This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
If you add up the number of climbing hours of indoor vs outdoor it seems likely that climbing is now more of an indoor rather than an outdoor sport. I'm pretty sure I climb far more indoors than outdoors. For half the year the weather is crap and even when its good with limited time its possible to nip down to the local wall for a few hours when there's not enough time to climb outside. With bouldering walls you don't even need to organize a partner so you can maximize your time slots.
Many will argue that indoor climbing is merely training for the real thing. In fact that's how I've always thought about it. But when I think about it I don't think that's really true. I go to walls not just to get fitter but because I enjoy climbing and plastic is just like a different rock type. Most people I see aren't training in any structured way, they're trying to tick off routes the same as one does outside. That's why routes and problems have to be changed on a regular basis. Added to that the best indoor walls these days are just as spectacular as many of our crags.
A friend of mine from London estimated that around 70% of climbers he met at his local wall had never climbed outside and had no aspirations to do so. Whilst there have always been some climbers like that at walls its never, in my experience, been anything like that proportion.
For many beginners their first experience of climbing is increasingly likely to be indoors. Indoor walls are close to population centres. It's easier to set up instruction. Crags tend to be far away.
I would guess that the change from outdoor to indoor climbing (ie. when more than 50% of people-hours was spent climbing indoors) was probably fairly recent, probably in the past few decades or so. Indoor walls became really popular after the first modern climbing wall, The Foundry, opened in 1991. The newer, pure bouldering walls, like the Climbing Works can only have accelerated the trend to indoors.
If this trend continues what will climbing look like in the future?
Will outdoor climbers become a minority group in the larger whole at some point?
What else is implied if climbing is now a mostly indoor sport?
Many will argue that indoor climbing is merely training for the real thing. In fact that's how I've always thought about it. But when I think about it I don't think that's really true. I go to walls not just to get fitter but because I enjoy climbing and plastic is just like a different rock type. Most people I see aren't training in any structured way, they're trying to tick off routes the same as one does outside. That's why routes and problems have to be changed on a regular basis. Added to that the best indoor walls these days are just as spectacular as many of our crags.
A friend of mine from London estimated that around 70% of climbers he met at his local wall had never climbed outside and had no aspirations to do so. Whilst there have always been some climbers like that at walls its never, in my experience, been anything like that proportion.
For many beginners their first experience of climbing is increasingly likely to be indoors. Indoor walls are close to population centres. It's easier to set up instruction. Crags tend to be far away.
I would guess that the change from outdoor to indoor climbing (ie. when more than 50% of people-hours was spent climbing indoors) was probably fairly recent, probably in the past few decades or so. Indoor walls became really popular after the first modern climbing wall, The Foundry, opened in 1991. The newer, pure bouldering walls, like the Climbing Works can only have accelerated the trend to indoors.
If this trend continues what will climbing look like in the future?
Will outdoor climbers become a minority group in the larger whole at some point?
What else is implied if climbing is now a mostly indoor sport?
1
1
1
In reply to stp:
Indoor climbing is on the increase without doubt especially in the winter as it is so convenient. I still prefer the real thing with 80 days on rock and 41 on plastic this year . (Yes sadly I have a record/diary on UKC)
Indoor climbing is on the increase without doubt especially in the winter as it is so convenient. I still prefer the real thing with 80 days on rock and 41 on plastic this year . (Yes sadly I have a record/diary on UKC)
In reply to stp:
Mountain bikers are asking the same question regarding trail centres and yes, there are some who actually never grab a map and head off into the Great Outdoors on their bikes. Some don't even know maps exist or how useful they are.
But climbing walls and trail centres will never supercede the real thing.
Mountain bikers are asking the same question regarding trail centres and yes, there are some who actually never grab a map and head off into the Great Outdoors on their bikes. Some don't even know maps exist or how useful they are.
But climbing walls and trail centres will never supercede the real thing.
1
In reply to The Pylon King:
Or it means those of us who live darn Sarf miles away from any decent climbing can climb in an evening.
Neil
Or it means those of us who live darn Sarf miles away from any decent climbing can climb in an evening.
Neil
In reply to stp:
Sadly very true. I was at my local wall on a rainy weekend afternoon a couple of weeks ago, and I came to the conclusion that out of about a hundred people there that very few had ever climbed outdoors.
Sadly very true. I was at my local wall on a rainy weekend afternoon a couple of weeks ago, and I came to the conclusion that out of about a hundred people there that very few had ever climbed outdoors.
1
In reply to stp:
150 plus days climbing real rock and 0 days in door. Ok I live in gibraltar and we haven't a climbing wall.
150 plus days climbing real rock and 0 days in door. Ok I live in gibraltar and we haven't a climbing wall.
In reply to stp:
I see indoor and outdoor as different, but related, activities. I don't think it's a problem that some people only want to climb indoors. Personally, I'd rather be out, but each to their own. If they enjoy it, then who cares? Leaves the crags quieter for the rest of us!!
I see indoor and outdoor as different, but related, activities. I don't think it's a problem that some people only want to climb indoors. Personally, I'd rather be out, but each to their own. If they enjoy it, then who cares? Leaves the crags quieter for the rest of us!!
3
In reply to stp:
I live near the lakes and a quick look at my diary, 129 days 2013 and currently 121 days for 2014. 5 and 6 days for indoor. Its grim up north : )
I live near the lakes and a quick look at my diary, 129 days 2013 and currently 121 days for 2014. 5 and 6 days for indoor. Its grim up north : )
Post edited at 18:43
In reply to petegunn:
I am sure that the total number of hours clocked up climbing indoors far outweighs those outdoors (certainly mine do), but that does not mean it is predominantly an indoor sport; that would only be the case if indoors was not generally sen as training for or as progression towards out door climbing.
I am sure that the total number of hours clocked up climbing indoors far outweighs those outdoors (certainly mine do), but that does not mean it is predominantly an indoor sport; that would only be the case if indoors was not generally sen as training for or as progression towards out door climbing.
In reply to Robert Durran:
But is it? Surely that's the OP's point. Many people have no interest in progressing towards outdoor climbing.
To the OP: I even find that the rise of plastic climbing as a sport in its own right is starting to diminish the value of climbing walls as training for rock climbing. Especially bouldering walls with the increase trend towards competition style with lots of volumes, compression and big dynos and not enough gnarly crimping. Gnarly crimping is less fun and less tendon-friendly, but probably the most essential style of bouldering to pursue if one is mainly training for route climbing on rock. It's an endangered species at a lot of bouldering walls.
(The Climbing Station in Loughborough is one of my favourite modern walls in this regard - lower-angled than most, and a setting style where footwork and tenacity are rewarded more than the ability to do double-body-length dynos)
But is it? Surely that's the OP's point. Many people have no interest in progressing towards outdoor climbing.
To the OP: I even find that the rise of plastic climbing as a sport in its own right is starting to diminish the value of climbing walls as training for rock climbing. Especially bouldering walls with the increase trend towards competition style with lots of volumes, compression and big dynos and not enough gnarly crimping. Gnarly crimping is less fun and less tendon-friendly, but probably the most essential style of bouldering to pursue if one is mainly training for route climbing on rock. It's an endangered species at a lot of bouldering walls.
(The Climbing Station in Loughborough is one of my favourite modern walls in this regard - lower-angled than most, and a setting style where footwork and tenacity are rewarded more than the ability to do double-body-length dynos)
2
In reply to stp:
If you ask a similar question to all the climbers at my local wall, the Beacon, nearly all will climb outside too.
It's not predominantly an indoor sport.
But either way all climbing is good and it should all be encouraged. But outdoor climbing is proper climbing!
If you ask a similar question to all the climbers at my local wall, the Beacon, nearly all will climb outside too.
It's not predominantly an indoor sport.
But either way all climbing is good and it should all be encouraged. But outdoor climbing is proper climbing!
In reply to stp:
Two different "sports" in my opinion, although obviously they cross over, and indoor is useful strength and technique training for outdoor. There are those who only climb indoors and to them that's what climbing is, there are those who only climb outdoors, and those who who do both "sports".
Fair enough i say.
Two different "sports" in my opinion, although obviously they cross over, and indoor is useful strength and technique training for outdoor. There are those who only climb indoors and to them that's what climbing is, there are those who only climb outdoors, and those who who do both "sports".
Fair enough i say.
1
In reply to stp:
Probably, yes. I found myself in the slightly odd situation recently of visiting a bouldering wall run by people who don't really climb outdoors. You can see why there's no real incentive to set problems that translate well to outside.
Probably, yes. I found myself in the slightly odd situation recently of visiting a bouldering wall run by people who don't really climb outdoors. You can see why there's no real incentive to set problems that translate well to outside.
In reply to AlanLittle:
Yes, but I suspect they are still outnumbered.
As someone who sees bouldering entirely as training, I strongly agree; all those "wanky" problems are are waste of good training space.
> (In reply to Robert Durran)
> But is it? Surely that's the OP's point. Many people have no interest in progressing towards outdoor climbing.
Yes, but I suspect they are still outnumbered.
>
> I even find that the rise of plastic climbing as a sport in its own right is starting to diminish the value of climbing walls as training for rock climbing. Especially bouldering walls with the increase trend towards competition style with lots of volumes, compression and big dynos and not enough gnarly crimping. Gnarly crimping is less fun and less tendon-friendly, but probably the most essential style of bouldering to pursue if one is mainly training for route climbing on rock. It's an endangered species at a lot of bouldering walls.
