UKC

Today Lucy Creamer has become the first British Woman to climb E8 with her ascent of Slab and Crack E8 6c at Curbar in the Peak District.


Read more at http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Wow, congratulations Lucy! A great ascent for her and hopefully an inspiration to other British female climbers

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

What's the E grade for Lynn Hill's ascent of the Nose of El Cap?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

good work - these amazing committed women are raising the stakes and what I can do versus what I could do get ever further apart - someone stop them!

In reply to luke skywalker:

Don't even try.

Hill's ascents are (free, and free in a day) one of the ascents of all time.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Brilliant stuff. Congratulations Lucy.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Nice one Lu - the paperwork must be good for you!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Even Seb threw in the towel on that one eventually.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Blimey, great effort. Look forward to reading the full report.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
How many other women in Europe or in fact worldwide can climb at that grade ? anyone know ?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Now there's some more worthy news. Hate to be the one to ask but...

when did this go up from E7?

Its E7 in PGE? and in the ukc logbooks

Still a good tick for Lucy whatever the grade.

In reply to luke skywalker:

Isn't the great roof about E9?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

E grades, when pre-practiced are bollox Tom.

Don't even try to to convert.

Try a French grade with R or X next to it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I swa E9 written next to a picture in a mag once...

What sport grade is it?

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:

I saw a pink elephant wearing stilletos once.



No idea...something like 8b+

It's a freakin expedition and requires a whole new skill and experience set to top roping then leading short grit routes, ask Neil Bentley who has climbed E10 and didn't make much progress on El Cap.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
nice line in a news report about a prepracticed e8. i do sometimes wonder whether your post are supposed to be deliberately annoying. no offence or owt.
F8b isn't it? well protected = e9ish? in the middle of a 20(?) odd pitch route with an 8b+ pitch yet to come...

anyway, props to Lucy, nice work.

In reply to abarro81:


When you criticise do me a favour and quote the actual line you are talking about.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Alex does have a fair point about that. Whats the surley Lucy has headponited a (inserts sport grade) on trad gear.

Not an E8.

Same with Dave Macleod with regard to rhapsody- he headponited a 8c+ on trad gear. he didn't climb E11

In reply to abarro81:


See John Arran's thesis on why headpoints should get the prefix H instead of E.

E is for onsighting, not top roping.

H is for Headpoint. Top rope before lead, easier than an onsight.

Do you like being fed a pack of lies?

Any monkey can lead several grades harder if they top rope first. Onsight is the real test of a climber.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


Exactly.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Well done Lucy - one would hope this is fairly inspiring news, it seems the sign of the times attempts to dilute something which - at the end of the day - is an awesome & very bold route and a great ascent...

Whatever people view as news - I'm pretty sure that this is a significant step in (womens?) climbing and should be honoured as such..

Si

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: How hard have you onsighted Mick? How much harder have you head ponited?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

That isn't to anyway belittle dave's efforts. But to say he climbed E11 is farcical.

In reply to Tom Ripley Mountain Guide:


Sorry to POINT it out again, its headPOINT, redPOINT and POINT Five - look carefully and learn or my post will be POINTless.


Chris

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

have done, like it. unlikely to catch on though given it hasn't done so far.


then why did you put this at E8? I don't mind if you want to use E or french or whatever for headpoints, but you're stance is more than a little mixed.

did you just delete my post saying this before? if so why, it wasn't abusive to anyone?

In reply to abarro81:
p.s. again, bon effort on her E8, H?, 5.?, F7? etc.. good stuff.

In reply to abarro81:



ROFL!

Mick you are a shocker, surely you shouldn't be dabbling in questioning the whole E grade / headpoint system whilst at the same time posting official UKC news highlighting E-grades of headpoints, you'll be bringing the UKC team into disrepute

In reply to Simon:

But previously said:

>I can see Johnny loving this, I bet he spat his guiness all over the wall. Why is this news? Its like saying Gordon Brown is buying some toilet roll in preperation for a crap or something.... (sorry Lucy - but it is...)

Mick, your view does come across a bit mixed here. And possibly a bit insulting to people like Lucy.

Personally, French grade with an R or an X if necesary does the job best.

In reply to Fiend:



That's easy, as you get older you learn to wear several hats.

As news editor we still use E grades to assign difficulty to top-rope practiced ascents and will do so until the climbing community changes its tune.

Take that hat off and like many I agree that top rope E grades are used more for publicity and profit than assigning a true difficulty rating.

In reply to GDes:


Not at all. Headpoint ascents are what they are. The person doing them gets a great sense of enjoyment, sometimes fear, and relief. By convention we assign them a number. The higher the number the more attention the climber gets. We report the ascent and the number. Then we discuss - and not just on here.. Get used to it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


so didnt lucy pre practive slab and crack then?lol

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

A smart reply!

Do your several hats include one of these:

http://www.prodigalscribe.com/wp-content/Content/homer%20simpson%20cap/beer...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

And is that number the higher E8 or the lower E7? I'm still confused as to when and who upgraded it.

I'm going to throw the cat among the pigeons here but i have a small suspicion that it may have been onsighted/flashed in the past but i'll check the knowledge before I name names. I could be wrong on this though.

