UKC

Climbing ropes stretch 10% under a static load, so 6m if you fall off at the top right next to your bomber gear.

I'm only tested to about 1.5m

Also heavy

massive rope drag beyond 30-40m

Handle badly 

I'm putting mine in the skip

In reply to John Kelly:

You might have a point.  But then one day you'll be climbing on 50m ropes and find yourself running out of rope on steep, technical ground,  just a few metres short of a bomber belay.   And then you'll think 60m ropes aren't so bad after all.

As with most things in life, it's just a balance of pros and cons.

In reply to John Kelly:

...or you could just lop 10m off the end to make 50m ropes and 10m of rope to make useful things like tethers or catapults from?

In reply to John Kelly:

Don't skip them, I'll get rid of them for you.

In reply to John Kelly:

Yes you'll boing 6m if you fall off at the top of a 60m pitch but I bet you'd have more problems on the same 60m pitch if your ropes were 50m long.  

In reply to PaulJepson:

I would never get there 

FWIW 

I'm looking at getting 15m ropes which will give me the 1.5m which I'm confident I can comfortably bounce down

In reply to John Kelly:

I'm confused, at the top of a 50m pitch on 50m ropes you'll fall 5 metres. Does the 1m difference really mean that much? Especially when the 50m won't reach up there anyway.

I think its also important to remember that the stretch is a slow deceleration due to the elasticity of the rope. It may be a 6m fall, but it is more gentle than a 1.5m stretch fall on 15m of rope.

In reply to John Kelly:

I'm not sure if your post is serious or not.

But, as I expect you've realised, two of your sentences are contradictory. Massive rope drag beyond 30-40m  negates the 10% rope stretch. You'd only achieve that if there was zero rope drag. 

I quite like my 60m rope, especially if I need to ab off. I don't "have" to climb 60m pitches with it, but it's very useful, as Sam W points out, if you need those extra metres to reach a bomber belay anchor.

Martin

In reply to John Kelly:

You'd also have a rubbish time with 50m ropes on a 60m abseil, which I think is one of the reasons people get them in the UK?

In reply to John Kelly:

I get 60's because I'll inevitably be chopping the battered ends after 6 months and ill still have 50m to play with.

Especially my sport rope.

In reply to John Kelly:

No no.... There's a "secret" trick.

If you buy a 60m and find it too long on all the traditional mountain routes (where a 50m is more than enough) you can chop 10m off one end - noting any middle marker will now wrong and you may have to re-mark it if you want that. The 10m can be used for rigging or even top roping small outcrops.

In reply to slawrence1001:

No it's not.

In reply to deacondeacon:

By the same reasoning I buy 80's for sport. 60 is now considered pretty short for sport. 80 is even best for indoors because you can chop the ends multiple time for a long life.

In reply to PaulJepson:

I used to have a pair of 60's for UK trad. Turns out that none of the routes I'd been on needed anything like that length of rope, for pitches or abseils. Most of my climbing is in the Lakes and a fair bit used to be in Snowdonia. I decided it was worth chopping 10m off them to save 20m of rope weight, space in the pack when carrying, coiling and uncoiling faff, and speedier belay changeovers.

No doubt that for some routes 2x60's are necessary, I just didn't find any. All my half ropes now are 50m max. Have a fair few 60m single ropes though and they work really well, allowing long pitch lengths and 30m abseils.

Pros and cons to everything though huh...

In reply to Sam W:

What 60s give you over 50s is the ability to get 10m further past the good belay you should have stopped at.

In reply to John Kelly:

We always used 60m 8.5mm double ropes for ice climbing, very useful having the extra length.  I wouldn't buy anything else but for rock I've not used longer than 50.

Cheers

Toby

In reply to Mark Eddy:

That's surprising! Everyone always says that The Lakes is where a 60m pair come into their own. I'm sorry to hear as I opted for 60m when getting some nice new ropes a few weeks ago for that very reason. I guess I can string pitches on long classic routes more easily at least. 

In reply to John Kelly:

The main reason to get 60m ropes is so that other climbers can't boast that their ropes are longer than yours!