> I even find that the rise of plastic climbing as a sport in its own right is starting to diminish the value of climbing walls as training for rock climbing. Especially bouldering walls with the increase trend towards competition style with lots of volumes, compression and big dynos and not enough gnarly crimping. Gnarly crimping is less fun and less tendon-friendly, but probably the most essential style of bouldering to pursue if one is mainly training for route climbing on rock. It's an endangered species at a lot of bouldering walls.
As someone who sees bouldering entirely as training, I strongly agree; all those "wanky" problems are are waste of good training space.
In reply to Robert Durran:
I *like* the 'wanky' problems.
If you want old-school training space though, good for you. Off you pop then, back down into the cellar!
I *like* the 'wanky' problems.
If you want old-school training space though, good for you. Off you pop then, back down into the cellar!
In reply to stp:
For a student at the university who works over 20 hours a week, climbing outdoors is limited not only because of financial reasons, but also because there's simply not enough time. As a result, climbing indoors is a convenient way to do at least some climbing. I had a great summer because of university holiday, but now it's just impossible to fit in any climbing (even indoors).
I hope I'll get outdoors more often next summer.
For a student at the university who works over 20 hours a week, climbing outdoors is limited not only because of financial reasons, but also because there's simply not enough time. As a result, climbing indoors is a convenient way to do at least some climbing. I had a great summer because of university holiday, but now it's just impossible to fit in any climbing (even indoors).
I hope I'll get outdoors more often next summer.
In reply to jezb1:
Yes, but the Beacon's in the middle of a major climbing area. Try asking at Mile End.
> If you ask a similar question to all the climbers at my local wall, the Beacon, nearly all will climb outside too.
Yes, but the Beacon's in the middle of a major climbing area. Try asking at Mile End.
In reply to stp:
I find this statement rather baffling.
> Added to that the best indoor walls these days are just as spectacular as many of our crags.
I find this statement rather baffling.
2
In reply to stp:
Well, that's facking Landan, innit bruv? etc.
> A friend of mine from London estimated that around 70% of climbers he met at his local wall had never climbed outside and had no aspirations to do so.
Well, that's facking Landan, innit bruv? etc.
In reply to stp:
Well at least there will be less crowds at the crag. Imagine if when you arrived at the foot of your chosen route and there were bodies all over it. I seem to recall soloing up Tower Ridge one fine winter's day and arriving at the Eastern Traverse to find 18 bodies ahead in the queue! I kid you not. Time to dive out...it must have been a bad dream.
Well at least there will be less crowds at the crag. Imagine if when you arrived at the foot of your chosen route and there were bodies all over it. I seem to recall soloing up Tower Ridge one fine winter's day and arriving at the Eastern Traverse to find 18 bodies ahead in the queue! I kid you not. Time to dive out...it must have been a bad dream.
1
In reply to AlanLittle:
That my point.
> Yes, but the Beacon's in the middle of a major climbing area. Try asking at Mile End.
That my point.
In reply to PPP:
I understand the time constraint especially at this time of year - but surely climbing outdoors is much cheaper?
> For a student at the university who works over 20 hours a week, climbing outdoors is limited not only because of financial reasons, but also because there's simply not enough time.
I understand the time constraint especially at this time of year - but surely climbing outdoors is much cheaper?
1
In reply to stp:
Indoor and outdoor (trad at least) are just so different that they're almost different sports. Outdoor is more than just a sport, anyway. It's just so much richer. Indoors is wonderfully beneficial for outdoor climbing, though, especially for building up the right kind of strength, learning to climb very steep/overhanging terrain well, and keeping very fit through the winter months.
Indoor and outdoor (trad at least) are just so different that they're almost different sports. Outdoor is more than just a sport, anyway. It's just so much richer. Indoors is wonderfully beneficial for outdoor climbing, though, especially for building up the right kind of strength, learning to climb very steep/overhanging terrain well, and keeping very fit through the winter months.
In reply to stp:
>
>
30 years ago there weren't any decent indoor climbing walls so those 70% would probably have not got into climbing at all. There are far more climbers overall these days but probably the same as always climb regularly outdoors when they can. Some crags and climbing areas may seem less busy but there are many more crags developed now, and well publicised, so that the climbing nucleus is more spread out.
Climbing like all sports is evolving and evolution is generally healthy. We all have more options and one of the big advantages of indoor walls is that it allows one to keep climbing further into old age and decrepitude. So what if some participants just enjoy walls for their own sake. Lots learn indoors these days and a fair percentage do make the transition.
>
> A friend of mine from London estimated that around 70% of climbers he met at his local wall had never climbed outside and had no aspirations to do so. Whilst there have always been some climbers like that at walls its never, in my experience, been anything like that proportion.
>
30 years ago there weren't any decent indoor climbing walls so those 70% would probably have not got into climbing at all. There are far more climbers overall these days but probably the same as always climb regularly outdoors when they can. Some crags and climbing areas may seem less busy but there are many more crags developed now, and well publicised, so that the climbing nucleus is more spread out.
Climbing like all sports is evolving and evolution is generally healthy. We all have more options and one of the big advantages of indoor walls is that it allows one to keep climbing further into old age and decrepitude. So what if some participants just enjoy walls for their own sake. Lots learn indoors these days and a fair percentage do make the transition.
Post edited at 21:26
1
In reply to stp:
I think it's an interesting question and you've put it well, so thanks for posting.
Statistically you're probably right and despite what some others might think, this is not irrelevant, as the growing mass affects the greater body of which it is part. This can happen for economic reasons, or just a shifting cultural sense of what is 'normal' or 'appropriate' or 'acceptable'.
Many (most?) gyms require some basic instruction or check or test of belaying skills in order to be allowed to climb at the gym and most involved signing a waiver - no matter how useless that may be, legally.
So, what if the relevant government department, in cahoots with the BMC (seeking validation for climbing to become Olympic etc) decided that all climbers needed to satisfy some minimum skill requirement to climb outdoors - after all, it's been common practice for indoor climbing for years now, it's what most people do, and accept, so it must be OK. Right? So you need to pass a belaying test (booked and paid at your local wall) and you need to sign a waiver (online, small admin fee) or you are technically behaving illegally on Crown land, you will not be covered by an public liability nor will the BMC insure you, or any insurer for that matter. You're clearly unqualified.
Similar things are happening in mountaineering. The stats of climber-numbers for the Nepal Himalaya are pretty gobsmacking to middle-aged fogies like me - huge numbers on Island Peak, Mera Peak, Everest, Manaslu and Ama Dablam then an enormous gap, flitting over Lobuche East, Chulus and other trekking peaks, then a few odd 'expedition' peaks here and there which traditionally and culturally (in climbing terms) made up the meat of expedition mountaineering, or so it seemed. That traditional expedition (maybe 'exploratory') mountaineering is now very much the minority, a statistical outlier. This is starting to influence the bureaucracy there - talks of mandatory guides on 6-7000m peaks for all - and is already seeping into insurance policies. The centre has shifted.
I'm in Australia, not the UK, but I feel it's becoming the same here. Outdoor climbing, particularly what is now amusingly called 'trad' is actually still pretty much a fringe activity, with a lot of concentrated sport climbing and a few busy gyms. Several times in the last year I've turned up with a mate at a classic 'trad' crag on a sunny weekend and we've been the only people there. Of course plenty of people still climb trad, and plenty more now climb quite hard, compared to 20 years ago, but the progression has not been linear - it's concentrated, narrow and patchy. The smoother, greater, growth has been elsewhere - ring bolted sport crags, and gyms.
I helped some friends build the first real climbing wall here in Sydney, Australia in January 1993 and the upsurge in numbers over the next couple of years was incredible - which I saw, and still generally see, as a good thing, as it got more women and more kids into climbing and created for many a pathway that did not previously exist. While I don't doubt it led to people sport climbing harder at outdoor cliffs, it also pretty soon it translated into 'problems' at crags with inexperienced, but confident, people doing silly things and occasionally getting hurt - but hardly in major numbers.
While that might still be a bit of an issue, I think a wider issue is how the statistical change will influence the traditional centre, hopefully not for the worse.
I think it's an interesting question and you've put it well, so thanks for posting.
Statistically you're probably right and despite what some others might think, this is not irrelevant, as the growing mass affects the greater body of which it is part. This can happen for economic reasons, or just a shifting cultural sense of what is 'normal' or 'appropriate' or 'acceptable'.
Many (most?) gyms require some basic instruction or check or test of belaying skills in order to be allowed to climb at the gym and most involved signing a waiver - no matter how useless that may be, legally.
So, what if the relevant government department, in cahoots with the BMC (seeking validation for climbing to become Olympic etc) decided that all climbers needed to satisfy some minimum skill requirement to climb outdoors - after all, it's been common practice for indoor climbing for years now, it's what most people do, and accept, so it must be OK. Right? So you need to pass a belaying test (booked and paid at your local wall) and you need to sign a waiver (online, small admin fee) or you are technically behaving illegally on Crown land, you will not be covered by an public liability nor will the BMC insure you, or any insurer for that matter. You're clearly unqualified.