In reply to JR: It was mentioned on one of the other threads that it had been onsighted or flashed.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:



Taking me out of context there Mick!

I was waxing on about someone in the process of a headpoint in that reply as not being news and I missed a trick in the process after.

...not about the eventual ascent...

We agree on this one boss - no drama!


Si

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

OT : jargon/language question.

In what way is pre-practised different to practised?

rgds
lowerSharpnose

ps Practise is a verb, practice is a noun. Like advise (v) and advice (n).

In reply to lowersharpnose: and illiterate is a state of being

In reply to Fiend:

It also includes these:
http://blog.syracuse.com/axeman/2007/07/medium_duncecap.jpg
http://www1.salvationarmy.org.uk/images/uki.www_uki/fft-jester.jpg

So what does Birkett make of your contention that he's a monkey assigning high E grades for publicity and profit?

In reply to Oli:


that was crack and slab, a different route altogether. Which should be E6 6b while we're at it...

In reply to JR:
by - Adam L on - 17:29 Mon
In reply to abarro81:

Pretty sure Ryan had his 'good day' with Slab and Crack, Kaluza Klein and Genocide all on sight this year.

I was sure I wasn't going cross eyed...
I'd heard crack and slab was about that.

In reply to Oli:

ahh right that one... not the first time then... forgot about ry.

In reply to JR:

and flashed by pete whitaker. Good effort.

In reply to JR:
Well done to Lucy for her ascent -- a funny route for grit this one, would suit a crimper. Not sure if it really is E8 but then I also wouldn't mind the tick!

Well done to those who are getting up some of these routes ground-up/onsight/padpoint/whatever. The Peak's worked out (ooh provocative), so it's only natural to come up with something new/different to do.

Not well done for the bumblies above here who still don't understand and drag out the whiney "well, you can't give it an E number if it was prepractised". If Mick had neglected the say 'headpoint' then you could justify the twists in your knickers.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Erm, I may be wrong here but didn't Airlie Anderson do Beginners Mind E8 6c in the Pass somewhere, back in the day?

Andy F

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

So what about Yo-Yo ascents from the earlier days (70's 80's?) are they regraded too?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Well done Lucy, the efforts on Sunday were admirable, esp. getting back on it in the fading light after the fall. Glad you nailed it the next day.

A.-

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

its harder to headpoint an E8 than to headpoint an E7, unless the route boils down to a "trick" move....

it is therefore valid to compare difficulty of headpoint efforts using the E grade sytem assigned for onsight climbing in the UK.

It only becomes meaninless if you neglect to mention it was a headpoint attempt, or start trying to compare peoples onsights of routes like... the bells the bells, with headpoints of Kluza Klien

In reply to Jon Read:

For what its worth, and I've done a fair few E7s and 8s on grit, I always thought this was E8 - so there you have an opinion from someone who's done it. It certainly seems to have had far fewer repeats than EOTA/Gaia.

In reply to Andy Popp:

Thanks Andy, I'll take that tick! It's a bit like an E6 on top of an E7 (assuming the gear holds, which i think Graham Hoey was expressing doubt recently). Thankfully I didn't find out. Still think it's an odd route for grit though: relatively long and involved and always reminded me of slate climbing. Not at all the sprint-on-slopers that others can be.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Brilliant! Inspirational!! Well done!!

...totally brought a smile to my face today.

Well done Lucy!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

First off I think this is a very good news story. Well done, great achievement. Just a question of Mick - if you are reporting in the UKC news that Slab and Crack is E8 6c shouldn't you update the route database as it has the route down as E7 6c?

In reply to andy farnell:

According Airlie's Profile she did Beginners Mind but it says the grade is E7.(see link below)

http://wld.brtest.co.uk/community/sponsees/airlieanderson/

A search on the web suggests both an E7 and an E8 Grade. Am not sure what the concenscus grade for Beginners Mind is now. Perhaps someone can advise.

Reading this thread has stripped me of the will to live, and it's not even 11 o'clock. Quality internet bickering guys.

Fantastic effort Lucy (even though I hope you don't even read this) well done.

In reply to EricpAndrew:

Ooh blimey, can't believe I'm wading into this.

For goodness sake people, the MOST IMPORTANT thing that matters when people climb hard routes is that they are honest about their ascent. The news report states that she headpointed the route. Period.

For those who have the audacity to belittle yesterday's climb read on...

I spotted Lucy on her attempt in fading light on Sunday. It was by far and away the most gripped I've ever been in a climbing situation. She cruised to the first gear - an rp (I believe) and a small cam placed next to each other, let out a scream of jubilation, placed the gear, rested, and then moved on up. She placed the next piece - another rp, went on up, and came off! She came off onto an rp 40 feet above a nasty landing, some mats and some very scared spotters. The gear held.... It f****** held. I assumed she'd shout down to be lowered veeeerrry gently back to the ground, but no, she looked down and said 'I knew it would be that move! [pause] I'll carry on to the top'. Well I don't know about you, but whenever I've fallen off a route onto a small wire (I've thankfully never fallen onto an rp) the first thing that my mind is screaming at me is to get down before it rips. She then calmly went on up and placed another rp some 6 feet higher up. Well that's how it should have happened. It took her 4 trembling attempts to place that wire, each time she was literally willing it to stay, talking to it, swearing at it. Each time it came out as she tugged it. Each time I was visualising her coming off as the wire popped and she overbalanced, falling onto the same rp again, this time it ripping, the next gear ripping too, and having to try to stop one of the world's best climbers from hitting her helmeted head from fifty feet. She pulled herself together and topped out.