In reply to CantClimbTom:

What you need to do is chop 5m off each end, middle mark stays where it is and puts an end to those embarrassing abseil gaffs 

In reply to John Kelly:

As far back as the 80s Mal Duff would buy 300m reels and cut 70m ropes to make it more difficult for people to repeat his routes! 80s quality wet repellancy and 40% more dry weight! 

The 20% more weight has been a decider for me so far although once you've tried carrying 100 or 150m of rescue rope up a hill that does seem insignificant.

In reply to PaulJepson:

I think Goat crag in Borrowdale needs 60's 

In reply to John Kelly:

I wish I had a 60m yesterady. I was up glencoe with a 40m and twice I had to dig a bucket seat on a steep slope to body belay my partner up. I'd say I was about 10-15m short of some good rock and boulders on both occasions. 

This was on the almost direct line up the front of SCNL (to the left of boomerang gully), an easy and 100% soloable line. It's a great area of the mountain for a practice day to brush up on ropework etc. Pops you out right at the summit, it's great.

You could always shorten the effective length of the rope by tying yourself a few metres in. Job done 👍😁

In reply to John Kelly:

As they say, it's not the length which matters it's what you do with it. I just bought 40m ropes because on multipitch routes in the UK it's pretty rare that rock pitches are longer than 30m and let's face it, how often do you ab off?

In reply to beardy mike:

Pretty regularly!

In reply to John Kelly:

I can think of a few places where the length is useful in getting to a decent belay .. eg some parts of Swanage.

In reply to Climbing Stew:

60m abseils? Really? I have 50m ropes too and very rarely find myself using all of the rope on an abseil. I mean I'm not in the mountains that often so maybe that's colouring my view of things but I'm just not sure that it happens that often... I can only think of one occasion whilst rock climbing recently when I did a 50m ab other than abroad in the Dolomites.

In reply to John Kelly:

All of these points are equally true of 50m ropes, except your 6m would be 5m. Did you mean to compare double ropes to triple rated singles? Or were you comparing thin doubles with standard doubles? Otherwise I struggle to understand your point. 

In reply to beardy mike:

It was in reply to your 40m ones, they'd be too short for a lot of abseils I do (and climbs).

In reply to Misha

No but  that got me googling, maybe a triple rated single is what i need, a lot less stretchy 

Turns out, counterintuitively, thin and standard doubles have very similar static elongation 

In reply to Climbing Stew:

Fair enough. If that's what you're doing you need them. I used to swear by 60s, just noticed I don't use it all that often. 

In reply to John Kelly:

Severak recent partners have only carried 60m ropes.  And then we've gone and done traf routes with 30m pitches.  I agree with Beardy Mike.  40m is enough for nany rock routes in the UK.  60m is more useful in winter when you're doing stuff in straight lines.

Anyway, i thought the first post was a troll.  They were bored.  Entirely legit..

In reply to DaveHK:

Gah. This chimed with me so much I actually shuddered a bit…

In reply to DaveHK:

Only if you ignore the golden rule: never climb past a good belay once half the rope is out.

In reply to John Kelly:

I like my 60m half ropes mainly because I only have to take one for grit stone cragging, it's plenty long enough doubled up if you tie into the middle, then take both for mountain/seacliff stuff 

In reply to beardy mike:

I think 50's are the most popular length for a reason. They work nearly all the time.

Of course 40's will work lots of places, like 30's would, and some times (rarely in my experience) you need 60's.

In reply to Robert Durran:

Maybe we should always belay when half the rope is used up, if you have a problem beyond that point self rescue becomes very interesting.

Argument for an even longer rope - NOOOO

In reply to John Kelly:

Tie a knot in the bight 10m from the end. When it gets to your belayer stop climbing. Then you don't have the extra drag/stretch to deal with. If it's an emergency you can untie it to get a bonus 10m extra range.

In reply to beardy mike:

note, this is in the winter climbing forum, not trad.

and indeed for winter climbs long abseils and also long leads are much more common than for rock climbing.

And then the regular fine-print... one factor defined the needed rope length is where you actually climb. Some times (historical routes), the pitches tend to be short, like 25 to 30m range.... but other locales with more modern routes might have have pitches that are over 50m ... And some routes might have shite belays, meaning that it might be actually advisable to link two pitches together to go from solid to solid belay... might be possible with a shorter rope or not. And some locales (but perhaps not in UK) can even have fixed rappel anchors/belays... and they might actually require a set lenght of rope.... I recall that that people quite often rap into Blood, Sweat and Frozen Tears (VIII 8) and also to others in the same gully... 