Similar things are happening in mountaineering. The stats of climber-numbers for the Nepal Himalaya are pretty gobsmacking to middle-aged fogies like me - huge numbers on Island Peak, Mera Peak, Everest, Manaslu and Ama Dablam then an enormous gap, flitting over Lobuche East, Chulus and other trekking peaks, then a few odd 'expedition' peaks here and there which traditionally and culturally (in climbing terms) made up the meat of expedition mountaineering, or so it seemed. That traditional expedition (maybe 'exploratory') mountaineering is now very much the minority, a statistical outlier. This is starting to influence the bureaucracy there - talks of mandatory guides on 6-7000m peaks for all - and is already seeping into insurance policies. The centre has shifted.
I'm in Australia, not the UK, but I feel it's becoming the same here. Outdoor climbing, particularly what is now amusingly called 'trad' is actually still pretty much a fringe activity, with a lot of concentrated sport climbing and a few busy gyms. Several times in the last year I've turned up with a mate at a classic 'trad' crag on a sunny weekend and we've been the only people there. Of course plenty of people still climb trad, and plenty more now climb quite hard, compared to 20 years ago, but the progression has not been linear - it's concentrated, narrow and patchy. The smoother, greater, growth has been elsewhere - ring bolted sport crags, and gyms.
I helped some friends build the first real climbing wall here in Sydney, Australia in January 1993 and the upsurge in numbers over the next couple of years was incredible - which I saw, and still generally see, as a good thing, as it got more women and more kids into climbing and created for many a pathway that did not previously exist. While I don't doubt it led to people sport climbing harder at outdoor cliffs, it also pretty soon it translated into 'problems' at crags with inexperienced, but confident, people doing silly things and occasionally getting hurt - but hardly in major numbers.
While that might still be a bit of an issue, I think a wider issue is how the statistical change will influence the traditional centre, hopefully not for the worse.
1
In reply to stp:
If I couldn't climb indoors I'd still climb outdoors....if I couldn't climb outdoors I wouldn't bother indoors....I suspect that is the case for all my friends that climb...
If I couldn't climb indoors I'd still climb outdoors....if I couldn't climb outdoors I wouldn't bother indoors....I suspect that is the case for all my friends that climb...
> If you add up the number of climbing hours of indoor vs outdoor it seems likely that climbing is now more of an indoor rather than an outdoor sport. I'm pretty sure I climb far more indoors than outdoors. For half the year the weather is crap and even when its good with limited time its possible to nip down to the local wall for a few hours when there's not enough time to climb outside. With bouldering walls you don't even need to organize a partner so you can maximize your time slots.
> Many will argue that indoor climbing is merely training for the real thing. In fact that's how I've always thought about it. But when I think about it I don't think that's really true. I go to walls not just to get fitter but because I enjoy climbing and plastic is just like a different rock type. Most people I see aren't training in any structured way, they're trying to tick off routes the same as one does outside. That's why routes and problems have to be changed on a regular basis. Added to that the best indoor walls these days are just as spectacular as many of our crags.
> A friend of mine from London estimated that around 70% of climbers he met at his local wall had never climbed outside and had no aspirations to do so. Whilst there have always been some climbers like that at walls its never, in my experience, been anything like that proportion.
> For many beginners their first experience of climbing is increasingly likely to be indoors. Indoor walls are close to population centres. It's easier to set up instruction. Crags tend to be far away.
> I would guess that the change from outdoor to indoor climbing (ie. when more than 50% of people-hours was spent climbing indoors) was probably fairly recent, probably in the past few decades or so. Indoor walls became really popular after the first modern climbing wall, The Foundry, opened in 1991. The newer, pure bouldering walls, like the Climbing Works can only have accelerated the trend to indoors.
> If this trend continues what will climbing look like in the future?
> Will outdoor climbers become a minority group in the larger whole at some point?
> What else is implied if climbing is now a mostly indoor sport?
1
In reply to Dave Musgrove:
I didn't mean this to come across as critical of indoor climbing at all. Sorry if its that's the way it seemed. I like indoor climbing and I see advantages too. As you say those 70% probably wouldn't be climbing at all if it weren't for indoor walls. And for those of us who climb both in and outdoors the more people visiting indoor walls the better facilities we end up with because there's more money flowing into them. And if the crags are more empty because of it then so much the better. I hate crowds on the cliffs.
Rather than good or bad I just find it an interesting phenomenon, perhaps the biggest change in climbing since... ?? It's interesting to reflect where climbing is going, what will it look like in the next decade or so if the current trend continues? I wonder how it is elsewhere in the world too, where they have better weather and better rock.
> So what if some participants just enjoy walls for their own sake. Lots learn indoors these days and a fair percentage do make the transition.
I didn't mean this to come across as critical of indoor climbing at all. Sorry if its that's the way it seemed. I like indoor climbing and I see advantages too. As you say those 70% probably wouldn't be climbing at all if it weren't for indoor walls. And for those of us who climb both in and outdoors the more people visiting indoor walls the better facilities we end up with because there's more money flowing into them. And if the crags are more empty because of it then so much the better. I hate crowds on the cliffs.
Rather than good or bad I just find it an interesting phenomenon, perhaps the biggest change in climbing since... ?? It's interesting to reflect where climbing is going, what will it look like in the next decade or so if the current trend continues? I wonder how it is elsewhere in the world too, where they have better weather and better rock.
In reply to planetmarshall:
Only if you have some kind of transport. I pay 27 pounds monthly (I think it went up this month, again) while it's at least 5 pounds to travel somewhere out of Glasgow to climb (excluding Dumbarton, probably). So it's not cheaper as I used to climb 3-6 times a week.
Only if you have some kind of transport. I pay 27 pounds monthly (I think it went up this month, again) while it's at least 5 pounds to travel somewhere out of Glasgow to climb (excluding Dumbarton, probably). So it's not cheaper as I used to climb 3-6 times a week.
In reply to stp:
I do inductions at the depot in Nottingham and nobody over the past year climbs outside yet most become regular indoor boulderers in preference to going to the gym because its sociable. There are some people at the wall who like me are outdoor climbers and use indoor for training and fun at the same time (i have been using walls since the mid 70's). When the dedicated wall uses do go outside the results are amazing - ie first grit lead end of the affair or masters edge- etc etc,
I do inductions at the depot in Nottingham and nobody over the past year climbs outside yet most become regular indoor boulderers in preference to going to the gym because its sociable. There are some people at the wall who like me are outdoor climbers and use indoor for training and fun at the same time (i have been using walls since the mid 70's). When the dedicated wall uses do go outside the results are amazing - ie first grit lead end of the affair or masters edge- etc etc,
In reply to stp:
at the moment I climb outdoors 1-2 times a week and indoors 3 times a week, so in that sense I climb predominantly indoors but am still climbing on real rock much more than the average climber on ukc I imagine.
Indoors is great for training and id guess that the majority of climbers operating in the higher grades (I don't put myself in that bracket) will be climbing indoors more than out. Obviously there'll be exceptions.
Sometimes indoors is even enjoyable but don't tell anyone I said that.
at the moment I climb outdoors 1-2 times a week and indoors 3 times a week, so in that sense I climb predominantly indoors but am still climbing on real rock much more than the average climber on ukc I imagine.
Indoors is great for training and id guess that the majority of climbers operating in the higher grades (I don't put myself in that bracket) will be climbing indoors more than out. Obviously there'll be exceptions.
Sometimes indoors is even enjoyable but don't tell anyone I said that.
In reply to robandian:
Or conversely as I've seen happen after a winter climbing indoors exclusively. Heading outdoors for the first time and unable to get anywhere near the grade their indoor ability should apparently translate to. Resulting in never climbing outdoors again and either giving up or sticking to indoors only.
> I do inductions at the depot in Nottingham and nobody over the past year climbs outside yet most become regular indoor boulderers in preference to going to the gym because its sociable. There are some people at the wall who like me are outdoor climbers and use indoor for training and fun at the same time (i have been using walls since the mid 70's). When the dedicated wall uses do go outside the results are amazing - ie first grit lead end of the affair or masters edge- etc etc,
Or conversely as I've seen happen after a winter climbing indoors exclusively. Heading outdoors for the first time and unable to get anywhere near the grade their indoor ability should apparently translate to. Resulting in never climbing outdoors again and either giving up or sticking to indoors only.
In reply to PPP:
Maybe things have changed, but in the late 80's and early 90's at Leeds Uni we went out regularly all year round. It was a a case of scrounging a car lift, hitching a lift, getting the bus or cycling to local crags.
Not sure how far your nearest crags are but it was certainly not an option going to a climbing wall if we could get outside.
Maybe things have changed, but in the late 80's and early 90's at Leeds Uni we went out regularly all year round. It was a a case of scrounging a car lift, hitching a lift, getting the bus or cycling to local crags.
Not sure how far your nearest crags are but it was certainly not an option going to a climbing wall if we could get outside.
In reply to Richard White:
Hitching a long way aside, now try getting the bus or cycling to a local crag (that's any good) if you live in Milton Keynes!
I suspect there will be far more indoor-only climbers in the South East/South Midlands/East Anglia than the North out of sheer practicality. If I could go to the Peak for a summer's evening that'd be great, but I can't. Or not unless I want to be half asleep the next day from arriving home at 2am, anyway.