I got the call yesterday to go out again. First at 2pm, but it was too hot on the rock, then again at 3.30pm. This time things went smoothly after a minor slip on the very first hold! The gear went in nicely and the moves looked easy (hah!). It was still gripping, but nothing in comparison to the evening before.

Mick, you should know better than to use a phrase like 'any monkey' in a thread which should be congratulating Lucy on a fine, fine ascent. Regardless of your meaning it degraded her achievement.

Lu, you're a legend. Ignore the majority of this thread and please, please carry on what you are doing. Ditto Katherine, Lucinda, Jude et al.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Excellent stuff. Real news at last

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Must be shit at the top-end. You work hard to push the standard and you're achievements get ripped apart by a bunch of bumblies. Mick's probably just pissed off 'cos Lucy's better than him. He did however say that she had climbed an E8, not on-sited one. When she on-sites one what fault will half of you find in that?
There's two simple styles here- headpointed or on-sited. What's the problem as long as ascents are reported honestly? Do marginal nuts or rps suddenly take on more holding power because you knew what size they were and does the ground become softer when you fall off a move you've practiced? How much does pre-practice really affect the seriousness of a route?

In reply to MattH:

well said

In reply to Samuel:
who's been ripping her apart? almost everyone who's posted on this thread has posted congratulations, there have been off-topic bits going on about different grading systems and changes in the grades of this route, but i don't think anybody's been belittling her achievement. can you quote the comments 'ripping her apart'...
like i've said twice already: good work to her. mad props, waddage etc

In reply to Samuel:


If you can check out the gear first - loads!



Chris

In reply to MattH:
come on, back up your statement about people belittling her achievement..
posting something more than the usual excalimations of respect etc is not attempting to degrade her achievement, and people asking about grades on a news item relating to a new grade for british women is hardly unexpected.

In reply to MattH:

Hang on, Matt. I've just read this thread and to imply that the majority posters have been in some way critical is simply bollocks.

This sort of nonsense perpetuates ill feeling where none exists.

Enjoyed your account of the spotting, tho.

Cheers

Neil

In reply to Neil Foster:

The thread had been hijacked and was heading down the normal route whenever somebody does something significant - and let's make no mistake, this was one of the most significant ascents by a British woman ever - of the eternal grade debate. Just thought I'd bring it back on track.

In reply to MattH:

It's no surprise that some people aren't interested in the 'Oh how wonderful' school of posting though. Take it as read.

I don't see either that 'how come that's E8 when it's not in the guidebook at that grade?' is an entirely invalid question when a reporter screams about a first E8. Although the answer may of course be that's in the real guide at E8.

Also presumably the 'oh how inspiring for women everywhere' posters will be inspired to know that much the same standards were achieved 20 years ago by Fliss onsighting E6, and 15 or so by Airlie on Beginner's Mind. Seems a shame not to tell them.

BM was certainly E8 in the guidebook, and frankly I think calling this the first E8 by a British woman is a little disrespectful. Perhaps we could call it the first grit E8.

Did Ryan P really onsight Slab and Crack and not Crack and Slab, by the way, (just asking, it's a common confusion). If it was the former then that's a terrific effort; from the latter I would have thought (from what I've heard) would be easier since the gear's more obvious and so are the moves - if you can do them.

jcm

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Yet ANOTHER UKC thread that has degraded into an argument. And the funniest thing is, there is a mod at the centre of the controversy!

In reply to Simon Lee:

Seb Coe?

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Perhaps the news items should have links to 2 threads: one for those wishing to congratulate the climber, and the second for the eternal grade and ethics debate which so often drowns out the former which is a great shame.

In reply to MattH:

You could make it a sort of poll, couldn't you? The percentage of voters who think it's wonderful.

jcm

In reply to MattH:

Presumably the best way to congratulate the climber is to email them rather than have an on line love in ? meanwhile the debates about grades, ethics, history etc. are what makes a forum so valuable - its the only way any of us (well the majority not operating in exulted circles) pick up on the historical significance of events. Possibly not in this case, but unfortunately events are not always as significant as the headline makes them sound.

In reply to MattH:

Just out of interest Matt, did she pre place the gear in the horizontal slot, or place it on lead? it makes a huge difference to this particular placement, and im under the impression that its not uncommon to pre-place this piece.

no rudeness intended. im just curious. cheers. Si.

In reply to simes303:
Only if you've got a long extender on it. It's certainly easiest to clip from the slot, which is probably the best hold on the route!

Seriously good effort, keep it goin and dont let the nonesense comments on here bring you down

Well done Lu - and cheers Mat for saying most of what I wanted to say!

