UKC

I'm trying to remember the name of a route I did about 20 years ago... all I can remember about it is:

I think it was somewhere in Yorkshire

It was some sort of 'tor' type outcrop

The route had an overhang

It was more of a bouldering type height

It was described as "the hardest v diff in the world"

It's driving me nuts trying to remember where/ what it was!!

Many thanks in advance

'Tor' in Yorkshire?  Almscliff / Almscliffe?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/almscliff-373/

Verandah Buttress (HVD 5b) is in Yorkshire but it doesn't sound like it's what you're after.

'Yorkshire'...!?  Sacrilege!

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/almscliff-373/the_nose-83

I think this was VDiff in my 1990s Yorkshire Gritstone, but I may be wrong.

Apparently the Walker Spur is only VDiff, so that would get my vote.

A close second would be an obscure chimney/gully first climbed in 1913, that I had to check for the Buttermere guide in the mid 80s. A "quick nip up this VDiff "to check the grade soon turned into a solo down climb for survival, tail very much between my legs. I took the copout of giving it a black spot.

Possibly... I have climbed at Almscliffe...

I made a trip to Laddow last spring, specifically to climb Southern Arête (VD). Thought that was pretty savage, though it might have just been me, and it's almost certainly not the route you're actually looking for. Put me well off trying Tower Face though.

As an interesting side question, what would everyone else vote as the hardest VD in the world, by UK consensus?

When I climbed well....back in the day., I had my arse kicked on many a Yorkshire or Cumbrian VDiff!!

There are some classics, I can't name them nowadays but if they were new routes now they'd never be VD!!!

There's a V Diff on Gardom's that went from V Diff to E1 5c in successive guides! Striker's Rib (E1 5c)

That's pretty impressive but doesn't surprise me!! I just had a look and it looks a solid 5c!!!

I recall a weekend about 30 years ago where I climbed Elegy at the Roaches on the Saturday then got totally turned over on a VDiff at Black rocks on the Sunday.......the old guys with their poor kit  were good!!!

There's a few of those at Brimham...

Controversial.. 

Indeed. The day I led my first E1 I followed it up by getting my backside kicked on the local "classic Severe".

My apologies, I appear to have misplaced the border such that I gave Yorkshire more of Stanage than it is entitled to ☹

Like a lot of such alleged changes it's probably not true. Such cases are nearly always not the same line or had a major change in difficulty due to rockfall.

My favourite is this one (the old VDiff went right below the roof and is currently about HVS)

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/kinder_southern_edges-940/noe_picn...

I did the old V Diff on Noe Stool from the Paul Nunn guide in the mid 80's, figured out it must have gone right and thought it a sandbag at that grade. Unlikely to have been HVS though, as I didn't consider myself a climber at the time and was wearing walking boots.

Edit: Just discovered I wrote "4b" after it in my diary.

My suspicion re Striker's Rib is that it originally escaped left into Byne's Crack before the top move, still quite hard for V Diff.

We checked it just after Over the Moors came out on a day with good conditions. I guess it's got eroded or you were going well as it's not 4b now. "Back in the day", routes wth hard starts were graded for combined tactics, if necessary, to bypass tricky moves: fair enough then but not now. I guess Verandah Buttress stayed at VD when a key hold broke for that reason then it became a standing in-joke (if you excuse the pun). There is of course a very hard to find 4c method for Verandah Buttress, and a couple of unobvious 5a methods.

Sometimes things were graded with less good intent...lots of 70s lower grade 'new' routes were deliberately given sandbag grades... Wharncliffe in particular was infamous for that. It's one reason why such a great lower grade crag, once one of the most popular in the UK, became a bit of a back-water. There were many more lower grade routes on Wharncliffe in 1900 than in 1989!

Hercules at Curbar was rumoured to have started as a VD, maybe as early climbers were good at offwidths and could use combined tactics to start. There are quite a few grit routes around like that.

I would say the Cuillin Ridge is one of the hardest VDiffs.

Lands End Long Climb - VDMA!

I've mentioned this on here at least twice before now!

My "favourite" is Tarzan's Mate (S 4a) .  I see it's been upgraded to severe on here, but is V Diff in my Northumberland guide dated 2004.! Climbed it (with one point of aid) in 2009, when I could still climb a bit.

VDMA? Very difficult, moderate anxiety?

