UKC

Lecturer, writer and recent member of the 7a club, Paul Sagar, shares some tips on breaking into the 7s...

Around the time I started taking outdoor climbing seriously, a friend said to me: "Let's face it, if you can't climb 6a the first time you top-rope, you're never going to lead 7a". Back then, I thought this sounded pretty plausible. Indeed, if you currently climb in the low 6s, 7a may seem impossibly hard. I'd see people sending hard routes, and assume they'd either been climbing for decades, or were genetically gifted in a way I could never match. But that, it turns out, is nonsense. How do I know? Because I'm living proof that with enough training and dedication, anyone can climb 7a.

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In reply to UKC Articles:

Great article. The main thing I see time and time again with climbers below 7a but not quite getting it is the barriers they put up. It's too greasy/too hot/too cold/I'm tired/ the route needs cleaning/I'm not wearing my lucky pants lol. There also must be a mental element of the 7a grade as so many people see it as a barrier. 

Good luck with Left Wall, to be honest if you're climbing 7a you could smash Right Wall! 

 

In reply to UKC Articles:

The essential idea behind the article is a good one but in some ways the article massively overstates what it takes to get from F6a to F7a. Indeed some people might be put off by the idea that you have to follow a programme and do core exercises and improve your footwork and do finger extensor exercises and use a system board and cut out the junk! To boil it down, you could forget about all that and just redpoint it - find yourself a F7a that is conveniently located and project it. Get a top rope on it, work the moves until they are wired, work the clips and lead it. To improve the speed of progress, get on it with someone who can redpoint F7a quickly of similar height and work out the beta together. I could take a 6a climber out and get them up a 7a in probably a few months or even quicker this way. 

In reply to ericinbristol:

Whilst I can see where you're coming from, I think it just comes down to different people, different processes - you've just got to find a method that works for you.

For what it's worth, I did my first 7a by going climbing a lot, then trying one. Originally I'd aimed to onsight it, simply because that's how I climbed at the time (coming from trad background). In the end I blew the onsight on a route I liked, then went on to work it (which is basically the method you've outlined). Maybe I did a bit of traversing at the wall, but certainly nothing structured. I'm not even sure finger-boarding had become a thing at that point in time?!

 

In reply to ericinbristol:

I think that will be true for some people, for sure. But it does rely on you being able to regularly go and project one route - and that route has to be in a style you are good at. 

I was more thinking about people like me: i.e. who aren't very naturally gifted, and only get to sport climb outside at irregular intervals, rarely at the same crag (because if you live in much of the UK, you can't go to Spain, or Portland/North Wales/the Peak District/etc at the drop of a hat). Hence, if you want to get to the point where there is a realistic prospect of climbing 7a outdoors, off the back of a few reappoint burns, you'll need to train indoors - and that requires some focus.

Of course, better climbers than me will find this much easier to achieve. But I wanted to write this article to encourage people who think it's *impossible* to get to that kind of level to see that really it isn't. It's hard (for many people) - but that's not the same thing. I reckon a lot of people give up before they even really try because the goal seems too distant. I just wanted to try and make it a little less distant.

In reply to deacondeacon:

I'm going to take it easy. I still spend a loooooong time trying to put the wrong nuts in the wrong places, and getting pumped accordingly. I mean, I fell of a VS* last week, so I don't want to rush it. 

 

*it was an VS at Almscliff, in my defence, and it was a very rude lesson in learning how to hand jam. Gritstone is not my friend, yet.

In reply to UKC Articles:

I'd agree with Eric that this massively overstates the effort required. I'd have assumed that several of the individual elements of this would be enough to get well beyond 7a in isolation (I mean, dropping 12kg is a huge deal for power to weight) and that doing all them in combination should mean 7a is no more than a stepping stone.

Some of them I disagree with in terms of bang per buck even out of the list of non-actual-rock things you could do, and at least one (climbing in bad shoes) I think is fundamentally a terrible thing to do.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

If you can't go to redpoint the route regularly, all you need to do is pick your route, make sure you know what the moves are and then find things at your local indoor wall that are as similar to that as possible (roped for the whole route, bouldering for the hardest moves). Because specificity is king, a 6a climber will redpoint that 7a route much faster this way than yours.

I disagree that taking a redpointing approach means it has to be in a style you are good at. If 6a is your current limit you are not good at any style tbh. It's about selecting one in a style that is not pointlessly morpho (e.g. massively reach dependent).

The simple and specific approach I am suggesting is more suited to the less naturally gifted than the comprehensive general training you put forward. 

In reply to UKC Articles:

The route you did is called Indian Holidays (7a), not Indian Dreams, but you are right when you say it's solid at 7a, it's also excellent, one of my favourite at the grade in Margalef!

In reply to UKC Articles:

I liked the article. I thought it gave some good practical tips in good humour. Enjoyed the tidbit about random drinking injuries!

It definitely took me a year or two to build up to 7a outside, even though more talented climbers seem not to notice it as a significant grade stepping stone. I think a big thing is who else you climb with and what they perceive as hard.

For me the main thing was learning steep rock technique, step throughs, twisting in, drop knees etc.

I suspect losing 12kg will catapult a competent climber up several grades on its own though.

In reply to AJM:

Yes, I agree. Climbing in crap shoes is not a good way to go from 6a to 7a. Crap shoes get in the way of improving as you learn false lessons about what is and isn't a hold and you end up with more weight on your weak fingers instead of through your toes.

