abuse someone, the responsibility is all yours. All human beings have to bear the burden of responsibility that is getting mildly titillated and controlling the urge to abuse the person that aroused you, mildly. You seem to be saying that women bear the burden of not arousing men, and we do not agree. We think that men bear the entire burden of responsibility for the dick pics, but you are arguing a different balance of responsibility with the implication that the dick pics cannot be controlled, and that women should not provoke them. 

And this is a shitty attitude. If we all think like this, we have a shit society to live in, one in which women and men do not have equal rights. So I urge you to rethink your position. There is nothing cool about "going against the masses" when the masses are saying that the earth is round, or that men bear all the responsibility for the abuse of women on social media.

If you want to cling to your nonsense position, maybe you should post links to the images you think women should stop posting in order to stop the dick pics, because you're talking in vague terms and I don't know what specifically you're talking about. (And many on here will know that I'm not asking because I quite fancy cracking one off to some picture of a 9a-sending babe). Maybe if you can show me that these athletes really are asking for the abuse by so over-sexualising their image, I might see at least partially what you're on about.

Post edited at 00:08
Oceanrower - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

I take it that, due to your attitude on this post and others, making friends wasn't the main reason for you joining the forum...

Post edited at 00:10
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I do agree that men bear the entire burden of responsibility for sending dick pics and of course they can be controlled and stopped all together. but if these men were not greeted with photos of half naked female climbers or athletes every time they log on to social media, they would be less likely or maybe not likely at all to even think about sending a dick pic to anyone.

I also never said or even suggested that female climbers or athletes posting on social media are asking for or deserve the abuse and or the dick pics they seem to get on a regular basis. I simply suggested that with some of the half naked photos they share of themselves climbing or engaged in some kind of sport, while not directly asking for abuse they are certainly not doing anything to discourage it. Ok so they may tell someone about it or complain about it however long later, in most cases it's too late to do anything about it by then.

Post edited at 00:41
17
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Oceanrower:

> I take it that, due to your attitude on this post and others, making friends wasn't the main reason for you joining the forum...


Shame, I thought that was exactly what I was doing. I thought it would be great to join a forum to find and talk to like minded individuals. Then I discovered that said individuals only want to talk to you if you like the same things they do and share the same views and opinions as them and everyone else on the forum. Otherwise they dislike everything you say regardless of whether or not they agree with what you have said, either that or they tear you apart for not liking the same things they like. 

I don't know why certain people can't look at photos of various scantily clad female climbers or athletes and just appreciate them for who they are and possibly also for the way they look. If that is what they want to do. I have never looked at a photo of an attractive female wearing not much clothing and instantly thought, I'll send this person a photo of my cock. Obviously the people that do that don't have that little voice in their head telling them not to do it. Having said that you shouldn't need a little voice in your head telling you not to take photos of your cock and send it to women you don't know and have never met.

4
captain paranoia - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

FFS. I guess this response is to try to make us forget the Decathlon thread; it certainly pales into insignificant bellendery compared to this outburst.

1
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to captain paranoia:

You are certainly living up to your name.

3
Andy Gamisou - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

>> I take it that, due to your attitude on this post and others, making friends wasn't the main reason for you joining the forum...


> Shame, I thought that was exactly what I was doing. I thought it would be great to join a forum to find and talk to like minded individuals.

It's to the credit of the UKC community that you seem to be failing to find many such "like minded" individuals.

1
MonkeyPuzzle - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Again you can look at that any way you want. Why do girls were tiny bikinis to the beach? Because they want to show off their body to make other girls jealous and to make men/boys look at them. After attracting the attention of several men or boys, the usual response from said bikini clad girl is what is that pervert looking at. that pervert as you so call him is probably looking at a girl who wore a particular bikini in order to attract male attention, a girl who once they receive said male attention suddenly change their mind and decide they don't want male attention and so take this opportunity to call said male all names under the sun.

This post is just outright concerning. So many red flags.

Why do men where trunks or shorts on the beach? Personally it's because they're comfortable to swim in and and lie around in hot weather. Why is it different for women, or could it be you like a good perv and want to justify it to yourself?

Notice that in the post above that the woman crying out for male attention is all your perception (read: in your head) but when the woman actually expresses their opinion that's them "suddenly changing their mind". Do you get angry then? Do they "act" all surprised when you do?

You need to follow Jon Stewart's advice and have a long word with yourself. Your posts have gone from "old fashioned" to genuinely troubling.

1
johncoxmysteriously - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

Dude, what the f*ck is wrong with you?

jcm

1
MonkeyPuzzle - on 08 May 2019
In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I'm hoping that '88' refers to his age or IQ rather than year of birth. Otherwise we're in big trouble.

Post edited at 08:26
1
TobyA on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> I'm not the one with the problem here.

I think you do, and I'm waiting for you suggest burkhas as the answer to it.

You might not know why you are in hole, but you very, very much are. I'd stop digging at least, then you might have some time to think about why you're in the hole and how you could go about trying to get out.

Jon Stewart - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> I do agree that men bear the entire burden of responsibility for sending dick pics and of course they can be controlled and stopped all together. but if these men were not greeted with photos of half naked female climbers or athletes every time they log on to social media, they would be less likely or maybe not likely at all to even think about sending a dick pic to anyone.

> I also never said or even suggested that female climbers or athletes posting on social media are asking for or deserve the abuse and or the dick pics they seem to get on a regular basis. I simply suggested that with some of the half naked photos they share of themselves climbing or engaged in some kind of sport, while not directly asking for abuse they are certainly not doing anything to discourage it. Ok so they may tell someone about it or complain about it however long later, in most cases it's too late to do anything about it by then.

You're being inconsistent. Either you agree that men bear the entire burden of responsibility, meaning that women can post pictures of themselves wearing what they want, or you think, as you say in your second para women "are certainly not doing anything to discourage" dick pics. Either men bear the responsibility so women shouldn't have to discourage anything, or women are partially to blame because they fail to discourage dick pics. You're trying to have it both ways, and as such your argument is invalid.

There is another way to try to argue your point, which might be what you're trying to say: that yes it's wrong that women should have to modify their behaviour because some men are unbearable arseholes, but from a pragmatic point of view, it would be sensible to just avoid the arsehole behaviour as doing so comes at no cost to the woman.

I'm afraid you'd be wrong about this too. Having to be careful not to elicit dick pics doesn't come at no cost. It means that women have to think "if I post this, is it too sexual? Will I get dick pics? I'd better not" when they're doing their social media thing. I wouldn't want to have my behaviour governed by a threat of abuse if I simply look a bit too hot (I'm unlikely to encounter this problem, being a scrawny forty year bloke who, shall we say, was never film star material even in my prime). That threat of abuse is a problem for women. Next, the woman has to forego the benefits of posting pictures of her looking hot - indeed, she's probably under pressure to do so for commercial reasons: more mildly titillating pics, more money for the sponsors. Who runs the sponsors? Probably men? And what's wrong with having a positive body image of yourself, feeling good because men find you hot, if you're a sports star with a hot bod and pretty face? Men can feel good about that when they post shirtless pics of themselves flexing on a 9a (the lucky ones with the good genes and whatnot), so why should women be denied that source of confidence?

So this pragmatic argument of "OK it's wrong, but why don't you just stop posting the mildly titillating pics for your own sake" just fails to recognise what women lose by doing so, and how it contributes to the way men pressure women to look hot, and then punish them for it.

You really should think again through your position. There is a very good reason why you're getting all this stick.

1
La benya - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

Here here. 

As as I said up thread, this is not something to have an opinion on. It’s not a matter of opposing views and one not being accepted by the masses. It’s the vast majority of decent people pointing out that you’re chatting shit. Dan- rather than getting defensive and resorting to the ‘they aren’t accepting of my opinion’ mindset. Take in what is being said, try and understand it and then just toy with the idea that you’re wrong.  Just give it a try. Just say to yourself- oh yeah, it’s not the woman’s problem for posting pics. It really is all the dick pic sending guys issue. They were right!

at which point you will have done something very few people have ever done- admit you were wrong- and you’ll gain the respect of many many people.  

1
john arran - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> You're being inconsistent. Either you agree that men bear the entire burden of responsibility, meaning that women can post pictures of themselves wearing what they want, or you think, as you say in your second para women "are certainly not doing anything to discourage" dick pics. Either men bear the responsibility so women shouldn't have to discourage anything, or women are partially to blame because they fail to discourage dick pics. You're trying to have it both ways, and as such your argument is invalid.

This kind of cognitive dissonance seems to be very prevalent at the moment, or maybe it's just current society is better at highlighting it. The difference between what he 'thinks' to be true (men's behaviour is solely responsible for dick pics) and what he 'feels' to be true (women share some of the blame and should be modifying their behaviour) is patently irreconcilable, and yet the 'feels' version wins out in his projected posts. Such a preference for emotion over rationality is disappointingly common and is the lifeblood of snake-oil salesmen and disreputable politicians.

DubyaJamesDubya - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> I don't need the benefit of the doubt. I wonder how many others share my thoughts, but refuse to say anything because they know the response they will get from the forum, which is the same response anyone on the forum would get if they choose to go against the masses.

Luckily this isn't the 1970s and the masses are (a little) more enlightened.

1
MonkeyPuzzle - on 08 May 2019
In reply to john arran:

True. With "feels" normally relabeled as "common sense" to try and add gravitas to a knee-jerk emotional response.

fotoVUE - on 08 May 2019
In reply to all:

Just to digress slightly, but still on topic.


Susan is a 16-year old climber and talented, she has won several local competitions and has just made it on to the British team. She has climbed 8a+ and E5 outdoors and bouldered V9.

She has a personal instagram, facebook and twitter account. Recently she has obtained gear sponsorship from several climbing and outdoor clothing companies.

Her sponsors want her to set an athlete profile on all social media channels and to grow her audience on these channels.

Susan and her parents want advice on how to run her athlete profile on these social media channels.

They have read Natalie's article and are familiar with the @chossyDM's instagram account.

What advice would you give them? 

What are the do's and do nots of running an athlete social media page, especially if you are young and female? 

How does she retain her privacy whilst raising her profile. 

How does she avoid online sexual abuse and worse, attention from obsessive stalkers?

What is best practice?

Anyone any ideas here.

All the best,

Mick Ryan
 

MonkeyPuzzle - on 08 May 2019
In reply to fotoVUE:

> What advice would you give them?

I don't want to mansplain but can only answer from a male perspective. 

Most important: absolutely do not use your personal SM accounts, i.e. where you would talk with your friends. Set up new pages for sponsored stuff and lock down the security on your personal stuff as hard as you can.

Disable DMs. Be polite and friendly, but maintain a professional distance - some men's abililty to delude themselves into thinking they have a chance defies all logic. More importantly, ask Hazel Findlay, Sasha DiGulian, Natalie Berry, Shawna Coxey, and whoever else she can get in touch with who has first hand experience.

