UKC

After the gear stolen from Curbar thread I looked in the lost&found forum. Here are some examples of what I saw – with some comments. I was amazed at the general attitude that everything should come back to its owner regardless.

1. “A cam was accidently left behind on Saturday possibly at a belay. It was a purple size three. I can be more specific about its location if you think you may have it. My friend xxx would be very grateful for its return and will pay all costs.”

ME - Obviously lost by being left behind – not abandoned.

2. “ive lost a size 4 DMM nut not sure if it could be on top pitch of black ice in long quarry point slabs or weather it could be around the start or on the first pitch of incubus on sanctuary wall, cheers xxxx”

ME - If it’s been left in the route then surely it’s abandoned, if it’s at the top or bottom lying around or in a belay then it’s been forgotten – not abandoned.

3. “Hiya, We managed to get a bit of gear stuck on Nightmare (Seawalls, Avon Gorge). A shiny DMM Wallnut size 4. If you manage to retrieve it, do let me know! Kind regards,”

ME - You have got to be joking – this is clearly abandoned.

4. “lost cam on 2nd pitch of valkyrie, lower tier at the roaches. Just after the undercut traverse from the flake. Black diamond camalot C4 and blue quickdrawer. Would greatly appreciate getting it back!! After the massive epic of today on the route!!”

ME - Again, surely this has been abandoned. Why didn’t you ab down and get it. Other climbers are not your gear retrieval backup mechanism. If there were extenuating circumstances then tell us – maybe “couldn’t ab for it because I then got a migraine”.

5. “Unfortunately, due to the slimey nature of troutdale pinnacle on sunday, we had to do a tactical retreat from the belay at the end of the 1st pitch. If anyone else does this, we would very much appreciate it's return. Please PM me. Thanks in advance.”

ME – you even tell us it’s abandoned and expect to get it back!!! On a multi-pitch, carry an old sling and crab that you don’t care losing exactly for this purpose – hint carrying such a sling will guarantee that you never have to use it – forget it just the once and you’ll need it

6. “Hi, I think I may have left a Wildcountry Rock 10 at the base of Via Media, Stanage Popular on Sunday. It's one of the older variety, so not coloured. If anyone picks it up I'd be really grateful if they could get in touch.”

ME – sounds like this was forgotten – not abandoned.

7. “We were up in the peaks last weekend and somebody took one of the bouldering mats off for a play and somehow returned without it. It occurred on sunday and the mat is a bright yellow alpkit model. Would appreciate any info, if anyone has found or seen it around. Cheers.”

ME – not abandoned but how do you lose/forget a bright yellow thing that’s a couple meters long!!!

8. “After a 20 minute battle with a nutkey I gave up and left a gold hex on the crux of Rake End Wall. If you remove this sword from the stone you can damn well keep it!”

ME – at last, someone who understands that they’ve abandoned something and it’s fair game for anyone who gets it out.

9. “Hi, all, one of my cams got jammed in half way up suicide wall, i would greatly appreciate it, if you would return it <address> if you somehow manage to get it free. £10 to anyone who does ”

ME – again clearly abandoned but the OP here is a lucky person because somebody actually went and got it out for him – there are still nice people about

I was also amazed at the things that people manage to lose – don’t these people check that they’ve got everything? I despair.

In reply to Michael Hood:

I think you have lost a sense of proportion writing all that out!

I can send it back if you want.

In reply to Michael Hood:

I lost one of my fairly new rock shoes the other day but cant post up about it as its a new crag that nobody else knows about and was probably picked up by dog walkers and lobbed in the bin

In reply to Michael Hood:

If you found any of those items and kept it, it'd be theft. i.e. the criminal offence of theft. It's still the owners property.

And you despair?

In reply to Michael Hood:

That's nothing; I left my harp in Sam Plank's Disco.

In reply to Michael Hood:

Go and have a quiet read and a cup of tea.

It's your reaction which is troubling you, not the threads themselves.

A sense of calm can be your's...

(Seriously)

()

In reply to Michael Hood: I blame climbing walls and the BMC.

In reply to JDal:
lost/abandoned/forgotten.....it's now so easy to *try* & help people, why shouldn't you? The stuff's not yours...if you dropped a wallet in the street, or left it on a bar, on the bus....
I can understand cragswag in 'pre-internet days' but not now. If someone wants to pay £5 to get back a £6 nut, then fair enough.

In reply to JDal: Er no it wouldn't be theft - for instance the sling on Troutdale Pinnacle is abandoned. Therefore it would not be theft to take it and keep it.

Of course in a perfect world even abandoned gear would get returned as in my last example.

In reply to Michael Hood:
though i did wonder about the 'lost fleece hat' post!

In reply to Bulls Crack: There's no way I'd write all that out - cut & paste. I may well have lost a sense of proprtion though.

In reply to Clauso:

no you didn't. it was in the thunderbox and you knows it

In reply to Bulls Crack:


Nah, he abandoned it...

In reply to Michael Hood:

"3. “Hiya, We managed to get a bit of gear stuck on Nightmare (Seawalls, Avon Gorge). A shiny DMM Wallnut size 4. If you manage to retrieve it, do let me know! Kind regards,”

ME - You have got to be joking – this is clearly abandoned."

Update, luckily he returned with a chisel, lump hammer and cordless drill.
Now not abandoned

In reply to Michael H

I am sure the person who returned this gear to it's owner feels better about his self than anyone keeping any crag swag or otherwise found or abandoned gear. A shinning example for us all to follow.

In reply to Phill Mitch:


To solve this problem, we should all solo.

