UKC

There are a few people that I keep an eye on via Twitter that following Covid scepticism seem to be finding new conspiracy theories to push.

We have got the Covid stuff like promoting Invermectin, lots of vaccine conspiracies, especially around Pfizer and lots of its just a cold stuff.

World Economic Forum stuff, The Great Reset, Bill Gates and very loosely related stuff like 15-minute cities.

Stuff that provide tacit support to Putin. For example that Zelensky is a billionaire.

I just thought it would be interesting to try and fill a full bingo card, maybe with a few explanations as well.

The Great Reset is a stated aim of the WEF, not a conspiracy.

https://www.weforum.org/great-reset/

There is the claim about "US funded" biolabs in Ukraine. Seems to have been invented by the Russians and then spread by covid conspiracy theorists.

5g

Microchips implanation via vaccine jabs (very micro given the size of the needle...)

Same as Agenda 23. However, both are misrepresented.

My fav is Birds Aren't Real. If I'm around someone's house and left to my own devices I'll watch a few vids on their YouTube and let the algorithm do the rest

I got into conversation with a Putin supporter on the train the other day.  We had

- Zelensky a billionaire

- Ukrainians all Nazis

-Nato wants to invade Russia

- Russian is trying to avoid destruction.

I made some challenges at which point we drifted to "Do you know any history", "Britain is a terrible state" and, bizarrely "The state of the roads in the US  is terrible"

In the same way that 15-minute cities are a thing. It is the interpretation (misrepresentation) that is the conspiracy theory.

"Britain is a terrible state" and, bizarrely "The state of the roads in the US  is terrible"

both objectively true

The gas engineer who came to check our boiler about 4 years ago was the first person in real life to tell me about the Great Reset so it's been kicking around longer in conspiracy land than it has been a WEF proposal.

The central question is though, what do you think the WEF is? 

It's a long time since I've been but when I was last there I noticed the state of their roads was terrible! This was California, LA in particular, but I understand why public infrastructure generally in the US does tend to be really awful. Have US airports got any better than they were a decade or more ago?

Now I'm confused.  Is this a cunning attempt to recapture a conspiracy meme to mean something sensible, or is the WEF (and our current monarch) blissfully unaware of the 'other' Great Reset'?

Quite a lot of these sort of theories pop up on the twitter feeds of @BadVaccineTakes and @BadMedicalTakes, they are worth a follow for a laugh, urine therapy is the new panacea (allegedly)

#Chemtrails is my favourite conspiracy theory hashtag. People pointing their iPhone cameras at the weather bleating “it’s happening again, was clear first thing this morning.”

F&£&ing morons. 

I didn't argue that point, it just seemed a bit random!

The most incredible part of this is that you got into a conversation with someone on a train! Followed closely by the topic not being about the terrible train service or the weather....but the Russian Ukraine war... surely this was not with a stranger?

If it was, that is truly impressive

Getting into a proper conversation with a normal person about a normal thing, yes.

Getting into a conversation with an enthusiastic conspiracy theorist about the conspiracy theory of their choice however...
(So much so that it often happens anyway, even when you're actively trying to avoid it!)

Yep. Total stranger! 

QAnon and Trump as the great saviour. 

Thought all that bollocks was dead and buried but apparently not. As Trump's legal problems multiply he's been increasingly making coy Q references and bemoaning his martyrdom at the hands of the deep state. Utter bellend.

Even if Zelensky was a billionaire why do people think it would somehow make the Russian clusterf*** invasion somehow OK? 

I like the one's that could be true (for instance the moon landing did happen simply because it was far easier to build rockets and send them to the moon than it was to put all that effort and paperwork, paying people off etc into faking it) like the fact that Boris Johnson had his weird hobby of painting people in model buses to stop the Google algorithm from showing 'boris bus' searches showing the 350 millon to the NHS at the top.

youtube.com/watch?v=gLcCZjDoWTQ&

I also heard a similar one that the Disney movie 'Frozen' was simply made so that when you google 'Disney Frozen' you would stop getting articles about Walt's head being in cryogenic storage.

I don't think I've really met a proper conspiracy theorist - I sort of would like to just for s**** and giggles.

I think the idea is that Zelensky is getting secret money to do secret things for secret people - Presumable Nazis, Jews, the WEF and Bill Gates.

I teach secondary school chemistry and science, one of the cleaners here is a full on conspiracy nut. He hasn't said anything to me but has spoken to the physics teacher about flat earth. Apparently the conversation went something like 'so you teach physics, do you actually believe the earth is round? What do you think of the flat earth theory?'

I'm on a number of astrophotography and NASA / JWST groups on facebook and the number of flat earthers (or Flerfers) turning up these days is appalling. Any image of space on show whether something Nasa produced via Hubble etc or one of my own images is immediately denounced as fake by these (mostly american) religious wack jobs.  It's almost amusing how stupid they are until you realise that some of them could be educators.

I've worked with someone who believes this sort of tosh. When I explained that you can see the curvature of the Earth with your own unaided eyes (like when a ship sails over the horizon) he just wouldn't accept it. According to him they were just getting too far away to see. You then realise that there's no real point in engaging.

I shared a ski lift with someone who made a respectable living reviewing restaurants. In the course of one left he attempted to argue that the EU was a conspiracy between Jews and Nazis.

I may have sounded a little suprised; he was totally convinced.

We had a wonderful video posted to one of the local forums as an argument against Low Traffic Neighbourhoods (which are a bit of a point of contention here).  The speaker in the video linked LTNs to 15 minute cities and then to UN Agenda 30 (so far, so usual).  From there top down control of people's lives, via digital IDs, Zero Trust authentication, and blockchain NFTs came in, which was new (and surprisingly up to date for buzz word salad).  It finished off with a little light climate change denialism ("I was taught in school that CO2 is the gas of life" stuff), which gave it a retro-styled ending.

Definite bingo card material!

Have we done 5G yet? I was working near a big new phone mast around the time the Covid lockdowns were easing for getting back to work. Needless to say conversation soon got onto Covid. One of the managers for the contractors said, "Virus my arse, it's them, you'll see, it'll all come out someday," while gesturing to the phone masts. 

Is it really the case that flat earthers are also religious? I find that quite surprising as I don't really see any connection between the two. Interesting...

At least some are based on several references to the "four corners" of the earth in the bible.

After the huge fertiliser explosion in Beirut a few years back, I was in a pound shop, waiting to be served, when a nutter started ranting to the cashier about how 'the Israelis have blown up Beirut''. I tried to explain that this was nonsense, and, in fact, the Israelis had been some of the first to help. This prompted an insane rant, ending in 'Fact!'

The cashier kept quiet, and when nutter had left, said that she just let nutters rant, rather than try to argue; this was clearly not her first nutter rodeo...

fair point - two references specifically to the four corners https://www.openbible.info/topics/four_corners_of_the_earth only the first two here.

But that gets you a wikipedia entry of course! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_corners_of_the_world#:~:text=In%20Christ....

It doesn't seem necessarily to be suggesting an actual flat, square shaped earth though. When I meet a religious flat earther I'll ask for clarification!  

Jeremy Vine was doing 15 minute cities today on his Daily Heil meets Radio 2 show. I don’t know much about the theory but apparently it’s getting the usual suspects excited so I suppose that’s why he’s featuring it. 

Thankfully I was only in the car for 10 minutes so missed that segment. 

In a six month period in 2020, there were 159 documented attacks on 5g masts from these lunatics.