In reply to UKC Articles:

I redpointed my first 7a a few days ago. I started climbing 32 years ago. So lots of enthusiasm but no noticeable natural talent. To boil it down, I never trained (boring!), I got by on technique and flexibility (female) and backed off the minute the wall became overhanging and the holds got small. I like on-sight climbing and multi-pitch, I like cruising on routes I find interesting but do-able. So not a redpointer by inclination. And I'm (mostly) too scared to take lead falls. 

Getting that 7a took me six months of vague focus. (I don't have access to indoor climbing for training and I spent the first 3 of those months ski-touring.) I got myself from no push-ups to 50. Then installed a pull-up bar. Got from none to about 4. Got a beastmaker 1000. Put in a few sessions. Went looking for a 7a project. Tried Kalymnos, got a 6c+ but found the 7as all too steep. Found a project near my home in Catalunya that suited my style. Got it in three work sessions. Training works! Who knew?! 

7a did feel *impossible* for most of those 30 years, but to be honest, I never really tried very hard. 

In reply to Paul Sagar:

We could do an interesting race - both of us get someone who has never led harder than F6a (redpoint or onsight) and see who gets their climber to redpoint F7a first. 

In reply to UKC Articles:

Great article, thanks.

As someone who use to onsight 6c and was trying to break into 7a it rings true.

I'm now trying to get back to that level but the one thing that I find frustrating is the massive amount of info that is out there! As a punter, I can't figure out which programme is better than what programme, which of the many core exercises to do and which not to etc etc.

Call me lazy if you want, but I just wish there was a programme that you could follow and be done with it! i.e. do this on day 1, then do these stretches on day 2, then do these core exercises on day 3. Job done, you're now Steve McLure

What's this Andersons programme that you mention? 

In reply to Dandan:

Yes, it is called Indian Holidays! Not at all sure how that went wrong. Could someone at UKC edit accordingly?! 

In reply to ericinbristol:

I guess then the difference may be that I am offering a way of becoming what you might call "a 7a climber", versus "a climber who managed to climb just one 7a but wouldn't be able to repeat that on any other routes"? My guess is that most people looking to improve their climbing want to be *consistently* climbing the grade, not just able to tick one route for the sake of it.

Having said that, I've still only got the one tick to my name, so perhaps I shouldn't talk too soon. Although I am pretty dubious that a 6a climber could climb 7a by just working the route (although I suppose it depends on the route). When I was a 6a climber 7a was literally physically impossible for me: didn't have the finger strength, forearm endurance, footwork and balance required - and I only got the through consistent focused training.

But yes, let's find some willing recruits and have a race!

On the bad shoes point - I know this one is controversial. I felt it helped me, because I had to really pay attention to what my feet were doing rather than trusting the shoe to carry me through. 

At any rate, I think it's important not to over-do the shoe thing. As long as your shoes are *good enough*, your actual technique is what is making the difference, and having 7 different £100 pairs for different "styles" aint going to be as effective as hard work.

 

In reply to monsoon:

It's a book (with accompanying website) called "The Rock Climber's Training Manual".  I found it very effective, although the ARC training is reeeaaalllyyy tedious.

I had to buy it from American amazon as for some reason the UK amazon didn't seem to carry it.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Question, you don't mention your age, how old are you?

Relevant to old farts like myself (59 - I know, some of you will be thinking "youngster") who still aspire to improve and hope that we were nowhere near our potential when we were young

In reply to Paul Sagar:

I don't see why my 7a redpointer would not be able to do other 7as. They would do exactly the same thing - redpoint them. And in redpointing one 7a they would have improved physically and mentally and would be able to do broadly similar 7as much faster than they got from 6a to 7a, a scope that would widen as they took on an increasing variety of routes. 

Yes, the race sounds like fun. We just need a couple of volunteers!

In reply to Paul Sagar:

Yep, agree about not overstating the shoe thing.

In reply to Michael Hood:

I'm 31. I've been climbing in a serious way for about 2 years, after a couple of years of very lazy gym-only bouldering.

My guess is that age makes a difference, but in peculiar ways. I met a guy who was 69 climbing 7a in Kalymnos last year, and he made it look like a breeze. I think if you start young (say, in your teens) 7a is going to come around fast and not seem very hard. My guess is if you start in your late 20s, it's likely going to be harder (though again, some people will just be more naturally gifted than others). I wouldn't be entirely surprised if there's not much difference between late 20s through to mid 40s. 

In reply to Paul Sagar:

I really need to pull my finger out and train properly.

I also need to carry on losing weight, still got another 2 stone to get back to a weight I've not seen in 15 years. Surely that'll make a difference.

In reply to UKC Articles:

I climb with people every time I got bouldering at the gym who are capable of climbing 7a. Chatting to them, most of them aspire to climb the grade but think it's beyond them. 

Tactics (i.e. the whole approach to redpointing) and actually getting on a 7a route. That's the difference. 

 

In reply to UKC Articles:

I would think going climbing a lot with good climbers who can show you good habits would be top of the list for improving, and also enjoying climbing. This article is very training orientated, maybe if you’re just after the numbers it’s a good way to go, but where’s the love for climbing, all that training doesn’t leave much time for actually climbing and having fun.

In reply to RockSteady:

Gaining it certainly kicks one someway back down the grades

The article looks more like a prescription for 8a than 7a. For someone keen and halfway climbing fit 7a is an exercise in learning to red-point which isn't to belittle anyone that's not got there or found it hard, it's a skill in itself.

jk

In reply to dan gibson:

Totally agree. There are far more important things than climbing 7a. Like, having fun climbing, whatever the grade.

But if you do want to push yourself, these are some ways. I'm a weirdo who actively enjoys training for goals. I enjoy the process (well, some of the time) and not just the end-point. 