If anyone finds my (accidently abandoned) body under five finger exercise, please return to my soul. Ask St. Peter for the postal address...

Its nice to return stuff thats not yours, climbers may be skin flints and smelly geeks, but they are mostly honest folk.

In reply to Michael Hood:

ME - obviously you have to much spare time.

In reply to Michael Hood:

It would be theft. The owner even asked for it back. What is the legal definition of "abandoned" you are alluding to? For example, suppose I have to retreat from Troutdale Pinnacle, for whatever reason, and leave a sling and crab in place. You're suggesting that you are entitled to turn up and nick it? And when I ask for it back on a forum you just shout "finders keepers"?

Jeez. I despair.

According to Citizens Advice", if you find something you may keep it "If you have taken reasonable steps to find the owner of the goods, for example, left them to be claimed at a police station for a reasonable length of time"

In reply to Michael Hood:

I'm on your side mostly...

I'll always remove any gear that I can from a route unless it is obviously left (e.g. a top rope set up on a remote Lake District crag or a fully pre protected route with a green leader chalking up below). I prefer my crags without litter thanks!

Then, however, I'll make the effort to ask around the crag to see if anyone has left anything and check the posts on here. I don't ever use the gear I find and as such I have a moderate selection of rotting gear awaiting collection.

Does this make me a thief? Or should I leave unclaimed gear lying around, making me a litterer?

In reply to JDal:

Maybe I should just dump it all at my local nick...not sure how they would view a fury sling being left with them.

In reply to JDal:

Really? Are you sure about that? I'm not.
Wikipedia (all knowing) would suggest otherwise:

"Property is generally deemed to have been abandoned if it is found in a place where the true owner likely intended to leave it, but is in such a condition that it is apparent that he or she has no intention of returning to claim it."

"Abandoned property generally becomes the property of whoever should find it and take possession of it first"

In reply to JDal: From Wikipedia - not necessarily the best source but whatever - If the owner has renounced all property rights in the object, then the property is abandoned.

Now I would assert that the owner on Troutdale Pinnacle has abandoned the sling because he/she has no intention of going back themselves to retrieve the sling. You I suppose would argue that the owner asking for it back means they have not renounced their property rights.

So, lets say no one picks it up and I go back in 2 weeks, is it then abandoned. In 4 weeks, 2 months, when?

If the owner had said, I'm going back next Sunday to retrieve it but if you pick it up before then, I'd like it back - then I would agree that it is not abandoned.

Apart from all the legal niceties, it would clearly be a nicer world if we all attempted to return gear even when it has been clearly abandoned.

In reply to Michael Hood: You have far too much time on your hands.

In reply to Michael Hood: I agree with the op on this. A sense of perspective is needed re lost gear.

We all lose a wire or hex etc occasionally and is it really fair to expect someone to go to massive lengths to return it? If you find a tenner how many of us would seriously hand it to the police or ask 50 people at stanage if it was theirs?
I'm sure most people would make a big effort to return a camera or rucksack full of gear left in a carpark but a wire left in a cliff somewhere as they could not climb it/it was stuck/I forgot it.

Sometimes its just tough! And losing a bouldering mat... Really?

In reply to Michael Hood:
Lost, abandoned or forgotten - doesn't really matter to me. If I don't know the history of the gear it is of limited use to me, so I'd rather re- unite it with it's owner.

Plus, what goes around comes around, and I'd like to thank the two people who have returned jackets to me via this forum

In reply to Michael Hood:

Good effort!

For my part, I was somewhat chastened to have to retreat off a classic route at White Ghylls last year. Wet rock, lack of balls. I left a quite nice and relatively new sling (a long one) and an old crab to escape. I left it in full knowledge someone would reap the benefit of my retreat. Funnily someone even posted on here about finding it a few weeks later. It was abandoned and I was totally happy to a) escape safely and b) for the finder to keep it.

You have to accept these things as part and parcel of climbing. Stuck nuts being asked for, what a laugh.

That's all totally different to the 'other' post by Martin however.

In reply to Michael Hood:

Agree with all of those. Finally some sense....with hints of insanity!

In reply to Michael Hood:

A bit of work and you could have the Lost (I'm losing my mind over lost perspective with lost gear) rap. A quality collection of things you wouldn't quite trust; like a decades worth of recovered gear from Wildcat.

In reply to Mike Nolan:

Just de-strssing after work.

In reply to Michael Hood:

Every time these threads go up it just proves further to be how UKC is full of total nobbers.

On a related note, I was at Bamford when some coppers from Surrey too a lob near Wrinkled Wall. After spending 1 minute with a nut key on the nut (low down on the route, they gave up and declared it abandoned. I spend 10 seconds with a nut key and retrieved it and guess what, I GAVE IT BACK!

They then declared it only useful for abseiling off because it took a 6ft lob!!!

In reply to Removed User: I've been climbing for thirty years and have found more than my fair share of crag swag and certainly in the pre-internet days it was impossible to trace the previous owner. Now if I find anything I have a look on here but have never found the original owner. Given excessive postal charges quite often its a false economy to re-claim a lost / abandoned nut, sling or Krab.

In reply to Michael Hood:

I abandoned a size 4 nut and a carabiner on the Aiguille d' Perseverance in the summer (forced retreat) and a few days later bumped into mountain guide, Andy Perkins. It came up in conversation that we'd backed off it, and he suggested he was planning to take clients up it later that week and joked that he'd retrieve it for us.

A few weeks later the abandoned kit arrived in the post - sent airmail from Chamonix.

Perhaps a few more of us could adopt this generous, helpful attitude?