More than a few suggestions Russia has pumped effort into the covid/5g nonsense,  

I would argue that we have vulnerable individuals being groomed and recruited into a terrorist organisation, not unlike suicide bombers across the conflicts.  The individuals don’t know their position, their role, their disposable utility.  They’re attacking CNI on the basis of orchestrated delusions they’ve been drawn in to.  Others invaded hospitals in the midst of a pandemic. The gods alone know what attacks on CNI or other state facilities lie ahead. 

Lots of access land around us has stickers popping up on signage and waymarking posts; the topics are covid vaccination and “cash - use it or loose it” with something of a conspiracy angle to the later as well.

Has anyone mentioned Blackrock yet..?

We probably need something about Hillary Clinton too. Oh, and Hunter Biden.

I remember there being quite widespread campaigns against 3g on the grounds that it was going to give us all cancer or something.  I wonder how many of the 5g conspiracy theorists were signed up to that back in the day? 

Curiously I don't remember anyone objecting to 4g, did that get a free pass somehow?

I think the more sophisticated flat earthers are in fact curved earthers - trickier to disprove. Just watch out for the edge!

Oh, and I see the "Flat Earth" graffiti on the A9 has now had "round earth" graffiti added!

While not exactly the Dolomites, there is not a lot of flat earth beside the A9.

I wonder what's the 'conspiracy' behind flat earth (or rather conspiring to convince people the earth is round)? I mean if the earth really was flat, it would just be reality and we would all get on with it (ignore the physics obviously). What would be the point in hiding the fact?

Good thought. "Special Knowledge" only the in group has?

It's true there's a lot of nonsense around. So it's all too easy to sweep anything suss into the waste-bin. What was Elon Musk banging on about here ?

“Is there a conspiracy theory about twitter that didn’t turn out to be true? So far they’ve all turned out to be true, and if not, then more true than people thought.”

https://www.skynews.com.au/world-news/elon-musk-reveals-motivation-for-twit...

Or in other words: the shocking revelation that all the conspiracy theories are true (although the article doesn't really specify what these are), apart from the ones that aren't true, which are in fact total bollox. Thanks sky news clickbait, a real revelation there.

I was actually in a meeting with someone from the WEF last week. If found it very disarming that they referred to themselves phonetically, as opposed to W.E.F. 

I mean... wef, doesn't sound very scary does it? But perhaps its all part of their evil masterplan?

Gates foundation on the other hand... those guys are some efficient mother*****s who get sh*t done.

Lucky that mainly seems to involve improving health in developing countries. I obviously haven't yet got to the funding call where the crack open the microchips.

There is at least one more further down and there are also quite a few other references indicate the world is flat(ish) eg the devil taking Jesus to the top of a mountain to show him all the kingdoms.

I assume even most of the biblical literalists nowadays skip over those bits but for the really dedicated there are multiple suggestions the world is flat and probably square shaped.

For a laugh?  Watch those foolish idiots who believe us sail off the edge of the world.

It seems to be a mix of biblical literalists, some extreme conspiracy nuts who are so far down the rabbit hole they have to disbelieve anything mainstream and then a bunch of people who either just find it funny or have other reasons to claim to support it.

For example Mike Hughes was a supporter but I tend to believe his PR representative that it was just to get PR and direct funding for his steam powered rocket (the PR comments were after he died in a test flight/launch).

Nor did Tennyson: "For so the whole round earth is every way bound by gold chains about the feet of God."

Just a quick reminder. That some conspiracies...even some really far-fetched ones (see below) turn out to be true.

Reagan (or his administration) conspired to delay the release of american hostages so as not to give Jimmy Carter a potentially election influencing victory. For which the payback to Iran was the Iran/Contra debacle.

Yeah I get why people believe (or at least profess to), but I'm more asking about why the conspiracy exists in the first place. 

Rich and powerful cabals holding on to that money and power. Check. 

Beating the Soviet Union for cold war bragging rights. Check. 

The earth being flat but hiding it and pretending it's round. Doesn't make sense why you would spend all that money on hiding the fact (because just think how incredibly expensive it would be to do this effectively) for no discernible benefit to anyone. 

You just gotta understand stakeholder capitalism ! A few quotes below from the Open Democracy article :

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/oureconomy/conspiracy-theories-aside-there...

The idea of stakeholder capitalism and multi-stakeholder partnerships might sound warm and fuzzy, until we dig deeper and realise that this actually means giving corporations more power over society, and democratic institutions less.

Instead of corporations serving many stakeholders, in the multi-stakeholder model of global governance, corporations are promoted to being official stakeholders in global decision-making, while governments are relegated to being one of many stakeholders. In practice, corporations become the main stakeholders, while governments take a backseat role, and civil society is mainly window dressing.

“But GAVI, the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation – even Bill Gates himself – and Big Pharma opposed this proposal (lifting of Intellectual Property rules) very strongly,” said Nandi. “It's more important for them to protect their interests and market mechanisms than to protect universal health or protect people from COVID.” The WHO was approached for comment but has not replied.

So even if the WEF (or Bill Gates) is not responsible for the COVID pandemic, even if the vaccines are not laced with microchips to control our thoughts, something fishy really is going on in the realm of global governance. If you value your right to public health, to privacy, to access healthy food or to democratic representation, be wary of the words 'stakeholder capitalism’ when they pop up at the next Davos summit.

I guess it depends on the individual. However, the number on NASA/JWST pages that say that the images are fake because 'God' leads my suspicions down that route.  Of course, there's always the possibility that they're just internet trolls making ridiculous claims purely to get a rise out of the 'scientists'.  

Sticking to the astro theme vaguely, renowned astrophysicist and 26th greatest guitarist in the world (Rolling Stone) Brian May came out with this in 2020... 

"Queen guitarist and new vegan says ‘eating animals has brought us to our knees as a species’ despite source of pandemic still unclear".  and  “This pandemic seemed to come from people eating animals".

So it's not just the weirdos that are spreading dangerous conspiracy theories.  

I can’t believe that so many right minded people are happy to criticise on a daily basis a load of corrupt rich white men who run most of the western world, but completely and utterly refuse to even entertain the question about whether or not they’re being run (or at the very least influenced) by another load of richer whiter men. 

It doesn’t matter so much whether or not your believe the conspiracy theory, but you’ve got to admit that it’s remotely plausible. To me it sounds like potential for a 007 action movie, Klaus Schwab doing that spinning around in a chair with a cat on his lap, but throughout history the truth is more often than not more bizarre than the fiction. 

Meh.  That isn't dangerous and it doesn't involve a conspiracy.  It is a theory though - is one out of three good enough for you?

What! it's square as well as flat??? 

I'm not totally surprised that flat earthers and religious nutters are in overlapping circles on the venn diagram. I used to work with a Baptist who believed the earth was created in 6 days, a few thousand years ago. Dinosaur fossils were a "test of faith" and carbon dating was for anything older was not to be trusted because "God can set the initial conditions to whatever he wants".  This was a bright bloke who had been a TV repairman among other things.

There's nowt so queer as folk

Anyone mentioned lizards yet? or Common Purpose?

They dont need reasons aside from it being a conspiracy against them.

Although in the religious cases its generally satan/atheist plot against them.

Honestly conversations with a stranger are some of the most liberating - ultimately you can say whatever you want to someone that you'll never see again.

That's what 'they' want you to think... That's not a random stranger; they've been sent to get you to talk. Say nothing...