> What are the do's and do nots of running an athlete social media page, especially if you are young and female? 

I'm none of those things, so won't pretend to answer.

> How does she retain her privacy whilst raising her profile. 

I'd say be really super careful about what information she shares on purpose and think about what she's sharing accidentally. What's in the background of that photo? Have I mentioned somewhere I actually like to go in my time off?

> How does she avoid online sexual abuse and worse, attention from obsessive stalkers?

Sadly, I'm not sure she's 100% in control of avoiding it. Limit it by, as above, not using DMs, ever; firmly but politely smacking down any amorous advances; reporting, blocking and deleting any abuse; and reporting any stalker-ish behaviour immediately. If she's asking herself "Has this guy stepped over the line?" then report it anyway and if it's nothing then no worries.

I would, however, demand that the sponsor pays for some kind of training for her, as these are hazards in the workplace, for want of a different term.

tjdodd - on 08 May 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Sounds like good advice.

I think the advice to ask Hazel Findlay, Sasha DiGulian, Natalie Berry, Shawna Coxey is really good - I assume Susan meets at least some of these on her travels.  Also Mina Leslie-Wujastyk.  I occasionally look at Hazel, Shawna and Mina's facebooks and they seem to have it right.  They post nice photos of their travels and climbing with some interesting text (each has a slightly different take on what they write about).  The resulting comments seem to be on the whole polite with a bit of adoration but that seems mostly tongue in cheek.  I don't think any of them respond to comments specifically so their follows don't expect them to be responded to. 

Turn off DMs.  Also agree that I would expect the sponsors and BMC to provide social media training by default.  If not I would assume the BMC can point you in the direction of where to look for training/support.

Above all I think she should aim to enjoy using social media and not make it a chore - Shawna seems to aim for one photo most days but no more than that and the others less so.  Accept that there will be some idiots around but hopefully that is a useful life lesson more generally.

JoshOvki on 08 May 2019
In reply to fotoVUE:

Get a picture of with her my mental image of Dax H (never met the guy but from what I can gather he is a slightly terrifying looking biker with lots of tattoos [although in my experience probably means he is a sweet heart]), holding a 12 bore looking particularly angry. Might deter a few bad comments.

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

I think a few people need to re read the article in question and keep reading it until it sinks in. I do think that the American female climbers and athletes of all ages seem to cop for more unwanted attention and or abuse than British female climbers and athletes of similar ages. I can't be the only one wondering why that is, but it's time to stop wondering as the answer is staring you right in the face and it's partly to do with a comment made by yours truly that left me open to a lot of stick. Pay particular attention to the quotes in the article given from UK and US female climbers and athletes giving details of the abuse they have received and what may have sparked such abuse and unwanted comments/attention.

Hazel Findlay for example said, I wouldn't want to post photos of myself in skimpy clothes in order to get more likes because I don't want that kind of following. I do find it sad that some of my better-received Instagram posts are ones that show more flesh or where I look nice.

Emma Twyford said, I'm fairly careful about what I post. Once in a blue moon I might post a skimpy shot or a bikini shot but I don't want people following me for sex appeal, because it does open you up to all sorts of weirdos. If only American female climbers and athletes had their head screwed on as well and were prepared to show as much restraint.

Neither of these girls or any other female climber in the UK gets anywhere near the amount of negative attention on social media as their American counterparts, otherwise they would have opened up and said so while being interviewed for the article that started this thread and would have no doubt shared similar stories or encounters as the American females that contributed to the article. Again am I the only one who read these comments and realized why attractive female climbers from America get so much unwanted attention on social media considering the lack of clothing they are wearing in the photos they post, compared to female climbers from the UK who are just as attractive but rarely if ever share photos on social media of them wearing next to nothing and get far less abuse and unwanted attention as a result?

Many people think I am the problem here. Having never sent inappropriate photos to anyone I don't know how I can be considered to be the problem, or someone who is part of or contributing to the problem. would someone care to enlighten me on that one?

27
Sir Chasm - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Many people think I am the problem here. Having never sent inappropriate photos to anyone I don't know how I can be considered to be the problem, or someone who is part of or contributing to the problem. would someone care to enlighten me on that one?

Because you're still claiming that it's the recipient's fault if a bloke sends her a dick pic.

MonkeyPuzzle - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

Bar staff should be allowed to serve drinks without people being sick on them or being threatened by drunkards just as women should be able to look sexy *if they want* without being sent unsolicited dick pics or otherwise receiving sexually aggressive messages/attention. Your comments may seem innocuous enough at first glance but they're on the very short slope to "they're asking for it".

Do you understand the difference between someone publishing photos for a general audience on the internet and sending someone photos directly?

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

Fine it's everyones fault. It would be sexist to blame men or women individually so I'll blame them both together. You know, fair and equal treatment and rights and all that shit.

Post edited at 16:03
29
john arran - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

You can lead a horse to water ...

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> Bar staff should be allowed to serve drinks without people being sick on them or being threatened by drunkards just as women should be able to look sexy *if they want* without being sent unsolicited dick pics or otherwise receiving sexually aggressive messages/attention. Your comments may seem innocuous enough at first glance but they're on the very short slope to "they're asking for it".

> Do you understand the difference between someone publishing photos for a general audience on the internet and sending someone photos directly?


There is a huge difference between a female climber posting a photo on social media to show everyone a new route or boulder problem they have just climbed and a female climber posting a photo of herself clinging to any random piece of rock while wearing next to nothing.

18
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to john arran:

> You can lead a horse to water ...


And with a bit of effort you can drown it.

10
Sir Chasm - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Fine it's everyones fault. It would be sexist to blame men or women individually so I'll blame them both together. You know, fair and equal treatment and rights and all that shit.

Ah, you're a moron. My apologies.

1
marsbar - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

The problem is those sending pictures and also those who defend those who do.  By blaming the recipient you are defending the perpetrator.  Do you really want to align yourself with these creeps?  Make excuses for them?  

If you aren't against them and clear that sending them is wrong regardless then you are part of the problem.  

marsbar - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

If someone wants to post a picture of themselves wearing a skimpy bikini regardless of sport it still doesn't mean it's an invitation to send them a picture of a penis. 

I'm running out of crayons and patience.  

Make your mind up.  Either you are the kind of man who condemns the perverts or you are the kind of man who says someone in a short skirt is asking for it.  

If you want to be a victim blamer then stop whining when  you get called out on it by the majority of decent men on here.  

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

This is where the forum weirdos come in to play. They slag you off if you blame someone and they slag you off if you blame no one. You can't win with people like that so why bother.

14
Stuart (aka brt) - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Fine it's everyones fault. It would be sexist to blame men or women individually so I'll blame them both together. You know, fair and equal treatment and rights and all that shit.

That's quite the insight into how your mind is working. Explains a lot. 

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to marsbar:

I get called out no matter what I say, so what difference does it make.

7
marsbar - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

You don't half talk some nonsense.  

> This is where the forum weirdos come in to play. They slag you off if you blame someone and they slag you off if you blame no one. You can't win with people like that so why bother.

jas128 - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Neither of these girls

Both Hazel and Emma are over 18 and therefore *women* and not *girls*. Girls lessens their achievements, and in the context of dick pics, infantilizes them and over sexualises them. You wouldn't refer to males of the same age as "boys", so don't do the same to females.

marsbar - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

You get called out when you are being a ****.  Stop being a **** and life will be better. 

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

A lot of people probably think the same but are too scared to say. Look at the way I have been chewed out because I don't think and like the same things as all the main players on the forum.

16
john arran - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> A lot of people probably think the same but are too scared to say.

Yes, look at the hundreds of anonymous Likes your moronic musings are getting, from people who agree with you but are too afraid to admit it.

When you're in a minority of one and everyone else on a general site populated by diverse people is a weirdo all seemingly out to get you, it may be a good time for introspection.

1
Stuart (aka brt) - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> A lot of people probably think the same but are too scared to say. Look at the way I have been chewed out because I don't think and like the same things as all the main players on the forum.

I hope they do stay too scared to say objectionable things as well. Coming out with guff doesn't make you a free speech champion by the way.

No one, it appears is going to change your mind and it appears you don't feel the need to go away and reflect a bit. How about drawing a line under it. You're getting grief for it and you can't in all honesty be enjoying it (unless you're a grade A troll). 

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to john arran:

Who cares anyway. I said what I said, if you have a problem with it, it's your problem.

11
MonkeyPuzzle - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> There is a huge difference between a female climber posting a photo on social media to show everyone a new route or boulder problem they have just climbed and a female climber posting a photo of herself clinging to any random piece of rock while wearing next to nothing.

Yes there is. Where we appear to differ is you think the latter can't complain if unsolicited pictures of strangers' genitals and/or sexually aggressive messages are sent to them. Is one of your messages mentioned in the article or something?

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Stuart (aka brt):

I am not enjoying this one bit, but then you aren't supposed to. It is free speech and everyone has a right to say what they want regardless of what a load of people on a forum think.

12
Sir Chasm - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> This is where the forum weirdos come in to play. They slag you off if you blame someone and they slag you off if you blame no one. You can't win with people like that so why bother.

You are a forum weirdo, you can't get it through your thick skull that unsolicited dick pics are the fault of the sender, not the woman who posted a picture of her ankle. And if you don't know why you bother why are you asking me? 

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Stop lying will you, I never said people aren't allowed to complain. You are complaining right now aren't you which clearly contradicts everything you have just said.

6
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

Please, just google images of Hazel Findlay or Mina Leslie-Wujastyk for example, then do the same with Sierra Blair Coyle and Sasha Digiulian and see the difference. once you see the difference in photos posted by said female climbers you may understand the difference between the responses they get.

16
Stuart (aka brt) - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> I am not enjoying this one bit, but then you aren't supposed to. It is free speech and everyone has a right to say what they want

No, they really don't. 

> regardless of what a load of people on a forum think.

Sigh. Just for a minute let's assume that you're right. 100% nailed on correct and it's everyone else who is wrong. We're not changing your mind. You're not changing ours. Time to find another project. This sort of shit is bad for people's mental health. 

MonkeyPuzzle - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Stop lying will you, I never said people aren't allowed to complain. You are complaining right now aren't you which clearly contradicts everything you have just said.

Everything you have written is clearly insinuating that. What the actual f*ck are you saying then? 

Sir Chasm - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Please, just google images of Hazel Findlay or Mina Leslie-Wujastyk for example, then do the same with Sierra Blair Coyle and Sasha Digiulian and see the difference. once you see the difference in photos posted by said female climbers you may understand the difference between the responses they get.

Post a couple of pictures where you think the women deserve to be sent dick pics. I'll tell you if I agree with you.

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

I never said anyone deserves anything. Plus I am not posting any photos on this forum, you lot would love that wouldn't you. Then you could really tear in to me, or at least try to because you think that I think dick pics are ok. You are all far more intelligent than me so why don't you give google a whirl yourselves instead of asking an idiot like me to do it for you.