Just a couple of points. I can't comment on the grade of this route, but as I recall, Beginner's Mind - at E8 - was always a bit of a semi-private joke, the story I was told was that it was given E8 as the pegs were not expected to stay in, but when young Dehurst wanted to do it, old Dewhurst got to it first and banged them in good and proper, making it a bit of a boulder problem on a rope. That's the story I heard. Respect to Airlie for grading it what she thought was the right grade - I think Lucy may have done the same, but this time the grade being higher than that in the guide. Grading routes isn't the exclusive preserve of guidebook writers.

Finally, just my 2p worth on headpointing. While it's fair to say that headpointing an E11 (for example) would not qualify you to say you've 'climbed E11', it would certainly allow you to say you've climbed AN E11. Headpointing at your limit is often harder and certainly scarier than onsighting at your limit simply beacuse you know bloody-well what's coming up!

If any monkey can headpoint E8 - what's stopping everyone?

In reply to Adrian Berry:


Ethics?

<joke!>

In reply to simes303:

No, this gear is extremely simple to place from a virtually no hands rest. It does however make a huge difference if you preplace gear in the vertical thin crack about. I didn't and hence only got one poor piece in (I think Simon Jones did on the second ascent - apologies if I'm wrong - I'd imagine Johnny didn't on FA). The write up seems to make it clear Lucy placed the crucial gear on the lead. I thought the horizontal, though a bomber slot in shape, looked a little fragile in that the 'floor' of it looked like it might crack and flake away.

In reply to GrahamD:
"meanwhile the debates about grades, ethics, history etc. are what makes a forum so valuable"

No it isn't, this is what makes these forums really crap, grades and ethics are just things that people who cant do the route like to talk about as they like to have a good whinge. Really the grades and the ethics surrounding the ascents (as long as the rock isn't damaged) only matter to very few people like those whove actually done the route or are capable/trying it. What makes this forum useful is the information on it. Photos, route databases info on conditions etc. These are what matter to 'proper' climbers intrested in actually doing rather than debating something theyll never acheive, well at least if they continue to be armchair climbers.

im sure Lucy or any climbers dont really care whether or not people congradulate her as im sure climbers of all levels do routes fo themselves rather than some 'punters' on the internet, but well done anyway.

In reply to Adrian Berry:

Well i've been a bit busy recently and also had man flu which keeps coming back. That combined with studying towards an academic qualification for the first time since Uni has meant...

Oh it was a rhetorical question !

MY 2p says well done Lucy. It's great to follow the stories and see someone improving. Gives me a bit more motivation.

In reply to JoeL 90:

>No it isn't, this is what makes these forums really crap, grades and ethics are just things that people who cant do the route like to talk about as they like to have a good whinge.

How would you know? What with the fact you can't climb these grades 'n' all?!

I can recall some past threads where that kind of thing seemed to matter to some people who can climb these grades quite a lot.

jcm

In reply to simes303:

She place all the gear on lead. On the first attempt on Sunday when she placed the top rp she removed it from her harness with her right hand. However it was clipped to the left side of her harness and she reached all the way around, under her chalk bag, 'passing' a spare rp on another extender en route (hope thatmakes sens). She then took four attempts to place the said rp. We were so gripped down on the floor that somebody asked her if she's maybe selected the wrong rp from her harness! She misunderstood the question (understandably as she was likely to be more gripped than we were) and led us to believe that she had indeed selected the wrong one and this was why she was struggling to place it. Turned out she hadn't, and it went in on the fourth attempt. Blimey it was tense - my palms are sweating as I type!

MattH

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I dont think i need to climb these grades in order to say that comment. it simply states that grades and ethics debates make these forums lees good than they could be. also ethics and grades meant that people can talk about routes far beyond them and therefore whinge about various things to do with it.

In reply to JoeL 90:
who's been whinging other than those moaning about about negative comments which haven't actually been posted?

In reply to JoeL 90: Outstanding Lu, and the grit seasons only just started, keep up the good work, its not just lady climbers being inspired.

In reply to abarro81: no one on this thread, perfectly reasonable thing being discussed imho. the post was in reply to a general comment about these forums not this thread. sorry if it was unclear.

Ian, why are you responding to me?

ta
joe

In reply to Anonymous: Seb Coe?


Was I being over-familar ? Perhaps I should have said Dr David Grieve. I dont think he ever managed it in a oner on TR IIRC - and not through want of trying - so it must be tricky.

He also got dropped the full length of the crag being top-roped by his girlfriend of the time - not their only accident.

Be careful out there all you crazee top-ropers.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Big Congrats from Spain Lucy!

Hope most of the stuff posted on here just makes you laugh and ignore the rest..

Sam Rich and all the animals

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Does anyone know if Creamer's ascents are going to be put on a DVD? Or if they were even filmed at all. I would love to see.

Maybe one for Committed Vol. 2?

In reply to MattH:

Eeeek... scary... good to hear the stars can have exactly the same kind of cock-up under pressure that us punters (well - at least this punter) have!

In reply to MattH:

Thanks for the first hand account Matt.

Mick

In reply to Samuel:

Yes full disclosure is useful.

There is a fundamental problem with the reporting of headpointed routes, and this goes for all headpoint ascents.

We are lead to believe that the first ascensionist of a pre-practiced route gives the route an onsight grade (I'm not so sure about this at all - I think it may vary).