But therapy is expensive and strangers are free!

Don't forget MKULtra if you wish to understand how batshit crazy some deep state activity has been in the past...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKUltra

I heard Brian May say something like that and I think all he was getting at was that the eating of the animals carried with it mistreatment of animals and that certainly might have something to do with the pandemic so far as conditions in Chinese animal markets are concerned.

Guilty of loose imprecise and unscientific expression in this case certainly but not a conspiracy theorist I am pretty certain.

Now, can I interest you in the Bravermann - Israeli government axis on making judges toe the party line ?

A lot of that is probably at least half true, its just from what perspective and history you view it. And paranoia. 

on the plus side that then means Australia doesnt actually exist

Our government, beholden unto the ultra intelligent inner sun silurians cant even manage a stable government. How the hell are they going to manage the new world order? I see no surprise in a small group of fat old white facist men trying to engineer the world since they days of Alexander. Its reassuring that by the nature of man we always F£&@ it up before it becomes truly problematic. It cant be a conspiracy if you state you wish to do something then “hide” it in plain sight. 

Which bits are half true?  Zelensky was an actor and comedian before politics.  I am sure he was well paid but nothing suggests he is a billionaire.  Do you really think 50% of Ukrainians are Nazis (whatever that means)?  NATO wants to invade Russia??  Russian trying to avoid destroying things - have you seen any news in the last year?  It's just bollocks.

I think Trump is directly inspired from the Church Committee's investigation into MKUltra.

"If this government ever became a tyranny, if a dictator ever took charge in this country, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny, and there would be no way to fight back because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capability of this technology. "

and

"I don't want to see this country ever go across the bridge. I know the capacity that is there to make tyranny total in America, and we must see to it that this agency and all agencies that possess this technology operate within the law and under proper supervision so that we never cross over that abyss. That is the abyss from which there is no return"

I think Trump would like some of that.

I'm confused. Is it rich white men all the way down, or are talking about specific RWM running the other RWM?

Are most things (at least in social/political/economic life) "remotely plausible"? Doesn't mean it worth dedicating your life to.

Can you give me an example of one of these instances? 

Good question. I see the sceptics as independents (tendency right wing) both in perspective and employ ie. self employed, and/or retired - who all have less to lose going/thinking against the flow. If you're an employee then straightaway you can lose by criticising, and many of the biggest employers are WEF partners

https://www.weforum.org/partners#search

Of which those making biggest waves are Big Tech & Big Pharma - an enormous collective value, esp if you string on related industries / professionals. Invariably the stockmarkets and bankers follow in their wake.

The only rich influencer I can think of is Elon Musk - the 'anarchist' billionaire. But he's well aware of constraints imposed eg. EU industry chief Thierry Breton

Sceptics are lead by influential spokespersons, often authors, sometimes in research, sometimes motivated by their following. Averagely commercial clout is not what's behind them.

The WEF do have considerable influence. (then) Prince Charles introduced the Great Reset from their podium back in 2020. What is not more bizarre than fiction is just how ordinary the 'open' (WEF) conspiracy probably is. It's about power and control, traceable via finance, with a few psychopath megalomaniacs nudging things along. However, there are many globalist actors outside of the WEF, think US gov-CIA-FBI who are less visible.

BINGO!!

Generalising, not a conspiracy theorist myself so who knows in this instance.

Most would argue climbing rocks and posting on internet forums isn’t worth dedicating your life to, but here we are on a rainy Wednesday afternoon. It could be easily argued that worrying about the integrity of our democracy is far more worthy of ones time than scrambling on rocks, if I were to play devils advocate. Even if you were completely wrong in the end.

All of those fictional WW2 based films that exist, and not one of them featuring a storyline any more bizarre than Operation Mincemeat. The full truth of which only came out many years after the end of the war. The point here being that what you see occurring on the surface in the here and now, is probably only a fraction of all the goings on, and it’ll be interesting to see what files are released in 50 or 100 years time on today’s international events and how tomorrow’s generations will interpret them.

Averagely the Rich White Men will be aged 50+, given the time to collect their wealth. Do you know any Rich White Men who are climbers, or musicians, or active footballers ? Wealth collection is a sop for later years when physical ability & performance   are dissappointing, and in the absence of other strong life themes or activities. It can be done from an office desk or even an armchair these days.

What I don't get is what anyone might think they have to gain by believing in all of this shite. Perhaps it's just a feeling of being 'special' because they're convinced they see something that all the much cleverer people are blind to.

Thats one of the reasons often given (although obviously the sheeple arent much cleverer than them).

Another is for some like covid there is a need to believe that whatever is screwing humanity over is some other humans rather than just random chance/nature. Something about feeling more secure with it thinking it is controlled by people however malevolent they may be towards us.

Not quite sure how that one works to be honest but guess that explain why I aint a believer.

Ah yes: 'They can't be cleverer than me because the 'truth' is obvious to me and they can't even see it.'

As reasoning goes, it's delightfully circular Dunning-Kruger fodder.

You beat me to it, brilliant.

I also see many tin foil hatters falling into this category. The fact that they're self employed or retired means they're generally more socially isolated, insular and so more vulnerable to internet bollocks.

Not my experience. Most I've come across in work environments have been either a bit thick or a bit odd. This contributes to the common denominator of relative social isolation and makes them unlikely candidates for climbing the corporate ladder. The board of directors are unlikely to be having secret meetings along the lines of "Trevor from accounts is onto us and our WEF overlords so no promotion for that clever SOB"

Would you care to name some of these "influential spokespersons" promoting some of the up thread conspiracy theories?

Yeah WEF do have considerable influence, it's kinda in their own job description, they have adverts and campaigns where they basically say "we have considerable influence and we want to change things".

What the WEF also have is considerable utility as made up bogey man for Russian troll factories to focus on. Yeah, everything could be one big conspiracy by our evil overlords to enslave the masses (to what end I'm unsure, since our evil overlords already have all the power/money/kidnapped children/lizard suits and already run everything....never had a conspiracy nut able to explain that one).... or alternately, the rise in conspiracy theories has been hand in hand with the political desire and technological ability of adversary state actors to attempt to sow discord and distrust in Western liberal democracies.

Breton is the internal markets commissioner. There isn't a specific commissioner for industry but I suspect that Gentiloni, the commissioner for economy might be more towards what you are suggesting (as long as you're not suggesting that they are Soros puppets, and the puppeteer is actually a space lizard inside the body of a French politician).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/mattdurot/2022/04/20/president-zelensky-is-not...

You could ask the same about religion.  (Indeed I think it is the same as religion.)

FWIW I think some significant health benefits have been observed in regular churchgoers haven't there?  For many people it might have tangible benefits to their physical and mental health to find their 'tribe'.  (As long as it's a relatively harmless one, anyway, however nutty, and not an outright abusive cult or something.)

Paul McCartney & Bruce Springsteen spring to mind. But in general I take your point, if they are 50+ and doing those things it is probably hobby rather than income.

Well in a way that is obvious as is the statment that rich white women will be 50 plus or whatever else cateory you look at.Have you not figured out that its plain common sense that people as a rule get wealthier as they grow older as it takes time to accumlate thta wealth..People for example pay off their mortgages in their 50s and are immediatley alot wealthier.

Its hardly rocket science or a conspiracy.

Rod Stewart, Mick Jagger and a whole host of other  musicians Ozzy etc etc. .