In reply to Dave Cundy:

ahem... this in winter forum... so what ever is valid for rock routes, might not be useful here...

In reply to Climbing Stew:

I mean yeah look, in winter I feel you. You're climbing on the slidey slidey and the line is straight, it totally makes sense. Even 60 when you get to the cornice at 50m... 

But in a rock context, unless you are linking pitches I rarely if ever see 50m pitches, or even 40m. And I get that linking pitches is a thing to do if you're happy running it out to avoid rope drag, I do it loads on big rock routes in the Dolomites. My 40m ropes I've bought for working with people. It means they don't have to carry as much weight to the crag, you're still getting a 40m abseil  which is plenty in 95% of cases and if you need to add an abseil, so be it. For your average day out pottering/puntering about its plenty...

In reply to beardy mike:

This is completely off-topic and niche but as someone who does a good amount of lead rope-solo, having the extra 10m-20m is nice to have, even on shorter pitches. I would personally carry a little bit of extra weight to have more versatility. Personal preference at the end of the day.

In reply to slawrence1001:

No rope drag though is there. And in a context where linking pitches makes masses of sense and where you're only carry one rope so it's not as weighty...

In reply to beardy mike:

Dinas Mot (particularly the East Wing)

In reply to HeMa:

I must admit that I read the title and didn't look at the forum. I guess my point in general is there is more than one way to be in the mountains and as a group we have tended to sometimes go for the more is more approach. More wires, more extenders, more cams. Sometimes it's really nice to strip it back and feel a bit more vulnerable...

In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

Is it a requirement? I'm pretty sure that when the routes were put up...

In reply to John Kelly:

Could a rope ever be modular? In that a connector of sorts (would have to be flexible/pliable) could allow you to add or subtract metres from the rope while maintaining all of the essential properties for climbing?

This must have been looked into, I would have thought?

In reply to DizzyVizion:

Beal do one, to connect the modular ropes you sort of use two barrel knots tied around opposing ends of the rope, msg me and i can send you a link

In reply to dunky:

Is it the Beal Escape?

If so, I understand it's use for abseiling. But I'm not sure if it could link 2 ropes to effectively make a single length to be used as normal through a belay device etc

In reply to JimR:

Wyndcliff is another - particularly as the trees nearest the edge are now frequently rotten or gone.

In reply to beardy mike:

You can make two abs.

In reply to John Kelly:

I would be sad if I couldn't do classic routes like Darius (E3 5c) because I only owned 50's (mind you I do own a pair of 30m ropes for grit).

In reply to ebdon:

Hah! My first encounter with Darius involved 45m ropes and three pitches!

In reply to Robert Durran:

4 likes for that nonsense... what are the forums coming to?

In reply to John Kelly:

60 m ropes can be a pest, untill you become a member of your local suspension club, they are soft on your skin and offer only slight chaffing around knotted areas. Also 60m would offer couples suspension opportunity, if the correct approach was used. 

In reply to slawrence1001:

…. don’t worry, most of the other replies are off topic.  

In reply to PaulJepson:

Indeed, you would fall 11m without a rope.

In reply to John Kelly:

I'm a big fan of 60s. Plenty of times I've reached belays on rope stretch, or just made it to the ground on an ab, avoiding needing to use a bit of a sketchy anchor.
 
One notable experience of using 60s on a route where you only needed 50s. We coreshot our rope on the first of nine abs down about 10m from the end, and could just make it down with the remaining undamaged rope without having to resort to any shenanigans. 

For most trad in the UK, especially south of the border, they are a bit too long, fair enough, but I wouldn't buy 50s for Scottish stuff or stuff abroad, really, just for flexibility. 

In reply to John Kelly:

Rubbish! Vital for run-out ice routes on the Ben.

In reply to Sam W:

Exactly! I know some routes on the Ben (The White Line comes to mind) are undergraded and may have no belays (i.e. 2 axes driven in an inch each and shitted underpants), but at least I got to the belay and I live to tell the tale. 