Neil
Hitching a long way aside, now try getting the bus or cycling to a local crag (that's any good) if you live in Milton Keynes!
I suspect there will be far more indoor-only climbers in the South East/South Midlands/East Anglia than the North out of sheer practicality. If I could go to the Peak for a summer's evening that'd be great, but I can't. Or not unless I want to be half asleep the next day from arriving home at 2am, anyway.
Neil
In reply to stp:
From the perspective of someone who is a thoroughly wall bred climber, I can assert (from my personal point of view) that climbing outdoors was always a goal, though I spent years convinced that it would be too difficult to get into it on my own.
Having finally chatted to some outdoor climbers, I realised this was not the case. A week later I was the proud owner of my first trad rack; a set of wild country classic rocks, four hexes and a few quickdraws.
The typical new climber adventure ensued, and within a couple of months I found myself wobbling up my first E2.
I think that gym climbing taught me how to climb, but it was climbing outdoors that really made me a climber. That's not to say that those who only climb indoors aren't climbers - far from it. It was just for me personally, climbing outdoors and experimenting with that potent combination of danger and physicality was the catylyst that changed climbing into something more than just heading to the wall once or twice a week.
Also, the popular opinion that gym bred climbers will struggle massively outdoors is, in my opinion, a spurious notion. I found my strength gained indoors easily translated to the real environment.
However, I also found that climbing outdoors hugely improved my technique. I quickly learnt to read routes better and more accurately, both indoor and out.
Climbing outdoors definitely changed what climbing meant to me, because it gave me a reason to train. Suddenly I understood the quest for strength - when there were all these incredible lines waiting to be climbed, how could you not want to get stronger? That feeling drove me from 6a indoors to 7c/E4 in a year and a half.
In my opinion, climbing is a growing sport in every aspect, and outdoor rock remains the true focus of the sport, and the growing trend of indoor walls will only enhance it.
Wow, that was longer than I expected!
From the perspective of someone who is a thoroughly wall bred climber, I can assert (from my personal point of view) that climbing outdoors was always a goal, though I spent years convinced that it would be too difficult to get into it on my own.
Having finally chatted to some outdoor climbers, I realised this was not the case. A week later I was the proud owner of my first trad rack; a set of wild country classic rocks, four hexes and a few quickdraws.
The typical new climber adventure ensued, and within a couple of months I found myself wobbling up my first E2.
I think that gym climbing taught me how to climb, but it was climbing outdoors that really made me a climber. That's not to say that those who only climb indoors aren't climbers - far from it. It was just for me personally, climbing outdoors and experimenting with that potent combination of danger and physicality was the catylyst that changed climbing into something more than just heading to the wall once or twice a week.
Also, the popular opinion that gym bred climbers will struggle massively outdoors is, in my opinion, a spurious notion. I found my strength gained indoors easily translated to the real environment.
However, I also found that climbing outdoors hugely improved my technique. I quickly learnt to read routes better and more accurately, both indoor and out.
Climbing outdoors definitely changed what climbing meant to me, because it gave me a reason to train. Suddenly I understood the quest for strength - when there were all these incredible lines waiting to be climbed, how could you not want to get stronger? That feeling drove me from 6a indoors to 7c/E4 in a year and a half.
In my opinion, climbing is a growing sport in every aspect, and outdoor rock remains the true focus of the sport, and the growing trend of indoor walls will only enhance it.
Wow, that was longer than I expected!
1
In reply to Richard White:
I know, I am still hitching in the UK - it's just more time consumed, so not always a choice. I don't go with Uni's club as I tried my best, but never got along with them.
I know, I am still hitching in the UK - it's just more time consumed, so not always a choice. I don't go with Uni's club as I tried my best, but never got along with them.
In reply to Ciro:
I find this statement rather baffling.
It's more than baffling, it's bordering on the ridiculous. No, not bordering - it IS ridiculous. Show me the indoor wall that beats, say, Shelterstone or Gogarth or Cloggy or Scafell Crag or Chair Ladder as a spectacle, either visual or emotional.
Such hyperbole should be avoided if one wishes to retain any credibility in one's arguments.
> Added to that the best indoor walls these days are just as spectacular as many of our crags
I find this statement rather baffling.
It's more than baffling, it's bordering on the ridiculous. No, not bordering - it IS ridiculous. Show me the indoor wall that beats, say, Shelterstone or Gogarth or Cloggy or Scafell Crag or Chair Ladder as a spectacle, either visual or emotional.
Such hyperbole should be avoided if one wishes to retain any credibility in one's arguments.
In reply to Martin Bennett:
Well, that's an aesthetic argument where you're not going to reach any sensible outcome - and he did say the best indoor walls (note: best) and "many of our crags" (not all). I don't go to walls that much, but walls like Awesome in Sheffield are very impressive structures, with the industrial heritage to the building adding interest. The big wall in Helsinki, where I lived until quite recently, is 30 mtrs high - bigger than virtually all the local actual cliffs! in that sense also very impressive. Then there are cliffs which are impressive in a macro sense, but on a micro level not so nice. Llanymynech springs to mind here, but many a limestone quarry might well fit! If you are judging the quality of climbing, Awesome Walls might be better than LLanymynech, but then you don't get the orchids and peregrine falcons at Awesome.
> It's more than baffling, it's bordering on the ridiculous.
Well, that's an aesthetic argument where you're not going to reach any sensible outcome - and he did say the best indoor walls (note: best) and "many of our crags" (not all). I don't go to walls that much, but walls like Awesome in Sheffield are very impressive structures, with the industrial heritage to the building adding interest. The big wall in Helsinki, where I lived until quite recently, is 30 mtrs high - bigger than virtually all the local actual cliffs! in that sense also very impressive. Then there are cliffs which are impressive in a macro sense, but on a micro level not so nice. Llanymynech springs to mind here, but many a limestone quarry might well fit! If you are judging the quality of climbing, Awesome Walls might be better than LLanymynech, but then you don't get the orchids and peregrine falcons at Awesome.
In reply to stp:
There has always been this kind of compartmentalism in climbing, from those who only climb (what we now call) trad, those who just boulder all the way through to the all-rounder who does a bit of everything. It's just a bit more obvious with indoor climbing.
I think that for quite a few of the indoor only climbers it's as much a social thing as considering themselves "climbers" - whatever that means. My niece went climbing with her school at an indoor wall and she probably spent as much time on her mobile phone "liking" her friends' posts about how "awesome" climbing is even though she was sat next to them.
In its own way it's a bit like going to spinning classes and saying you're a "cyclist" or going to an indoor snow slope and saying you're a skier. While technically true, there's so much more to all those sports than simply learning a very small part of it. As others have said, whilst many of us see climbing walls as a means to an end, many also see them as an end in itself. Both views are equally valid.
There has always been this kind of compartmentalism in climbing, from those who only climb (what we now call) trad, those who just boulder all the way through to the all-rounder who does a bit of everything. It's just a bit more obvious with indoor climbing.
I think that for quite a few of the indoor only climbers it's as much a social thing as considering themselves "climbers" - whatever that means. My niece went climbing with her school at an indoor wall and she probably spent as much time on her mobile phone "liking" her friends' posts about how "awesome" climbing is even though she was sat next to them.
In its own way it's a bit like going to spinning classes and saying you're a "cyclist" or going to an indoor snow slope and saying you're a skier. While technically true, there's so much more to all those sports than simply learning a very small part of it. As others have said, whilst many of us see climbing walls as a means to an end, many also see them as an end in itself. Both views are equally valid.
1
In reply to Martin Bennett:
>> Added to that the best indoor walls these days are just as spectacular as many of our crags
It is not only not baffling, it is manifestly true. The statement was "the best indoor walls are just as spectacular as many of our crags" not "the best indoor walls are as spectacular as the best of our crags". Obviously, there are some crags which are far more spectacular than any indoor wall and you've given a list of some of them. There are also many completely unspectacular crags in old quarries which are not as spectacular as the best of the indoor walls.
Ratho has more and better climbing than any crag within 30 miles of Edinburgh and is more 'spectacular' than many of them as well e.g. Ratho vs Blackford Quarry = no contest.
>> Added to that the best indoor walls these days are just as spectacular as many of our crags
> It's more than baffling, it's bordering on the ridiculous. No, not bordering - it IS ridiculous. Show me the indoor wall that beats, say, Shelterstone or Gogarth or Cloggy or Scafell Crag or Chair Ladder as a spectacle, either visual or emotional.
It is not only not baffling, it is manifestly true. The statement was "the best indoor walls are just as spectacular as many of our crags" not "the best indoor walls are as spectacular as the best of our crags". Obviously, there are some crags which are far more spectacular than any indoor wall and you've given a list of some of them. There are also many completely unspectacular crags in old quarries which are not as spectacular as the best of the indoor walls.
Ratho has more and better climbing than any crag within 30 miles of Edinburgh and is more 'spectacular' than many of them as well e.g. Ratho vs Blackford Quarry = no contest.
Post edited at 17:04
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
The statement is nonsense however you want to phrase it. No indoor wall is remotely 'spectacular'.
The statement is nonsense however you want to phrase it. No indoor wall is remotely 'spectacular'.
In reply to Michael Gordon:
Ratho.
The arch at Imst.
Planet Granite in San Francisco (because of the glass front with views to the Golden Gate).