I guess you could see it as a bit like training for a marathon? Inherently pointless and much less fun than just going for a nice jog in the woods - but an achievement a lot of people get satisfaction from working towards.

In reply to jkarran:

I am pretty sure I will never be able to climb 8a!

I really think a lot of people who can climb 7a don't realise/have forgotten how hard it is for your average climber! It really isn't a push over...

In reply to jkarran:

In the 80's we just use to go and try 7a's  on at the time new fangled bolted routes in France with little concept of training and just a desire to improve and get up the routes.The question was always- " that looks good shall we give it a try." Sometimes it worked sometimes it did not.

Older and wiser now, but looking back I cannot help but feel that sometimes you should in this day and age just ignore all the training and give it a shot.

The difference of course was that most of us had a few years of trad climbing under our belts.

I enjoyed the article.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Going climbing lots and improving your technique should constitute 90% of your 'training' to climb 7a. Worry about the other stuff later. Just be confident and try one.

In reply to Rob Greenwood - UKClimbing:

Agree. Understanding own your weakness is important, and your strengths if you want to pick the correct places to break mental barriers.

Albeit I think on steep lime you would find a correlation between hand strength and weight with the majority of people who climb 7 and upward.

I found I went from the 6s to 7s by doing some really random training with a gymnast. Was quick gains too..

 

In reply to Paul Sagar:

I'm sure but I'm probably not one of them. I never got much past gasping my way up low 7s and have more recently failed HS and VS the last couple times I've climbed. Try some harder stuff, you might surprise yourself especially if you've been putting in the work, for most of us most of the time our limitations are more mental than physical.

jk

In reply to neilh:

Me too when I dabbled in sport. It's hard to put a value on that background but it clearly is of value.

Me too.

jk

In reply to Paul Sagar:

From the article you've posted you've set out a training program that looks a lot more rigorous than mine was at any point when I was chasing the magic 8. 

My view is that whilst it looks mega overkill for 7a (which isn't to say it doesn't work, obviously, but you could do the job far more simply and theres places I think you could make better use of time) theres nothing particularly missing from it that won't keep taking you up the grades if you keep applying it. 8a is no more magic than 7a, it just requires a longer period of application of the same general principles.

 

In reply to Paul Sagar:

Exactly.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

And a lot of people who haven't climbed 7a think it is a lot harder than it is because they have not learned how to redpoint.

 

In reply to UKC Articles:

The easiest way to climb 7a is climb a 6c and just sit back and drink beer for a few years, the next guide book will come out and bingo! I got to 7b this year

As a committed punter who previously (and currently) wouldn't fancy my chances on anything more than 6a, I redpointed 7a a couple of years ago.  Here's the 3 month plan that worked for me:

Month 1: quit drinking; go running a few times a week (~30 mins); stretch

Month 2: go running, do yoga, go bouldering every weekday; climb multipitch one or two days every weekend

Month 3: go to Kalymnos, learn to fall and redpoint, and then project

I also know of people who climbed 7a within months of starting climbing. 

So I suspect for a lot of people, 7a isn't actually very far away.  Then again, for others it might be verging on impossible.

In reply to humptydumpty:

 

Two good statements there. Some people are "naturals" and don't need a huge amount of training/practice. Some people really struggle right from the start and only with a huge amount of training and practice will they have a chance of reaching 7a. Even then the later may never make it.

In reply to UKC Articles:

I enjoyed the article, and found it quite motivating. I think the underlying message is that most of us could probably climb harder if we want to!

I'm also someone who's gone from climbing about 6b to a 7a redpoint over the last couple of years. I had actually been climbing for around 10 years and had seen some steady improvements over that time. But then I found myself motivated to want to improve a bit more (I was never particularly focused on a particular grade like getting to 7a, just wanted to get better). So I started doing a bit more focused training. 

I think the thing that helped me most was getting a couple of sessions with a coach. I think doing some of the things that you've suggested like systems boards and following a specific training programme might not actually be necessary for many people to get to 7a. (I didn't do either) If you can target your specific weaknesses it's going to be a lot easier than trying to train everything, and I think for many people (me included) it's often hard to identify and also be honest about your own weaknesses, so getting someone to help can make it a lot easier.

 

In reply to Cathy:

Slightly off topic but:

No press ups to 50 in 6 months is super impressive.I started doing some strength training (mainly for injury prevention) about a year ago. It took me ages to do one, and after a year I can now manage 7-8. What is the secret?

In reply to UKC Articles:

I found the bit about core training interesting. Has anyone else found that doing core exercises has drastically improved their climbing? 

Core isn't something I've really trained at all over the years, despite doing a lot of climbing. I'm keen to give it a shot if several people give me a positive testimony!

In reply to UKC Articles:I thought this an interesting article.  While that's a rather sophisticated training plan, the fact you've done the training will remove the mental block many have about going up  grade.  If we accept that for many 7a (or whatever) is a purely mental block, it's easier to cross it if you know you've done the training to do so.

 

In reply to Brendan:

Core strength is really important on steep ground. If you boulder a lot above v5 ish or sport climb mid 7s upwards, there can be a lot to gain. At sport 7a, I'd say specific core training will make little difference unless you pick a specific unusual route like the big caves at Kaly.

In reply to dan gibson:

Yes, agree with Dan. Just going climbing lots with climbers who are already climbing 7a and above will get most people to 7a in time. It's important to enjoy the climbing and just being at the crag having fun.