So, Johnny Bignumbers, give his latest creation, The Big Groove an onsight grade of E12. Now he hasn't actually done an E12, as that is the hypothetical onsight grade.

All the same, The Big Groove is touted as the first E12. The headlines run at climbing websites and the climbing mags worldwide, The UK's First E12; hardest trad route in the world.

A film is made, E12. Johnny Bignumbers does a slide show tour of the UK and lives off the E12 franchise for many a year - as do the mags, the websites,the climbing journalists, the event organisers, the sponsors, the video makers, the promotors, the movers and shakers.

A few years later, Suzie Shocker headpoints The Big Groove. The headlines run, Suzie Shocker First Woman to Climb E12.

But if, as we are led to believe, headpointed routes, routes where the ascensionists top rope the route before leading, are given a hypothetical onsight grades both Johnny Bignumbers and Suzie Shocker haven't actually climbed an E12.

This is the system we have and I don't blame anyone for using it, but it is flawed.

Adrian Berry said, In fact, so completely different is the headpoint approach that many leading exponents of the art have advocated a different grade system altogether, recognising the huge gulf in difficulty between onsight and headpoint.

Now, I may have got the wrong end of the stick here. But John Arran wrote a wonderful thesis explaining this flaw in our grading system and to counter it suggested that instead of E grades, headpointed routes should be given a H grade, H for Headpoint. So instead of having E12 we now have H12. Only when the H12 has had an onsight does it become E12.

Why hasn't this caught on?

I believe one of the reasons it hasn't caught on because it is not in the interest of those at the top end. E12 is far more impressive than H12 to us punters and it sells, sells, sells.

Hopefully the very boldest of climbers will stick their neck out and challenge this confusion.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I dont think you intend it to be, but this could be taken as a criticism of Dave MacLeod aka Johnny Bignumbers.

If it is acceptable for a climber to make a living out of climbing as a cutting egde exponent they are not to blame for seeking a commercially useful angle whether its E11 or bathanging at Malham even if they personally believe them to be bullshit concepts.

In reply to Simon Lee:

Could be anyone. But I think the point is made. I asked Dave M before he went to Spain. Dave, have you climbed an E11? The same could be asked of any of the top headpointers; Birkett, Dawes, Gresham, Arran, Berry, Nixon etc



As I said: I blame no-one for using the system that has evolved. But apart from John Arran, no-one has actually come out publically and questioned it.

Getting labelled with high E numbers is a badge of honour and part of the career path of top climbers. If you want the top E number, you headpoint.

Meanwhile, worthy climbers (many who headpoint as well) who onsight E6, E7 and in rare cases E8 get ignored (the good Dr. Crippen is working on this for UKClimbing.com at least.. http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=270537)

I think a very clear distinction needs to be made; at the moment it is most certainly not, even though the term 'headpoint' is tagged on that is forgotten and the high hypothetical E number remains.

In reply to Chris F:
>

I know. Just incredible... Mind you, you have to take your hat off to some of the protagonists? After all, it can't be easy to post on an internet forum from THAT far up your own arse?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Mick, although I agree with you in regard to E/H grading, I think you should start another thread on this issue as it deserves to be discussed away from this thread.

In reply to Clauso: Must be tough to reach the keyboard

Well done that girl! Couldn't even imagine pulling as hard as you do...

In reply to Norrie Muir:

I'll second that - it should be in a new theread - i wondered why you hadn't when you did the jonny/suzie post

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

when we've all gone out and done it can we then have an informed bickering session, In the meantime is it too hard just to say good effort?

In reply to es:

Sorry, I never made any comment/post on 'jonny/suzie'.

In reply to es:

We may have an article on the subject. Just thought I'd get it off my chest so people can see where I'm coming from.

As regards, my "monkey" comment. Maybe a tad over the top and I think it important to remember that not all headpoint experiences are the same.

Neil Foster has used the term headpoint "automaton"

Birkett has said the most of his headpoints have felt easy. He gives himself 3 days on a route before the "headpoint".

However on one route, Return of The King I think, he was ill-prepared, filming pressure I believe, and on the headpoint found himself out of the 'zone" .

Time practicing a route can influence the the headpoint experience. There are other factors as well, which have been mentioned before, remoteness, proximity of a 'rescue team' - usually friends of even film crew with rope, loose holds etc

That figure assigned is only part of the story.

In reply to JoeL 90:


Feel free to leave the forums then.

This is a climbing discussion forum. If you don't like climbing discussion it is probably not the place for you.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Here's something to consider:

First ascentionists who headpoint new routes at the highest level and give them - as they do - hypothetical onsight grades e.g. E10, are doing a good thing because they are providing potential onsighters with useful information about the difficulty of onsighting the route AND providing a pointer and subtle encouragment for onsight ascents (obviously in the distant future for an E10). They are highlighting the onsight potential by giving it a grade that is part of the onsight-based grading continuum.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Hopefully the good Dr. Ryan will be doing his bit by focusing on highlighting stylistically progressive ascents in the UKC news...

In reply to Fiend:

The problem is I have to focus on many things. But yes this has a high priority.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I could make you a "Climbing Style Promoter" hat if you like??