> The statement is nonsense however you want to phrase it. No indoor wall is remotely 'spectacular'.
Ratho.
The arch at Imst.
Planet Granite in San Francisco (because of the glass front with views to the Golden Gate).
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
I thought we were just talking about the UK?
Ratho is impressive perhaps, not spectacular, and certainly not compared to 'many' of our crags.
I thought we were just talking about the UK?
Ratho is impressive perhaps, not spectacular, and certainly not compared to 'many' of our crags.
Post edited at 17:28
In reply to stp:
Its not a case of one or the other its a case of circumstance. Plenty of us don't have the time to drive for 8 hours to get there and back to a decent climbing area at the weekend only to find that the weather is so horrible that its a complete waste.
I used to live in Norwich and it was a good trip to the peaks and probably 40% of the time it was a waste of time. If you live near good climbing then brilliant but most of us don't. I now live in London and I'm in the same boat. I would love to climb outdoors more but I have a busy life and weekends are not that easy to get away on and its a long way to travel.
Then there is the deepest darkest winter that puts most climbing trips on hold unless you live close by and can pop out when the weather happens to be perfect.
I love climbing indoors and out but at the moment, indoors is the best I can hope for. I have no idea why people look down on those who only climb indoors as it can be just as much fun as outdoors and you tend to climb with a lot more people and get exposed to loads of different styles of climbing.
I have seen a lot of climbers who rarely venture indoors who are to all intents and purposes crap climbers. They have been doing it for 10's of years and climb at a level that most semi-keen people indoors would manage after less than a year. If they can be happy to bumble around year after year on easy trad then I assume they are happy doing so. I have no idea why people need to have such strong opinions on which is the right attitude towards climbing.
Its not a case of one or the other its a case of circumstance. Plenty of us don't have the time to drive for 8 hours to get there and back to a decent climbing area at the weekend only to find that the weather is so horrible that its a complete waste.
I used to live in Norwich and it was a good trip to the peaks and probably 40% of the time it was a waste of time. If you live near good climbing then brilliant but most of us don't. I now live in London and I'm in the same boat. I would love to climb outdoors more but I have a busy life and weekends are not that easy to get away on and its a long way to travel.
Then there is the deepest darkest winter that puts most climbing trips on hold unless you live close by and can pop out when the weather happens to be perfect.
I love climbing indoors and out but at the moment, indoors is the best I can hope for. I have no idea why people look down on those who only climb indoors as it can be just as much fun as outdoors and you tend to climb with a lot more people and get exposed to loads of different styles of climbing.
I have seen a lot of climbers who rarely venture indoors who are to all intents and purposes crap climbers. They have been doing it for 10's of years and climb at a level that most semi-keen people indoors would manage after less than a year. If they can be happy to bumble around year after year on easy trad then I assume they are happy doing so. I have no idea why people need to have such strong opinions on which is the right attitude towards climbing.
In reply to Martin Bennett:
No it's not baffling. It's absolutely true. There are many shitty little outdoor sport (and trad) crags much less spectacular than, say, Ratho. Some of them are unaccountably popular.
> (In reply to Ciro)
> It's more than baffling, it's bordering on the ridiculous. No, not bordering - it IS ridiculous. Show me the indoor wall that beats, say, Shelterstone or Gogarth or Cloggy or Scafell Crag or Chair Ladder as a spectacle, either visual or emotional.
No it's not baffling. It's absolutely true. There are many shitty little outdoor sport (and trad) crags much less spectacular than, say, Ratho. Some of them are unaccountably popular.
In reply to Robert Durran:
I started on an indoor school wall>it's not the venue;it's how you climb when you are there.
I started on a school wall back in 1972.No mats.Tiny crimps and an adjustable overhanging board,even then. I would solo up peg clip ups with one finger through each peg,to 40 feet,then back down.I guess you'd be kicked out for that stuff these days.
I also did a lot of buildering,which is another kind of highballing.Up to 6b English and no mats.Like I say,it's your inventiveness that counts,not the venue.
At the wall try footless ascents on easyish top rope routes.Play other strenuous sports,to train.Martina Navratilova,multiple Wimbledon champ,would play basketball to train.
Even a choss outdoor crag is worth the visit,even when cold.Live indoors ,you end up like some snooker players,pale and weedy,no balls.I went for a walk round the steep hills of new Mills today.A bit of hail and the roads were deserted.No other walkers and only one cyclist for 45 minutes.The Torrs was mainly dry;no climbers. Wusses.
I started on an indoor school wall>it's not the venue;it's how you climb when you are there.
I started on a school wall back in 1972.No mats.Tiny crimps and an adjustable overhanging board,even then. I would solo up peg clip ups with one finger through each peg,to 40 feet,then back down.I guess you'd be kicked out for that stuff these days.
I also did a lot of buildering,which is another kind of highballing.Up to 6b English and no mats.Like I say,it's your inventiveness that counts,not the venue.
At the wall try footless ascents on easyish top rope routes.Play other strenuous sports,to train.Martina Navratilova,multiple Wimbledon champ,would play basketball to train.
Even a choss outdoor crag is worth the visit,even when cold.Live indoors ,you end up like some snooker players,pale and weedy,no balls.I went for a walk round the steep hills of new Mills today.A bit of hail and the roads were deserted.No other walkers and only one cyclist for 45 minutes.The Torrs was mainly dry;no climbers. Wusses.
Post edited at 19:57
1
In reply to paul mitchell:
One safety aspect of indoor walls is that belayers tend to chat and forget to watch the leader.I've seen some bad falls due to belayer inattention.I once spent 2 minutes shouting to my belayer to 'take',but he was chatting to another belayer,and loud music was being played.I was massively pumped when he finally realised there was a life at risk.
One safety aspect of indoor walls is that belayers tend to chat and forget to watch the leader.I've seen some bad falls due to belayer inattention.I once spent 2 minutes shouting to my belayer to 'take',but he was chatting to another belayer,and loud music was being played.I was massively pumped when he finally realised there was a life at risk.
In reply to stp:
>>
It obviously depends where you live but up here in the Lakes, pretty much everyone climbs outside. First Sunday at the wall today for a long time and everyone was commenting on how we hadn't seen each other as the weather had been so good recently.
Whats interesting to me is that on more than half of my 100+ evenings or days out this year, my friends and I have been the only ones at the crag. Admittedly some of these are on obscure eden valley crags that no one in their right mind would go to, but have also included dry weekend days on Dove Crag, Esk Buttress, Eagle Crag, White Ghyll, Great End Crag, Miners Crag, Pavey Ark and Carn Dearg Buttress.
Conversely every time I've been to Castle Rock, Raven Langdale or Shepherds there have always been others there. So in answer to your question about what this holds for the future, climbers seem to be walking less for whatever reason, leaving the mountain crags for those of us that can be bothered - sounds good to me.
>>
> If this trend continues what will climbing look like in the future?
> Will outdoor climbers become a minority group in the larger whole at some point?
> What else is implied if climbing is now a mostly indoor sport?
> Will outdoor climbers become a minority group in the larger whole at some point?
> What else is implied if climbing is now a mostly indoor sport?
It obviously depends where you live but up here in the Lakes, pretty much everyone climbs outside. First Sunday at the wall today for a long time and everyone was commenting on how we hadn't seen each other as the weather had been so good recently.
Whats interesting to me is that on more than half of my 100+ evenings or days out this year, my friends and I have been the only ones at the crag. Admittedly some of these are on obscure eden valley crags that no one in their right mind would go to, but have also included dry weekend days on Dove Crag, Esk Buttress, Eagle Crag, White Ghyll, Great End Crag, Miners Crag, Pavey Ark and Carn Dearg Buttress.
Conversely every time I've been to Castle Rock, Raven Langdale or Shepherds there have always been others there. So in answer to your question about what this holds for the future, climbers seem to be walking less for whatever reason, leaving the mountain crags for those of us that can be bothered - sounds good to me.
In reply to jim jones:
Did you do an on-the-spot survey or something?
> Sadly very true. I was at my local wall on a rainy weekend afternoon a couple of weeks ago, and I came to the conclusion that out of about a hundred people there that very few had ever climbed outdoors.
Did you do an on-the-spot survey or something?
1
In reply to stp:
Out of interest, is anyone still bothered that people are climbing on British outcrops with no ambitions to progress to the Alps and the Greater Ranges?
Out of interest, is anyone still bothered that people are climbing on British outcrops with no ambitions to progress to the Alps and the Greater Ranges?
1
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Not really. Some of them will get there in the end...
Anyway, I thought we had just had conclusive proof that spending inordinate amounts of time climbing on grit outcrops repeating the same few routes all done decades ago is the perfect training for progessing to impressive things like freeing bigs walls on El Cap
> Out of interest, is anyone still bothered that people are climbing on British outcrops with no ambitions to progress to the Alps and the Greater Ranges?
Not really. Some of them will get there in the end...
Anyway, I thought we had just had conclusive proof that spending inordinate amounts of time climbing on grit outcrops repeating the same few routes all done decades ago is the perfect training for progessing to impressive things like freeing bigs walls on El Cap
In reply to Dave Ferguson:
miners crag? Have i overlooked a stunning and popular Lakeland venue? Clean, soaring walls of immaculate south facing rhyolite i bet...
i like my mountain crags with a bit of traffic myself (but obviously no one on the route I'm doing).
miners crag? Have i overlooked a stunning and popular Lakeland venue? Clean, soaring walls of immaculate south facing rhyolite i bet...
i like my mountain crags with a bit of traffic myself (but obviously no one on the route I'm doing).