In reply to Removed User:

Aye, like late on a Wed evening when a laywer mate of mine led a route on Peel Crag,the second couldn't follow and had to leave a cam, which the following party clipped. It then walked deep into it's parallel crack and was going to need a long stick to retrieve it. Solicitor came back next morning to find the cam gone. He called it theft, but then he didn't swear much.

In reply to Michael Hood: What's all tyhis "nicer world if things were returned" bollocks? Crag swag is crag swag, nice if you find it, annoying if you lose it, but that's life and things even out over the years.
Can't believe there are so called climbers on here talking about the law. Any true cragsman instinctively knows the etiquette with lost or stuck gear, when to try adn return it and when to add it to their rack. The rest of you are just accountants that climb.

In reply to Allan McDonald (Gwydyr MC):

while I wouldn't try and claim back an abandoned nut or single krab (if I can't get it out and someone puts the effort in to doing so then fair game to them really), potal charges for a nut would be a 1st class stamp. Postage for a crab would be less than £1.
Be honest rather than falsly justifying it.

In reply to Scarab9:

Even a size 3 cam is only £2.50 to post back (I've posted a fair bit of gear over the last year). It's not exactly bank-breaking.

In reply to Michael Hood:
absolutely bloody right in my view. the great majority of this 'lost' gear is basically abandoned in the route because the climbers couldn't be arsed/weren't competent to recover it. Frankly, these people compund their littering of the crag with littering of the forums making completely unreasonable requests for some saint to save them from their own laziness/incompetence. Their only value is in making me laugh at posts like Michaels

A couple of months ago on Heidleburg creature at Boulder Ruckle, swanage I came across a complete route of preplaced wires, over the last 30 meters of the route. Probably 1 1/2 sets of wires recovered but absolutely no quickdraws. None of them were difficult to extract, and most just lifted out. There was no-one about so I couldn't return their gear (after laughing in their faces at their stupidity) but if it was your gear please get in touch so I can laugh at you before returning your gear! Is it just me or is it bloody funny that some people are willing to abseil down to sea cliffs where the ONLY way out is climbing back up the rock, without even the basic understanding of climbing. I mean, its not very advanced knowledge to understand that the second should remove the wires as well as the quickdraw! and that the lead should reclaim his gear from the second at the top of the route. And frankly, if they did notice the absence of so many wires after toping out why the fck did they think it was alright to go home and buy another set!

Please please get in touch so I can return your gear. Once I've stopped laughing at you I'll take you back and teach you how to climb safely on sea cliffs.

In reply to Michael Hood:

Stop being an @rse! If you want to say you lost/abandoned gear on route, then that it up to you, if you find it and dont want to return it, that is also up to you. Get over yourself!

In reply to staceyjg:

are you serious! is it alright if I stuff my chocolate bar wrappers behind the chock stone on 'baboon' because I just can't be arsed to tidy up my stuff and take it home? if one thinks its easier to go buy new gear than to expend time and effort on recovering it, then one is a tw*t!

In reply to DJonsight:

i concurr.

you lose some you gain some.

In reply to DJonsight:

Tru dat

I'm poor and I don't whinge when I lose stuff. It's part and parcel of the game.

In reply to Michael Hood:

I'm not sure people can physically abandon something in order to make escape and then subsequently revoke the act of abandonment. I think they'd have to leave some evidence at the site of the alleged non-abandonment (perhaps a letter or message in a bottle?) showing evidence that the gear was not abaondoned but was to be retrieved at a later date - perhaps a pre forma "solicitor's letter" would suffice

Ice Screws and Cams are not finders keepers. Anything else you can keep.

In reply to Milesy: interesting

what about..

Ice Screws, Cams and gear on the floor are not finders keepers. Anything else you can keep?

of course it's still stealing morally and legally

You need to balance it up with the cost and effort to return. It might only cost 2 quid to return a found nut but if you need to spend 5 quid on transportation to get to a post office and back then you are going to end up out of pocket to the tune of the cost of the item - that is when legally you have a say in what is deemed a reasonable effort to return.

In reply to Michael Hood:
I spotted a newish looking wire under a block someone was tied to on top of Stanage a wee while ago.

Him: What are you looking at?
Me: There's a wire stuck under here.
Him: Well it'll be there for a reason. You'll never get that out.

So I lifted up the block and picked up the wire. But I did put his anchor back where it came from.

In reply to Michael Hood:
What would you say if I posted found abandoned gear. I left it where it was as you may come back for it?

In reply to franksnb:


well, littering is also illegal, as laziness should also be imo.

In reply to Michael Hood: Was your father a teacher by any chance Michael?

In reply to Michael Hood:

I'm with you brother. If you're biff enough to lose it, you're biff enough not to have it back.

And it makes me wonder about the trail of 'non valueable stuff' people must leave behind without realising. All that litter comes from somewhere.

In reply to mutt:

I like it.

In reply to Michael Hood: Life to me seems simple, if you find something that should not be there from a coke can to a shiny cam you remove it (if poss) to keep the enviroment as it should be. On returning home or to digs you bin the rubbish and post a lost and found as its the nice and good thing to do by returning kit. we all lose stuff at times and its nice to get it back and as the person reuniting the lost kit you get a good feeling even if it costs u a few quid to do the right thing in life.

If we all do the right thing the would would be a nicer place to live. Why can't the climbing community be the place to start?

In reply to Michael Hood: If people are looking for discarded/lost gear then I heartily recommend they have a peep under the rail bridge over the Clyde on a Monday morning.

In reply to Michael Hood: Back in the late 60s lost and stuck gear supplemented our meagre rack

In reply to Michael Hood:

Agreed. All these people shld learn how to use a nutkey properly...

