UKC

I know we have discussed it at length before, but my latest experience of it is eithere an amazing coincidence, or it really does work.
I have used it in the past and been convinced it worked, but this was amazing.
I was out on the mountain bike a couple of weeks ago, got back home, felt ok bathed and went to bed.
In the morning my knee had swollen like a balloon, I couldn't put weight on it and consequently could hardly walk.
Anti-inflamatories may have eased it a bit, as did linament, but mostly it was enforced rest for the next 10 days. A couple of days ago I found my supply of GS in a drawer so proceeded to take 3x 750mg a day.
Now two days later I can climb, pogo and run again.
Co-incidence, well maybe but until I started taking it I saw no discernable improvement with Ibuprofen etc.
It works for me!

In reply to Al Evans:


Glucosamine & Chondroitin .... worked wonders with my fingers no more swollen sore knuckles after climbing.. i pop a 500mg/100mg tab everyday 60 tabs for £1.75 at wilkos at the moment.

In reply to Al Evans:

I agree, it works for me too. I've had knee problems for many years but not a peep since starting on the glucosamine.

In reply to Al Evans: I've been taking glucosamine and cod liver oil and my knees feel way better than before.
Sam

In reply to sam the man: Do you think it would work for clicky achey ankles?

In reply to Al Evans:

Mrs Ridge says it works for her, but sudden improvement after 2 days? Coincidence IMHO

In reply to Al Evans: I think it worked for me. There was some proper research done into its effects in arthritis sufferers which concluded it did no good.

The reality is we never do one thing in isolation, you were doing at least four all of which might have helped at various points.

Cheers,

FT.

In reply to Ridge: I am taking riskily large doses?

In reply to pwhiteside: Quite possibly-it helps to rebuild cartilidge and connective tissues so if that's your problem then it may help.
Sam

In reply to Al Evans: Worked for me too. No more sore knees coming downhill, walking or biking.

In reply to Fume Troll:

Hmm, I've been taking GS & C for over 10 years. In the early days (and possibly still) science concluded it couldn't be doing any good, cos it should be broken down in the stomach.

However, studies and 'real' use has been shown it to have a beneficial effect. Indeed, I now get it on prescription, and many consultants and docs recommend it.

Steve

This thread was started in the THE CHAT ROOM forum and has now been moved.
Please could you try and post in the correct forum, it makes life easier for both users and moderators.

Down the Pub - A forum for general non-climbing discussions and debate. Discuss politics, society, sport, whatever you feel like on this very popular forum. Please keep the trivial and extra light-hearted stuff in The Chat Room.
Please note - Unsuitable posts in DTP will be either moved to the Chat Room and closed, or just deleted. 'Unsuitable' means chatty posts between mates, trivial jokes and banter, mimic posts or posts with bad language in the starter post or title.

More Forum descriptions - http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/info/forums.html

In reply to Al Evans: its my aim in life to be sponsored by glucosamine sulphate

In reply to SteveSBlake:


the latest studies are not quite so optimistic.

In reply to dissonance:

Well as the origional studies weren't either I'm not suprised, given medicine couldn't work out how/why it works.

No suprise then that the latest ones aren't 'optimistic'.

I don't think users tout it as a cure all, I know folks who've tried it and not noted any difference, but if I'm off it for more than a couple of weeks then I definitely have an increase in discomfort.

Regards,

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake:


the studies dont care about how/why it works (beyond ethical concerns). All they look at is whether it does work in an objective manner (eg trying to remove placebo effect).

I will try to find the link to article but it does state that the newer better controlled studies show worse results than the older ones.

personally i didnt find it worked for me.

In reply to dissonance:

Ta, It'll be intersting to see.

VMT,

Steve

In reply to Al Evans:

Hi Al,
dont think your experience is due to Glucosamine Sulphate. Glucosamine is only supposed to start working "noticeably" after considerable time i.e. a month upwards.
I could be wrong but this is what i have always heard about it.

Cheers
Tim

In reply to SteveSBlake:

this one concentrates more on the chrondronite but contains a bit on glucosamine, it is one of the ugliest websites around but once you get past that very good.

http://www.dcscience.net/improbable.html#chond

In reply to dissonance:

Of course (like chalk) it will work as long as you believe it will.
The trick is to start believing in something cheaper.

In reply to UKC Forums:

I must admit I do find it difficult to differentiate between a subject for 'The Chat' room and 'Down the Pub', can anybody explain why this is not a chat room subject?

In reply to i.munro:

I dont believe in faith healing I'm afraid, so as I do not believe, it cannot possibly work, hence it cannot be that !

In reply to Al Evans: Cos it might come in useful in the future rather than just being a chit chat about it?

In reply to marie: But thats fantastically arrogant of a mod to make that decision, suppose I just want it to be a chat among friends?

In reply to Al Evans: But it's on their forum...