In reply to robandian:
Nottingham depot (similar to other local East mids walls I use) has plenty of regular and very experienced outdoor climbers alongside the indoor only and occasional outdoor users. The indoor scene seems healthy enough to me, indoor bouldering in particular is pretty cheap and convenient fun cf outdoors if you take petrol and gear costs into account. Unlike Alan I find the setting good for outdoors, especially the mix of problems, sports loops and training boards. I'm dying to know who led Masters Edge or End of the Affair as their first outdoor lead.
Nottingham depot (similar to other local East mids walls I use) has plenty of regular and very experienced outdoor climbers alongside the indoor only and occasional outdoor users. The indoor scene seems healthy enough to me, indoor bouldering in particular is pretty cheap and convenient fun cf outdoors if you take petrol and gear costs into account. Unlike Alan I find the setting good for outdoors, especially the mix of problems, sports loops and training boards. I'm dying to know who led Masters Edge or End of the Affair as their first outdoor lead.
In reply to Martin Bennett:
I can show you a local bouldering wall that is better than anything at the Roaches for 80% of the time.
> (In reply to Ciro)
>
> [...]
>
> I find this statement rather baffling.
>
> It's more than baffling, it's bordering on the ridiculous. No, not bordering - it IS ridiculous. Show me the indoor wall that beats, say, Shelterstone or Gogarth or Cloggy or Scafell Crag or Chair Ladder as a spectacle, either visual or emotional.
>
> [...]
>
> I find this statement rather baffling.
>
> It's more than baffling, it's bordering on the ridiculous. No, not bordering - it IS ridiculous. Show me the indoor wall that beats, say, Shelterstone or Gogarth or Cloggy or Scafell Crag or Chair Ladder as a spectacle, either visual or emotional.
I can show you a local bouldering wall that is better than anything at the Roaches for 80% of the time.
In reply to Offwidth:
> I'm dying to know who led Masters Edge or End of the Affair as their first outdoor lead.
Yeah - that struck me as over-egging his pudding somewhat too! I suppose if someone very strong toproped them loads and loads first then led them is sounds vaguely possible, but as you put gear in both routes its still sounds very very unlikely for a FIRST trad lead.In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
That depends. Its debatable whether climbing in some grim, trash strewn, quarry in the middle of England after a long drive up the M1 is any more "richer" than a day at Ratho.
> Outdoor is more than just a sport, anyway. It's just so much richer.
That depends. Its debatable whether climbing in some grim, trash strewn, quarry in the middle of England after a long drive up the M1 is any more "richer" than a day at Ratho.
In reply to stp:
I climb more indoors than out but climbing indoors isn't a 'sport' at all for me. It's training.
If there were no indoor climbing available I would climb only outdoors (a bit more than I do now but not much more) at a lower grade.
I climb more indoors than out but climbing indoors isn't a 'sport' at all for me. It's training.
If there were no indoor climbing available I would climb only outdoors (a bit more than I do now but not much more) at a lower grade.
1
In reply to TobyA:
That would be good going - Caroline Ciavaldini's first trad lead was E3, then her second was Point Blank (E8).
That would be good going - Caroline Ciavaldini's first trad lead was E3, then her second was Point Blank (E8).
In reply to Falung:
Well, talk about giving an extreme example! I've never been interested in climbing in grotty trash-filled quarries, and the only ones I rate are Millstone, Trowbarrow and Staden. I was talking about classic trad crags of good natural rock, typically in beautiful settings.
> That depends. Its debatable whether climbing in some grim, trash strewn, quarry in the middle of England after a long drive up the M1 is any more "richer" than a day at Ratho.
Well, talk about giving an extreme example! I've never been interested in climbing in grotty trash-filled quarries, and the only ones I rate are Millstone, Trowbarrow and Staden. I was talking about classic trad crags of good natural rock, typically in beautiful settings.
In reply to stp:
I don't know if I feel envious of or sad for people who find indoors climbing as rewarding as outdoors. On the one hand indoors is accessible and dependable so indoor climbers get their fix much more readily but on the other hand it's soulless. I wish I could enjoy it for it's own sake but I just can't. It's a necessary evil that I participate in to help me do the proper climbing better. Even then I just get mileage in rather than following a structured training program. I view it as a chore rather than a pleasure.
I don't know if I feel envious of or sad for people who find indoors climbing as rewarding as outdoors. On the one hand indoors is accessible and dependable so indoor climbers get their fix much more readily but on the other hand it's soulless. I wish I could enjoy it for it's own sake but I just can't. It's a necessary evil that I participate in to help me do the proper climbing better. Even then I just get mileage in rather than following a structured training program. I view it as a chore rather than a pleasure.
1
In reply to GridNorth:
I wouldn't say I find it "as rewarding", but I do find it rewarding in its own right - I certainly put far more effort into indoor climbing than is necessary to maintain my (fairly poor) standard on trad. It's just that it's a completely different sort of rewarding - a fairly pure mental and physical challenge, trying to understand your body mechanics in as much detail as possible and figure out how to make them work for you. If you don't get off on that sort of thing (and you don't enjoy burning your mates off on the big overhang) then I can see how it'd get boring fast.
Also, I'm not sure that "soulless" is a word I'd use - to counter a rather vague point with an equally vague one, I'd say that indoor climbing has something of the same pseudo-spiritual "self-knowledge through rigorous self-discipline and training" thing that Eastern Martial Arts people sometimes go on about. A different sort of soulful from being out on a crisp winter morning in the Burbage Valley or keeping it together on a big, complex, loose, greasy mountain crag, though, obviously.
> I don't know if I feel envious of or sad for people who find indoors climbing as rewarding as outdoors.
I wouldn't say I find it "as rewarding", but I do find it rewarding in its own right - I certainly put far more effort into indoor climbing than is necessary to maintain my (fairly poor) standard on trad. It's just that it's a completely different sort of rewarding - a fairly pure mental and physical challenge, trying to understand your body mechanics in as much detail as possible and figure out how to make them work for you. If you don't get off on that sort of thing (and you don't enjoy burning your mates off on the big overhang) then I can see how it'd get boring fast.
Also, I'm not sure that "soulless" is a word I'd use - to counter a rather vague point with an equally vague one, I'd say that indoor climbing has something of the same pseudo-spiritual "self-knowledge through rigorous self-discipline and training" thing that Eastern Martial Arts people sometimes go on about. A different sort of soulful from being out on a crisp winter morning in the Burbage Valley or keeping it together on a big, complex, loose, greasy mountain crag, though, obviously.
Post edited at 14:37
1
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:
.... and GridNorth.... Sounds way too serious. I have fun wherever I climb and not living next door to a crag, indoor walls are a boon for filling a quick 2 hour gap or for when its dark. Its also very sociable and safe to try very hard.
.... and GridNorth.... Sounds way too serious. I have fun wherever I climb and not living next door to a crag, indoor walls are a boon for filling a quick 2 hour gap or for when its dark. Its also very sociable and safe to try very hard.
Post edited at 14:37
1
In reply to Offwidth:
Good for you. I'm not making a judgement just simply stating that I personally don't enjoy indoors
Good for you. I'm not making a judgement just simply stating that I personally don't enjoy indoors
In reply to TobyA: Surely if you had someone there who all the beta and the correct gear, then someone with the correct physical abilities from indoors could be guided up it as their 1st trad lead even without top-roping.
Would have to be someone who had a steady head or was totally brain dead though
Would have to be someone who had a steady head or was totally brain dead though
In reply to GridNorth:
You didn't simply state that though: you said indoor climbing was souless, which is judgemental. I guess you meant you find it souless, as others clearly don't (even if you dont understand why). I really enjoy the movement and challenge on well set problems and routes indoors, especially bouldering in a group of friends, and my trad leads/solos must be a good bit over the 10,000 mark now.
You didn't simply state that though: you said indoor climbing was souless, which is judgemental. I guess you meant you find it souless, as others clearly don't (even if you dont understand why). I really enjoy the movement and challenge on well set problems and routes indoors, especially bouldering in a group of friends, and my trad leads/solos must be a good bit over the 10,000 mark now.
In reply to Offwidth:
Soulless maybe a bit harsh; shallow is more appropriate I think...and I enjoy it - for a while between seasons.
Soulless maybe a bit harsh; shallow is more appropriate I think...and I enjoy it - for a while between seasons.
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:
Doesn't sound that extreme to me.
Much of my UK climbing has been in quarries. The only thing available within a 2-3 hour driving distance is that or Southern Sandstone/Harrisons (indoor leading is most definitely more fun than 4m outdoor top ropes), for the most part.
In terms of what I can feasibly climb on a regular basis, unless I spend all my holidays climbing and am happy to commute in a weekend more than I would commute to work in a month, indoor climbing is for me by far the most enjoyable and enriching experience.
I'd go as far as to say, when it comes to outdoors, anything short of big multi-pitch could be argued as being pretty soulless. Font and bouldering generally sound tedious, Birchen Edge and Froggat were vaguely enjoyable but no more so than an average night at my local climbing wall.