In reply to FB:

^^^ This

I'm consistently disheartened by the attitudes on here. I used to have a right rant about it. Now I've just taken it as proving my long-held view that most humans are selfish knobheads. I used to have this view that climbers were different in some way, and were really into helping each other out and caring about other folk who get into trouble and behaving like a community and the like. Ah well.

In reply to mutt: "well, littering is also illegal, as laziness should also be imo. " is that an ironic abbreviation?

In reply to JDal: you're right John, I think the technical description is 'Theft by Finding'..... really it is!

Steve

In reply to Michael Hood:

The courts are generally pretty slow to consider any property as being abandoned and I wouldn't advise anyone that they could legally keep recently stuck gear without trying to return it.

In reply to FB:

W. O. R. D.

In reply to Michael Hood:

theres an obvious difference between lost and abandoned gear, and in a cramped community with such online facility as the uk then its silly not to offer back a bunch of shiny new cams or other gear left at a crag.

but, abandoned is abandoned too. no one forgets a zipper of wires high on a face, every second knows to clean gear, we all know gear jigged in under roofs are hard to get and gear you retreat off is near-impossible to get back.
theres no debate that gear left because a team couldnt get it back is abandoned - what else is it? 'forgotten' is a pretty lame argument. not caring enough to collate your gear after a route is hardly a defense.

if you place the gear then its your responsability to take it away again. if you dont then allow someone else too.
theres as much 'community' in the sense that gear comes and gear goes as there is in handing obviously lost/dropped gear back, or not thieving from from an obviously work-in-progress route.

ive lost cams and screws, left wires behind, sacrificed krabs, had seconds forget or be unable to follow (and been that second as well at times) and had stuff nicked - more than ive ever found.
its the way it goes.
to anyone out there using my gear, good on you, be prepared to leave it behind yourself one day, maybe youre a skint student as i once was.

to anyone wanting 2 spectres, a #2 master cam, half a dozen wires, countless krabs, a dozen russian ice screws and an 8 miler walkie talkie, send me a mail and i will tell you where they are so you can try to get them out. good luck where i failed. yours if you can get them, use them well.

In reply to John_Hat:

Your sanctimonious crap really makes me sick. Especially coming from someone who was prepared to make up nasty little lies about what someone else (myself) said on here to try to bolster your own argument (You will no doubt remember that thread on the same topic a while back.)

The unspoken rule has always been that legitimate crag swag (ie abandoned jammed gear and abandoned abseil anchors) is fair game for the finder. In the long run you abandon some and you find some and it all balances out, and what's more it saves all this pathetic posting about abandoned and retrieved wires, not to mention the absurd hassle and expense of posting all this stuff round the country. Finding a nice piece of swag to add to one's rack always adds an extra little dimension of satisfaction to a day's climbing - it is all part of the game. Feel free not to play - it is your choice. However, as long as the majority of us stick with long standing tradition, you will always be the loser. I find that a satisfying little touch. I hope you get some compensation from your self-satisfied smug little misplaced morality.

In reply to John_Hat:

Oh, and what on earth do you think that caring about and helping out other climbers in trouble has got to do with the crag swag tradition? Conflating the two things is, I suppose, only to be expected from someone with your underhand style of debate. Really quite offensive.

In reply to Michael Hood: Wow, some people have got far too much time on their hands. There's a million and one worthy causes in the world that you could spend your time working on, and you, whole-heartedly, choose this. Seriously, create a life for yourselves.

In reply to ice.solo:

Right on the money.

In reply to John_Hat:

Despite your prejudice, most humans are not selfish knobheads, no more than are most meercats or most wilderbeest. Most people are decent: this should be obvious to anyone with any experience of life. People who advocate the finders-keepers ethic for abandoned gear are just as decent as you... but they are a bit less naive than you. Let me try to explain.

While most people are decent, some are not. This is the result of natural selection. Individuals of social species, like ourselves, on average benefit from co-operating: this is how sociality evolved. However, there is always scope for the genes of selfish individuals to prosper in a social setting; but only a certain percentage of individuals can be cheats before society begins to break down. In such conditions there is less scope to thrive by being a cheat, because people become more cautious (as by your own testimony you have done). When people become more cautious everyone suffers, but cheats suffer more than most. Thus the number of decent people always outweighs the number of cheats, but cheats always exist, though the proportion of cheats fluctuates a little.

Ethics are systems of behaviour which are endorsed by social animals to favour co-operators and punish cheats. They are a system for supporting outcomes which favour sociality (or, put another way, fairness).

The finders-keepers rule for abandoned gear is just such an ethic. Everyone has a fair chance not to abandon gear, everyone has a fair chance to find abandoned gear. In the end it averages itself out. Those who have a greater need of gear will be less inclined to abandon and more inclined to retreive their gear. Cheats do not prosper. Decent people do not suffer: a perfect social ethic, which maintains sociality.

By contrast the "post a plea for what you've abandoned-post a list of what you've retrieved" system ALLOWS CHEATS TO PROSPER and PUNISHES DECENT PEOPLE. Why? Because cheats will post a plea for the return of the gear they abandoned, but they will not bother offering to return any abandoned gear that they find: an imperfect social ethic, which leads to the breakdown of society.

How simple can it be?

This type of ethic only works where the property in question can be readily identified as abandoned. This is why it does not apply to cars in car parks. For this reason it is more self-evidently appropriate on remote multi-pitch routes than on roadside single pitch crags, and it was more self-evidently appropriate in the days before the internet, when finding the original owner of a piece of gear was virtually impossible. Nevertheless, it is still the single fairest system available to climbers - indeed it is the only system that decent climbers can adopt to prevent cheats from prospering - and if only we could all realise that we would all, ultimately, be supporting the society of climbers.