I think my first 7a was Consenting Adults at Malham. At the time, somewhere in the late 80's, we used to go to Malham, do some trad and then try one or two of the easier bolted routes, get spanked, do some more trad. Over time we just got better from simply trying again and again. Not very scientific or training oriented, but that would have made it a sport and we most definitely were not out climbing as a sport, even when on bolted routes. Football, rugby, athletics, cricket were all sport and we certainly were not into those things.

TJB.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

It's fairly easy to climb 7a in the grand scheme of things. That's presumably evident from (a) the sheer number of people who do so regularly and (b) the fact you managed it yourself in 2 years despite claiming to have no talent or natural fitness.

Well done managing to stick to a structured training regime over that period - like others i don't agree with all of it, but the experience will definitely setcyou up well. If you are only 31, have done 7a inside two years and enjoy training like that then you are certainly capable of climbing 8a one day. I started at 19 but it took me about 7 years to climb 7a, then about 5 more years to climb 8a. I'm still getting better at 34 with a baby son. Once you understand how to improve rather than just climb randomly twice a week, it just requires sustained effort over a number of years, and perhaps some luck at times to find out what works for you to break out of a plateau. The preponderance of training advice and improved ''diagnostics" now available from people like Lattice are making this ever-easier. Your stated desire to continuously improve (rather than just do a particular route) can definitely be helpful too. Specific goals are great, but sometimes lead to stagnation and lack of motivation for a period when you complete them.

Si

 

In reply to Si dH:

No it's not!

 

In reply to Skip:

It is...

In reply to Paul Sagar:

As long as you continue to believe that it will definitely be true

In reply to Si dH:

Possible for a large number of people who are naturally good at climbing and/or practice/train in a focused way. Not possible for everyone and certainly not "fairly easy" in any meaning of the phrase.

In reply to Si dH:

The only thing is probably add here is to say that the core that's useful for moving your feet about and keeping your feet on on steep ground and the core that lots of climbers spend time training are quite often not the same thing. L-sits and sit ups and so on are all well and good to get your feet back on the wall but what you really want is not to cut loose in the first place.

In reply to ericinbristol:

I'd volunteer myself, but only going outdoors for the first time on Saturday, so whoever wants to lose I'm your choice!

 

In reply to AJM:

Planks, deadlifts and front levers then?

In reply to stp:

I'd probably just go climb on a steep board, or for 7a a medium steep wall.

But of your list:

- I'm not sure about planks as they've always basically just felt like ab exercises

- I always think of a front lever as shoulders/back but yes I'd love to be able to for kicks if nothing else

- I'd probably do some deadlifting if I went to a gym regularly or otherwise had access to the weights.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Great article. Like others I think this is useful for those already climbing 7a and above too.

I think the advice about shoes is interesting. I climb in cheap shoes a lot of the time too. A big advantage is also simply that they cost a lot less and, if you're climbing a lot, shoes don't last that long. For indoors and many outdoor routes, expensive boots are not necessary.

I disagree with those who say you learn poor technique with crap shoes. I've just recently started using better shoes (because I was flailing on the route I was trying with small footholds) and I think the adaption process is really quick: like as soon as you start climbing you quickly notice the difference and start climbing differently, using smaller holds etc..

Yep, climbing is pointless, but then so is life ultimately too. We create our own meaning and, for those who enjoy it, climbing is a great way to add structure and a point to our lives.

Finally congrats on your first 7a, hopefully the first of many.

In reply to UKC Articles: Hi, I have not read all the comments though I note various people  i know, all of whom climb harder than 7a are suggesting the things that I would expect them to suggest, all valid.

I went from struggling on much above 6a to 7a+  in probably about five years, in my fifties, working full time, with not very good health or fitness.

All the things mentioned in the article are valid but I don't think I really did any of them-I did have a remote trad history but had been completely away from the rock for over 25 years.

So what did I do-

1. Climb outside as much as possible.

2. Climb with people better than me some of the time.

3. have regular partners.

4. get inspired by going off to exciting beautiful places and doing a course or two with Neil Gresham, Adrian Berry etc-that proved I could climb 6b+ and climb far further than I realised when pumped.

5. now I knew I could climb further than i thought when pumped I was able to learn at each step up that there are still jugs and rests.

6. Get tactical and rest.

7. Stop top roping.

8. Embrace falling.

9. Try harder and keep trying-i have not styled any 7a, some i have had both my feet off on and still clawed my way to the top.

10. Go to the wall regularly though I am a shit boulderer and have never done a 7a indoors

I think that, for me, is about it, each effort was learnt from (that could be 11-think about what you are doing, look at pictures and routes) each success spurred the next step.

Once I had done one 7a they did get much easier and i have managed 15 or so as well as some 7a+'s, and flashed 6c+. Heading towards being rounded.

Oh, can feel number 12 coming on, make one more foot move, even when you don't want to.

Not sure where I will plateau out but even after recent surgery I am aiming to keep improving till I am 60 at least.

Get stuck in, as Si and others say it is very doable and great fun.

Rich

And don't be too fat of course.

 

 

In reply to Cati:

Outside and inside can be almost different disciplines. Enjoy, and don't be disheartened if the grades and effort don't quite match up. 6a outside is an excellent grade, so is 7a. Both are worthy goals. 

For what it's worth, I got stuck at 6a for years, and then again at 7a for years. To date as I get fat, I didn't make 8a outside, but I know in the past I've been fit and skilled enough to tick one or two. Getting on them has been the issue for me.

I've never done any structured training, besides regularly trying hard on routes which are hard for me, but then I took years in getting to 7a. Hats off to the op,  in doing so in 2 years...... I'd echo others comments on tying on to more and harder routes. Who knows where it'll take you? And there's only one way of finding out!