Its most definitely subjective, but there does seem to be a slightly elitist absolutism in the UK climbing scene. Anything other than gray days, spent trad climbing short grit routes is automatically inferior - bolt clipping, pulling on plastic or whatever else it is people get in to, its there to be looked down on.
Doesn't sound that extreme to me.
Much of my UK climbing has been in quarries. The only thing available within a 2-3 hour driving distance is that or Southern Sandstone/Harrisons (indoor leading is most definitely more fun than 4m outdoor top ropes), for the most part.
In terms of what I can feasibly climb on a regular basis, unless I spend all my holidays climbing and am happy to commute in a weekend more than I would commute to work in a month, indoor climbing is for me by far the most enjoyable and enriching experience.
I'd go as far as to say, when it comes to outdoors, anything short of big multi-pitch could be argued as being pretty soulless. Font and bouldering generally sound tedious, Birchen Edge and Froggat were vaguely enjoyable but no more so than an average night at my local climbing wall.
Its most definitely subjective, but there does seem to be a slightly elitist absolutism in the UK climbing scene. Anything other than gray days, spent trad climbing short grit routes is automatically inferior - bolt clipping, pulling on plastic or whatever else it is people get in to, its there to be looked down on.
1
In reply to The Ex-Engineer:
> Not really. Some of them will get there in the end...
> Anyway, I thought we had just had conclusive proof that spending inordinate amounts of time climbing on grit outcrops repeating the same few routes all done decades ago is the perfect training for progessing to impressive things like freeing bigs walls on El Cap
Those El Cap boys do a lot of indoor training too, maybe a bit more plastic pulling might raise the UKC trad average above Hard Severe?In reply to paul_in_cumbria:
More to the point, how many multipitch sea cliff routes do I have to do to get good enough too do the pink 6c on the steep overhang?
More to the point, how many multipitch sea cliff routes do I have to do to get good enough too do the pink 6c on the steep overhang?
1
In reply to TobyA:
I'd disagree Red Wall is a great sports crag, Black Wall has some excellent trad' routes and Grid Iron a brilliant days sport work out; all much longer than anything on Awesome Walls. Trouble I find with longer routes on climbing walls, is route setters run out of ideas beyond a certain length (at the grade I can do anyway!).
> Then there are cliffs which are impressive in a macro sense, but on a micro level not so nice. Llanymynech springs to mind here, but many a limestone quarry might well fit! If you are judging the quality of climbing, Awesome Walls might be better than LLanymynech, but then you don't get the orchids and peregrine falcons at Awesome.
I'd disagree Red Wall is a great sports crag, Black Wall has some excellent trad' routes and Grid Iron a brilliant days sport work out; all much longer than anything on Awesome Walls. Trouble I find with longer routes on climbing walls, is route setters run out of ideas beyond a certain length (at the grade I can do anyway!).
In reply to planetmarshall:
At £9 to get into the indoor wall and £30 in petrol alone to get to the nearest decent crag and back? Nope, indoor is cheaper.
> I understand the time constraint especially at this time of year - but surely climbing outdoors is much cheaper?
At £9 to get into the indoor wall and £30 in petrol alone to get to the nearest decent crag and back? Nope, indoor is cheaper.
In reply to PPP:
Take a leaf out of Dave MacLeod's book. He trained for years at Dumbarton (running to and from the crag from Glasgow I believe), and on a few strips of wood screwed above a door frame. Got him to 8b and E11ish. Not bad going. You could do that and spend the 27 quid on trips outdoors when time allows.
The above is slightly tongue in cheek I know, but it proves what *can* be done, given the will power and motivation to do it.
> Only if you have some kind of transport. I pay 27 pounds monthly (I think it went up this month, again) while it's at least 5 pounds to travel somewhere out of Glasgow to climb (excluding Dumbarton, probably). So it's not cheaper as I used to climb 3-6 times a week.
Take a leaf out of Dave MacLeod's book. He trained for years at Dumbarton (running to and from the crag from Glasgow I believe), and on a few strips of wood screwed above a door frame. Got him to 8b and E11ish. Not bad going. You could do that and spend the 27 quid on trips outdoors when time allows.
The above is slightly tongue in cheek I know, but it proves what *can* be done, given the will power and motivation to do it.
1
In reply to BarrySW19:
Well clearly that depends where you live, but £30 in petrol? At 40 mpg that would take you over 200 miles, and that's only if you're driving alone. Get three mates and your money goes much further.
> At £9 to get into the indoor wall and £30 in petrol alone to get to the nearest decent crag and back?
Well clearly that depends where you live, but £30 in petrol? At 40 mpg that would take you over 200 miles, and that's only if you're driving alone. Get three mates and your money goes much further.
In reply to Mike Stretford:
And while we're on the subject, why are indoor walls becoming "climbing gyms"?
And while we're on the subject, why are indoor walls becoming "climbing gyms"?
Post edited at 17:08
In reply to planetmarshall:
You need to allow around 40p a mile for realistic costs of car use and more if loaded with 4 climbers and kit. More than £10 each for a 100 mile round trip. The closer walls to the peak are cheaper than £9 a lot cheaper with a season ticket discount over winter.
You need to allow around 40p a mile for realistic costs of car use and more if loaded with 4 climbers and kit. More than £10 each for a 100 mile round trip. The closer walls to the peak are cheaper than £9 a lot cheaper with a season ticket discount over winter.
In reply to stp:
I think the answer to your questions may well be even more bolted crags and the retro-bolting of under used trad' crags in the (very) long term.
I think the answer to your questions may well be even more bolted crags and the retro-bolting of under used trad' crags in the (very) long term.
> If this trend continues what will climbing look like in the future?
> Will outdoor climbers become a minority group in the larger whole at some point?
> What else is implied if climbing is now a mostly indoor sport?
In reply to jim jones:
It's catching on? Great, I prefer 'gym'!
> And while we're on the subject, why are indoor walls becoming "climbing gyms"?
It's catching on? Great, I prefer 'gym'!
In reply to Mike Stretford:
Yeah I prefer gym too.
95% of my climbing is done in the gym. I still consider myself a climber.
I enjoy the flow, the exertion, buzz and movement from climbing. Even if that is indoors. If my location was better, that time would be spent at a crag. When I get chance to climb at the crag, the excitement and anxiety of the complete experience stays with me for days.
Indoor walls ensure that through improving my movement and strength, makes each time on rock more enjoyable.
> It's catching on? Great, I prefer 'gym'!
Yeah I prefer gym too.
95% of my climbing is done in the gym. I still consider myself a climber.
I enjoy the flow, the exertion, buzz and movement from climbing. Even if that is indoors. If my location was better, that time would be spent at a crag. When I get chance to climb at the crag, the excitement and anxiety of the complete experience stays with me for days.
Indoor walls ensure that through improving my movement and strength, makes each time on rock more enjoyable.
In reply to Offwidth:
Well it can be enjoyable. I've gone to the wall on rainy days in Wales and the Lakes. Relative to any sort of gym training it is wonderful. It's just that re. the OP I don't see it as part of 'the sport'.
> .... and GridNorth.... Sounds way too serious. I have fun wherever I climb and not living next door to a crag, indoor walls are a boon for filling a quick 2 hour gap or for when its dark. Its also very sociable and safe to try very hard.
Well it can be enjoyable. I've gone to the wall on rainy days in Wales and the Lakes. Relative to any sort of gym training it is wonderful. It's just that re. the OP I don't see it as part of 'the sport'.
In reply to stp:
My problem is that I took up climbing when people didn't really train for it, at least not in any serious or structured way. I would even go a stage further and say that it was also one of the reasons I was attracted to it i.e. back then people just went and did it. I always considered myself a fairly proficient climber, for someone who ONLY climbed, but the modern more serious attitude towards it has put hard climbing way out of my league. That and my age of course
I do of course acknowledge and appreciate the benefits indoors affords but for me it's just not "climbing" and is more akin to gymnastics.
My problem is that I took up climbing when people didn't really train for it, at least not in any serious or structured way. I would even go a stage further and say that it was also one of the reasons I was attracted to it i.e. back then people just went and did it. I always considered myself a fairly proficient climber, for someone who ONLY climbed, but the modern more serious attitude towards it has put hard climbing way out of my league. That and my age of course
I do of course acknowledge and appreciate the benefits indoors affords but for me it's just not "climbing" and is more akin to gymnastics.
In reply to jim jones:
Arguably if indoor climbing becomes more of a thing in it's own right, and the attitude that you aren't climbing properly until you're climbing outdoors becomes less prevalent, then it might actually mean less demand for easy bolted stuff outdoors, as people who basically just want to climb indoors do just climb indoors rather feeling a vague need to go outdoors but wanting it to be as much like climbing indoors as possible. Particularly if an increasing density of indoor walls leads to more competition and hence a better indoor experience.
> I think the answer to your questions may well be even more bolted crags and the retro-bolting of under used trad' crags in the (very) long term.
Arguably if indoor climbing becomes more of a thing in it's own right, and the attitude that you aren't climbing properly until you're climbing outdoors becomes less prevalent, then it might actually mean less demand for easy bolted stuff outdoors, as people who basically just want to climb indoors do just climb indoors rather feeling a vague need to go outdoors but wanting it to be as much like climbing indoors as possible. Particularly if an increasing density of indoor walls leads to more competition and hence a better indoor experience.