8
joeldering on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

I can't believe this has descended into you attempting to shame individual people. And while hiding behind anonymity too.  Absolutely appaling.

Post edited at 17:14
Robert Durran - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

I think you may be struggling to understand the difference between these two statements:

(1)  A woman is more likely to be sent d*ck pics if she posts scantily clad photos.

(2)  A woman is partially to blame for being sent d*ck pics if she posts scantily clad photos.

Hint: Only one of them is true.

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to joeldering:

> I can't believe this has descended into you attempting to shame individual people. And while hiding behind anonymity too.  Absolutely appaling.

What would you like me to do, tell you who I am and where to meet me so we can have a more in depth discussion? What is really appalling is your spelling.

15
joeldering on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> What would you like me to do, tell you who I am and where to meet me so we can have a more in depth discussion?

No, thanks. Your comments in this thread make that sound thoroughly unappealing. I just think it's rubbish of you to attempt to name and shame people within our community whilst choosing to remain anonymous.

Alyson - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Please, just google images of Hazel Findlay or Mina Leslie-Wujastyk for example, then do the same with Sierra Blair Coyle and Sasha Digiulian and see the difference. 

Would that be the same Sierra Blair Coyl who is based in ARI-F*CKING-ZONA? If I climbed in Arizona and posted pictures of myself climbing it would be a pretty fair bet that I'd be wearing a vest or a cropped top. Why is it ok for a man to show off his abs but if a woman does it she's 'soliciting' d*ck pics?

Post edited at 17:42
The New NickB - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Please, just google images of Hazel Findlay or Mina Leslie-Wujastyk for example, then do the same with Sierra Blair Coyle and Sasha Digiulian and see the difference. once you see the difference in photos posted by said female climbers you may understand the difference between the responses they get.

I can’t be bothered googling, just tell us which one you sent a picture of Little Dan to!

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Alyson:

Men shouldn't be allowed to either in these modern times of political correctness fairness and gender equality. Besides, it's not just climbing photos, every photo shows her wearing next to nothing. The country she is in at the time matters not.

Post edited at 17:56
10
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to joeldering:

You have a go at me for supposedly hiding behind anonymity and you have a go at me for offering to stand face to face and talk to you? WTF is wrong with you idiots? You are so scared to lose anything in an argument that you back people in to a corner and chuck shit at them regardless of what they say or do. I get grief for disagreeing with people and I get even more for agreeing with them. Seriously WTF do I have to do?

6
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to The New NickB:

> I can’t be bothered googling, just tell us which one you sent a picture of Little Dan to!


I haven't sent such photos to anyone. Maybe you have though as you were the first to suggest it.

deepsoup - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Hint: Only one of them is true.

Do you have some research to back that up?  I haven't taken the time to look into it (either), but my gut feeling would be that neither is true.

Stuart (aka brt) - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> You have a go at me for supposedly hiding behind anonymity and you have a go at me for offering to stand face to face and talk to you? WTF is wrong with you idiots? You are so scared to lose anything in an argument that you back people in to a corner and chuck shit at them regardless of what they say or do. I get grief for disagreeing with people and I get even more for agreeing with them.

> Seriously WTF do I have to do?

Let it go. Seriously, you're getting a kicking and it's not a nice spectacle. You keep coming back. Don't. Take a couple of hours off the forum and promise yourself not to peep back on this thread. 

Robert Durran - on 08 May 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

> Do you have some research to back that up?  I haven't taken the time to look into it (either), but my gut feeling would be that neither is true.

A assumed we were working on the assumption that the first one is true.

deepsoup - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Seriously WTF do I have to do?

If, just for comic effect, I take this as a genuine request for advice here is my advice:

Stop posting.  Don't even reply to this, just stop.

Take a break.  Don't even look at the forum at all for at least a couple of days.  Then read back through your posts with fresh eyes and at least try to see why a whole bunch of people who never agree with each other about anything unanimously think you're being a complete bellend.

Ditch "88Dan", maybe drop the mods a message asking them to delete the profile.

Re-register with a new name.

Start again.  Try not to be a bellend.

You're welcome.

marsbar - on 08 May 2019
In reply to fotoVUE:

If I was Susan's parent I think I'd be in control of her climbing social media and then it would be me dealing with the perverts not her.    

The advice above about locking down her personal social media is good.  Maybe even use a fake name for her personal stuff.  

deepsoup - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

> A assumed we were working on the assumption that the first one is true.

Ah.  Well, 88Dan is. 

Can't speak for anyone else but I'm inclined to think his assumptions may be somewhat flawed. (To say the f*cking least!)

1
marsbar - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

It gets to 40 degrees C in Arizona in the summer.  So the country is relevant.  

Equally in Saudi Arabia and a few other countries where people believe the sky fairies told them to cover up it isn't possible for men or women to wear shorts and tshirts.  It's probably worth being aware of these things.  Religious police are tiresome. 

> The country she is in at the time matters not.

DaveHK - on 08 May 2019

In reply to 88Dan:

> I get nothing but shit regardless of what I say 

I've scanned this thread and it seems clear that you're getting shit for some pretty specific objectionable comments. I'm sure that if you were to retract them you'd not get shit for that.

Post edited at 18:50
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

Whatever I don't care any more. Female athletes and climbers will continue to post photos of them participating in their sport wearing next to nothing and men who happen to find them on social media will continue to enquire about their relationship status, tell them all the naughty things they would do to them if they met them, and if all else fails send them a dick pic. People who want to do that will always find a way and no amount of complaining on forums and social media will stop it.

21
john arran - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> men who happen to find them on social media will ... send them a dick pic. People who want to do that will always find a way and no amount of complaining on forums and social media will stop it.

Except if such behaviour is castigated so strongly and so widely that these losers don't feel emboldened by thinking that such behaviour is somehow accepted as inevitable and therefore not really a big deal.

Your acceptance, verging on defence, of it is the kind of thing that allows it to be perpetuated. You are indeed part of the problem Please don't be.

captain paranoia - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> People who want to do that will always find a way and no amount of complaining on forums and social media will stop it.

Pointing out to people that it is an odious, socially unacceptable thing to do can go a long way towards stopping it. Treating people who do it, or who make excuses for people who do it, as social pariahs may go a long way towards stopping it.

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to john arran:

I am not defending anyone apart from myself. People will do what they want regardless of how many people try and stop them, having a go at me isn't going to stop every social media weirdo who wants to send photos of his bits to unsuspecting females is it? Unless you really think having a go at me is going to solve anything, in which case feel free to fire away. Crap like this doesn't bother me. But make sure you have a go at everyone else too or that is just being unfair, and we can't have that now can we.

5
DaveHK - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Whatever I don't care any more. Female athletes and climbers will continue to post photos of them participating in their sport wearing next to nothing and men who happen to find them on social media will continue to enquire about their relationship status, tell them all the naughty things they would do to them if they met them, and if all else fails send them a dick pic. People who want to do that will always find a way and no amount of complaining on forums and social media will stop it.

Who do you think is at fault or to blame in that situation?

Post edited at 19:28
MonkeyPuzzle - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Whatever I don't care any more. Female athletes and climbers will continue to post photos of them participating in their sport wearing next to nothing and men who happen to find them on social media will continue to enquire about their relationship status, tell them all the naughty things they would do to them if they met them, and if all else fails send them a dick pic. People who want to do that will always find a way and no amount of complaining on forums and social media will stop it.

Wow, that's inspiring stuff. When we set that speech to music when do you want the trumpets to come in?

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

Everyone and no one is to blame.

5
webbo - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Everyone and no one is to blame.

what do you do for a job.

Mediation?

DaveHK - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Everyone and no one is to blame.

That's a little unclear, are you suggesting that the blame is shared between the woman who received the dick pic and the man who sent it?

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Read the article and have a look at the instagram account. That is exactly the behaviour you can expect. I haven't done anything wrong so don't have a go at me.

3
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

I am suggesting that everyone and no one is to blame.

5
DaveHK - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> I am suggesting that everyone and no one is to blame.

You're going to have to explain that because I don't understand what you mean.

You could start with the first bit, how is everyone in that scenario to blame?

Post edited at 19:54
john arran - on 08 May 2019
In reply to webbo:

> what do you do for a job.

> Mediation?

Let him finish his GCSEs first!

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

> You're going to have to explain that because I don't understand what you mean.

> You could start with the first bit, how is everyone in that scenario to blame?


No one is to blame.

7
Sir Chasm - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> I am suggesting that everyone and no one is to blame.

So if you send an unsolicited dick pic to a woman it isn't your fault?

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to john arran:

Are you always this funny? This is once again proving my point with this forum. No matter what you say or do people will always want to have a go.

7
DaveHK - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> No one is to blame.

Ok, start with explaining that bit then. Why is no one to blame?

fotoVUE - on 08 May 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> Disable DMs. Be polite and friendly, but maintain a professional distance - some men's abililty to delude themselves into thinking they have a chance defies all logic. More importantly, ask Hazel Findlay, Sasha DiGulian, Natalie Berry, Shawna Coxey, and whoever else she can get in touch with who has first hand experience.

Thanks Monkey Puzzle. That was a pretty comprehensive well-thought out list.

It also echoed Hazel Findlay’s about switching off direct messaging, blocking people and not interacting. Whilst no-one likes having their freedom to do what they want restrained, I think it is important for all online to protect themselves. 

Also, I think Susan, or any young climber (unless they are in what Andrew Bisharat calls the 'athlete/model' conundrum) would do well to follow Emma Twyford's and Hazel's advice, they know, that despite Natalie's article and Instagram account Climbers Against Dick Pics making people more aware of this problem, it is doubtful that it will go away.

Emma Twyford: 'I'm fairly careful about what I post. Once in a blue moon I might post a skimpy shot or a bikini shot but I don't want people following me for sex appeal, because it does open you up to all sorts of weirdos - not to knock anyone who does this as it's no excuse for inappropriate messages,' she explains. 

Hazel Findlay responds. 'I wouldn't want to post photos of myself in skimpy clothes in order to get more likes because I don't want that kind of following. I do find it sad that some of my better-received Instagram posts are ones that show more flesh or where I look nice,' she adds.

Having an understanding of human nature and psychology, and of this facility where we can all broadcast what we want, Emma's and Hazel's is sage advice.

All the best,

Mick 

Post edited at 20:04
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

Because someone is to blame. That someone could be anyone, or no one. FYI I am taking the piss and rather proving my earlier points that people on this forum want to have a go even when you agree with them. Or even if you don't.

4
DaveHK - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

I'm not having a go, I'm politely asking relevant questions. Why don't you answer them?

La benya - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

You’re not proving anything other than you’re an idiot

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to La benya:

I am proving that everyone else is the idiot because people keep arguing with me just for the sake of it even when I agree with them.