There seems to be a clear generation gap. Seems a lot in favour are climbing grey-beards who grew up with different ethics. Maybe back before the Internet and online communities a found ice screw in coire an t-sneachda was abandoned, fair game and unlikely to ever be traceable. Things are different now. More people climb. More people use ukc and log climbs. I don't think there is an excuse for swagging expensive gear.

In reply to Michael Hood:
When I'm climbing with other folks and using their rack, I normally don't mind abandoning some gear.

In reply to birdie num num:

The usual ethic is in such situations is to split the cost. Though I suppose it would balance out in the long run if it is a regular climbing partner and you mix up or alternate racks.

In reply to Milesy:

I realise you can't be bothered to read the whole of my last, long, post, but at least consider reading the final paragraph.

In reply to Michael Hood: A few years ago I lost half my rack to 'crag swag'! I'd bottled it on rock idol one evening and lowered off from the big thread 3/4 of the way up. Mate decided to lead it on my gear but slipped off before he'd clipped anything and badly broke his ankle, needing a helicopter rescue. When I returned the following evening to try and do something about getting my gear back it had all gone. I posted on UKC and actually found the climbing partner of the guy who had my gear, who put me in touch. Unfortunately he didn't feel he should have to return it...

The odd stuck nut or sling fair enough (although I wouldn't use gear I found anyway), but it would have been nice to have my 8ish quickdraws, several nuts, slings, cams etc back!

In reply to Yonah:

I clicked reply before you posted actually.

In reply to Jonathan:

You should've reported him to the police - that's theft, no question.

I had a similar experience once when I had to drive another climber to hospital. Still, swings and roundabouts.

jcm

In reply to Yonah:
I feel that was well put and sums up my thoughts (in an academic kind of way!).

It really bugs me that some people just can't accept that leaving your gear behind is just part of the game. We all lose it, and if we climb regularly find it too. I'm sure there are lots of people who have crag swag at home but they are not thieves or 'grey beards' they are just people who like climbing and have had a bit of luck.

In reply to Michael Hood:I wonder if this abandonment concept is just rather old school now. Back in the day if you found some gear left in a route there was not a cat in hells chance of tracing the owners, therefore the only option was to keep it. This was then justified by terms such as 'crag swag' Now with modern technology it's not really that tricky at all in many cases to trace the owners. I believe that some dinosaurs with dubious ethics want to hang on to the finders keepers old school 'ethic' of keeping anything they find justifying it in any way they can - basically claiming the owner didn't try hard enough to get it back. Who are you to judge?
Wake up and smell the coffee times have changed.

In reply to obi-wan nick b:

As I said to Milesy (not intended in a confrontational way), although I doubt you can be bothered to read all of my very long post at 23.41, please consider reading the final paragraph.

In reply to obi-wan nick b:
Yes I agree that it probably is moderately easy to trace owners of gear. However I think it would be reasonable to say that I (and I would guess many others too) would never go to great lengths to reunite someone with a lost/stuck/whatever nut etc. Sure I would ask about at the crag but if no one claimed it then its tough.
It's also easy to forget that there are plenty on people/groupswho never use ukc and have probably never even heard of it.
I think we all understand that there is a clear difference too between a jammed piece of metal in a cliff and a lost rucksack etc. The latter I'm sure anybody (climber/walker/cyclist) would take more than reasonable steps to reunite with the owner.

In reply to ice.solo:

Nicely put. Agree.

How much gear do you people lose, anyway? I mean, as far as stuck stuff or stuff left in retreat goes we're talking about a maximum of a nut, a sling, or maybe one cam if you really balls up... it doesn't seem to happen often enough to be worth getting het up about, really.

In reply to mutt:

I didn't CHOOSE to stuff my gear behind a rock and leave it, I really had no other choice, and if my life depends on leaving some rock clean of gear or getting away safely, then I'm sorry, I will always leave gear, but I will always politely request it back, knowing that it probably wont be returned, but just in case some kind soul felt they didn't mind trying to return it.

In reply to staceyjg:

Unless it is a multipitch climb, or someone is involved in an accident then I don't see why you can't just walk around to the top and Ab down. If it is a multipitch climb be thankful for the gear, but you did leave it.

As you said if your life depends on it you would leave the gear, that must make it worth going and buying a replacement, as the last one saved your life.

If you had an accident then it would be nice to get the gear back, as you couldn't recover it yourself.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I climb with my girlfriend, so for every wire she throws into the sea (which is how we lose most of our gear) I get repayment in kind.

We also definitely subscribe to the crag swag ethic. I think I posted up some rules that I'd copied off a thread on Supertopo the last time people were crying about this issue.

In reply to metal arms: Ive lost my first wife, do you think she may have possibly been crag swag? Good luck with her tho!

In reply to metal arms:


A long time ago an ex gf on removing a cam threw it back over head and down. Whereupon some old guy solo's up a few metres to grab it and runs off the git. Shepherds.

I got repayment in kind alright; when we split up she walked off with a pair of Axars in good condition. I'm trying to think of what kind of Swag that might be but can only come up with quite rude variants.

In reply to crag-gossip:

You lost her in the sea?

I was going to make a terrible swag/slag pun but I'm not sure it's the time or the place!

Anyway, if you abandoned her, would you be happy for someone to claim? If you were meaning to go back you should have done that quickly before someone worked her loose...

*Metal Arms means no offence to crag-gossip.
**Any hyper-sensitive souls out their who think the crag-swag ethic is symptomatic of a broken climbing community and immoral can go suck the left one.