1
In reply to jim jones:
That's an appalling prospect!
> I think the answer to your questions may well be even more bolted crags and the retro-bolting of under used trad' crags in the (very) long term.
That's an appalling prospect!
In reply to GridNorth:
Surely it's still climbing, it's just not the sort of climbing that you're interested in?
> I do of course acknowledge and appreciate the benefits indoors affords but for me it's just not "climbing" and is more akin to gymnastics.
Surely it's still climbing, it's just not the sort of climbing that you're interested in?
In reply to Ramblin dave:
It's not rock-climbing perhaps?
> (In reply to GridNorth)
>
> [...]
>
> Surely it's still climbing, it's just not the sort of climbing that you're interested in?
>
> [...]
>
> Surely it's still climbing, it's just not the sort of climbing that you're interested in?
It's not rock-climbing perhaps?
In reply to Bulls Crack:
To be thorough, it's not ice climbing either. Or tree climbing.
But it seems odd to say "indoor climbing isn't climbing" rather than "indoor climbing has none of what I personally enjoy about climbing". Otherwise we could get to a point where people who enjoy pushing themselves sport climbing say that doing big mountain VDiffs isn't climbing and vice versa, and people who like big technical alpine routes say that trad gritstone isn't climbing and vice versa, all to avoid accepting that climbing is a broad enough thing that different people can enjoy different aspects of it for totally different reasons.
I mean, I'd imagine a lot of mountain bikers aren't too interested in going round and round in circles in a velodrome, but would they say that that's "not really cycling"? Similarly fell runners probably wouldn't say that Mo Farrah "isn't running" because he's just doing laps of a track?
> It's not rock-climbing perhaps?
To be thorough, it's not ice climbing either. Or tree climbing.
But it seems odd to say "indoor climbing isn't climbing" rather than "indoor climbing has none of what I personally enjoy about climbing". Otherwise we could get to a point where people who enjoy pushing themselves sport climbing say that doing big mountain VDiffs isn't climbing and vice versa, and people who like big technical alpine routes say that trad gritstone isn't climbing and vice versa, all to avoid accepting that climbing is a broad enough thing that different people can enjoy different aspects of it for totally different reasons.
I mean, I'd imagine a lot of mountain bikers aren't too interested in going round and round in circles in a velodrome, but would they say that that's "not really cycling"? Similarly fell runners probably wouldn't say that Mo Farrah "isn't running" because he's just doing laps of a track?
Post edited at 14:04
1
In reply to Ramblin dave:
Well yes but, in the same way, climbing a rope in a gym is climbing but in the context of what this forum is about it's not really climbing is it? Many people say they have "climbed" a mountain but similarly it's not really clmbing as we as rock climbers consider it.
Well yes but, in the same way, climbing a rope in a gym is climbing but in the context of what this forum is about it's not really climbing is it? Many people say they have "climbed" a mountain but similarly it's not really clmbing as we as rock climbers consider it.
In reply to stp:
It always was a predominantly indoor sport. We used to sit in pubs talking about climbing far more than we climbed. Now we go to climbing walls and talk about climbing.
It always was a predominantly indoor sport. We used to sit in pubs talking about climbing far more than we climbed. Now we go to climbing walls and talk about climbing.
3
In reply to Oogachooga:
Don't you find those wall bars get a bit boring after a bit compared with going to a climbing wall?
> Yeah I prefer gym too.
Don't you find those wall bars get a bit boring after a bit compared with going to a climbing wall?
In reply to Robert Durran:
I did use 'climbing walls', there was one at Bolton college and Sheffield uni, but I much prefer the purpose built structures at modern climbing gyms. I do sometimes head to a 'bar' afterwards (still called pubs in England), but you don't need one in the gym itself.
I did use 'climbing walls', there was one at Bolton college and Sheffield uni, but I much prefer the purpose built structures at modern climbing gyms. I do sometimes head to a 'bar' afterwards (still called pubs in England), but you don't need one in the gym itself.
Post edited at 14:18
In reply to Mike Stretford:
Was a big wall?
> I did use 'climbing walls', there was one at Bolton college.
Was a big wall?
In reply to stp:
Gosh! Are there really people who climb outdoors!?
When was outdoor climbing invented? What happens if it rains?
Gosh! Are there really people who climb outdoors!?
When was outdoor climbing invented? What happens if it rains?
Post edited at 14:39
1
In reply to Mike Stretford:
'Gym' is horrible! It suggests a place for doing repetitive exercises for strengthening muscles. 'Climbing wall' on the other hand like 'tennis court' or 'running track' suggests a place for actually doing a sport. The 'climbing gym' term plays into the 'indoor climbing isn't real climbing' world view.
Even worse, if you look at the US 'climbing gym' encourages a business model where they have step classes, weight machines, yoga, nice locker rooms with showers (!) all of which takes space away from the actual climbing walls.
> It's catching on? Great, I prefer 'gym'!
'Gym' is horrible! It suggests a place for doing repetitive exercises for strengthening muscles. 'Climbing wall' on the other hand like 'tennis court' or 'running track' suggests a place for actually doing a sport. The 'climbing gym' term plays into the 'indoor climbing isn't real climbing' world view.
Even worse, if you look at the US 'climbing gym' encourages a business model where they have step classes, weight machines, yoga, nice locker rooms with showers (!) all of which takes space away from the actual climbing walls.
1
In reply to Mike Stretford:
You have missed both my (poor) joke and my point.
Anyway, as you have pointed out, modern climbing walls have evolved from just that - walls which people climbed on - and not from gyms, so the term "climbing wall" is entirely appropriate.
> enjoy!
You have missed both my (poor) joke and my point.
Anyway, as you have pointed out, modern climbing walls have evolved from just that - walls which people climbed on - and not from gyms, so the term "climbing wall" is entirely appropriate.
In reply to Robert Durran:
And as Tom pointed out, so is gym. I'm not really arsed, it's something I do on here for petty amusement, but.... I've used 'gym' for years to non climbers to convey that I am physically training indoors, whilst avoiding questions about Everest or an anecdote about a mobile climbing wall at the school fete.
> You have missed both my (poor) joke and my point.
> Anyway, as you have pointed out, modern climbing walls have evolved from just that - walls which people climbed on - and not from gyms, so the term "climbing wall" is entirely appropriate.
And as Tom pointed out, so is gym. I'm not really arsed, it's something I do on here for petty amusement, but.... I've used 'gym' for years to non climbers to convey that I am physically training indoors, whilst avoiding questions about Everest or an anecdote about a mobile climbing wall at the school fete.
Post edited at 15:23
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
I keep telling my local gym manager you could get a sauna and jacuzzi under the main climbing area but he won't have it.
> Even worse, if you look at the US 'climbing gym' encourages a business model where they have step classes, weight machines, yoga, nice locker rooms with showers (!) all of which takes space away from the actual climbing walls.
I keep telling my local gym manager you could get a sauna and jacuzzi under the main climbing area but he won't have it.
Post edited at 15:25
In reply to Mike Stretford:
Now that is an awesome idea!
Shit, add a bar and you have the perfect establishment.
> I keep telling my local gym manager you could get a sauna and jacuzzi under the main climbing area but he won't have it.
Now that is an awesome idea!
Shit, add a bar and you have the perfect establishment.
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:
That brings us neatly back to the OP. For me it is just training, sometimes it's fun and sometimes it's a chore but it's always training.
You could question that and you'd be right, I'd see a bolted quarry route differently but that's entirely man made like the gym/wall. Still, can't help the way I feel.
> 'Gym' is horrible! It suggests a place for doing repetitive exercises for strengthening muscles.
That brings us neatly back to the OP. For me it is just training, sometimes it's fun and sometimes it's a chore but it's always training.
You could question that and you'd be right, I'd see a bolted quarry route differently but that's entirely man made like the gym/wall. Still, can't help the way I feel.
Post edited at 15:38
In reply to stp:
Back to OP: what is the future of climbing? People will carry on climbing.
However if it leads to me never having to queue for classic routes outdoors...I am all for it!
Not being resident near gritstone scars...I would love going there at the weekend and seeing noone else than my own party. This however will never happen, neither will I ever be able to visit them outside a weekend. Dream on and keep on dreaming (sigh)
Back to OP: what is the future of climbing? People will carry on climbing.
However if it leads to me never having to queue for classic routes outdoors...I am all for it!
Not being resident near gritstone scars...I would love going there at the weekend and seeing noone else than my own party. This however will never happen, neither will I ever be able to visit them outside a weekend. Dream on and keep on dreaming (sigh)
In reply to stp:
Winter is starting and indoor climbers only will miss out on one of the most enjoyable and educational aspects of climbing - winter hill walking. They should try it.
Winter is starting and indoor climbers only will miss out on one of the most enjoyable and educational aspects of climbing - winter hill walking. They should try it.
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Elsewhere on the site
Fri Night Vid Le Toit de Ben - Quebec 1958
This week's Friday Night Video whisks us back to Val-David, Quebec, in the Autumn of 1958. Two daring young climbers embark on the ascent of a route that seemed unattainable, resembling a roof suspended in the air, defying all the conventions of the time....
3 May
Loading Notifications...