7
webbo - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

When having a live debate do you often find yourself putting your fingers in your ears and going “ La,la,la,la,la” as loud as you can.

fotoVUE - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I think you may be struggling to understand the difference between these two statements:

> (1)  A woman is more likely to be sent d*ck pics if she posts scantily clad photos.

> (2)  A woman is partially to blame for being sent d*ck pics if she posts scantily clad photos.

> Hint: Only one of them is true.

I think any woman is likely to be sent obscene images and propositions in gross language if they are online (let's not go off line, abuse against women there is at another level of seriousness).

As regards more likely to re: your first (1) statement. You would have thought so, if only you go by the gross and suggestive unmoderated comments on the Instagram profiles of some women athletes.

However, as 88Dan has found out, if you are not perfectly clear that women who post 'scantily clad photos' are not 'asking for it', or 'inviting it' you may get another type of (relatively harmless) abuse.

They aren't 'asking for it', or 'inviting it' but they will still get abuse, and those reasons are sadly still used in the defence of rapists.

All the best,

Mick

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

If I say men are to blame people will have a go, if I say women are to blame people will have a go, if I say no one is to blame people will have a go, if I say everyone is to blame people will have a go. People will have a go no matter what I say, so I'm just going to ride it out and have a laugh.

4
marsbar - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

Does it make any difference if the bikini is from decathlon? 

1
La benya - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

Ok. Sure. 😂

La benya - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

Nope. The one thing you haven’t done is say “men who send doc pics are wrong, there is no blame attributed to the woman receiving them”. I guarantee (test it) that you will get a positive reaction. But you know that. 

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to La benya:

I've just said men are to blame and you are still having a go, which is proving my point rather nicely.

3
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to marsbar:

Where the bikini is from makes no difference, it all depends on the person wearing it.

1
DaveHK - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> If I say men are to blame people will have a go, if I say women are to blame people will have a go, if I say no one is to blame people will have a go, if I say everyone is to blame people will have a go.

As la benya says this is not true. 

Is your refusal to answer my direct questions because you know your answers will meet with disapproval?

webbo - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> If I say men are to blame people will have a go, if I say women are to blame people will have a go, if I say no one is to blame people will have a go, if I say everyone is to blame people will have a go. People will have a go no matter what I say, so I'm just going to ride it out and have a laugh.

This not saying men are to blame.

Its a cop out.

La benya - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

And you’re proving my point quite nicely too. You’re an idiot

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

My original comment that sparked all this crap should show I don't care about disapproval. Someone had to say it and I decided to bite the bullet.

10
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to La benya:

Nice to talk to you too mate.

DaveHK - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> My original comment that sparked all this crap should show I don't care about disapproval. Someone had to say it and I decided to bite the bullet.

So why don't you answer my question? Who do you think is at fault or to blame in the scenario you outlined above?

Off the top of my head I'd say there are 3 options, the man, the woman and shared blame.

Which do you think it is?

Post edited at 20:49
webbo - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> My original comment that sparked all this crap should show I don't care about disapproval. Someone had to say it and I decided to bite the bullet.

Clearly you do care or why else do you keep trying to justify your comments.

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

Someone is to blame and I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.

2
DaveHK - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Someone is to blame and I wouldn't want to be in their shoes.

Is it :

A. The man?

B. The woman?

C. Shared between the two?

I'm just trying to help you clarify your position because it doesn't sound like it's very clear in your own head.

Post edited at 20:57
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

Give it a rest now. I've had enough.

2
DaveHK - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Give it a rest now. I've had enough.

Good choice. I don't think your doing yourself any favours continuing.

Post edited at 21:11
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

But I have a strange urge to see how long I can keep this going. I don't give a toss who is a member on this forum, we all think and feel differently about things and it's high time people realized that. There is a world outside the nice safe protected sanctuary of this forum where people don't always like the same things and they don't always agree on things. Get used to it or die trying.

13
Some time some place - on 08 May 2019
In reply to marsbar:

> Make your mind up.  Either you are the kind of man who condemns the perverts or you are the kind of man who says someone in a short skirt is asking for it.  

Can you condemn bike thieves but still think that someone not locking up their bike shouldn't be surprised if it gets nicked?

I think this is 88Dan's basic premise and I don't think he deserves all the vitriol he's getting.

Most men are decent and either aren't that bothered or can control their impulses. However there are a small number who are sexual deviants (for whatever reason) and potentially dangerous. I have a daughter who likes dressing up sexy and while I know she's not 'asking for it', I also know she's leaving herself more vulnerable to these men. I advise her to tone it down a bit. Does that make me a terrible dad?
 

Post edited at 21:27
8
tjdodd - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

So why are you spending so much time giving completely the opposite impression, i.e. that you do not respect different viewpoints?

This forum is full of people with different viewpoints who often have very robust discussions about a variety of issues.  However, by and large everyone appears to respect and learn from each other.  I think everyone is richer for the experience and understands their own and others views more deeply as a result.  I have certainly learnt a lot from this forum and it has helped me question my own thoughts on a number of topics.

On occasion someone comes on the forum who appears to want to argue or be controversial for the sake of it.  On other occasions someone expresses views that are outside the civilised normality.  In these cases the rest of the forum will spend their precious time giving well reasoned arguments against the views expressed in order to help the person become a better person.

In your case you are not only expressing views that are outside the civilised normality but are mysogynistic at best and more likely, in my view, defending the vile and illegal.  Social media can be great but is unfortunately also home to some really vile people who hide behind the anonymity to be abusive in a number of ways.  You are consistently defending these people which is why people are taking exception.

As a rather extreme example I am interested in your views on the following.  A woman has decided to make a living as a porn star.  This is their own decision, is legal and they make a good living from it.  As part of promoting themselves they are also active on social media where they post "sexy" images of themselves.  As a result they receive abusive comments, threats of rape and murder, and the odd d*ck pic.  Who is to blame for this?

Michael Gordon - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

Some welcome nuance in an argument, unusual for this thread! 

I don't think talking about 'blame' is particularly helpful. Stalking, threatening or vile messages are clearly unacceptable. Though it seems rather pointless, asking if someone has a boyfriend doesn't really seem harmful. Walking down a dark alley without many clothes on is not sensible. Doing 'the equivalent' online is far less risky, and I can't see much wrong with it, though put yourself in the public sphere and you've got to expect some silly comments. 

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

> Can you condemn bike thieves but still think that someone not locking up their bike shouldn't be surprised if it gets nicked?

> I think this is 88Dan's basic premise and I don't think he deserves all the vitriol he's getting.

> Most men are decent and either aren't that bothered or can control their impulses. However there are a small number who are sexual deviants (for whatever reason) and potentially dangerous. I have a daughter who likes dressing up sexy and while I know she's not 'asking for it', I also know she's leaving herself more vulnerable to these men. I advise her to tone it down a bit. Does that make me a terrible dad?


A thief is very much opportunistic and will only steal what they can. If you left your car or your front door open and things were nicked, would you blame the thief instead of your own stupidity for failing to secure the two most expensive things you will ever buy?

As for your daughter, looking out for her well being does not make you a terrible dad. She likes dressing sexy and you both know full well she isn't asking for it. But the fact that you have asked her to tone things down a bit goes some way to suggest that even though you both know she isn't asking for anything, her sexy way of dressing may suggest to some that she is asking for it. Which was exactly my point before with the unwanted attention received by certain female climbers which I was once again slated for.

10
Sir Chasm - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

When your daughter gets unsolicited dick pics do you tell her it's her fault?

8
Michael Gordon - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> A thief is very much opportunistic and will only steal what they can. If you left your car or your front door open and things were nicked, would you blame the thief instead of your own stupidity for failing to secure the two most expensive things you will ever buy?> 

I would feel sad and annoyed (and yes, would likely learn from the experience). The question of who was to blame would seem a rather pointless one. 

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to tjdodd:

The best thing to do would be to avoid social media. We all know what weirdos lurk there and we all know what to expect from these people. So steer clear or best case don't even register and the nasty people won't be able to send you horrible messages. I say people because women can be just as vile and nasty as men.

9
TobyA on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> we all think and feel differently about things and it's high time people realized that.

Yes some people think the world is flat whilst others know its round. Some people are wrong about things and others are right...

...d'ya see where this is going?

BTW, I read your comments earlier about how Americans wear next to nothing in their instagram pictures and Brits don't. I've followed Shauna Coxsey on instagram for a few years and she posts plenty of pictures of her bouldering in what I presume is often her chosen clothing for bouldering in well heated walls - shorts or leggings and a sports-bra-top-thingy (my wife reckons a sports bra you wear under another layer, but wasn't helpful on what you call a sports bra that you wear as your outer layer!). She was on holiday recently and posted some pictures of herself in a bikini. Is it your position that she should now expect unsolicited pictures or messages that are, or at least verge on, sexual harassment as a result of her choices? You seem to be saying that some men are going to do that whatever so the only people who can do anything to stop or lessen it, is the women athletes - by changing how they present themselves. Is that a fair summary of what you mean?

1
Some time some place - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> When your daughter gets unsolicited dick pics do you tell her it's her fault?

Congratulations, you've taken this argument so far that you've actually become the online abuser. 

12
TobyA on 08 May 2019
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Walking down a dark alley without many clothes on is not sensible.

I don't want to get too sociological here and I know this is only part of a wider point you are trying to make, but sexual assault by a stranger - the dark alley scenario - is really rather rare, we know this from both recorded crime surveys and victim surveys. Women and girls are most at risk from men they know: intimate partners, family members, friends, colleagues - roughly in that order.

What someone wears on the street or walking down an alley has such a vanishingly small impact on the likelihood of them becoming a victim of sexual assault it makes little sense to say whether its sensible or not to wear or not wear certain things.

Sir Chasm - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

> Congratulations, you've taken this argument so far that you've actually become the online abuser. 

Go on, admit that the person sending the pics is to blame (and stop being silly).

3
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to TobyA:

No that is not a summary of what I mean. Why would your wife be responsible for unwanted social media attention and possible sexual harassment when that is all the fault of man? What I ment was that if they really want to, men will continue to send salacious messages and possibly personal pics to women regardless of the consequences. It's like telling a drug addict to stop taking drugs, or telling them what will happen to them if they keep taking drugs. If they want to take drugs badly enough they will continue to do it no matter what anyone says. Women taking more care with who they share their photos with and the content of those photos might go a long way to put off would be weirdos sending explicit messages and or dick pics. It might not stop said weirdos completely but every little helps.

9
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

I never said the person sending the pics wasn't to blame. but the profiles full of photos of a scantily clad female certainly do nothing to help the situation. which has been my point all along. Now, which of you spineless cowards is using anonymity to hide behind that dislike button on every one of my comments no matter what I say? That really is childish beyond belief.

16
The New NickB - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> I haven't sent such photos to anyone. Maybe you have though as you were the first to suggest it.

Why on earth would I do that?