(I think it would be good with a bike horn attachment or something...)

In reply to Fiend, and everyone else:


And here's something else to consider; 'first ascensionists' who headpoint, sorry top rope routes are doing little more than bringing the climb down to their level, in just the same way that redpointing nueters 'sport climbs'.

It's understandable that subsequent generations should want to carve out their space in history, but headpointing, sorry - top roping new routes (and subsequent such ascents ascents) is the 'murder of the impossible' in pursuit of personal glory/gain/sponsorhip/position etc.

I doubt in practical termes that we, or the leading lights could ever climb routes without some prior knowledge, be it guidebooks, local knowledge, inspection and so on, but that's quite different from prepractice. The 'real deal' is climbing the route/line without prepractise and that is the style that should be applauded.

In one of these debates someone suggested we were precious of our 'little cliffs'. Bloody right, we should be! Our crags are small and the rock and remaining lines should be given a chance to win. And, when they are climbed in good style that's what we should acknowledge and praise.


Sadly I suspect things won't change for the better, but you have to ask what has driven things and our heroes/heroines down this route - but then we probably know the answer don't we?

Finally, I like the idea of the hat for Mick, I'll happily contribute to the cost of the wool.

Regards,

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake:

PMSL. Redpointing is the integral part of Sport climbing. You can't claim a sport route unless you've redpointed it. So your saying Ste Mac 'neutered' Overshadow because he redpointed it? That just show's how little you know. Punter.

Andy F

In reply to andy farnell: Actually, I've just looked at Steve Blakes profile and he's not a punter, which makes his comments about sport climbing all the more crazy....

Andy F

In reply to SteveSBlake: When exactly was this golden era of climbing when new climbs were not pre-practised ?

Virtually all of the modern crop of climbs were ascended in this way ...

but so were those of the Dawes generation

and so were the Fawsett / Livsey generation

and so were the Allen / Bancroft generation

and so were the Brown / Willans generation



....Abraham brothers ... blah blah blah ....

In reply to andy farnell: Looks like he's nuetered a boulder problem or 2

In reply to SteveSBlake:

Look I am definitely interested in good climbing style and stylistic improvements but I think that's a pretty naive post.

First ascents have been done with pre-practise for many years and that is the status quo for first ascents. So many of the great and inspiring lines would not have been done - basically almost anything above E6. Okay so we could leave them for the next generations and in a 1000 years time someone might have onsighted the FA of Equilibrium or Rhapsody but that isn't the way it's happened.

FAs are very different from subsequent ascents with all the information you listed and I think it's fair that different rules apply.


Well there is so much of that left to do. The rocks in a way have won because they have been too tough for onsight FAs in our generation. But there is so much potential left for stylistic improvements - onsights of most of the E7s....all the E8s....all the E9s....the E10s and E11....

The FAs might have been done of these things but there are many many notable and newsworthy ascents to do as style improves.

In reply to David Peters:

That's bollocks,

Steve

In reply to andy farnell:

What?

Personall I'd rather onsight a sport route rather than redpoint it (in fact I've never redpointed a sport route, clearly I am a punter!)

Yours unworthily,

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake: Just imagine what you might have achieved had you tried repointing. It's not dissimilar to working a boulder problem.

Andy F

In reply to SteveSBlake:

To be fair to Andy, although the punter call was unnecessary, he's right.

To say that redpointing a sport route is neutering it is about as wrong a statement as anyone could make.

In reply to seagull:


Which is why I made the comment straight after... Your right though, the neutering comment was a bit daft.

Andy F

In reply to SteveSBlake:
Well I hope you're pleased with yourself, getting Andy so worked up that he used the P word in a public forum.

In reply to JoeL 90:

You can use the forum just for idol worship if you want (presumably because someone has told you to idolise). Personally I want to see the context put round achievement rather than headline hype.

You might be happy with red top headlines, I like to see the analysis.

In reply to Fiend: If you read the post properly youll realise that i do infact like discussing climbing. but am much more intrested in informative threads which will help my climbing such as hearing from people with information on scottish winter conditions or getting beta on longer routes in the alps or other countries. also intrested in hearing peoples advice on various techniques to do with rope work etc. I simply dont beleive i have any right to discuss the ethics of an ascent of a route (aslong as it doesn't damage rock/turf) which is well beyond me and nothing to do with me. i also find threads abot the grades of routes way above their ability boring especially if its negative like suggesting a downgrade.

Although if the grading system as a whole is being discussed like on this thread, it obviously affects everyone who climbs. Yose decimal/French with an aditional letter G, PG, R, R/X X for danger would be good for all climbs i think, way more informative.

ta
Joe

In reply to SteveSBlake:
you should warn sharma before he goes and makes a tit out of himself by neutering his next project...

In reply to abarro81:

lol

In reply to abarro81:


I think you can watch the falls on his Clark Mountain project here:

http://www.apple.com/quicktime/guide/hd/kinglines.html

In reply to GrahamD:

as i said in my post i use it to gain information about climbing and beta on what routes i want to do. The news articles dont really intrest me its nice to know other are going well and enjoying such a great sport. i dont really see your point why do you care how significant all this is, cant you just be happy shes done a new route, or sad or whatever it makes you feel and move on?
ta
Joe

In reply to andy farnell:

I've just reread what I posted, 'nuetering' as a poor choice, but boy did it get a response. Inappropriate as all sports climbs are already nuetered by the bolts (I jest )

I accept it is a poor comparison and misplaced in a discussion such as we are having.