Good luck. Nice to read a real life areticle btw.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Good article but as others have said for most problem it isn’t necessary to follow a particularly structured training program or get on the boards to redpoint or even flash 7a. Going to the wall a couple of times a week (more if not climbing outdoors a day or two a week), focusing on technique, losing weight if necessary and redpointing should be sufficient. Everyone is different though.

Only thing is, 7a is still punter level - we’re all punters compared with the pros

In reply to Brendan:

Core does more than help keep your feet on. If you consider that every movement you make originates from your core, then improving core strength will assist general stability through your shoulders, back and hips. It's really noticeable! (for me anyway).

In reply to Misha:

Even going to the wall for midweek training could be viewed as overkill for getting to 7a.  I got to 7a and then through the grades to 8a on a base of going to Malham / Kilnsey every weekend - no non-climbing exercises, and midweek activity limited to holiday days. 

I now have intermittent phases of training at home midweek - due to relatively recent purchases of fingerboards and a woodie - but that's as much for enjoyment / satisfaction as anything.  I am not entirely convinced it has produced gains beyond the climbing at weekends / on my holiday allowance. 

TLDR version: Moose's Laws of red-pointing:
(1) Try hard as hard as you can, whenever you can.
(2) Just. Keep. Turning Up.

In reply to Cati:

Thanks for stepping up! I am happy to take out whoever is within reach of Cheddar/Avon/Wye Valley

In reply to thebigfriendlymoos

I climb with someone who gets strong that easily but it's rare.. your lucky!

Mostpeople will probably be doing fairly intense training or climbing 3ish times a week to operate above 7.

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Your thoughts on core align with mine.

I also feel light when my core is very strong, I think it allows me to distribute the force through different points of contact easier..

 

In reply to UKC Articles:

Except I would disagree about wearing bad shoes. That just encourages sloppy footwork. You don’t need anything high end for indoors but get a decent pair. 5.10 Anasazis, that sort of thing. 

In reply to ericinbristol:

Why the bee in your bonnet? The advice may not work for you personally but it was a great article! Thanks Paul! 

In reply to elliott92:

No bee in my bonnet. I am having a relaxed discussion, and not about what works for me personally, but ideas about relative merits of doing different things. My engagements have all been completely friendly, I complimented the article right at the start, and the race suggestion is all intended as a bit of fun.

In reply to Paul Sagar:

You mention climbing outdoors irregularly. That’s fairly critical. You have to do a lot more indoor training to compensate for not doing enough mileage outside, at least at these relatively low grades (if you’re projecting 9a, may be it’s the other way round, I don’t know). Conversely, if you could spend most weekends from April till October climbing on real rock, you won’t need to do as much indoors, especially if you can focus on redpointing a few projects. 

In reply to Paul Sagar:

Good luck with Left Wall. It’s well protected and 6b at most. If you can onsight 7a (as in most 7as, not just the odd one), you should be able to do Right Wall, never mind Left Wall. It’s would require a solid trad apprenticeship though!

In reply to UKC Articles:

This article is really an advert. 

In reply to thebigfriendlymoose:

To be fair, I suspect most people on the Catwalk climbing similar grades to you train a lot more! Seem to recall you come from a background of fairly hard bouldering so have a good base to build on.

Keeping at it - yes, definitely. 

In reply to Paul Sagar:

I love a bit of training and if it's what you need to do to get you up your route in a respectable time frame then good for you. 

That said, there's one point I have to make: 

Bad fitting shoes breed bad footwork.

The reality is you need a good pair of well fitting shoes in order to learn how to place your feet well. Once this process is complete you will then be able to climb to a reasonable degree in shit shoes, simply because your footwork is already very good - but this doesn't mean they should be part of the process. 

In reply to Paul Sagar:

That's what I said when I wrote a similar article to you 10 year ago (see profile for link).

Now I have done several 7cs, and can do my 8a project with just one rest.

Redpointing is a game in patience. At 39 and with a young family, I maybe get on my project once a month, twice if I'm very lucky. Then it's too hot in the summer, usually wet in the winter etc. Patience. It will go one day.

In reply to Misha:

Every time I read an article like the OPs (including my own from a long time ago), I tend to think this exact thought, BUT...

...if you look carefully, usually the people who say such things find the grade in question fairly easy, at least according to their profile. I suspect that these stronger climbers either:

a) were talented enough to blast through the grade very quickly - I have seen a novice climber with 1 month experience flash a 7a!

b) have forgotten how hard they had to try at the time.

So I also tend to think that it is important to realise (as you said also) that we are all different, and find different levels of challenge. So I am sympathetic to the article also.

Ultimately, however, I do believe that for 90% of climbers, the vast majority of training literature can be summarised by a single phrase: try harder!

In reply to Alun:

I also think that a lot of climbing at an individuals potential is psychological - in the head. Some of the people I climb with are significantly stronger, more powerful and fitter than I am, but struggle on routes they should onsight or redpoint without too much difficulty. They seem to find the mental aspect - bearing down, pushing on, getting jiggy with it, just doing it - whatever you want to call it, quite difficult.

When it starts to get hard for me, I find myself telling the doubter in my head that I really want to do this and don't want to fall off and have to start again. I suppose experience at onsighting and redpointing plays a significant role, knowing when to relax on a route and when to "turn it on".

TJB.