1
Luke90 on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> Now, which of you spineless cowards is using anonymity to hide behind that dislike button on every one of my comments no matter what I say? That really is childish beyond belief.

This is an argument on the internet with an anonymous troll. What's bravery got to do with it?! People, including me, are disliking your posts because your opinions are unpleasant and regressive and you show no sign of listening to any of the many well-reasoned, thoughtful counterarguments that have already been written.

1
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to The New NickB:

I don't know, why were you so quick to suggest that I would do that? Oh because everyone saw my comments the way they wanted to, thinking I was defending men who send dick pics so I must be a man that sends dick pics too right? If that is what you and everyone else who has given me shit thinks then you can all think again.

3
Michael Gordon - on 08 May 2019
In reply to TobyA:

You are correct of course. Could be wrong, but would hypothesise that this is due to more frequent contact with partners, family members etc than with 'dodgy strangers'.

I would be wary of living according to general statistics. An individual without a violent partner or family member and who doesn't have friends or colleagues like that is going to be most at risk from a stranger. Just because men are (as far as I understand) more often victims of assault on the street, this could be because they get into fights more often. It doesn't mean that a woman shouldn't take reasonable precautions to avoid potentially risky situations. However, it is of course personal choice.

L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Luke90:

There have only been one or two well reasoned thoughtful counter arguments. Even when that does happen the person making those well reasoned arguments seems to get slated as much as I do. And I am not a troll.

Post edited at 23:06
2
The New NickB - on 08 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

It was more victim blaming than directly defending perpetrators, but hey ho! I'm sure you have got a much more balanced and nuanced argument, but you are just really misunderstood.

1
L 88Dan - on 08 May 2019
In reply to The New NickB:

Whatever the reason, I would advise against throwing accusations around for no reason other than trying to illicit a prescribed response.

8
tjdodd - on 08 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

> Most men are decent and either aren't that bothered or can control their impulses. However there are a small number who are sexual deviants (for whatever reason) and potentially dangerous. I have a daughter who likes dressing up sexy and while I know she's not 'asking for it', I also know she's leaving herself more vulnerable to these men. I advise her to tone it down a bit. Does that make me a terrible dad?

Whilst I can understand why you are advising your daughter this way, I think it is wrong.  Your daughter should be able to wear what she wants.  If she wants to dress up sexy as it makes her feel good, or because her friends are dressed like this, or because she is looking for a boyfriend, or for whatever reason, then that is her decision.  She should not feel like she needs to dress differently or feel uncomfortable dressing how she wants.  She should be who she wants to be and not feel guilty about it.

Dressing sexy (whatever that means) does not make women more vulnerable to sexual assault.  By perpetuating this myth you are (subconsciously) victim blaming.  The vast majority of sexual assaults are by people known to the victim and the nature of the clothing is rarely a factor.  Provocative clothing does not invite predatory behaviour.  Sexual assault is all about power play by violent criminals.

Post edited at 23:27
1
DaveHK - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

> Can you condemn bike thieves but still think that someone not locking up their bike shouldn't be surprised if it gets nicked?

On the surface this looks like a good analogy to support your point but actually it isn't. What an unlocked bike presents is an opportunity to a thief. It's social media that presents the opportunity to the kind of man discussed in the article, not a woman's mode of dress. So if you're worried about your daughter's safety, don't advise her on her dress, advise her on social media.

MonkeyPuzzle - on 09 May 2019
In reply to The Thread:

Lots of people arguing about what you should or shouldn't tell your daughters - the point being missed is that you should be discussing about what you teach your sons, i.e. empathy for women, respect and consent.

marsbar - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

Terrible no.  But you are setting her up to question her clothing and blame herself if something ever happens to her. 

Despite what people assume, sexual assaults happen no matter what women wear.  

2
DaveHK - on 09 May 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> Lots of people arguing about what you should or shouldn't tell your daughters - the point being missed is that you should be discussing about what you teach your sons, i.e. empathy for women, respect and consent.

Very true. I think everyone recognises the importance of that, it's just that the discussion hasn't taken that direction.

Post edited at 07:22
DaveHK - on 09 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

You're clearly very angry at having your views challenged and because I know that there's nothing people like more than being psychoanalysed by a random, amateur stranger on the internet I'm going to try to explain your anger.

You are angry at being challenged not because your beliefs are deeply held and correct but because they are deeply held and wrong. This is perfectly natural and we all do it to some degree or another. I think the trick is to take that anger as a cue to re-examine ones beliefs.

The Oatmeal says it rather well: https://theoatmeal.com/comics/believe

1
JoshOvki on 09 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

> No that is not a summary of what I mean. Why would your wife be responsible for unwanted social media attention and possible sexual harassment when that is all the fault of man? What I ment was that if they really want to, men will continue to send salacious messages and possibly personal pics to women regardless of the consequences. It's like telling a drug addict to stop taking drugs, or telling them what will happen to them if they keep taking drugs. If they want to take drugs badly enough they will continue to do it no matter what anyone says.

I thought you where making a reasonable point for a moment. Then you had to go and ruin it by pushing the responsibility back on the victim.

> Women taking more care with who they share their photos with and the content of those photos might go a long way to put off would be weirdos sending explicit messages and or dick pics. It might not stop said weirdos completely but every little helps.

marsbar - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Michael Gordon:

I was wearing a non revealing t shirt and  jeans and travelling on the tube during the day when I was sexually assaulted. 

I suppose I could go for the burka.  That's the reason women wear them.  

Or we could put the myths and victim blaming to one side and look at the facts.  

https://www.indiatoday.in/lifestyle/what-s-hot/story/this-exhibition-has-put-up-clothes-worn-by-rape-victims-to-prove-it-wasn-t-their-fault-1132679-2018-01-11?fbclid=IwAR3j_RhuOt8zmyD2SGMWMvHWSgL4nYvH9oiI0c3fj0FbmPPOdNA4NW6w5Rk#close-overlay

Post edited at 07:39
Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to tjdodd:

> Your daughter should be able to wear what she wants.  If she wants to dress up sexy as it makes her feel good, or because her friends are dressed like this, or because she is looking for a boyfriend, or for whatever reason, then that is her decision.  She should not feel like she needs to dress differently or feel uncomfortable dressing how she wants.  She should be who she wants to be and not feel guilty about it.

I agree with all this (though am sceptical about the quality of boyfriend she'd get by doing this). 

> Dressing sexy (whatever that means) does not make women more vulnerable to sexual assault. 

Do people really believe this? In an alcohol fuelled party too?

> By perpetuating this myth you are (subconsciously) victim blaming. 

I really don't appreciate strangers on an internet forum telling me what I'm thinking with such conviction.

> The vast majority of sexual assaults are by people known to the victim and the nature of the clothing is rarely a factor. 

It's the 'rarely' bit that makes me advise my daughter to tone it down a bit. I'm concerned about the minority cases. Small probabilities multiplied by multiple events = significant overall probability. I also try to spend as little time as possible under seracs.

> Sexual assault is all about power play by violent criminals.

Which is why I'll continue to advise my daughter to tone it down a bit when I think it's necessary. 

Post edited at 07:36
3
Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> Lots of people arguing about what you should or shouldn't tell your daughters - the point being missed is that you should be discussing about what you teach your sons, i.e. empathy for women, respect and consent.

100% agree. Fortunately talking to daughters and sons about sex and consent is not mutually exclusive! However, the fact that this stuff has to be taught to boys, reinforces my ideas about how I should advise my daughter.

marsbar - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

If you want to look a sensible risk assessment the phrase that jumps out at me as a woman and as someone with a teenage girl at home is alcohol fuelled.

What she wears is irrelevant.  

Talk to her and her friends about sensible drinking.  Teach them that if any of them are daft enough to get very drunk they should never leave them alone and they should put them the recovery position. 

Explain to her that a few drinks is fun but a lot of drink makes you unable to look after yourself.  This makes you vulnerable. 

Tell them that if ever things get out of hand at a party that they can call you and you will come and get them without shouting or blaming.  Be the Dad they can call on to help.  Too many dad's end up with their daughters hiding stuff from them.  That is risky.  

tjdodd - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

Even a little bit of reading will show you that what women wear has nothing to do with sexual assault.

It is also widely stated that by perpetuating this myth you are victim blaming.  I am not a stranger telling you what you think.  I am a stranger telling you you are victim blaming because you clearly believe that what women wear affects their chances of sexual assault and therefore that they are partially to blame by what they wear.  Whilst such beliefs are held you are providing people who carry out sexual assault a defence for their actions.

Please look at the link above in marsbar's post.  There are also plenty of other very enlightening information about victim blaming and what you wear.

1
MonkeyPuzzle - on 09 May 2019
In reply to DaveHK:

> Very true. I think everyone recognises the importance of that, it's just that the discussion hasn't taken that direction.

More in reference of 88Dan's throwing up of arms and saying "Well there's no point in talking about it because it won't change" - that's not true. We can change it by making sure as few 88Dans get brought up as possible by explaining to all young boys (and girls of course) that a flash of skin is not a personal invitation.

2
Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to marsbar:

Couldn't agree more. Once I had arranged to pick my daughter up from a New Year party in the early hours of the morning. Just after midnight I got a phone call from a guy telling me I should come the following day instead as my daughter was "sleeping". I asked to speak to her but was refused and the call terminated. Obviously I went round anyway. I walked into the house expecting it to be messy but found everyone sitting around quietly smoking, drinking and chatting. My daughter had drunk herself sick/unconscious (apparently strongly-dosed punch) and been put in a bed in the recovery position with a quilt over her and a bucket nearby. The people at the party were keeping a close eye on her. This experience gave me a lot of respect for the youth involved, but also made me realise how vulnerable a young woman could be in different circumstances.

Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to tjdodd:

> Even a little bit of reading will show you that what women wear has nothing to do with sexual assault.

Can you direct me to some sources.

> I am a stranger telling you you are victim blaming because you clearly believe that what women wear affects their chances of sexual assault and therefore that they are partially to blame by what they wear.  

And I am telling you that I put the blame entirely on predatory men taking advantage of a person's vulnerability. You are making a connection between clothes and blame, not me.

MonkeyPuzzle - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

> Just after midnight I got a phone call from a guy telling me I should come the following day instead as my daughter was "sleeping".

It's almost sweetly naive that they thought a lad calling a girl's parent to say that would put their mind at rest.

DaveHK - on 09 May 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> More in reference of 88Dan's throwing up of arms and saying "Well there's no point in talking about it because it won't change" - that's not true. 

I teach a course to 13 year olds in which we look at the role of women in the developed and developing worlds.  I've seen some really really encouraging things from the boys in the class in terms of how they respond to sexist/negative/outdated behaviour towards women. And then I watched the documentary below and got thoroughly depressed by just how much work we still need to do in this country.  The worrying bit is the couple of minutes from 29.15. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayj9EVc2ZLI

Post edited at 08:36
john arran - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

Your reasonable-sounding line of 'I can reduce risk therefore I should' very quickly becomes 'they could have reduced the risk so it's partly their fault for not having done so'. When applied to locking your house or car it makes some sense as it's no skin off your nose to do so; when applied to social media activity it's a lot less clearcut and can easily significantly reduce a person's freedom to portray themselves online acting normally, legally and responsibly.