In reply to Al Evans:

Al, I don’t doubt for a moment your experience, I seriously doubt your interpretation.

The suggestion is that Glucosamine helps rebuild cartilage (there are no suggestions that it helps soft tissues such as tendons). The way this might work takes months, if not years, not two days. This is why studies have to be long-term.

You wanted the tablets to work. Placebos can be astonishingly effective; the mind is the strongest pain-killer of all. This is why studies of pain treatments have to have a credible placebo or sham treatment. The cynic in me thinks this might be why many Doctors recommend it…

The nature of aches and pains is they fluctuate between bad, not-so-bad and back to bad again if you do absolutely nothing. This is a gift for all kinds of treatments, as we naturally tend to seek help when things are at their worst so it is then very likely that the pain will improve afterwards. It would have got better whatever people did. Another reason for needing a sham treatment if you want to test a drug properly.

There is a very good reason why ‘science’ is changing it’s mind over Glucosamine: Initial studies were funded by suppliers. The early studies tended to be small, didn’t last for very long (Glucosamine supplying companies are not as rich as drugs companies, so this is no surprise) and patients might have known what tablet they were taking so they could have been biased. More recently, studies have been funded by government bodies and medical charities, they can afford to have more people taking part and go on for longer, so these studies have a better chance of being the true story. The recent studies show no effect compared with taking a placebo tablet.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dop...

This is not to say that Glucosamine might not work in some people, and finding out the kind of people that it might work on is a job for a study with lots of people in it.

My slight concern is that little is known about the side-effects of Glucosamine and we’re all popping the stuff without knowing what it might be doing to our Stomach, Kidneys, Blood-sugar (there are theoretical reasons why it might lead to diabetes, not yet proven either way).

I think it’s a good subject for The Pub, as it’s something that lots of people are interested in and frequently ask about.

In reply to Al Evans:
I've had trouble with my knee(s) over the last few years. I took glucosamine & condroitin as well as cod liver oil. The consultant told me that if i should continue taking it if I believed there was an improvement and it would do no harm but he said that there was no evidence to support its usage.

Last week I had cartelage (sp?) removed from my knee and I'm now hobbling about on crutches. I'm now not convinced that there was any benefit to taking the stuff.

Incidenatlly I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has had the cartilage operation about the recovery period.

In reply to i.munro:


If you get it from Morrisons it's really cheap - a tiny fraction of what you would pay in Boots etc.

I stopped taking it recently (just forgetfulness) and my knees are now really hurting again. Could just be co-incidence (or even the 75km bike ride?!), but I was doing ok while I was remembering to take it.

In reply to HC~F: I'll take the placebo everytime if it works!

In reply to Al Evans: Took it for months for the disc in my back as it's meant to help repair cartlidge but it did nothing whatsoever for me. Damn shame cos I knew of someone else it had helped for disc probs (but then of course after 4-6wks most peoples injured discs have healed anyway!) I think it's the same as alot of supplements, for some it will be helpful, for others not. But I don't think it will be the Glucosamine that has helped you after just 2days. I think it more likely that you would have felt better today anway.

In reply to Al Evans:

equally???

In reply to Al Evans: I imagine this type of supplement works when combined with an appropriate/supplementary diet.

In reply to tonanf: i had awful trouble with the joints in my hands, ( my mum has serious problems which has resulted in surgery ) i took glucosamine in serious doses for three months and the problems have more or les disappeared. Shall continue in smaller dosages as I believe the claim that it rebuild cartilage is true.

In reply to Al Evans: Due to rugby league in my younger days I am sporting two reconstructed shoulders. One of the two started to make a creaking noise like a hinge off an old door. My girlfriend could actually hear it at times. I started with glucosamine sulphate tabs and it stopped within a week. If i run out or forget to take em for a week the grinding noise comes back. So yeah they work unreal for me.

In reply to duncan: But Duncan, I wanted Ibuprofen to work just as much as I wanted GS to work ?

In reply to duncan:


its mind .... did they really give you tenure at KCL?!

In reply to Al Evans:

I am a lapsed disciple of Glucosamine. I did think it helped me through a couple of finger problems a few years back. Indeed at the height of my devotion I named a particularly tweaky new route here in camel-land 'Glucosamine' (working title was 'Glucosamine Geriatric' ... the extension, which I might equip this summer, is pre-named 'Naproxen'). But lately I find it hard to identify cause and effect with injury recovery when I take it. I also find it has unpredictable digestive consequences ... chiefly way too much gas. But if it works for you, that's great.

In reply to Al Evans:

I have used GS on and off for the last fifteen years and my knee joints are definitely much better than they were when I started.

They take about 2 to 3 months of use before the benefits start to show, so I suspect that in your case Al, after only 2 days, there was a strong placebo effect. But what the hell? It worked for you.

I think one of the problems of measuring the effectiveness of medicines in yourelf is that because the body naturally heals itself in many cases, you don't really know if you would have got better anyway regardless of whether you took them or not. But if something works for you, and it causes no serious side effects, why not go for it?