In reply to JonC:


Cheeky bastard. You should've chucked a rock at him.


Cheeky bitch. Luckily for me, my rack appears to have absorbed most of Miss Arms' rack, so as it stands I'm up on the deal!

In reply to metal arms:


I most certainly would not want payment in kind from any of my climbing partners. I would rather do without a rack and die soloing.

In reply to crag-gossip:

I've got her. It took some work with a nut key. However, I never use crag swag - you just don't know it's history. Could have been anywhere.

In reply to Robert Durran:

It has certainly led to some, erm, 'uncomfortable' situations when out climbing with my mates.

In reply to JoshOvki:

It was a multipitch, and it was also getting late in the day, I'm not generally in the habit of just leaving gear, and had we been able to swap what we'd got for a bit of tap, we'd of happily done that. We did leave one of our old screw gates so not going to miss it that much, however, at the end of the day, I dont know what the issue is with posting that I have abandoned gear and would like it's return if possible? Is it really affecting your life that much that it bothers you that I have spent oooh, 5 minutes of my life to create a post which will probably go unanswered anyway? It is done on the off chance that someone has found it and doesnt mind returning it. Obviously the poster has nothing better to do than whinge about other people... Oh what joy!

In reply to Michael Hood:

I think that everyone misses a very important point in all of this, the only person really capable of deciding wether kit has been abandoned (crag swag) is the owner.

In reply to Vince McNally:

Jammed nuts are always obvious because they are jammed.
Overcammed cams are always obvious because they are overcammed.
Neither will have a quickdraw or krab on them.
Stuff people have abseiled off will be almost as obvious.

In reply to Michael Hood:

I do take exception to your assertion that any abandoned/forgotten/mislaid gear is "fair game". Not everyone is so perfect at gear placement/removal that they've never had to leave a piece behind. Have you never had to get help to get a piece of gear out? Never? So what do you do if there's no-one around to help? I can imagine many less experienced climbers have been in this position. That doesn't mean that they should forfeit their property to a more experienced climber who can't be arsed to put a post somewhere like UKC to say that they have retrieved gear.

In reply to Vince McNally:

If there is gear on the crag, and no-one there it has been abandoned/left behind. If it wasn't abandoned they would be at the crag with it.

In reply to Ava Adore: Perhaps the other person with you could help, if the 2 of you can't get it out call mountain rescue, it's what they're there for.

In reply to Sir Chasm:

*grin*

In reply to Ava Adore: I am a less experienced climber, and I can't say I lose much sleep over it. It's only the odd nut - it's not like dropping all your cams in the sea or having your rucksack lifted. If I have some gear get stuck I view it as a sacrifice to the crag gods and replace it.

In reply to metal arms:

So do you think its fair game to take it, no matter the circumstances?

I propose that those who like crag swag regardless of circumstances are tramps, jobless, students, student tramps, or jobless student tramps, and of course those from previous generations who enjoyed living a life out of living from bins, and stealing.

In reply to Milesy:

I propose that you post far too much imbecilic guff and make yourself look like a tit.

In reply to awwritetroops:

I hardly post at all so wind your neck in. Fud.

In reply to Vince McNally: Perhaps the people who rescued the gear always intended to give it back, but just never found the owner so kept it just incase they happend upon them some other time?

In reply to Vince McNally:


No. The rules are simple. And as much as it may pain some of you, Robert Durran is spot on. I can't be arsed to post the rules again, but a search should turn them up.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Oh no, not again....

Robert, it pains me to say this to someone a number of years older than me, but grow the f*ck up. If you are getting this offended by innocuous posts on UKC and describing them as "underhand" you really need to consider whether this is the forum for you.

In reply to Robert Durran:

[slightly frothing-at-the-mouth rant cut for brevity]

If you disagree with me, fine. It would be a boring world if we were all the same. But if you could throw a brake on your vastly-over-the-top reaction to anyone who disagrees with you then you never know the world might be a better place.

Peace

In reply to Michael Hood:

Strikes me that both sides are arguing different things. Those in favour are saying "there's no harm in asking" those against are objecting to a perceived entitlement culture.

In reply to John_Hat:


Hang on John, I remember the other thread. Not sure you should be taking the piss about rants...



And the bit that winds Robert (who I don't know by the way, and have found abrasive before, but appears to have a sensible opinion (as well as stupid headband)) up...



And the rules from the same thread -

#1 Any gear that you lose due to incompetence, getting spanked, fear, lack of skill , retrete, etc. becomes booty the moment that you give up attempts to recover said gear. The exception would be if you let it be known that were returning the next day at first light to resume recovery attempt. Once you give up on recovery attempts it is in fact BOOTY

#2 Gear left in the parking lot is lost and found, NOT booty.

3# Any gear left in the process of a rescue is NOT booty and shall be returned to the rightfull owners or next of kin.

#4 Finders of booty may offer to return booty to the spanked party but you will lose face if you accept the offer.

#5 it is extremly poor form to ask for lost booty to be returned to you. If the finders offer and you refuse the offer and they offer again then you may acept the return of the booty but you will still lose face and owe them a debt of honor. This debt may be eased but not completly erased by a gift of beer. (You and they will know that you are their bitch) It is best to suck it up and just say, hey, thanks for offering but you guys earned it.

The booty game is supposed to be fun and a way for strong poor climbers to build their rack at the expense of rich weak climbers. As soon as someone gets hurt it is not fun anymore so everyone should pitch in, help out and try to get everyones gear back at the end of the day.