I think what's getting lost here is the nature and substantiveness of the perceived provocation. While many behaviours might rightly be seen as in some way asking for trouble, I'm certain that posting social media photos of yourself dressed and behaving as you would in public at the climbing wall or crag isn't one of them.

marsbar - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

That's the biggest protective factor, sensible friends.  

I can see why they tried to stop you coming, having met some dad's who would have lost it with the people who were actually doing the right thing.  

Teenagers don't always trust the adults to do the right thing which is sad.  Most young people are actually capable and sensible.  Most young men would do the right thing.  This is why I get annoyed at the messages that suggest all men are dangerous.  It's only a few and they need to be condemned totally by everyone.  

Bjartur i Sumarhus on 09 May 2019
In reply to thread:

Turning the tables slightly and flipping the gender coin, my cousins son is a very promising footballer, he is 15 years old and signed a scholarship with a decent football team. I was pretty shocked when I saw him on instagram with over 4000 followers. He posts pictures of himself playing football, or (ridiculously IMO) posing in driving seats of flash cars he cannot drive (presumably in the car park of said football team).

All his pictures attract hundreds of comments, mainly from girls posting emojis of yellow faces with heart eyes, blowing kisses etc and saying how hot he is.He responds to most of them with inane nonsense like "my girl" or "my g"

I have no idea if he receives any pictures at all. But reading this very interesting article it wouldn't surprise me at all.

He is 15 and nearly all his interaction with SM has a sexual element to it. It seems ubiquitous across the board and fully agree attitudes need to change

Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to marsbar:

> I get annoyed at the messages that suggest all men are dangerous.  It's only a few and they need to be condemned totally by everyone.  

And they ruin it for everyone, meaning everyone has to take avoidance measures. A small minority of thieves means we have to lock our stuff up, a small minority of violent psychopaths means we need gun control laws and a small number of predatory men mean I feel obliged to advise my daughter about mitigating risk.

However, I also feel I must explain to my son about sexual consent, which suggests there is an issue with men as a whole. 

2
tjdodd - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

If you google something like "wearing sexy clothes and blame" you will find lots of articles.

Re blame, you are the one who raised the connection between clothes and blame.  In your original post with respect to your daughter wearing sexy clothes you stated "I advise her to tone it down a bit.".  This is the problem.  If she were to get sexually assaulted you have already assigned blame to her by making her think that how she dresses will affect her chances of sexual assault.  How much should she tone it down?  At what point does how you dress mean you are no longer at risk of sexual assault?  Is a tight pair of jeans or leggings more suitable than a mini skirt or tight shorts?  Should she dress in a niqab?  Should she not go out at all?

Women should be allowed to go out wearing what they want without the fear that if they are sexually assaulted they will be partially blamed due to what they are wearing.  The blame is wholly with the assaulter but by questioning what women wear assigns partial blame to them.  We (meaning society) need to get out of this cycle of questioning what women wear.  Then we can focus on dealing with the real issue, which is not what women wear, but violent predatory men. 

Going back to the original thread re d%ck pics it is the same argument.  I think we all agree that women should feel free to post what they want on social media without fear that they will receive d%ck pics or sexually suggestive/aggressive messages.  I think more importantly in the context of how this thread has gone, if they do receive d%ck pics or sexually suggestive/aggressive messages they should not feel in any way responsible or to blame due to what they we wearing in the pictures.  This is why 88Dan is wrong as he continually argues the women are partially to blame.  They are not.

Post edited at 09:12
3
Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to john arran:

>  I'm certain that posting social media photos of yourself dressed and behaving as you would in public at the climbing wall or crag isn't one of them.

Do you accept that some people change the way they look and behave on social media so as to enhance their public profile?

1
Michael Gordon - on 09 May 2019
In reply to marsbar:

> I was wearing a non revealing t shirt and  jeans and travelling on the tube during the day when I was sexually assaulted. 

> I suppose I could go for the burka.  That's the reason women wear them.  

> Or we could put the myths and victim blaming to one side and look at the facts.  

I don't know why people keep bringing up the idea of 'blame'. There are plenty of nasty people in the world, and there will, unfortunately, always be victims. Giving well intended advice is not the same as blaming.

Obviously assaults happen regardless of the clothing worn, but it would seem very naive to suggest that choice of clothing wasn't a factor in a few cases. 

2
fotoVUE - on 09 May 2019
In reply to tjdodd:

> Even a little bit of reading will show you that what women wear has nothing to do with sexual assault.

That is fairly well-established, it doesn't matter how you dress or how you look.

However, the main topic here is posting images online on social media and the online abuse, comments, messages and 'dick picks' that some experience. It's important to make the distinction between online and off-line.

If you have an climbing athlete profile people like Emma Twyford and Hazel Findlay, they post images of themselves climbing and training, with the some lifestyle images, both said they avoid, or infrequently post images of themselves scantily clad, because, " I don't want people following me for sex appeal, because it does open you up to all sorts of weirdos" (Emma) "I wouldn't want to post photos of myself in skimpy clothes in order to get more likes because I don't want that kind of following." (Hazel).

Both Hazel and Emma aren't going down the athlete-model route and seem to be aware of possible difficulties if they do. Andrew Bisharat describes this category, athlete-model, where an athlete is not only promoting their athleticism, but also their beauty and sex appeal. It's not a new category by any means.

(Andrew's article is here, and the comments are worth a read - http://eveningsends.com/athlete-models-sierra-blair-coyle/ )

In the athlete-model profile, there is a high frequency of images that show the persons beauty and sex appeal, and consequently their audience is far higher than 'most' athlete social media feeds, especially in the world of climbing.

This will attract more inappropriate comments in public comments when images are posted, including fan adoration, especially so if you are a woman. It would be no surprise if the athlete-model, if they have direct messaging switched on, that they would receive inappropriate private messages and images.

M

1
Michael Gordon - on 09 May 2019
In reply to tjdodd:

> If she were to get sexually assaulted you have already assigned blame to her by making her think that how she dresses will affect her chances of sexual assault.  > 

You've put two and two together and made five. The second part of your sentence relates to a consideration of probability, not blame. For a climbing comparison, mountain rescue teams will release statements to the press detailing specific incidents and advising on good practice for others to hopefully learn from. They aren't blaming the individuals concerned. Indeed the consideration of blame is a completely pointless one. You make decisions, things happen, you are unlucky etc. What counts is what measures can be taken to avoid future incidents.  

2
Sir Chasm - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Michael Gordon:

And you've taken that 5, added 3 and arrived at 9. Your climbing comparison is rubbish because there is no other party involved. Whereas if you were at the bottom of the crag and local neds dropped rocks on your head it would clearly be your fault for being in the wrong place.

Michael Gordon - on 09 May 2019
In reply to fotoVUE:

It seems strange that what women wear has an effect on messages received online, the number of inappropriate comments received in pubs etc, but not in cases of serious assault. Something doesn't compute. No-one is saying it has a great effect, but a very small effect seems likely, much more so than "absolutely no effect at all, ever". 

1
Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to tjdodd:

> We (meaning society) need to get out of this cycle of questioning what women wear.

I personally haven't been speaking for society but only for myself when I've said all the blame should go on the assaulter. I don't always lock my house and have had things stolen from it but I 100% blame the thieves and not myself (even though I tell myself I shouldn't be surprised). I have also had locked and unlocked bikes stolen, and I put equal blame on both types of thief. Anyone who thinks stealing an unlocked bike makes you less guilty than stealing a locked bike has serious morality issues.  

> Then we can focus on dealing with the real issue, which is not what women wear, but violent predatory men. 

I agree that it would be easier to deal with the assault issue if society as a whole can resolve the blame issue. Unfortunately I'm a father and can't wait. Problem is that some predatory men are not ready to accept our apportioning of blame, while others will never care what society thinks. So unless something about society fundamentally changes tomorrow, I'll keep advising my daughter the way I do. You have implied yourself that in rare cases the way a woman dresses can affect a man's behaviour.

1
Michael Gordon - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

Another party vs a serac is irrelevant in considering probability and giving advice regarding any one situation. Again I don't know why you keep going on about blame. 

john arran - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

> Do you accept that some people change the way they look and behave on social media so as to enhance their public profile?

At the risk of rising to whataboutery, people change the way they look to suit an intended audience, regardless of whether they are in the street at the wall or crag, or out clubbing. Online is little different.

Sir Chasm - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Another party vs a serac is irrelevant in considering probability and giving advice regarding any one situation. Again I don't know why you keep going on about blame. 

Because someone dropping a rock on your head (or sending a dick pic) is an action they take that causes harm. The person taking that action is to blame, it is their behaviour that needs addressing. I don't know why you find that complicated. 

Sealwife - on 09 May 2019
In reply to marsbar:

> If you want to look a sensible risk assessment the phrase that jumps out at me as a woman and as someone with a teenage girl at home is alcohol fuelled.

> What she wears is irrelevant.  

> Talk to her and her friends about sensible drinking.  Teach them that if any of them are daft enough to get very drunk they should never leave them alone and they should put them the recovery position. 

> Explain to her that a few drinks is fun but a lot of drink makes you unable to look after yourself.  This makes you vulnerable. 

> Tell them that if ever things get out of hand at a party that they can call you and you will come and get them without shouting or blaming.  Be the Dad they can call on to help.  Too many dad's end up with their daughters hiding stuff from them.  That is risky.  

All of this.  From a viewpoint of having been a teenage girl who hid things from her parents because she would have been blamed and shouted at, who got too drunk, who got sexually assaulted.  And also from the viewpoint of an adult woman who now has teenage daughters.  

Teach your daughters how to look after themselves and their friends and that you will be available if they need help.

MGRT - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Sealwife:

Thanks. Good advice. Noted.

MonkeyPuzzle - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Another party vs a serac is irrelevant in considering probability and giving advice regarding any one situation. Again I don't know why you keep going on about blame. 

Because women are still blamed, constantly, for being attacked, abused and even raped. Being told to cover up subtly (and often not so subtly) gives girls and women the impression that they are somehow in control of being targeted. It would be great if all women and society in general were able to hear advice to cover up (whether covering up has an effect or not I'll leave to others) without a perfectly natural next step of assuming not to do so may be irresponsible.

Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

If you want to get mathematical then let's do it, I work in risk management. My daughter goes out partying at least once a week, she could keep this up for at least 10 years so let's say she'll go to 500 parties as a young woman. 

Rape is a catastrophic event which should not happen even once.