In reply to Elsier:

I think the secret was consistency of effort! I started with 3 sets of 7, done with knees on the ground. At the start I could sometimes do 1 proper one, some days even that one didn't happen. I plugged it into a habit-tracking app and did it daily. It was jagged progress, some days were worse that the day before, but week by week, I got better 1 'proper' push-up at a time. Half-way through I improved my form, which made it harder, so went backwards for a while on numbers. But sometimes I got big jumps in improvement. It took just under 100 days of daily effort to get to 50 (done as 5 x 10). 

Now it is sliding backwards a bit as I've swopped to pull-ups (1 at a time!) and hangboard. But still way better than when I started last November. (My goal was 50 before I turned 50 - I'm 49.) 

In reply to UKC Articles:

Didn't have the time to read all the comments, nor the actual article...

But as a general comment, when talkin' about sport climbs... sub 5s is generally the approach. 6s are warmups, cooldowns or mileage days. 7s is where sport climbing begins and 8s require work... 9s... weellllll talent and work .

So 7a is actually the starting grade for sport climbing, hence not at all a crusher but like a punter in sport climbing terms.

In reply to Alun:

Yes, there’s an element of that. Having said that, personally I don’t find proper 7a easy to onsight (ignoring the soft touches) but still wouldn’t say you need to do loads of training for that.

Agree about ‘try harder’.

In reply to UKC Articles:

As the author acknowledges, this reads a bit like a condensed version of the Anderson's Rock Climbers Training Manual. I think this is a good programme for getting from 7a to 8a, but emphasises the wrong areas for most people wanting to get from 6a to 7a. Below 7a, I suggest the biggest weakness for most people lies somewhere between the shoulders and the helmet. This includes fear of falling but also factors like self-belief and motivation. Neither the Andersons nor this article consider these to any degree.

Natalie makes plausible arguments for why core training might be important but she is climbing at 8a rather than 6a. My personal experience after doing intensive back and abdominal muscle exercises for 9 months for a back injury is it made no difference to climbing slightly overhanging 7a-7bs.

In reply to UKC Articles:

I think context and geography are really important here. Whilst the training programme/periodisation described in the article may appear to be 'a bit much' to some, for others this will be an approach that works. Living in Reading, being on call for various weekends through the good weather periods, availability of partners, other hobbies - all this contributes to me not being able to go out and try my project every weekend. Sure, one of those is a choice, but it's a choice I will be sticking to to keep my life a little more balanced than just work/climb/sleep. 

Living a couple of hours away from rock makes climbing harder stuff more intimidating in a way, as you can't get out and get familiar with a route frequently. 

I punted around for a couple of years, just enjoying climbing. I could probably climb 7b if I redpointed it and put in consistent time on the route (I mean a proper 7b, for anyone who checks my logbook The Imp (7a+) is not 7b it's probably about 6c+). For me, the most accessible way to improve my chances of getting up the next grade is a training programme indoors. Once I've put one together, I'll probably look at it for a while and consider starting it

In reply to Kevster:

Thank you for noticing the absolute newbie and for the encouragement  I'm pretty excited about it! (and getting ready for the "disappointment" regarding the grades). I'll stick to "having fun" and "trying hard" as goals, and forget about grades for now.

 

In reply to ericinbristol:

I'm afraid I'm based in London. I don't rule out going to your area in the future, but obviously not the right volunteer for your purposes.

In reply to Cati:

No worries, have fun, might see you on a crag one day

In reply to UKC Articles:

Ability is all very personal but personally I didn't do any training, dieting, anything except climbing about once a week- just found a 7a that suits me (short), dogged it about 4 times until I had the moves laced and then did it clean

As for translating that to Right Wall - absolutely not! different world of stamina, commitment and psychology

 

In reply to MischaHY:

Neglecting footwork ingrains bad technique, not shoes.

I have never owned a pair of well fitting shoes because I have freakishly wide feet. My shoes have typically has a couple of cms of empty space at the end of my shoes, which turns every foothold less than about 10mm deep from an edge to a smear.  As a result I pretty much gave up climbing for 10 years because I couldn't make any progression because it was impossible to use the footholds on harder climbs.

I recently modified an old pair of 5.10s that were 2 sizes to big by unstitching the toe box and sewing them back together so they were a proper fit, I had to  resole them myself using homemade last. Despite the poor quality of the resole compared to a professional they are the best shoes I've ever used I could climb 2 V grades harder instantly by being able to stand on the tips of my toes on edges instead of smearing.

 

 

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

Okay, I don't understand your post - it seems like you contradict yourself? 

You started off saying footwork is the problem, not shoes - and then followed it by saying how as soon as you got some well fitting shoes your grade flew up. 

My opinion - shoes are massively important and make a huge difference. 

In reply to MischaHY:

I was replying to your post that poor fitting shoes breed poor footwork. My experience shows that I was able to develop good footwork despite poorly fitting shoes, because I was mindful of the handicap I was able to concentrate on practising and ingraining good footwork. Once in properly fitting shoes I already the skills to make an instant 2 grade jump in performance.

Totally agree that well fitting shoes make a huge difference in what it is possible to stand on.

In reply to Jon Greengrass:

I think honestly you're something of a special case. I just don't see the value of training in bad shoes - it's way more efficient to wear well fitting shoes and learn to place your feet accurately, swiftly and to trust those foot placements. You must have excellent footwork to compensate for the poor fit.

Have you ever tried the shoes from Lowa? They're very wide indeed - could be worth a punt! 

https://www.lowa.de/en/products/outdoor/climbing/details.html?Artikel=FALCO... 

In reply to UKC Articles:

Paul, I think it's great that you're psyched enough to write this article, and well done on your progression. However there are a number of things that I think are important to point out.