As to being a punter, hey I can live with that, and if anyone wants to come up here and punter with me for a weekend, then I'd be happy to oblige!



Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake:

I'd love to go and punter in Northumberland, but I'm too busy puntering at Malham.

Andy F

In reply to Fiend:

Naive only if I thought it would actually influence anuone!

We may disagree, perhaps not that much. In any event the offer of the wool still stands.

Steve

In reply to andy farnell:



You be careful there!

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake:

Which bit ?

In reply to David Peters:

David,

This is far from a definitive response, but I am pretty certain that while top roping new routes has occurred since ropes were long enough, it was in at least two of your eras; B/W, L/F, (and before) the exception, not the norm.

I'd be interested to see a defininve list of how many routes in the B/A era were worked.......

So I'd say that 'headpointing' F/As is a practice that took hold and became 'accepted' in the 90's.

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake:

Indeed. The 1890s.

Stonnis Crack, Innominate Crack?

jcm

In reply to SteveSBlake: Although routes were put up 'onsight' in all of these era's most of the routes that were considered 'cutting edge' at their time were prepractised in some way.

There was a lot of scullduggery in all of these times and the full extent of the first ascent circumstances were rarely fully revealed.

These days (most) people are fairly open about their style of ascent because a greater number of practices (sic) are tolerated or considered the norm but climbing IS a competeartive sport and always has been and top climbers will do what is necessary to get that first ascent


ooooh, the stories I could tell .... (I'm sure that you know a few yourself)

In reply to SteveSBlake:

Yeah cos in the 70's and 80's all first ascents were so ethically pure weren't they? Man you're just digging yourself a bigger hole.

In reply to SteveSBlake: I hear that Asafa Powell has neutered the 100m wold record in to submission, my spys have told me that contary to popular belief he did not just haul his fat ass of the sofa in a ten minute break from eating fries and watching Jerry springer but, get this, the cheating b4st4rd actually did some training and then to top it off he 'practiced' the 100m and then went and murdered the impossible.

Dont get me started on Lance Armstrong ....

In reply to SteveSBlake:

How many times did Dougal Haston fall off The Bat?

In reply to tony:

How many pegs/wedges did he also use?

Does all the Beta on this thread proclude me from the onsight. I now know whhich gear to take and on which side of the harness to put it. Perhaps a Spoiler caption should apply.

In reply to tony:

I don't know, though I could find out, but it's not really relevant. I do believe however, that he didn't top rope it, or am I in the wrong?

Steve

In reply to seagull:

For sure some FA weren't, virtually all were inspected on absiel. But the idea that everyone was top roping routes prior to FAs is wrong.

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake:

You miss the point. No, he didn't top rope it. He yo-yo'ed it, so he fell numerous times, repeating (and hence practising and rehearsing many of the the moves. He certainly didn't do it clean.

In reply to tony:

In reply to tony:

I know, but at least he tried to on sight it and when he completed his 'flawed' ascent he didn't hide it as Dave suggests everybody routinely did.

I accept that many flawed ascents, using aid, rest points or yo yoing took place, but would argue that when those shennanigans took place they were seen as flawed ascents, and I don't recollect them being the norm.

I'm off to do more important stuff now, supper has to be cooked.

Best,

Steve

In reply to SteveSBlake:
>But the idea that everyone was top roping routes prior to FAs is wrong.


I'm not saying that I'm saying that LOTS of first ascents from these supposed great days of pure ethics were yo-yoed or worse. As an example, the practise of lowering back down to a rest after a fall (rather than the ground) and then climbing to the top was used by some of the most illustrious characters in 70's/80's climbing. These routes weren't even climbed in anything that would be classed as "good style" now. In fact they wouldn't even be classed as ascents.

Is headpointing worse? No. Of course it's not. The ultimate in good style is the onsight flash but at least now we don't (generally) get people claiming routes when all they've done is dog them.

You're looking back with rose tinted spectacles if you think that those kind of practises were universally frowned upon and weren't in widespread use by many at the top end of new routing.

In reply to seagull: Fawcett, Zoolook, say no more.

Andy F

In reply to seagull & lots more:

Steve's view is possibly distorted by the fact that when he was doing his FA's in Northumberland he was in competition with Bob & Tommy Smith, not known for their top roping ethic, although some routes were practiced by trying a move and jumping off. Sort of top roping without a rope.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Am I the only person that finds this sort of thread a total yawn?

The person concerned may be (is) a very good climber but why should this interest anyone except herself?

Is modesty no longer fashionable?

In reply to Bruce Hooker: This thread is not a total yawn because this is possibly the finest ever ascent by a British female climber.

You are no longer fashionable - the majority of self respecting British intellectuals stopped supporting Communism in the 1950s.

In reply to John2:



I have never been fashionable. This isn't the first groupie fest about this person though... if that's what turns you on, I suppose.