If my daughter dressing in a sexually provocative way (note: provocative for sexual predators) increases her chance of being raped at a party by even a factor of 0.002, then that risk is not worth taking. Of course the benefits of dressing in a sexually provocative way also need to be factored into the calculation, but I'm not qualified to make this judgement from anyone else's point of view. Personally I can't see any benefit, but I realise it's complicated and involves issues of self-esteem.

Mitigating risk for catastrophic events is always difficult as few situations in life carry zero risk. I would argue that calculating the risk of an assault driven by the sexual urges and violent temperament of another human being is impossible to even envisage. This is why I shall continue to advise my daughter the way I do.

ps. this isn't the way I explain it to my daughter!

4
Sir Chasm - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

But however she is dressed she'd have to actually go to the party to be raped (putting aside the fact she's more likely to be assaulted at home), so following your "logic" your advice should be that she doesn't go to the party.

DaveHK - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

> If you want to get mathematical then let's do it, I work in risk management. My daughter goes out partying at least once a week, she could keep this up for at least 10 years so let's say she'll go to 500 parties as a young woman. 

> Rape is a catastrophic event which should not happen even once.

> If my daughter dressing in a sexually provocative way (note: provocative for sexual predators) increases her chance of being raped at a party by even a factor of 0.002,

This is like the Drake Equation, you start with some relatively quantifiable parameters then drift off into unknowns, or even unknowables!

Post edited at 10:43
deepsoup - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

> ps. this isn't the way I explain it to my daughter!

Just as well.  To be honest you haven't explained anything to anyone in that post, it's a right old hotchpotch.

You started with "lets get mathematical" and estimated some numbers.  Then you admitted you're not qualified to estimate some other numbers you would need for even the sketchiest mathematical analysis.  Then you said some other factors are "impossible to envisage".  And then you concluded that the maths proves you're right.

fotoVUE - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> It seems strange that what women wear has an effect on messages received online, the number of inappropriate comments received in pubs etc, but not in cases of serious assault. Something doesn't compute. 

No it isn't strange. And hence why I said that it is very important when discussing this topic to clarify what the context is, there is just way too much generalisations and hence misunderstanding.

As John Arran has said "At the risk of rising to whataboutery, people change the way they look to suit an intended audience, regardless of whether they are in the street at the wall or crag, or out clubbing. Online is little different."

That isn't whataboutery John in my opinion, but is at the core of this discussion.

First, clothing choice doesn't cause rape. This is well established and researched.

People of all sexes do dress smartly and sexily to attract a mate. In male-female relations where they congregate to find a mate, it is usually the male who approaches the female (that has been researched). Without going into too much detail this is carried over online, make your own conclusions.

Climbers, of all sexes wear clothing when climbing indoors and outdoors that is comfortable, fashionable and usually flattering. It probably isn't an overt mating display.

If you post an image online that it is sexy, it will attract more attention, in most cases, than one that isn't. However in climbing that line is blurred between athleticism and sex appeal.

And it is images we are talking about in this context, and the reaction they receive.

M

Bjartur i Sumarhus on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

Isn't it this attitude towards risk that perpetuates our little cherubs being ferried the 1km to school in a 4x4 tank because of Maddy McCann ?

Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> But however she is dressed she'd have to actually go to the party to be raped (putting aside the fact she's more likely to be assaulted at home), so following your "logic" your advice should be that she doesn't go to the party.

No, because the benefits of socialising are very clear to me.

Btw, she's not more likely to be assaulted at home. You are basing your risk assessment on statistics which cover the entire population, I am basing my risk assessment on knowledge of myself and my family.

Look in the mirror and say the words: "she's more likely to be assaulted at home", then follow up with "when your daughter receives dick pics do you tell her it's her fault". This is what you're saying to me. I think you have some long, hard thinking to do about online abuse.

TobyA on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

> If my daughter dressing in a sexually provocative way (note: provocative for sexual predators) 

Considering female victims of rape range from babies to elderly women, all ages, all sizes, all ethnicities, disabled and able bodied, straight and gay, how can you possibly say what is sexually provocative?

All you can say is what you think, or what you think others might think, is sexually provocative. It's not a the same thing.

1
Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

> Isn't it this attitude towards risk that perpetuates our little cherubs being ferried the 1km to school in a 4x4 tank because of Maddy McCann ?

I see your point but I don't think so because:

1) Rape is much more common than children disappearing. My kids always walked to school and played in the street. Sometimes didn't see them for the whole day. Of course you think about kids disappearing but you reason the fear away. Being outside and independent has so many benefits for them.

2) Dressing in a way which is less sexually provocative to predatory men doesn't seem a big deal to me. Maybe this is where the gulf in understanding comes from.

2
MonkeyPuzzle - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

> 2) Dressing in a way which is less sexually provocative to predatory men doesn't seem a big deal to me. Maybe this is where the gulf in understanding comes from.

"Provocative". See what you did there?

Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to TobyA:

> Considering female victims of rape range from babies to elderly women, all ages, all sizes, all ethnicities, disabled and able bodied, straight and gay, how can you possibly say what is sexually provocative?

Sorry Toby but this is insane. Are you actually trying to convince me that a scantily dressed young woman is not any more sexually provocative to your average young man at a party than an elderly, overweight man in a wheelchair!!!

Edit to add: Provocative as in provokes desire. I mean it to be taken literally, not suggestively.

Post edited at 11:14
1
Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> "Provocative". See what you did there?

Very much so. That's why I added "...for predatory men." 

tjdodd - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

Wow, tell me you have not just tried to turn avoiding sexual assault into a mathematical risk assessment problem?  You really need to do some reading on the subject and improve your understanding.

Bjartur i Sumarhus on 09 May 2019
In reply to Sealwife and Marsbar

Excellent posts, and well received here (father of two very young girls)

Question though in regards to STSP points about daughters dressing up to go out. Do you as mums, have/give opinions on what they are wearing when they go out? Have you ever felt they have dressed too inappropriately and tried to step in ? 

1
tjdodd - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

There is a huge difference between being sexually attractive and sexually provocative in the context of sexual assault.  When young people (and not just young people) go out they often want to look sexually attractive.  This is for a number of reasons as I have outlined before but that does not matter.  Therefore people will dress to make themselves sexually attractive.  I might find a woman in a short skirt sexually attractive, I might not.  Either way I will not sexually assault them.

People conduct sexual assault as they are violent criminals.  They will conduct sexual assaults regardless of what someone is wearing. For them it is about power, it has nothing to do with sex.  That is why sexual assaults are carried out on people regardless of what they are wearing.  Your comments about dressing sexily and sexual assault implies to me you think sexual assault is about sex - it is not.  And this is why people should not worry about how they dress.  They should feel confident in whatever they want to wear.  So in the terms that you are using it, I do not think it makes any sense to talk about sexually provocative clothing.  All clothing is potentially sexually provocative in terms of the risk of sexual assault.

Edit: I have just seen you referring to provocative to mean provoking desire.  Dressing sexily can be about provoking sexual desire but that has nothing to do with sexual assault.

Post edited at 11:18
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fotoVUE - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

> Sorry Toby but this is insane. Are you actually trying to convince me that a scantily dressed young woman is not any more sexually provocative to your average young man at a party than an elderly, overweight man in a wheelchair!!!

Of course they are. But it has been determined that there isn't a higher risk of rape.

It is more likely that certain locations have a higher risk of a violent attack, hence why parents need to educate their offspring about traveling alone, especially after dark.

Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to tjdodd:

> Wow, tell me you have not just tried to turn avoiding sexual assault into a mathematical risk assessment problem?  

If you read my conclusion I say it's impossible to even contemplate calculating it mathematically.

Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to tjdodd:

> There is a huge difference between being sexually attractive and sexually provocative in the context of sexual assault.  

Yeah I agree that I used inappropriate language which has led to people misunderstanding my point. I edited my comment to explain what I meant by provocative. Apologises.

MonkeyPuzzle - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

> Very much so. That's why I added "...for predatory men." 

Still definitely not the choice of adjective I would have gone for but anyway...

Predatory men are "provoked" by women and opportunity, and we need to stop creating so many of them.

Whether it's your intention or not, telling women to cover up lest they "provoke" said men is planting the seed in their head that they are somehow at least partly responsible if they're attacked. Even if they aren't unlucky enough for this ever to happen to them, it's yet another restriction (in this case self-applied) that women have imposed that men don't. Do you not see that if covering up = "responsible", then showing some skin = "irresponsible" and even "up for it"? It's all part of the same thing, even though it comes from a place of care.

Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

I talk to my daughter in French and to be honest I don't think there is a French expression for "sexually provocative" (I've certainly never heard the Google translation -sexuellement provocateur - being used, so my clumsy use of it here is not replicated in real life. I think I use "s'habiller sexy" when we're having this conversation. 

MonkeyPuzzle - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

Fair enough.

Michael Gordon - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> Because someone dropping a rock on your head (or sending a dick pic) is an action they take that causes harm. The person taking that action is to blame, it is their behaviour that needs addressing. I don't know why you find that complicated. 

Because I can't do much about someone else's behaviour or objective danger, but I can alter what I do to affect likely outcomes. Hence I might not climb below other parties on crags (when if you insist on talking about blame, I may be as responsible as them for the situation I find myself in), or I may go up snow slopes on a route before the sun hits them, or I may decide not to walk across a park at night while very drunk.

  

1
Michael Gordon - on 09 May 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> Because women are still blamed, constantly, for being attacked, abused and even raped. 

Perhaps so, but I think people should recognise that giving well intended advice does not equate to apportioning blame. 

2
Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

> You started with "lets get mathematical" and estimated some numbers. 

I didn't estimate any numbers. One catastrophic event in 500 gives a factor of 0.002.

> Then you admitted you're not qualified to estimate some other numbers you would need for even the sketchiest mathematical analysis. 

Yep

> Then you said some other factors are "impossible to envisage". 

No I said that being able to calculate the risk is impossible to envisage.

> And then you concluded that the maths proves you're right.

No, I concluded that because rape was a catastrophic event, and because the risk is impossible to calculate, and because increasing that risk by a factor of even 0.002 would statistically result in the event occurring, then I'd continue advising my daughter not to dress in too overtly sexually a way when she goes out to a party.

Now that people are telling me there is no correlation whatsoever between what young women wear and their chances of being sexually assaulted, I'm starting to reconsider my position. And it's kind of weird because I genuinely feel that my daughter appreciates these conversations (while continuing to do just as she pleases!).

Post edited at 12:43
Sir Chasm - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Because I can't do much about someone else's behaviour or objective danger, but I can alter what I do to affect likely outcomes. Hence I might not climb below other parties on crags (when if you insist on talking about blame, I may be as responsible as them for the situation I find myself in), or I may go up snow slopes on a route before the sun hits them, or I may decide not to walk across a park at night while very drunk.

You're not reading properly, these are people deliberately dropping a rock on your head, they are making a conscious choice to take that action - just like some blokes make the decision to send unsolicited dick pics.

MonkeyPuzzle - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> Perhaps so, but I think people should recognise that giving well intended advice does not equate to apportioning blame. 