Nor would Iexpect there to be active footballers at 50 plus.That is ridculous statement. But there are plenty of former footballers who invested wisel;y etc and do very well- Linekar springs to mind.

Yvon Chouniard is clearly wealthy and influential

You could indeed. The parallels are there, including the message that people should be afraid of something bigger than themselves - something without any apparent evidential basis but believed in largely because the rest of the tribe tell you that it's true, and believing in it apparently seems to confer a  level of enlightenment beyond that of non-believers.

You may be right about health benefits, but I'd counter that there almost certainly will be similar health benefits to be gained in other ways, ways that don't involve self delusion. Things like exercise, meditation, stamp collecting, trainspotting; anything in fact that engenders a sense of community and involvement.

David Lee Roth climbs, is (arguably) a musician and is a lot richer than me. 

As a self employed photographer I can confirm this complete and utter tripe. Socially isolated when every other days work depends on different families or small business. What a laugh, what an insult. Idiot. 

Citing Thierry Breton 30 Nov 2022:

https://twitter.com/ThierryBreton/status/1598015892457426944

I welcome @elonmusk's intent to get Twitter 2.0 ready for the #DSA Huge work ahead still — as Twitter will have to implement transparent user policies, significantly reinforce content moderation and tackle disinformation.

Looking forward to seeing progress in all these areas.

Explain where your credulity fails: Klaus Schwab, the WEF, OpenDemocracy, The Great Reset, Charles proclaiming the Great Reset, ???

Let's take a step back. The WEF did meet in Davos this year:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/gallery/2023/jan/19/the-world-economic...

Amazon are selling a book from Klaus Schwab named The Great Reset

https://www.amazon.co.uk/COVID-19-Great-Reset-Klaus-Schwab/dp/2940631123/re...

Charles is named as a speaker at a WEF event in 2020

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jun/03/pandemic-is-chance-to-reset...

Well knock me down with a feather.

Superficial work interactions are no substitute for long term work colleagues. Strangers don't tell you what they really think, they just smile and nod and later tell mates about the weird conversation they just had (see multiple examples up thread).

Yep, on a reasonably regular basis, but I'm fairly self aware about my idiocy and sufficiently inoculated against falling for YouTube bullshit.

Edit: perhaps reread my non-insulting, non vitriolic post and ask yourself why it struck such a nerve? Perhaps some part of you recognises that you've been gulled and it's easier to get all angry at strangers on the internet than address the actual issue.

Ok, half true was meant as a concept not as a precise mathematical measure. I also said from which perspective you look: ie we are still playing and fighting the great game of the last 200 years which russia is none too happy about, not least of all if you include US, UK and many other western powers landing troops in russia at the end of the first world war and in to the 20’s. So they tend to get a bit twitchy. And yes some elements of the Ukrainian forces can be described as nationalistic, if we are being charitable. I dont support russian aggression in any way shape or form but its not wholly fair to discount all that is said either. 

…who has significant long term relationships with professional colleagues and clients across the breadth of society, not just those who sit in the same yellow van as oneself. I’ve just come home from a couple of beers with two colleagues I’ve communicated on a daily basis with for 15 years. Direct competition? Yes. Truly valued friendships? Also yes. But yes, you’re right. Only those working for the same PAYE employer enjoy such things. The self employed only have ‘superficial work interactions’. 🙄

YouTube bullshit is one thing, taring vast swathes of society with the same brush is another. Typical UKC elitism. Idiot.

That's an oxymoron. I don't listen to and then pass on anyone who is demonstrably lying

You're taking this very personally, I was simply taring vast swathes of society with the same brush.

Hmmm, you find taring vast swathes of society with the same brush objectionable? Perhaps consider that my original reply to you consisted of me offering an alternate to your own taring of a vast swathe of society with the same brush. Put simply, you made sweeping generalisations about the retired and self employed, I offered an alternative explanation and you got all personally offended. 

If your world view is really that fragile, maybe consider the foundations you're basing that view on.

I think you’ve got me confused with someone else. I never mentioned the self employed (other than in defence following your taring) or retired. Sums you up nicely, I think. Confused. 

Edit: I’ll give you a clue. I’m not Lee Wood.

That rathe depends on your definition of "demonstrably" and what you accept has evidentiary value to proving / disproving someone's claims.  

Yep. All of that passes the credibility test. The fact that it's all all a huge coordinated plan to do whatever the loons seem to think is the ultimate plan, less so.

You are entirely correct, I did mix you up with Lee.

Which makes it even weirder that you got so personally offended at my sweeping generalisation. Don't worry mate, I'll put it down to your relative social isolation. Try and get out bit more, it'll do wonders for your sense of perspective.

Cool, no need to be coy, care to name some of these "influential spokespersons" then.

Lol. You spend all week in a van with a single other human right? Can’t talk openly with your ‘clientele’ because of professionalism? I’ll continue enjoying my interaction with international and national brands this week, and 3 private individual familial clients, two of which are long term (5+ years). That’s before the private socialisation with friends and family. Fancy a pint, if you’re so keen on folk getting out more? Can’t do Monday as I’m busy with social workers as I’m adopting…

I'll probably regret even asking this, but what do you think you are showing us here?

No, sorry. I'm team relief so I work regularly with around 20 other team mates in the sort of environment where you get to know each other very, very well.

Nope, someone starts telling me covid is spread by 5G, I'll tell them what I think. Challenging bullshit misconceptions in the realms of public health also being part of my duties.

Well done you.

You're really, really upset about this aren't you. You're certainly coming across as overly involved given the context.

Lee was making point about sceptics being more open to "alternate facts" because they're retired or self employed so not in thrall to the corporate dollar. I offered the alternative view that such people have less regular social contacts with people they have meaningful relationships with and who'll call them out if they smell bullshit.

20, that’s good. There’s usually 40 or so on my bread and butter gig. The same 40 more or less as I started out getting to know a good 15 years ago. Having shared the same bed, the same 3am alarm call, the same 4am check in, the same 1am finish, and every single possibility in between with.

Quite right, too.

Thank you. And yes, I am. Seeing as you’re quite keen on defending your stance that the self employed are somehow less socially involved than those on PAYE contracts. Which is still yet to be backed up with any other evidence than your own anecdote. 

Here's one for analysis, and maybe it's not an oxymoron ! Why are Are Blair & Hague calling for a new level of ID tracking when our overlords already have all the data they need ? Does this qualify as a conspiracy ? Citation:

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-64729442

Sir Tony Blair and Lord Hague have called for everyone in the UK to get digital ID cards as part of a "technological revolution".

In a report, the former Labour prime minister and Conservative leader argue that government records "are still based in a different era".

The idea of introducing ID cards has been controversial.

As PM, Sir Tony tried to introduce an ID card scheme but it was scrapped by the coalition government.

Opponents of identity cards have raised concerns about civil liberties and what they see as unnecessary data collection and intrusion by the state.

Oh Phil, Have a sit down and a nice cup of tea.

Hmmm. Didn't ask for a run down of the stuff that's currently twisting your melon. I asked who these "influential spokespersons" are that you're referring to.  Asked three times now I think.

I'm the last person in the world entitled to tell you to knock this pointless argument on the head (that would be hilariously pot/kettle) but nevertheless you probably should.  (Both of you.)

FWIW though, this is simply wrong.  It's about as wrong as it's possible to be, about anything.

I will, in waiting for your evidence that us social pariahs are somehow less valuable in the national conversation than you heroes.