I left the communist party in the early 80s, by the way, but that dosen't prevent me from having an open mind on the historical importance of the movement. It wasn't exactly fashionable with most people, especially employers, at the time anyway

In reply to SteveSBlake:


Now form an orderly queue!

< Looks round. No bugger there >

Well, erm, Steve, looks like we all have prior engagements and just can't fit a visit to the County into our, um, already overcrowded schedules. Pity really. There might have been a brisk market in bouldering mats underneath the Poseidon Adventure!

Mick (sticks 'Little Tryfan' into the Satnav, just to be on the safe side. Vroom! Vroom!!)

In reply to John2:


And the interesting bit is exploring the "possibly".

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Big thread here. Can someone summaries it in one sentence so I don't have to read it all

In reply to Ackbar:

Some differences of opinion.

In reply to Ackbar:


...some bird climbs hard.

...lots of bored people discuss it.

In reply to JamieAyres:

...and no dissing her achievement or questions of newsworthyness this time?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

In reply to Anonymous:
My goodness, you men on this thread are worse than a group of bickering women! Notice how no ladies have posted anything here? I thought I should change that... first of all I'm glad that everyone agrees that Lucy's ascent is a great achievement. Lucy is a huge inspiration to me and I admire her greatly for what she does!

What pisses me off is that this debate is so daft and pointless (so I'm getting involved)! And I don't care what people are trying to say, it does sort of put a damper on her achievements. I'd like to throw another issue into this rubbish debate to give you E8 climbing Grade Gurus something to talk about: Lucy, like many of us climbing ladies (and some unfortunate men), is a short arse. And, you know what? No grade discussion seems to ever take that into consideration. Maybe she actually climed a 7a not a 6c (be it E7 or E8) because for her the move is harder than for some of you lanky men? If she climbed a reachy 8a I bet noone would bang on about how it's actually 8a+ for her? Get my drift? Why all this down grading frenzy????

In reply to LJS:

Lots of women have posted on this thread.

jcm

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Girl did good ..nothing more to say really

In reply to LJS: Bloody hell, short people aren't disadvantaged when climbing in fact most of the best climbers in the world are short. Its no coincidence that Lucy Creamer, Lynn Hill and Katie Brown are all short, its becasue you have less weight to carry, better body tension and balance. Although having said this its not an excuse for tall people to use. as there are many tall climbers who are very good. people should stop moaning about height and just fcking train more ore work out different ways of doing things - from the report on the climb it seems Lucy did this to great effect.

Also guidebooks are always mentioning different tech grades for the short on reachy routes, but the tall dont get different grades for steep routes.
im average height btw so am neutral on which height is best to be. I do have short arms tho.

In reply to JoeL 90: I do have short arms tho.

..which of course gives you a mechanical advantage in locking off

In reply to LJS:


Actually I was the first to reply on the thread and last time I checked I was still a woman! I've found the discussion on the thread quite interesting though I hadn't commented as I have no experience of headpointing, not climbing at the level that would necessitate it.


Unless I've missed something I thought the grade debate on the thread has been about the difference between headpointing and onsighting, not disparaging Creamer's ascent. I don't think anyone's disputing that it was a great achievement and the style in which she did it is acceptable for something at that grade. But it's undeniable that it's a style that could be improved upon and, by my understanding of the UK trad grading system, the route won't really be experienced as an E8 until someone onsights it.


Bollocks. There has been endless discussion on the relative advantages and disadvantages of height to climbers. See http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=265964&v=1#3926069 and http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=269596 for a few that have been on the forum in the last 6 weeks. Height is just another unchangeable physiological factor, like having fat fingers or short arms, and you find work arounds and improve as a climber to compensate. Or you don't, and you walk away from certain routes knowing that you did your best with no shame.

In reply to Simon Lee:


But of course must make laybacking quite hard work.

In reply to climbingpixie:

Besides, the crux on this route is bunched up.

In reply to climbingpixie:

Stop moaning about it all and either go climb it yourself or read Lucy's blog at http://www.lucycreamer.com/blog.php

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: I know this has been done to death but AAAARGHHH it makes me so mad.

This IS news. We ALL KNOW the difference between headpoint and onsight ascents. Why introduce another grading scale just to keep a'holes like Mr Ryan from winging on about it.

I'm a punter. I know I'm a punter. But put me on a top rope on a VS and I can still tell its about VS, even though it doesn't feel the same as leading it.

First ascents, provided they are reported honestly (which this one is - read lucy's blog) can be done in any style as far as I'm concerned. But please, PLEASE suggest (that's SUGGEST) an onsight grade in the standard UK grading scale to give those who come afterwards an idea how hard its gonna be.

Oh and by the way Mr Mick-I'm so effing smart cos I can troll on me own website-Ryan how tall are you? Cos unless you are 5'2" I suggest yer keep yer bleeding mouth shut.

Lucy Creamer is a foot shorter than I am. how she ever gets off the ground on anything harder than HVS is a mystery to me...maybe there should be a new grading system for people of below average height (and another for poeple of above average armchair smugness???).

In reply to Andy Popp:

In that case my memory must be deceiving me. Again! Cheers. Si.