Not equate, no, but it's lower down on the same spectrum. See my response to STSP at 11.33.

L 88Dan - on 09 May 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Why would you want to explain to young girls that flashing skin is not a personal invitation? does that mean that after all has been said, that a girls choice of clothing will not increase or guarantee the chance of sexual assault, you are now saying it will? Either girls can flash as much skin as they like and wear what they like or they can't, make your mind up son.

MonkeyPuzzle - on 09 May 2019
In reply to 88Dan:

Bit early to be drinking, Dan.

Michael Gordon - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Sir Chasm:

> You're not reading properly, these are people deliberately dropping a rock on your head, they are making a conscious choice to take that action - just like some blokes make the decision to send unsolicited dick pics.

WRONG. You didn't say deliberately. Please try and be a bit more polite.

I'm trying to think of a situation when someone might "drop" a rock on my head. The only one I can come up with is while climbing on an urban crag. It's a hard one to try and mitigate for, that's true. Some crags I've heard about that happening, but whether that would stop me from going would probably be assessed on a case by case basis. 

That someone may be to blame is secondary to my main concern which is to my health!

L 88Dan - on 09 May 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

I wish I was mate. It might help make sense of all that has been posted.

Sir Chasm - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> WRONG. You didn't say deliberately. Please try and be a bit more polite.

I said they dropped rocks on your head, and that that was an action they took. 

> I'm trying to think of a situation when someone might "drop" a rock on my head. The only one I can come up with is while climbing on an urban crag. It's a hard one to try and mitigate for, that's true. Some crags I've heard about that happening, but whether that would stop me from going would probably be assessed on a case by case basis. 

How about the specific scenario I gave you at 9:34, neds dropping rocks on your head, that you've now managed to come up with all by yourself? 

> That someone may be to blame is secondary to my main concern which is to my health!

But it isn't a force of nature like seracs falling. The neds chose to drop rocks on your head and blokes choose to send dick pics, they are actions people choose to take.

rogerwebb - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

I have spent quite a lot of time defending accused on charges of a sexual nature (something I have packed in this year as it overloads your brain eventually) and the guilty range from the truly evil against whom there is little defence through to the frustrated teenager. They all appear to me  to go for the perceived vulnerability rather than dress. I have heard the dress excuse but I think that comes from post incident self justification rather than true motivation.

deepsoup - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

>  and because increasing that risk by a factor of even 0.002 would statistically result in the event occurring

I don't understand that sentence at all, in mathematical terms it certainly seems nonsensical.  If you increase the probability that an unusual event will occur slightly what you have is an unusual event that is slightly more likely to occur.

> Now that people are telling me there is no correlation whatsoever between what young women wear and their chances of being sexually assaulted, I'm starting to reconsider my position.

From what I've read I'm sure that the correlation that, for example, 88Dan is assuming exists is greatly overstated.  Whether that means no correlation whatsoever I wouldn't like to say, but I very much agree with those posters who are pointing out the risk of victim blaming inherent in bringing that in to a discussion like this one.

It's incredibly rare to see someone say they're reconsidering their position in a thread like this.  The debate tends to get polarised and people get entrenched in their position, especially when they're basing their view on something personal.  I hope you won't think I'm being patronising if I congratulate you on your open-mindedness here.

> And it's kind of weird because I genuinely feel that my daughter appreciates these conversations (while continuing to do just as she pleases!).

Well we can debate whether or not your advice to your daughter is a bit misguided ad nauseum, but it is clear that it's coming from a good place.  Of course your daughter appreciates your concern.  (It would probably also be kind of weird if she didn't then go on to do as she pleases.) ;-)

Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to rogerwebb:

>  They all appear to me  to go for the perceived vulnerability rather than dress. 

You use the some word - vulnerable - that I used in my initial post about my daughter. Do you think the way a woman dresses can increase a man's perception of her vulnerability?

TobyA on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

> Do you think the way a woman dresses can increase a man's perception of her vulnerability?

That is a genuinely interesting question - I suspect not really, unless clothing was somehow a signal towards some actual form of vulnerability, such as being a sex worker, someone who is trans etc.

I think the way to think about this is to ask why you, or I, or most other men don't assault women? It's because, firstly, we know it is 'wrong' (speech marks just to show that right and wrong get defined in different ways for different people: God, Kantian categorical imperatives, gut-feeling etc.), we have human empathy to know how terrible it would make another person feel. Secondarily we know the law, we are afraid of prison, of the social stigma of being a criminal, we fear the social shunning of people we love and respect etc etc. Someone being very physically attractive to us or dressed in a sexualised way just doesn't alter those above consideration - it simply has no impact on our moral position that rape is a terrible crime.

I don't believe a man who says "I wouldn't have committed that crime if she hadn't been dressed that way". There's just no evidence that dress is enough to make some cross that moral threshold.

Post edited at 14:59
Michael Gordon - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

> Do you think the way a woman dresses can increase a man's perception of her vulnerability?

No. But it might well increase a man's perception of her attractiveness, or lead him to notice her when he otherwise may not have. And logically this would apply to the 'messed up' as well as the vast majority of decent men.

I don't doubt that the main attraction for a criminal could be their ability to get away with the crime (something valuable being left lying around, or in this case the victim being vulnerable). But first the crime itself needs to be appealing. Not much attraction in stealing something which isn't worth anything to anyone. 

2
SAF - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Michael Gordon:

> It seems strange that what women wear has an effect on messages received online, the number of inappropriate comments received in pubs etc, but not in cases of serious assault. Something doesn't compute. No-one is saying it has a great effect, but a very small effect seems likely, much more so than "absolutely no effect at all, ever". 

I've received some horrendous sexually explicit harassment at work (member of public filming me and posting video to his mates telling them what he wanted to do to me) and I can assure you that there is nothing whatsoever skimpy or sexy about my work uniform (it's unisex for a start).

The New NickB - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Michael Gordon:

Are these things always about finding people attractive, rape often isn’t. I don’t see any reason why sending dick picks would be any different. Not that I have any insight in to the minds of men who do this.

Durbs on 09 May 2019
In reply to TobyA:

> I think the way to think about this is to ask why you, or I, or most other men don't assault women? It's because, firstly, we know it is 'wrong' (speech marks just to show that right and wrong get defined in different ways for different people: God, Kantian categorical imperatives, gut-feeling etc.), we have human empathy to know how terrible it would make another person feel. Secondarily we know the law, we are afraid of prison, of the social stigma of being a criminal, we fear the social shunning of people we love and respect etc etc. Someone being very physically attractive to us or dressed in a sexualised way just doesn't alter those above consideration - it simply has no impact on our moral position that rape is a terrible crime.

Yep - and it's likely the anonymity of the internet that removes most of this barrier regarding online harassment. They probably even know it's wrong, but the chance of being caught/called out is so slim they do it anyway.

As you say, what the victim is wearing is redundant to the cause; if you HAD to use your real name and could only post publicly, I'd wager harassment would drop almost entirely.

Some time some place - on 09 May 2019
In reply to deepsoup:

> >  and because increasing that risk by a factor of even 0.002 would statistically result in the event occurring

> I don't understand that sentence at all

First of all you were right about me estimating a number (which I subsequently denied doing!). I estimated that my daughter would have 500 nights out as a teenager/young woman. I think it's a conservative estimate.

Part of my job is teaching people to mitigate risk and I've thought about this a lot. My point is that if you do something which has a very low risk many times then it will probably catch up with you. If you expose yourself to a 0.2% risk (factor 0.002), 500 times then that risk will probably manifest itself once (0.2% x 500 = 100%). If the consequences of that risk are catastrophic then you have to give them seriously consideration. If going to a party in skimpy hot pants/crop top increases your chance of being assaulted by 0.2% (compared to someone in jeans/T-shirt) then that should be given  serious consideration. 0.2% seems to be a very low risk when you're in the process of doing something, but repeat it 500+ times and it catches up with you at some point. This is not the same as assigning blame, it's just recognising that there are violent sexual predators out there who pose a risk to women. 

Many posters have questioned the role of clothes in this assessment and mentioned other factors that mitigate the risk such as not getting drunk and being surrounded by friends. I'm wondering which of these contributes most to my daughter's safety. She, like many of her friends, seems to enjoy all aspects of partying!

Most people seem to think the most effective ways are (1) not getting drunk and (2) being with friends. Dressing conservatively doesn't seem to be considered a very useful strategy.

Sorry for making this mathematical. The numbers are just for clarity, they have no founding just illustrate how tiny risks can multiply. However, I'd still be interested to get a reply to a question someone asked above about whether the mums on here ever suggest their daughters should tone down their appearance before going out. 

> It's incredibly rare to see someone say they're reconsidering their position in a thread like this.  

Believe me, I can be pretty intransigent on subjects I'm knowledgeable about, but I haven't been to a party or night club in a long, long time!

Post edited at 16:14
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tjdodd - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Some time some place:

"Part of my job is teaching people to mitigate risk and I've thought about this a lot. My point is that if you do something which has a very low risk many times then it will probably catch up with you. If you expose yourself to a 0.2% risk (factor 0.002), 500 times then that risk will probably manifest itself once (0.2% x 500 = 100%)."

You need to read up on probability if this is what you think.  In the example you give, assuming the risk events are independent then the probability will always be 0.002 or a 0.2% risk.  It will never increase and certainly never be a probability of 1 (100%).  So if you take the risk of a sexual assault as being 0.2% each time you go out then this will never change.  The risk does not increase conditionally based on how many times you have been out previously.

If we lived in a world where risk increased in the way you describe we would never do anything because you would be almost certain to die prematurely from some accident (and not old age).  If anything the risk decreases with time as life experience makes you adapt to reduce the risk of individual events.

fotoVUE - on 09 May 2019

One of this issues here is social media as well, and its lack of robust privacy controls and also its lack of moderation of comments. Especially by Facebook/Instagram and What's App all owned by Mark Zuckerberg.

This is worth a read, just published.

<<Facebook’s business model is built on capturing as much of our attention as possible to encourage people to create and share more information about who they are and who they want to be. We pay for Facebook with our data and our attention, and by either measure it doesn’t come cheap.>>

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/09/opinion/sunday/chris-hughes-facebook-zuckerberg.html

Sealwife - on 09 May 2019
In reply to Bjartur i Sumarhus:

In answer to your question re how do I feel as a mum about my teenage daughters dress sense and do I ever interfere (quote original option doesn’t seem to work on my phone).

I’m far more concerned about who they are with, where they are going and how they are getting home.  I try my hardest to wind my neck in with regard to their fashion sense.    I have only truly raised my eyebrows once and that was my 14 year old heading out with all of us for a family meal in what appeared to be her underwear - was informed it was a “bralette”.  

I realised that my baulking at her clothing had more to do with the realisation that she was growing up and no longer a wee girl than any perceived issue of her sexual availability.


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