The best form is to solo up to snag the booty gear or lead up but rapping in is acceptable provideing that all recovery attemts by the loseing party have been exausted.

All discussed before on http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=475672&v=1#x6565456

Are we done here now?

In reply to Ava Adore: I take exception to you not reading the OP properly and thinking that I asseted that all gear is "fair game". I never said that, I only implied abandonded gear was fair game and even then if the finder returns it - fair enough.

Also, there are plenty of times when I've helped less experienced people get their gear out. This seems to happen with newbies quite a lot at Stanage and I'm sometimes happy to solo up, get the gear and save them an abseil.

In reply to Ewan_B:

Spot on - the thing that got me going on the OP was that most of the posts are asking in a tone of "a perceived entitlement culture".

Stacyjg has come on and had a little rant, and she said that she was just asking on the off-chance. But her original post didn't communicate that clearly and has the "perceived entitlement" tone, which was why I included it in my OP.

Communication by written word is so open to miss-interpretation

In reply to metal arms:

In fairness, the quotes mentioned were regarding quite a lot of gear that was nicked whilst I was a short distance away involved in a rescue, and Robert (bless his cotton socks) was stating that he'd have quite liked to find it as it would give him great satisfaction to "own" gear that I used to have.

I don't think we're ever going to be friends

Trouble is, the booty game as described is not exactly one I agree with. I suspect its one written by one of the strong poor climbers. Just becasue its posted to a thread does not make it the law of climbers nor, for that matter, the law of the land.

Thing is:

1) You have no way of knowing that the person who left the gear is strong, weak, poor or rich. It might be the only bit of gear they have and they saved up for it for years and they live in a cardboard box somewhere. Unlikely but you never know.

2) Just becasue someone is richer than you doesn't mean they have a right to have their stuff nicked. (I'm aware that this is a minority view)

3) Just becasue someone is a stronger climber than you doesn't mean they have the right to your gear.

4) Just becasue you are a weak climber doesn't mean you have to expect your gear to be nicked.

Hence the "rules" are actually self-serving to the people who are strong and poor. Which given where it was posted from is not actually surprising.

So, sorry, no, not done here. You've found a website that supports your view. I'm pretty sure that there's one which supports mine.

In any case, we are (I believe) debating the current approach to gear retreival and return. If becasue of this debate the view changes then that's good. At present we have two camps, both arguing with eachother.

OK, its unlikely that any of the major players on the thread are going to change their opinion, but others looking at the thread of uncertain opinions may at least be aware that there are two camps of opinion.

In reply to metal arms:

Erm. No. Whose game? I have no special connection with you, play no game with you and follow no special code with you. I don't know you and to me you are just some guy at the crag with as much relationship to me as the table next to me in a restaurant.

Then there are those who are neither rich, nor poor and sit in middle incomes, with middle strength who work hard for their gear and cant afford to loose some or all of their gear some or all of the time.

In reply to John_Hat:


That isn't the point. They abandoned it.


That isn't the point. They abandoned it.


That isn't the point. They abandoned it.


That isn't the point. They abandoned it.


No. Self serving for the climbing 'community'.


Nah, there was some pretty strong feeling against it on Supertopo too.


Bleeding hearts v Climbers

In reply to Milesy:


In that case they shouldn't abandon their gear.

Climbing is just a game (to me). Expensive, but still a game.

In reply to Michael Hood:

I will be sure to include the words "on the off chance" should I be neglectful/weak/poorly skilled ..... (fill in the rest yourself) and litter/lose/abandon/ any future gear.

In reply to Milesy: Out of interest, how much gear do you actually abandon in retreat or get stuck in an average year?

In reply to John_Hat:

Disagreeing with each other about crag swag is not the problem.
The problems are your offensive lies about what I post and you suggesting that claiming crag swag is somehow comparable with failing to help someone in trouble at a crag. I would even help you just like anyone else if you were in trouble at a crag.

If you fail to see that you are completely out of order then you are either in denial or stupid. Probably both.

In reply to metal arms:


I'm simply not having this. My headband is dead cool.

In reply to John_Hat:

There you go repeating the same lie again you moronic arsehole.
Please go back and look at the thread in questuion and have the decency to come back and admit that you are an odious liar.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Sorry dude. It's cool*. I'm just letting jealousy cloud my judgement.

*Like flares. Or leather gloves.

In reply to staceyjg: If your's had been the only post like that I wouldn't have started this thread. Also retreating is not neglectful/weak/poorly skilled, it's usually good judgement as it allows you to come back another day.

As I suggested, carry an old sling on multipitch, I use a few metres from the best bits of a rope that's being discarded - can't seem to get rid of it, obviously not trying hard enough

In reply to Robert Durran:



I quote from: Robert Durran on - 22 Sep 2011

"ps I really do hope I one day I find one of your abandoned cams with your name and address on it. It would provode exceptional crag booty satisfaction."

Doesn't look like a lie to me. In fact it looks like a quite accurate report of what you actually put at the time.

Don't you understand that there's no point denying you said something when its five seconds work to dig up the relevant thread? Metal Arms even kindly linked to it above.

You're getting very worked up about this. Perhaps you need to go and have a lie down.

In reply to John_Hat:

Yes, it is exactly what I posted and I stand entirely by it.

I quote from John Hat today:

"In fairness, the quotes mentioned were regarding quite a lot of gear that was nicked whilst I was a short distance away involved in a rescue, and Robert (bless his cotton socks) was stating that he'd have quite liked to find it as it would give him great satisfaction to "own" gear that I used to have."

How can me saying that I would like to find one of your cams one day (IN THE FUTURE) possibly be interpreted as saying that I would have liked to have found one of your cams after a rescue (IN THE PAST).