I think the Striker's Rib one is a genuine story, if my memory serves. In my 1970 Chatsworth Guide it is given V Diff. I attempted it in 1971 or thereabouts but barely got off the ground. My (possibly flawed) memory of it is that it wasn't the sort of rock that bits fall off. 

Here's the description from the 1970 Chatsworth guide:

"Ascend directly up the rib, on adequate holds, to a large ledge at 15 ft. Continue up the wall above to large blocks, and continue past these up the final short wall to the summit."

There doesn't seem to be a nearby Byne's Crack.

Yes, Byne's Crack was my mistake, mixed it up with Green Rib when checking back. My memory of Striker's Rib (possibly also flawed, it was over 30 years ago) is that I soloed the bottom rib then escaped leftwards into a crack. Haven't been along there for a while so might take a wander this afternoon and have a look (it'll be horribly green so unlikely to repeat it).

I doubt it... it doesn't suit the style of a genuine VD of that era... it could be a rare sandbag... it could be a misplaced new route.. most likely it escaped left below the top arete.

My diary mentions passing a broken flake on Front Climb, maybe some more has come off since then (12.4.87). Sunny day but a cold wind with ice on the holds on Nether Tor in the morning apparently. Did the starts of Hereford's and Hartley's Routes at the Pagoda, plus Morrison's Route and Crowden Towers' Bristly Chimney, all in walking boots, so was definitely going well.

Some of those old Wharncliffe V Diffs are still complete pigs (Puttrell was certainly good at offwidths). 

Interesting. Please don't blame Puttrell for bad grading... firstly he wasn't vry good at documenting (hence the vast majority of his routes at Wharncliffe are not attributed to him) and secondly grading later in the first Peak guides was generally fair for the skill sets and lack of protection and the description often explained tactics for a tricky crux. I've done a lot of diffs and VDiffs solo in approach shoes.

Puttrell's grading was fair enough for the time, both the mindset and the skill set have changed since. I think many of the lower grade Wharncliffe routes are still undergraded for now though, especially by comparison with the main eastern edges.

I blame the extra friction from all that tweed🙂

I'm not so sure the grading is noticably harder for a crag now (ie in the latest definitive or selectives) taking into account the unusual rock type (good holds and generally good protection make for steeper climbing at the low grades).. and the lower traffic that leads to lichen and plant growth (especially in the woods). All the big sandbags sub VS have now gone. There are still plenty of hard for the grade VDs on Stanage.

There is something to be said for padded higher friction clothing for gritstone cleft struggles.

I remember thinking Cup and Saucer (VD) was pretty absurd for VDiff.

Wow..  I don't know that, but there is only one photo on UKC and it has the caption "Never Again" 

And let's not forget that VD — v diff, however you want to abbreviate it — is 'very difficult', and I can only imagine that at the outset of the British trad grading system it really did mean very difficult!

One definitely can't blame historic first ascensionists for historic grading when the grading system has expanded almost beyond recognition, and when 'very difficult' actually now translates to 'technically trivial' as a general rule. Even before you consider the regression in traditional climbing techniques and skills in the general climbing population.

Abseil Gully at Fastcastle Head: Not technically difficult but if V Diff is your thing you may find a single 60m pitch without a belay somewhat unnerving. (P.S. The loose blocks are the pro.)

Pencoed Pillar (HVD) is definitely the hardest vdiff I've done.

Labyrinth (VS 4b) Is pretty full-on for Vdif. It gets VS on here for the alternative finish but I climbed the original line the day after South Ridge Direct and thought it harder. 

Rake End Chimney on Pavey Ark used to get a Diff in the old F&RC Guide. As a chimney; there's not much chance of going off route, but many a team have bitten off more than they could chew on that one....

Some V.Diffs are just very difficult.   Maybe they just need a more descriptive grade ?

I would nominate Helfenstein's Struggle at Stanage as deserving this accolade!

Just been for a wander/bits of soloing on Gardom's. Re Striker's Rib I reckon that in 1988 I climbed the LH side of the lower arete (presumably the jam crack wasn't full of gunk then, which would probably make it about 4c), then swung up left using the ledge with the blocks on (4b) to finish up the chimney. Did the start and finish today but no way would I solo the jam/arete moves in their current condition. The top still looks desperate but there are good holds on the wall further left (maybe toughish VS?). Even with the escape left it must always have been a sandbag at V Diff.