 

First of all, DON'T CLIMB IN CRAP SHOES AS A FORM OF TRAINING. It will breed crap footwork, or rather it will impede the development of footwork. It will breed a lack of confidence in your feet. STP mentions that he transitioned to good shoes with ease. I don't know who he is exactly, but from his posting history it's obvious that he's climbed at a reasonable standard for decades. His experience is not translatable to a relative novice. Whatever you think about climbing in crap shoes being good training, it is definitely wrong. Please stop.

Next, you say that you had a rigorous training programme and you attribute your success entirely to it. However I just scanned your logbook and can see that you did lots of outdoor climbing during your two years. I can say with near certainty that this time on rock was what got you to 7a, perhaps with a little help from a training programme. Time on the rock will have taught you about movement, and how to climb above bolts without being scared. Amongst a myriad of other skills which are vital and most readily learned outside. I despair of relative novices who construct vastly complex training programmes which in reality will only lead them to injury (you mention a finger injury in your first two years of climbing. This should absolutely not have happened).

It sounds to me that your climbing is being marred by the belief that you are a punter. When I first started reading the article I assumed that you'd been climbing for decades and had finally reached a peak. You're not a punter, you're just like any other keen climber who wants to progress and is starting out (yes, after two years you're still starting out. I've been climbing for a little over 10 years and I feel like I'm still starting out). You've already demonstrated that you've got more ability than I to reach the higher levels of sport climbing because you have constructed an incredibly boring training regimen and you have stuck to it. I have never trained in my life, but I do do as much climbing as I possibly can, and I suppose I stretch the definition of "not training" by targeting the type of climbing I do - i.e. if I want to go sport climbing I'll use the systems board a bit when I'm forced to go to the climbing wall by rain/dark nights.

Hmmm. What else. If all of your mates view 7a as some unreachable paragon of rock climbing excellence then you need to start climbing in a broader pool of people. I see a lot of people who don't improve because their perception of what "hard" is is insufficiently ambitious. This applies especially in trad.

In reply to UKC Articles:

Hi Paul,

A great article, brill to read. Really nice pics and a great one of you on Indian holidays. 

Hope to see you again.

Simon (from the Ruin).

In reply to Will Hunt:

Agree with Will and Misha. It's not possible to learn good footwork (especially on steep ground where you really have to pull with your toes as well as push) until you wear good shoes that fit well.

Once you are already an experienced climber, it is possible to climb a bit in shit shoes, but that's different. 

In reply to UKC Articles:

Please explain details of proposed programme esp Anderson and extensors.

Maybe some links or references?

 

In reply to OP

 

What terrible advice

 

In reply to Skip:

In old money 7a is nudging E5 6a. Not sure what Countdown at Two Tier gets now it’s s clip up but it was E5 when I did it. Jim Grim was E4 I think and now might get 7a. So these grades are not to be brushed aside as easy. Most of these were done onsight as trad and that must make a difference to climbing 7a via red point. The distinction between someone climbing a 7a and someone being a 7a climber is a good one. Dani Andrada and John Long’s idea of building a pyramid of volume routes, adding level upon level speaks to this idea of steady  progression. 

 

In reply to john yates:

Not just ‘nudging’, 7a is a pretty solid E5 6a. A lot of them are more like 6c or 6c+ in terms of the actual climbing. Tend to feel a lot harder though due to having to hang around for gear. 

In reply to UKC Articles:

What is it about 7a  - I mean it just happens to mark a grade level - is there a real threshold of physical or mental ability unique to this grade ?? In other grade systems eg. australia or scandinavian countries does the equivalent grade have the same uniqueness ?

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Thanks, that's interesting. I guess I always just dismissed core exercises (planks, crunches etc) as not being very specific to climbing. Are there any particular exercises you recommend? 

In reply to Si dH:

Thanks, I think I will give it a try. Have you found any particular exercises especially beneficial? 

In reply to UKC Articles:

Something I forgot to mention (sorry if I'm sounding preachy, but from what little I know about training I just think there is a lot of wonky advice in the article that is probably being read as gospel by some who are earnestly trying to improve). The article promotes doing lots of "core" exercises, but for a sub 7a climber, the chances of a weak core being the limiting factor in their climbing are miniscule. Being able to hold body tension and climb nicely on steep ground will help, but is probably not going to be limiting for many 7a's and 6s that you're going to find in the UK, or even abroad. Sinking loads of time into "core" exercises isn't going to stop you climbing hard, but it might be time better spent doing something else. The reason I say "core" in inverted commas is that core strength in climbing is not just having ripped abs. It's about hip flexors and extensors and all that stuff - basically, if you're climbing UK sport, a lot of the time it's about maintaining body tension on polished limestone footholds so that your feet don't pop off. This is as much about technique as it is about "core". If this really was the limiting factor in your climbing, you'd be better off spending some time on a 30/40 degree woody - climbing around on steep ground with poor footholds.

Sorry for preachiness, I'm just trying to dispel some myths (you could just read Dave MacLeod's training book).

In reply to Climber_Bill:

Hi Rich - very much the same for me and everyone I was climbing with in the 90s. At the time we could all do E2 at Swanage and found that we all got to 7a on bolts fairly quickly once the routes were available in the quarries and on Portland. None of us trained specifically at all (if ever), just lots of climbing and keen-ness.

Our boots were pretty sh!t (Sportiva Megas, Boreal Laser/Ace etc).  However, we knew that falling was part of the journey to harder climbing and pushed each other loads. Out of our little group, we were all climbing 7b quickly and some even harder - again, very little training other than occasional wall visits. As others have said - getting out lots with like-minded people and having fun at the crag was the biggest motivator for trying harder.