Yes, I am worked up, because I strongly object to you persisting in your lies about me (and your other unpleasant insinuations). I post here under my own name and it is particularly nasty that you should persist in your accusations from behind a pseudonym. Of course, anyone could check the earlier thread and confirm that I am the honest one in this spat, but why should they have to do so?

You should be man enough to back down and apologise. The matter could then be closed.

In reply to Robert Durran:

In reply to Robert Durran:

You need to chill. Badly. No, I'm not going to apologise to you, now or ever. Get used to this as an idea.

I do, however, see what's got your knickers in a twist. When I referred to your statement I did not specify whether I mean you finding at the time or then (september) or the future. I actually was thinking of the future. You've read into it what narks you the most, and gone apesh*t.

However, and I'd like to stress this:

1. You've stated that you would really like to get hold of gear that I had stolen from me becasue you would get off on it in some little way. I thought - on the other thread - that this was a false statement made to wind me up. I'm actually surprised that you actually stand by it.

Saying that you would like to have in your hands stolen goods simply for the satisfaction you would gain from depriving the owner of them is a little strange, in my opinion.

2. So far on this thread, you've used the following in reference to me:

Your sanctimonious crap really makes me sick.
your self-satisfied smug little misplaced morality
you will always be the loser. I find that a satisfying little touch
your underhand style of debate
you are either in denial or stupid. Probably both.
you moronic arsehole.
you are an odious liar.

I think it's possibly past the point where we are likely to be friends, but do you not think you've gone a little too far into overdrive on this one?

Also, given the above, do you not think it is quite ironic that you are asking me to apologise to you?

In reply to John_Hat:

I didn't think so. Oh well, it's you that comes off looking bad for not doing so.


Well that is not what you wrote. Either you are now trying to wriggle out of what you wrote and meant, or else you didn't mean what you wrote, but it has taken you until now to even go half way to admitting it despite several invitations from me to review what you had written.


Again you repeat your lie. I said that I would get satisfaction in the future from finding some crag swag that formerly belonged to you. I said nothing about stolen gear. I get satisfaction from all legitimate crag swag. I would get particular satisfaction if it formerly belonged to you because of your holier than thou way that you insisted that all crag swag is theft - nothing to do with unfortunate removal of your gear afterv the rescue. I still stand by this.


I presume you use the word "stolen" here because you consider all crag swag theft (unless you are yet again repeating your lie). I don't. Nor do many, possibly most, others. That is what this debate has been about.

Indeed I have. In the light of your continued failure to apologise for the lies you choose to propagate about me in public, I stand by all of them.


No.

In reply to Yonah:
Well put.

I think it's quite simple, if a bit of gear on a route has no biner or runner on it, and is hard to remove or has abseil tat on it, then it's highly likely it's been abandoned if there are no climbers in the vicinity that own the gear. If you can get it out it's yours. The more remote the place and the fewer people about the more this holds.

However if it is laying on the floor somewhere at the top or base of the crag in a place that it is easy to retreive and get to (ie not the bottom of observatory gully etc) then it's probably been acidentally lost and as such an attempt to find the owner should be made.

In reply to John_Hat:
Whilst we disagree on the crag swag debate, respect for keeping your head when those around you are losing theirs

In reply to Michael Hood:
I found loads of crag swag hanging up in Cotswolds the other day, it was really easy to get out.

In reply to John_Hat:

Just checked the other thread for your original lie. Quoting you verbatim referring to the cams of yours that were removed during the rescue:

"It was after I explained the situation re the cams that Robert "Sorry that rucksack was just lying there clearly in need of a new owner" Durran pointed out that he'd quite like to have thieved them himself."

Clear cut blatant lie. And insinuating that I thought an unattended rucksack was fair game.

I think I can rest my case.

In reply to Robert Durran & John_Hat: Please stop arguing in public, go and do it on a separate thread titled something like "spat between RD & JH" so that we can avoid it if we want or do it via e-mail or whatever.

In reply to Michael Hood:

You have a good point. Apologies for the thread hijack. However, his nasty lies were in public, so an apology realy ought to be too. But since it looks like one won't be forthcoming and the facts speak for themselves anyway, I'll drop it now.

In reply to Michael Hood:

It seems to me that if more teams adopted a policy of splitting all losses 50/50, as they should, you'd see a lot fewer requests for the return of a single sling/krab/nut. Nobody should get that worked up over a fiver.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:
Thats the system I use especially if my partner doesn't own a lead rack or we usually climb on mine.

In reply to CurlyStevo:

It's fair, and I always stress that there is no apportioning of blame or exemption for stupidity. Whatever the circumstances, 50/50. It's a team game.

In reply to Michael Hood:

Fair enough & you do have a point

In reply to Ava Adore:

If your nuts aren't falling out behind you of their own accord, then I'm not sure you can be considered a beginner any longer.

In reply to Jamie Bankhead:

I assumed everyone did.

:-o

In reply to Robert Durran:

To be honest this isn't doing either of you any favours. And as common forum lurker, I generally have a lot of time for what both of you say on many other threads.

cheers
mark

I left my heart in Papworth General

In reply to Michael Hood: Stop bitching about something that we all do and has happened to all of us...

In reply to Michael Hood: This is the most entertaining thread ever, actually read the whole thing. The argument was the high point. Can I let you in on a little secret, I keep things!!!! Shhhhh!

In reply to Michael Hood: I never have trouble with gear getting stuck. Quite the opposite in fact.

In reply to jim hughes:

My pleasure.
Arguments are usually so when one simply knows one is right.