Indeed it is wrong, deliberately obtuse and I’d be the first to admit it, and was rather the point in highlighting the extremity of their view on something they know little of. I know two folk work do/have worked as paramedics and they’d be disappointed in my expression there, but equally disappointed in Stitchplates wilful ignorance of the life of others.

Edit: Probably worth noting that I post here and everywhere on the internet as my own real name. Not some anonymous pseudonym, so what my clients may well read is well within their comfort zone on a professional level. If we want real world experience to count for anything, that is…

The short story: Musk announced an exposé of all censoring (cancelling, shadow banning) which had taken place during the pandemic - The Twitter Files. It concerns the 'de-amplification' of (alleged) right wing content at the instruction of US state actors. Musk facilitated access to selected journalists, and a lot of detailed info is now out in the open to show how pandemic politics were formed (in the US). Musk began to promise that he would cut all future censoring, allow Donald Trump back on etc - free speech for all.... while continuing to censor anything he found inappropriate. Breton began to lean on Musk, with the menace of chopping Twitter service in europe, unless he complied with EU misinformation censoring rules.

In conclusion - Musk cannot allow unconditional free speech on Twitter, as he is bound by multiple diverse constraints, including his own preferences.

Here's the Guardian summary:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/01/the-twitter-files-sho...

More flesh on this beast:

https://mercatornet.com/the-twitter-files-my-paranoia-has-been-vindicated/8...

Influential spokespersons - who shed the light on what is mistaken for conspiracy nonsense.

https://www.hurstpublishers.com/book/the-covid-consensus/

‘This rigorously researched book lifts the veil on the disastrous effects of lockdowns worldwide and raises more questions than it can answer given the continuing global crisis. It is a much-needed left-leaning critical intervention in the prevailing political consensus characterised by a totalitarian merging of Big Tech, Big Pharma, media corporations and government. Read it, weep (it is harrowing in parts), then read it again.’ — Left Lockdown Sceptics

I asked for "influential spokesperson". You provided a history professor and a journalist who's book has achieved an Amazon Best Sellers Rank of 252,783.

So not influential and don't appear to be speaking for anyone.

Because there is something in a certain type of politician that absolutely loves the idea of tracking everyone.

Some people think that if you can measure everything then everything will make sense. Some of them become politicians.

Yes including the majority of other mps (currently) hence why we dont have it.

Which is a bit of a problem for the conspiracy lot since given our current crop of mps it shouldnt be hard to blackmail/pay off enough of them.

So leaves us with the possibility either they are crap in which case why care or dont exist.

Sorry but that shows how powerful the secret elite are. They are hacking the best seller ranking and moving them down!

Prove me wrong!!!!

Have you considered the slim possibility that “Left Lockdown Skeptics” just might be a highly conflicted source to review a book in lockdown policies etc?

Just spitballing here….

No he didnt.

He fed some tame journalists a selected bunch of messages, not necessarily with context, and they ran with it and not always competently.

For example some of the Hunter Biden ones which were requested (note requested not demanded) to be taken down were nudes.

The most amusing thing was the republican nuts shouting about how it was treachery etc for the white house to demand stuff to be taken down whilst not noticing that a)Biden wasnt in the white house at the time and b)Trump who was had made similar requests.

To be fair they can be excused the latter since the "journalists" skipped quickly over that detail.

It's not just me then, I was wondering what us sheeple we're missing. 

I don't think Lee has grasped the first rule of conspiracy club. Blair and Hague openly calling for ID cards (which lots of countries, including the one I live in, already have) counts if they, you know, tell everyone. 

Likewise Musk isn't being leant on by shadowy EU types, he's just being told to comply with local laws if he wants to do business there.

Don't get me wrong, Musk's businesses have done some great things (I'm currently using Starlink and I drive a Tesla) but the guy is embarrassing when it comes to his 'libertarian' ideals and his level of understanding of world affairs. Thankfully the Twitter debacle (which caused me to deactivate my account last year that I'd had since 2009) is showing him for what he is but that means it's getting a little bit embarrassing driving around in one of his cars. 

I hired a Model-3 dual motor for a couple of weeks.  One of the worst cars I’ve driven.  Sure, it was quick, quicker than the MP4-12C I had for a couple of weeks.  But it didn’t handle as well as my trusty old 325d hardtop convertible, and the user interface was built for the PlayStation generation not the driving experience.  Example - driving through mottled shade the wipers kept turning on and dry scraping the screen.  I had to park up to try and turn them off as no physical controls. Find (eventually…) the options on the touchscreen - “auto - 1 - 2 - 3”, no “Off”.  F***ing idiot designers.  Musk is right at the core of the problem, it doesn’t have a decent physics based FTIR sensor for the auto wipers like a proper car, he’s forced the “cameras and AI only” paradigm for rain detection and allowed a thoroughly unready solution to go to market.  Forcing the “cameras and AI only” paradigm to driving control has killed people.  

I’m conflicted as I genuinely think he’s been a key thought leader for SpaceX in terms of making good - visionary really - design choices; the problem I think is that he did that by 100% immersing himself in the science and engineering for years with hyper focus, and he now thinks he can be that smart about anything else without the same commitment to learning.  That naivety combined with ultra wealth, a massive public following and a bent to the nuttier side of libertarian US politics is a disaster.

I've read similar comments from you before on this and it seems it left a bit of an impression. I must admit it just shows how different people can experience things differently. I have the dual motor Model Y which inside is basically the Model 3 and I'm really happy with the overall experience. 

Yes, the controls are a major change to what we've seen for the last 100 years in cars but really don't take much getting used to and are continually improving through software updates. You can buy after market physical knobs if you really want them (bluetooth stick on so apparently really simple) 

Handles fine considering it's a big, heavy car in my opinion. I don't go in for the blokey chin stroking talking about big ends and stuff, I just want my car to go where I point it and it does exactly that. My last car was a Land Rover discovery so maybe my expectations were lowered. Ultimately though it's a massive, practical family hatchback that is pleasurable to drive. 

I live up in the mountains so am surrounded by car commercial style switchbacks which I drive every day and I find the responsiveness (tbh an EV attribute in general) and pure acceleration can actually make it fun. 

The UI is something that took some getting used to but is now second nature and granted the windscreen wiper thing was a pain (although hasn't been an issue lately so might have been improved with OTA updates). 

If you rented I also believe you don't get access to the app, which means a lot of the remote features and personalisation options aren't open to you which is a large part of the experience IMHO. 

But I agree that Musk getting involved in design decisions is a bad thing. 

well done I had full confidence you would find objections

I meant 'influential among the sceptics' of course

I'm happy you see it that way. B & H so far have been prevented but the attempts will rumble on. The pandemic 'justified' digital passes. The banking crises are driving the issues of CBDC introduction. There are hence a lot of Blairs and Hagues itching to implement tracking and it will take one helluva lot of resistance to stop these trends.

Just tap the button on the end of the indicator stalk (light touch version of firing the window washers) and the wiper menu comes up exactly where you expect it (when you're used to it, but it appears nearest the driver which makes sense), then it's just a tap on the screen for the option you want. Pretty sure the is an 'off' now (wife is out in the car, can't check) but it can't be off during autopilot/cruise control (which would be irrelevant if you were parked up). 

Fog lights however are a different issue. Maybe spending more time in SF will make Musk think it's a priority to improve. 