Going back to GS I have been advised by my Doctor's surgery not to go on taking them regularly once the benefits have been gained, but to give it a rest for a few months or more unless the symptoms return, in which case start taking them again. They apparantly work by assisting damaged cartilege tissue to rebuild.

In reply to tobyfk:

No it's 'it's' short for it is, aren't is short for are not,
you dont write arent

In reply to Trangia: I understand the length of time it takes to build cartilage, but I have had it work this quickly on a knee before, I can only assume it also has an anti-inflamatory effect too.

In reply to Al Evans:

Been taking 1x1000mg capsules daily for about 2 years now, and finger joint soreness disappeared after a couple of months. It's not reappeared, but as I've had a long layoff from climbing due to soft tissue damage to the shoulder rotator, it's difficult to tell whether it's really had any effect.

As my family has a history of severe arthritis, (Osteo and rheumatoid) I'll keep taking the capsules and hope for the best. Anything natural that keeps me off painkillers can't be a bad thing.

As to Toby's concerns about undesirable digestive effects, I cant say I've noticed any difference -- but then again Tim would often refuse to share the same vehicle as me on the way to Wonderwall on a Friday morning. I suggest that Kilkenny may have been the real culprit!

PS Tim's thinking of suing the makers of South Park for nicking his catch phrase "Oh My God was that Kilkenny. You Bastard"

In reply to Al Evans: Sorry Toby, just read the original post, you are quite correct, it's not it's being used in contracted form so its is correct in this case as its is being used as a possesive form.

In reply to HC~F:
I need to find a cheaper supplier. I took it for about a month and I did notice that my knees stopped hurting so much. However I am still quite sceptical about it and not sure whether this is just a placebo effect.

In reply to Nao:

Try House of Health www.bs4health.com for good discounts.

In reply to Al Evans:
I believe the recommended dose is 1500/day

In reply to Al Evans:

maybe, maybe not...Samuel Johnson was aware of the problem and wrote in the 1730s that 'It is incident to physicians, I am afraid, beyond all other men, to mistake subsequence for consequence'.

In reply to Nao: On the last thread on this subject, do a search, I poted a really cheap source which I got mine from, It was 365 750mg tablets for about £5, but I've lost the address, the company was true health premier based in Croydon. but the link is on that thread.

In reply to Lord of Starkness:


That's a surprisingly contemporary joke from you Alan! Very good.

In reply to Al Evans:

Indeed. It's much like the Peak's.

In reply to Al Evans:

Every time I have taken these I seem to have developed injuries, I know it sounds stupid and it is probably just a coincidence, but do you think there COULD be a link?

In reply to Fume Troll:


From what I read (some time ago so could be misremembering), it works quite well for some arthritis sufferers if given in very large dose injections for a short period of time then followed up with still relatively high doses given as tablets though the effect was fairly short lived IIRC.
jk

In reply to Al Evans:

Having read this thread, i can only post my experience.

Ive had a bad swollen finger for 9 months. Ever since a trip to Switzerland last year. Ive not been able to bend the finger fuller without pain and after a session with the ammount of swelling, i couldn't physically bend it..

I bought some glucosomine and after 3 days of taking it my finger has pretty much healed.

Can anyone tell me thats just coincidence? Its not like i have not been climbing. I have been battering the finger at Raven Tor, Rubincon and The School, the worst cullprits for bad fingers!

In reply to Adam Lincoln:

yes, of course it could be coincidence (see my point above).

In reply to tobyfk:


It's one of the products of a mis-spent middle age, spending too much time in the company of scaffolders and other rough site types - and teenage kids with an equally off the wall sense of humour -- can't think where they could possibly have got it from!

In reply to stonewall:

Hmmm so 8 months of a bad finger then 2/3 days after tablets it gets better. I should buy the lottery ticket this week, what do you reckon?

In reply to Adam Lincoln:
20p says you dont win the jackpot!

In reply to Al Evans:

It works for me, as if I stop taking it, my knees get worse, and if I start, they get better. But - the research says it's meant to take about a month to kick in, and I agree with this (was a month for me the first time, although about 2-3 weeks subsequent times I started again).

In reply to dissonance:

Read the link, you're right it covers Chondroitin more than Glucosamine, I followed the link to the Cochrane report on that page which seems to support Glucosamine but for one caveat at the end.

So I did a quick search and found this:

http://www.wales.nhs.uk/sites3/Documents/284/Gwent-GlucosamineGuidance%5BMa...

I guess we could do this all day.....

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake:

yup but that caveat is a pretty big one and likely to apply in much the same way as it has for chondroitin - eg the more better run research occurs the less positive results.

In reply to dissonance: How influenced do you think the studies are by what the people undertaking them want them to show?

In reply to dissonance:

Did you look at the link?

Steve