 

 

In reply to LeeWood:

I think it's just a step in the system, the number change that average climbers can focus on, given that we'll never be chasing 8a. My friends at the top end of the 7s do the same, value 7c+ to 8a more than 7c to 7c+. US climbers seem to have the equivalent focus on 5.12a, which is slightly harder - 7a+. The South African / Australian systems don't give the same steps although way back when in SA, 30 seemed to shine brighter that 29, for no good reason other than the swop from 2 to 3. 

In reply to Cathy:

Interestingly, the UKC logbook stats prove the effects of our 7a grade obsession - more ticks at this grade than either 6c+ or 7a+.  

Poor quality 7a's get more ascents than good quality 6c+'s ?

Having made it to 7a, a plateau ? poor motivation to get further ...

 

In reply to LeeWood:

Well it is a move up from sixes. I believe in America it's 5.11 that is the grade to aspire to (move up from 10s)

Perhaps grading systems that go up in single steps (UK/Australia) don't have the same thing.

In reply to LeeWood:

 

This is particularly prevalent for boulderers who attain 8A but never bother with 8A+. People's minds are sometimes blown when you point out that, to an American, the step from 7C+ to 8A is the pointless progression from V10 to V11. What the Yanks are all chasing is that magical V10 (7C+, which is of course not worth bothering with over here).

In reply to Will Hunt:

Otoh there's that magical phase - that I went through recently - where you  progress from UIAA VIII- through 7a to 5.12a in the space of a couple of years. 

Next stop(s) 5.13a, 8a, X-. 

In reply to LeeWood:

I'm sure you're right. I've just looked and I've climbed nearly four times more 7a's than 6c+'s...... but I don't think you see as many 6c+'s. It would be interesting to know whether (in the UK for example) there are more 7a's than other grades. 

I also notice that I've climbed more 6a's than 6a+'s, more 6b's than 6b+'s, more 6c's than 6c+'s, more 7a's than 7a+'s, more 7b's than 7b+'s, and despite climbing several 7c's and an 8a, I have never climbed a single 7c+. I wonder if this is due to bias, or if there are more routes at the letter grade rather than the plus grade. Is this information available from the logbooks i.e. a total number of climbs at each grade.

In reply to UKC Articles:

I found that time and perseverance / resilience (plus loosing some weight and building a steep home wall) helped me break into the 7's (bouldering) regularly.

 

In reply to TonyB:

For me it's definitely bias! 6c+s often seem just as hard as a 7a, why try one when you can get the glory of the harder tick!

In terms of projecting at your limit - do you want to spend all the time and effort on an 8a that you might fail on or a 7c+ that you might fail on? I know which I prefer.

I think for the + grades at the border of the new number, they have to be particularly outstanding lines to get much attention. At least from weekend warriors like me. If I was systematically ticking my way through a local crag it might be different.

In reply to RockSteady:

I'm definitely susceptible to this thinking - and know others are too. On the other hand I would prefer to believe I would choose a great line at 6c+,  esp true at a zone such as Margalef, rather than an anonymous line at 7a.

Anyway this whole thread has furnished the evidence why I stopped at 7a (some might say I never consolidated !!) - and wonder if there are some 7a+'s out there I could succeed on. I've failed on enough, but perhaps I'm attracted to the wrong style - steep routes with good holds and big dynos. Maybe this is where core strength lets me down. Further - even if I succeed on an individual 7a+, I now have a notion that I would not be a 'real' climber of that grade - as I can't handle what appears to be typical.

One way or another - I now have an impression that a 'real' threshold of strength/power exists in jumping up to 7a+. Anyone else found this ?

In reply to LeeWood:

I don't know. I think the "real threshold" is one higher than what you've previously climbed. And the fewer you've climbed at that grade the bigger the threshold. I think when you have consolidated 7a there is probably not that much difference between the two grades. That being said, I understand that the difference will feel significant at the time. 

 

 

Well obviously. It‘s 5.12a innit?

In reply to Brendan:

Yeah crunches/sit-ups etc. aren't very specific (and they're boring!) Do some pilates exercises like Dead Bugs, V-sits with arm and leg extensions, Supermans for your back. Should be some good videos online. These all have more movement and involve coordinating your limbs too.

In reply to LeeWood:

I didn't find a particular barrier moving 7a to 7a+ or 7a+ to 7b.

I redpointed a 7a after a year or so of outdoor sport climbing and was quite focused on it. I then immediately tried to go to 7a+ which didn't work, and then after a year or so of getting a few more 7as under the belt 7a+ came along after I tried a couple of them with a good redpoint head on and quite a bit more climbing experience.

Similar story with 7b though it helped to have more bouldering experience and power.

Moving above that I have found difficult but I suspect this is more to do with lifestyle and not having as much time to climb as I used to rather than it being a particular barrier. I managed to skip 7b+ and tick a 7c with a bit of focus and fitness after climbing more than I was used to for a while.

My recipe for consistently moving up the grades would be to climb/train three times a week (adding in more when you can), make sure you get out consistently on rock and do lots of easier climbs as well as trying hard on climbs at the grade you want to climb. And do lots of bouldering, focusing on your technique (2/3rd of training time on this). I think after trying that for a couple of years it might be worth adding in the other training methodologies, structured plans, supplementary core exercises, fingerboarding etc.

In reply to Natalie Berry - UKC:

Thanks, I'm definitely going to have to google a few of those! Much appreciated.