I should separate my general rant on the UI from specific regressions such as auto wipers that work worse than those from the last 30 years and safety features that work worse than those of the last 15 years, both deriving from the decision to dump specific, tried and tested instruments in favour of a “cameras and AI only” system.  

I don’t really want an app to make my car usable.  Cars don’t need so many settings an app is the only way to change them.  My general rant really needs to extend to everything modern with computer screens, dashboards that light up in as many colours as a Christmas tree and so on.  A pox on the play station generation.

There was more than enough evidence to show white house pressure and manipulation for their intended agenda(s)

the laptop scenario was buried thus enabling Biden snr to get elected

the choice for overall lockdowns was taken and passed on largely to the whole world; without white house interference the sense of the Great Barrington Declaration would have insisted on focused protection for vulnerable groups ONLY

Sure, but rants are fun but it sets you down a path to only see the negative. I'm no fanboy, but I've done 20,000km in mine and on balance its not perfect but it vindicated my decision to buy one and I can see your frustration if you genuinely couldn't get on with it, but I just don't have the same issues. My last 3 cars before have all been high spec, brand new at the time so I think its a relatively valid comparison. Not perfect but we seem to have very different subjective (and perhaps objective, since your car was different and older) experiences of the same things.

I didn't say that it was necessary. I pointed out that rental Teslas tend to be locked down by the owner so the experience is different.

True they don't, but you seem to be suggesting there's no benefit. Again, I'm happy that I don't need keys, it just detects my phone. I'm happy I can manage the charging and HVAC remotely or back it into the garage without having to get in it (so I can close the door behind it). All the settings including my cruise control speed limit offsets, steering sensitivity, seat and mirror positions, temperature preferences and even my app sign ins are all personalised. True, not strictly necessary, but its nice to have and adds to the experience.

Why, they might be the ones that cure cancer or fix the climate crisis?

Trump was an appalling president, in so, so many ways - that's what enabled Biden to get elected.  Biden didn't win that election so much as Trump lost it, and not even through his politics but just the sheer incompetence.

The idea that it's his Whitehouse that pushed the idea of lockdowns on the world is a Trumpian inversion of the truth - he wanted anything but lockdowns and was all for the same shit the conspiracy theorists were pushing.

"It's just a sniffle, nothing to worry about.  It'll disappear when the weather warms up."  Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine, intravenous bleach and a lightbulb up the arse.  All about as sensible as the 'sense' of the Great Barrington bollocks.

You should tell everyone why you believe in this 'shite' - you have been supporting it and associated agendas hard since the pandemic broke

Your remaining objection for discussion of stakeholder capitalism is the OpenDemocracy evidence. The debate and potential acceptance of the W H O pandemic treaty is the essence of OpenDemocracy objections - greater corporate power interfering with democracy. The W H O already showed too willing to promote and meddle with bio security issues during pandemic years, and now they are (proposed) to be given MORE.

The W H O should be a neutral organisation representing national interests, but is corrupted by massive commercial interests of Big Pharma players and of course BMGF who all fund  W H O activities. Bill Gates is wetting himself to see this measure installed. The pandemic treaty will give W H O greater authority to inisist on lockdowns, masks and associated bio security tactics to safeguard global 'health'

(which really means - health of Big Pharma corporate players and their share holders of course !)

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/g7-leaders-to-agree-landmark-global-heal...

2023 update: The Pandemic Treaty is soon to be debated in parlement 17 April 2023

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-9550/

Bingo!

What on earth could you possibly object to in that treaty? It seems to be aimed at preventing pandemics in the first place and rapid development of vaccines so that, hopefully, we'd not get to the point where lockdowns with their collateral damage are needed.

[...] without white house interference the sense of the Great Barrington Declaration would have insisted on focused protection for vulnerable groups ONLY

This has been done to death. The great barrington declaration is absolute bullshit. If you believe in that you're well down the rabbit hole. Have you investigated where the money behind lockdown scepticism and climate change denial groups comes from?

Nobody likes lockdowns, not even those who proposed them, however they were the least worst option.

The problem Lee, is that conspiracy theories, far from unmasking and shining a light on dark, shadowy groups, actually do the bidding those that want to do more mundane, but far more dangerous work.

It's no surprise that Big Pharma spends a lot of money lobbying governments around the world. It's questionable, arguably wrong, but generally legal and isn't a plot to take over the world.

When you propagate clearly bonkers conspiracy theories, you allow those that are genuinely up to no good, to dismiss it as just another crackpot conspiracy theory therefore muddying the water. This is why Russia invests so much money on the troll farms and disseminating fake news - if you can't trust most of what you read or hear, why trust anything? And then we lose our shared, generally agreed view of reality (alternative facts anyone?).

I've read all your posts on this thread and I still genuinely don't understand what point you're trying to make other than you don't like ID cards and pharma companies made a lot of money during a global pandemic (really?). It's always a nod, nudge, wink and insinuation rather than just spitting it out.

A lesson for us all!

Which is?

Remember Biden wasnt in the white house at the time.

Trump was.

Are you seriously claiming they are in league together or are you just getting triggered as Musk and co hoped you would.

Have you actually read their thinking on that? It was a superb example of people struggling to know how to handle information given the previous controversies about hacked data.

Sorry what?

I've always had old cars until we bought a Leaf and I much prefer the Leaf to Tesla.  It's slower, it's slower to charge and it's lower range but it's such a good family car.  It's definitely not a high/low spec thing, more a grumpy old man thing, and the Tesla happens to be at the limit of what I dislike; plenty of other cars are drifting in that direction.

I'll admit a proper app is easier than using an ODB-II dongle and arcane settings.  You're right that there are benefits, but to me loosing physical, tactile controls in favour of insufficient automation is a hard no.  If the automation worked right - fine.  Good progress should be about adding benefits to things, not adding pain points as well.  

No, they're going to put touchscreens on everything until some flesh eating bacteria spreads via touchscreen contact and wipes us all out.

Just landed in Adelaide today - looks real up to now. Will get back to you with a definitive answer🙂

Have we learned nothing from the fate of the Golgafrinchans?

I'm confused as to the chain of events you're suggesting. At the time of the alleged suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop thing, Trump was President. Are you suggesting that it was pressure from Trump's White House that led to the suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop thing which in turn led to Biden's election? That seems a little perverse. 

Open your eyes! Biden is a time traveller.

jk

Wow! I'm impressed that you know so much more about what I think than I do myself. How do you do that?

My opinions can be summarised very simply: I follow the science, as confirmed by the appropriate national and internation bodies. Sure, there may be times when the science message is tainted by commercial interests, which is where independent scrutiny comes in, but I find it hard to believe that such distortions, when made by a major international body such as the WHO (as opposed to by a much more easily corruptible national body under threat of government defunding) amount to much more than a hardening or softening of advice, and certainly not a complete denial of scientific reality.

I think you probably should stick to expressing your own opinions rather than trying to second guess what mine or anyone else's might be and presenting your guesswork as fact.

just because it says “adelaide” doesn’t mean it actually is. Its like Croeso y Gymru. Im not certain the Welsh really mean that either. 

I'm loving this 'multi-strand' thread!  Wintertree discussing the UI-failings of Tesla, Darron trying to confirm whether Australia exists and LeeWood doing what LeeWood does...

UKC at its best!

You think you have. Why do you think the flight is so long? Its really to the moon where they have set up "Australia".

Any UKC forum user has had ample exposure to your agenda and evident conflict of interests

Wrong ! There is no independent scrutiny of any worth

https://www.bmj.com/content/377/bmj.o1538

From FDA to MHRA: are drug regulators for hire?