Incidentally just round the corner is Nursery Slab, V Diff in the 1985 guide, HVS 5a now. I did it in 1988 and found the starting slab tricky, but it's basically a boulder problem with easier climbing above (S 5a?).

We found the adjectival crux on Nursery Slab was on the rugosities on the steeper upper slab. We agreed with HVS 5a. There is a wandering variation in the area of the slab that trends left to a ledge and overhanging groove (with good holds) which we called Nursery Cryme HVD4a, and which may have been the original route.

Can't remember anything about it to be honest. My diary and a note in the guidebook say "starting slab tricky as green". I usually commented if I left the described line, so presumably finished up the "slab and steeper wall above on rugosities", given V Diff in the guide I had. I didn't query the grade, so maybe it just seemed easier after the green bit? Haven't done Nursery Cryme, sounds plausible as the original line.

If we're allowed to include HVDs, then President's Progress at Brimham via the direct start up the offwidth must be up there. A whole different ball game (and grade!) to sneaking up round the R side.

Ha Haaaa I know someone who's a capable climber who (during short winter daylight) managed to have a complete epic, benighted and everything on Pencoed pillar!! Real belaying from tufts of grass, stuffing any grass or heather they could get into their jackets for night insulation, all that type 2 fun adventure tales all at HVD although I suspect they went off route?

Nope that sounds like they were 100% on the right track.

Sounds nice!

One time; half way through the 3 hour drive to Gist Ddu, I realised I'd left my rack behind the sofa leaving us with only a Friend 4 that lived in the bottom of my rucsac. Then it started raining so we went to Pencoed Pillar instead, which we did in trainers for better grip. I've done virtually all the UK classic mountain VDiffs in the rain and don't think Pencoed Pillar rates as one of the hard ones. There is even a Friend 4 placement on it somewhere...

Retreated from that after 2 pitches of near vertical vegetation. 

If 'the world' includes places beyond the Pennines, I nominate the Mummery Crack on the Grepon traverse. It was given UIAA grade IV when I did it 50-odd years ago, which  we assumed meant hard VD or very mild severe. It's graded 6b in the current Rockfax description, with lots of 4c elsewhere on the route.

FOUND IT! Quoting p. 69 of my 1990 "Rock climbing in Northern England" by Birkett and White:

AC31 The Nose 9m VD

The hardest V Diff in the world.

It's an entertaining book, that one. They were strong chaps. 

And no one's dared mention Angular Chimney on the Gribin Facet ... (or the 'easier' Monolith Crack, for that matter.)

Cheers Gordon. That's a rare Ogwen VD that we haven't done and we are sandbag hunters; must get on it soon. Is the crux the optional chimney and hole exit on the top pitch?

Two other Ogwen brutes are on the north wall of Milestone Buttress: Wall Climb (possible HS 4a)  and Canopy Route which is still given Diff!!! (possible HS 4b). Another is South Rib on Tryfan East Face at Mod (possible S 4a)

Monolith gets S these days (and is still tough for that before you get to the cleft) but anything that tests chest size is cheating really (so ditto for Helfenstein's). If anyone wants a genuine testing internal wiggle that makes Helfenstein's look trivial try this on Stanage:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/stanage_popular-104/the_birth_of_a...

It's impossible for me and tests squeeze experts so in my mind is a contender for the hardest to tick low grade route in the world.

Yes!!!!! Thankyou thankyou so much!!!

Climbed it probably in 1977 not long after I started climbing. We enjoyed it as an OK route and not too hard, were only climbing vd/s at the time. There were a couple of good pitches towards the top. Can only assume that the vegetation has really taken over in the intervening period.

Exhibition Crack at Bowden Doors used to be V Diff. I believe its HS 4C now. Still quite testing even at that grade.

Norse Corner Climb at Stanage was given V Diff at least until the 1970 guide and is now HS 4c. As everybody knows, HS is actually harder than VS.

In the "correct" Stanage guide, it's given VS 5a - the VS might be pushing it a bit but I'd be pretty sure that there will be plenty of people who find lots of 5a moves easier than the start of NCC.

We really need a full write up of this ascent...

Same. I took quite a long fall (I nearly landed on my second) from Stonnis Crack shortly after leading both variants of Birch Tree Wall. It was given Severe at the time.

Requires burly gritstone jamming experience/expertise and is IIRC not well protected unless you have some very big cams.

Not been VD for a long time and suited the skills and protection when it was.