Patients and doctors expect drug regulators to provide an unbiased, rigorous assessment of investigational medicines before they hit the market. But do they have sufficient independence from the companies they are meant to regulate? Maryanne Demasi investigates

In 2005 in the UK, the House of Commons’ health committee evaluated the influence of the drug industry on health policy, including the Medicines and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency (MHRA).3 The committee was concerned that industry funding could lead the agency to “lose sight of the need to protect and promote public health above all else as it seeks to win fee income from the companies.” But nearly two decades on, little has changed, and industry funding of drug regulators has become the international norm.

We certainly don't! What we mean is 'Croeso i Gymru', 

You're quite right that there should be concerns about industry funding of health regulators. What does that have to do with Hunter Biden's laptop?

What about Big Car and Big Aerospace ?

Would that be the big car that fitted emissions dodging software and sat on more efficient engines for decades ?

Oh the shame 😭. Fair cop.  In my defence at least i got the feminine soft mutation correct (as Mrs Davies my GCSE teacher turns in her grave). 

To be fair CO2 does make you breathe. Which proves covid masks are healthy. 

On the subject of flat-earthers and Australia, this is an entertaining read:

https://www.cnet.com/culture/internet/the-bizarre-tale-of-the-australia-fla...

The spirit of Bruce Hooker still walks the corridors of UKC-towers! Hurrah! Go on Lee - just accuse John of being paid by Mossad and be done with it; it's what Bruce would have wanted.

Who was Bruce Hooker and when / why did he depart UKC ?? Was he cancelled

John has UN globalist dealings on his CV - seen somewhere, can't say more than that. IMHO anyone who supported lockdown restrictions on outdoor access had / has conflict of interest - as a climber. There were plenty of notable instances in the UK but France was worse.

They are both doing fine. Electric vehicles are a wet dream for Big Data

What can we do about it ? The tendency has only been worsening:

In Europe, industry fees funded 20% of the new EU-wide regulator, the European Medicines Agency (EMA), in 1995. By 2010 that had risen to 75%; today it is 89%.(2)

What does that have to do with Hunter Biden's laptop? Nothing. It relates to the Pandemic Treaty proposed by the World Health Organisation

There was a collective move to oust Trump. Search on the name James Baker who was Twitter legal officer. Twitter took it's orders from the white house later.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/us-politics/hunter-biden-twitter-files-ukra...

'Who is Hunter Biden & What are the Twitter Files'

Zurich and Singapore are on the way to the moon?!! Who new??

Incidentally I note that both the moon and Orion are upside down here. Facts relevant to the flat earth posts up thread.

For the record a large part of my job at the moment involves dealing with the UN, effectively around trying to implement the UN SDGs (sustainable development goals) in my sector. I generally think this would be a good thing, backed up by 20 years of experince with field observations and data gathering. I am also, as an aside, what one might typically call 'the left'. Are you telling me that all along I have been part of shadowy caball furthering the aims of the global capitalist elite? I really dont think I am

Infact this is what really annoys me about all this. In many ways I suspect yours and mine political views about addressing the very clear inequalities in society may be very similar and that this is driven by the vested interest of a few very rich people. This isnt a conspiracy, they write about what there doing weekly in the spectator or FT. This is news.  Insinuating rubbish that WEF and Bill gates invented covid or whatever plays directly into their hands and distracts from real geopolitical issues.

Why do you think climbers would be biased in favour of restricting access to outdoor space? Struggling to see the logic behind that.

That suggests massive incompetence. If there was a collective move on the part of White House officials to oust Trump, it seems odd that they should choose something so tangential as allegations regarding the laptop of Biden's son. It's hardly a compelling route to electoral victory. 

What?

Zurich isnt but have you looked where Singapore is on a "globe"? Just like Australia its on the moon

Precisely. Its a mirror image!

By whom?

The Trump white house tried and sometimes succeeded in getting stories removed.

The Biden campaign also tried and sometimes succeeded.

If you think John is a globalist agent plotting against your "truth mission" I guess you need to know that I worked for the UN environment programme for 6 months many years ago. I was basically a bag carrier for the head of mission investigating depleted uranium use by NATO in Kosovo, but I ended up being the deputy editor for final report. This mainly comprised of translating Swedish-scientist-English into, well, English. I'm still quite proud of the job the team did. I suspect you would think we were covering up the "truth" in the interests of Big-Somethingorother.

But there you go, UN, NATO, DU that's almost Con Theory bingo right there. 

OMG they have got to you...   The moon does not exist.  It's just a projection on the hollow Greater Earth which overvaults us

Greater ranges climbers worry me, they may stand up suddenly and stick their head through it.

https://i.pinimg.com/736x/1e/fe/a1/1efea14f316c4010c990e1a28446cbe6--setemb...

What?

Damn its like an onion. Every conspiracy theory has another layer of truth hidden behind it.

One of the more transparent problems with conspiracy believers is the absurd rational gymnastics they surely must have to undergo in order for their world view to even approach making sense. It's a bit like Creationists trying to interpret the bible in scientific terms. It simply doesn't work. But they're so incredibly clever that they can see a way for it to be true anyway, even if that means half of the people on the planet need to be involved in a cover up the size of the Pacific ocean. It really is quite the sociological phenomenon of our age.

I don't think it's actually that new. Any religious belief subjected to scientific enquiry over the last, say, 500 years, has been increasingly far fetched and improbable - whatever the inverse of Occam's Razor is. Basically religions are conspiracy theories in which we're all invited to participate.

And Big John now apparently

Not as clever as the smart majority who are the real cover-uppers - well done, have another pat on the back !

Pat on the back? We demand cold hard cash for our services to the shadowy elite!

Seriously man, WTAF are you talking about?

Edit for clarity - I'm genuinely confused. 

So far as I can tell the UN is not directly responsible for the most of the 'globalist' problems associated with the WEF. It has been criticized for not being touch enough - setting a compromised agenda to include good and bad. I believe the SDGs are well intentioned. My concern would be the relations between the UN and other global alliances such as the WEF or the WHO - wrapping up UN agendas to suit their own purposes. Alternatively the UN being coerced into promoting other's such agendas for the common good.

Here's a recent such development which appears to be an alliance between the UN & the WEF - to tackle disinformation. It hands power over to Big Tech actors. What could go wrong ?!

https://rwmalonemd.substack.com/p/we-own-the-science-and-the-world

'The thing is - when you listen to the full panel discussion linked above, the UN speaker -Ms. Fleming is not just saying that the UN is censoring speech on climate change. She also suggests that the UN with the WEF is censoring many scientific discussions, such as the topic of COVID-19, and the UN is in the process of setting up the tools to censor ALL misinformation that the UN deems unhelpful for a “stable, peaceful, harmonious and UNITED world". '

I could'nt get the sense of this whole paragraph. It is likely we have similar compassionate interests for our countrymen, persons in the still devloping countries, the environment and inequality. The detail is in how these issues are best addressed - there's always someone with a sub agenda ready to hijack a good cause. Otherwise agreed, any mis representation of well meaning persons or groups leads to confusion and creates a weakness exploitable by the vultures.

Don't worry most people are

What I'm trying to say, is (with a touch of sarcasm) that 'you' (ie. those that dismiss (my) concerns ) must be smarter than me/us (the sceptics remain in the minority)  simply because you are the majority.

From which ever side you take perspective, there is a massive effort to create a convincing and cohesive picture out of the seeming chaos to unpick

Pls see my previous comment on the UN (above). I'm quite certain that there are many good people with good intentions executing worthy deeds and missions under the UN guise. The problems eventuate up at the top of any power structure.

Lee, you don't even seem to realise that the WHO is a UN agency. I mean if you don't even know that, why should we take in the slightest bit seriously anything else that you are going on about?

I'm here to learn. I don't need to know the exact history of origins (but am interested !) - I can see how power structures spread their influence. What I tried to recognise (above) are the many positive attributes of UN raison d'être. Quite unlike - at this stage in world history - the W H O, WEF, & the BMGF which are collectively tarnished more blatantly with power and monopoly.  

Got this  thanks, 1945

If you want to learn then I recommend you  try reading better informed news and publications. Where on earth are you looking to get your views?

previous post, 5 mins before yours: wikipedia, Lancet; my posts are frequently source referenced which answers your question

where do you get yours ?

Why do you consistently write W H O for the WHO, but don't operate similar spacing for your other acronyms (e.g., W E F)? 

So  you subscribe to Lancet?

I loved the cherry picked 'evidence' plucked from The Lancet at the height of the covid disinformation wars. My favourite (much touted on social media) was actually a loony tunes letter written by a retired GP. But, you know, published in The Lancet so cast iron proof...

Good post.

I think you answered your earlier question here about why the flat earth conspiracy theory, and other 'bonkers' ones, exist.

There clearly are powerful people prepared to shape the world for their own interests at the expense of everyone and everything else, it would be naive to think otherwise.

Conspiracy theories are a useful distraction promoted by those who don't want too much scrutiny on their plans. For instance, LeeWood has brought up a concern that I share about the direction of travel which is eroding democracy by giving corporations more power over society, and democratic institutions less. This is usually discussed in terms of free trade, cutting red tape, etc.

The people who gain advantage from erosion of democracy will also gain advantage from reduced scrutiny.

It is clearly useful to people with hidden agendas to be able to dismiss people who raise concerns about the possible downsides of a proposal by lumping them in with flat earth conspiracy theorists.

It is also useful for them to distract people so that legitimate anger about what is being done to our society is diverted away from the powerful interests causing the harm and directed instead into tilting at windmills or even against the people who are actually trying to stop the harm.

The billionaires are powerful enough that they can control both the mainstream narrative and the popular counter narratives. I'm sure if you delve deep enough you will find billionaire funding for promotion of the flat earth theory and for most conspiracy theories.

Eh? We (well I) don't dismiss you concerns so much as not understand them, you aren't clearly articulating them.

The apparent chaos is mostly chaos.

jk

Even the then Lancet editor Richard Horton was exasperated, when the 'peer reviewed' H C Q research (Surgisphere) was rushed into print ... a few days before they were obliged to retract it. Who knows, a lot of people's lives might have been otherwise saved

it becomes searchable ie. as distinct from who; WEF & BMGF have no meaning in the rest of the english language

You get the same search results with WHO and W H O. The lizards are still going to find you!

Is that why you didn't know who the WHO were; that it is an agency of the UN, because your Google searches didn't find it?

No; first hit for me:

https://www.google.com/search?q=who

It's a shame that 'lizards' get so maligned ... on a climbing forum. Symblomatic dare-devil climbers with incredible natural talent

Try it in this forum page !

I see what you mean: the lizards have broken the Google search within UKC... 

Or they have the collective owner/employees of UKC in their scaly pockets

No point, the reset will do without cash

Well most of the rest of us are on their payroll so wouldnt make sense not to own the owners as well.

As in the UK's latest, greatest post-Braxit trade deal: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/mar/31/pacific-trade-deal-br...

In signing the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP), Britain has ditched environmental standards, signed up to terms that will undermine British farmers, and left us open to being sued by multinational corporations in secretive courts.

"Many years after the end of the war"?

War ended in 1945, first novel published 1950, second in 1953, film produced in 1956.

“Full truth”. Yes, books were written and films made but parts of the story remained secret until released in the last 20 years or so (can’t remember when exactly, just that a historian who was featured in a documentary stumbled across them in declassified war files).

Books have been written on Covid, but we don’t know half of what governments have been up to over the last 3 years. Countless war films from Iraq/Afghanistan but there’ll be plenty of skeletons hidden in closets for a long time yet. 

The bletchley park stuff is probably a better example. A truly impressive case of keeping stuff secret even with a reasonably large group.

Probably to the detriment of the UK since all that technology was binned off (aside from keeping a bit to spy on those countries we had donated enigma machines to).

Thanks for posting ! The subject of pesticide residues recently came up on this forum, with posters declaring that DEFRA would look after us; not any more !

'Britain still endorses the precautionary principle, which places the burden of proof on the producer of a product to demonstrate that it is safe. Most signatories to the Pacific trade deal do not, and there will be inevitable pressure to accept food containing pesticides that have been outlawed here'

Of course, the public can beat this by buying local and organic. Not including the uncaring 19 year old skateboard champion hooning around outside KFC, ears plugged to his smartphone and a baseball cap worn back to front and a few others

Yes, the conspiracies against us are done in the open but with little coverage and conspiracy theories are a tool to distract us from what is being done and to discredit those who do try to highlight the danger.

The worst part of these free trade agreements is the Investor State Dispute Settlement mechanism (ISDS) which allow private firms to sue democratic governments whenever those private firms feel that democratically produced laws and regulations represent an obstacle to their profits. This private litigation doesn't take place under the legitimate law of national jurisdictions but instead is done under a private arbitration structure carried out in secret by trade lawyers.

Under ISDS Canada had to pay Lone Pine Resources $250 million when it introduced a moratorium on fracking, Ecuador had to pay $2.4 billion to Occidental Petroleum when it annulled a contract after the company had violated a clause. Eco Oro is suing Colombia for $700 million following the decision of Colombia's Constitutional Court to broaden restrictions on mining in high mountain ecosystems.

Foreign corporations are being given a guarantee that they can ignore domestic legislation.

And this is being done to us without any opposition, Starmer's Labour have been very quiet about this and say that "it is encouraging that there has been progress in the CPTPP accession process."

I knew we'd get there in the end...

Can be an oversimplification of the issues. You can equally argue that the Canadian govt knew there was a contractual price to pay for banning fracking and that such arbitration agreements are a method to negotiate a result in light of general Canadian laws. and to be seen to follow legal principles. You could of course as a country completley override those principle on contracts, but then you start to be seen as autocratic and not a country to do business in.

Al;so it might be cheaper to settle that way...the price could have been $350 million if it had gone through the courts..that is why confidential arbitration is often used.

That's the issue at stake isn't it. Surely a government which derives it's legitimacy by democratic mandate has the right to make any law that its citizens want it to make. If people want fracking, or smoking, to be banned, or to protect their mountain ecosystems, or to increase the minimum wage, or to remove private healthcare from the NHS, then circumstances have changed and so be it. Why should there be a contractual price to pay?

In a just world, democracy should be sovereign over corporate interest, not the other way around.

Yes. On the other hand arbitration which you say is confidential is always confidential in legal cases otherwise it wiuld never be used. Also you do not list those disputes which the govt wins in those cases. You highlight the defeats not the successes. You also fail to recognise that having such strong legal systems reinforces democracy. 
 

so whilst I understand what you are saying there can be wider issues which can come into play