In reply to HeMa:

I hadn't picked up it was the Winter forum.  I see there's an icon for it at the top of the page.....

It's a fair cop guv...

In reply to John Kelly:

I'm using 70m 7.5mm half ropes on ice these days. Love the extra 10m vs 60s on the easier sections of routes where I can just keep going. Then the abseils that go even quicker. Wouldn't use 7.5mm on anything but ice though as not so hard wearing. They also need to be kept away from people with poor technique and a tendency to kick ropes when leading. 

In reply to Dave Cundy:

I wanted to point out that... since a lot of peeps were discussion about historical rock routes (where indeed 60m ropes might not make much sence... since the belays are often closer than 30m... heck often even shorter than 25m).

But if you pabble about rock climbing in winter forum, well it's like someone asks about changing the startermotor of their Tracktor in the farm equipment forum... and you jump in and start answering the question about your kitchen blender motors pros and cons... yes, it's about electrical motors and DIY... but there the similarities end.

Winter climbing is a different beast to rock climbing... yes, both are climbing, and often a rope is used. But routes, and other factors mean the needs of the equipment are vastly different...

I guess I should start jumping on the rock forum and point out to the multiple London Wall threads that actually I would think the an icetool with nicely wedge-shape pick-weights would be the optimal gear to ascend said climb... /sarcasm

In reply to Mr. Lee:

Ive got a couple of 7.5 50s, crazy light to carry and no rope drag, love em for mountain crags. 

In reply to DizzyVizion:

If you had a 50m rope with a male end and a female end you could joint its ends and make an infinity loop. This would provide as much rope as you’d ever want. For example three laps of the loop would give 150m of rope allowing many pitches to be run together (assuming you had a big enough rack of course).

In reply to JLS:

This is, of course, actually a thing - achieved by simply knotting the two ends together plus repeatedly short-fixing. A tagline generally gets around the huge rack requirement. Not sure whether 'infinity loop' is the normal term, though, or something else.

[Edit: although, again, this is moving away somewhat from the winter climbing context!]

Another edit: you're right, it is called the infinity loop - or, at least, the infinite loop:

https://www.pullharder.org/trip-reports/2012/02/22/the-infinite-loop-method...

I'm guessing, therefore, that you already know all this!

In reply to Sam W:

Good point.

I can remember being bloody glad of having that extra 10m on numerous occasions, none more so than a few years ago on Curved Ridge in winter when I only just had enough rope to reach a bomber rock belay. The relief was palpable as there were no decent belays on the top half of the pitch. Definitely worth the extra weight that day! 

In reply to John Kelly:

The irony being that you posted from Setesdal, and on most of the bolted summer routes there it's circa 55m between belays

In reply to John Kelly:

I wonder if a rope with stretchy 10m at either end and semi static in middle would work well to eliminate massive stretch on big runouts?

In reply to John Kelly:

20% more ore less rubbish than a 50m rope depending on your needs.

I used to buy posh 60s for winter climbing then relegate them to rock use once the dry treatment had worn away. A really good deal on a pair of 50s convinced me that these are better in most cases for my rock climbing.

With a modern, light pair of 50s you can impress your mate by volunteering to carry both ropes and give him the rack. He will be grateful of your generosity whilst carrying a heavier weight. Keep this quiet, oops.

60s for ice and winter mountaineering

50s for modern mixed

50s for rock

80 for euro sport

In reply to John Kelly:

I dont know where to start on this but your opening statement is trash "Climbing ropes stretch 10% under a static load" no they dont in general (ie what is the static load) . Also your reasoning is wrong, a small factor fall ona 50 meter rope at 50 meters will not see signifigant differences in rope stretch to the same distance above gear in a 60 meter rope with a fall at 60 meters. if you are taking a high factor fall at the limit of the ropes length 1 meter of rope stretch more in factor 2 fall is the least of your worries considering you climbed an extra 10 meters on the 60.

Generally speaking if a climb is reasonally protected the more rope out the safer a fall is as the lower factor the fall will be and the less force on the climber and gear. yes there is a small increased risk for hitting something, but overall its generally considered safer. Its why 60mn ropes are not more dangerous than 50 (or lets jsut say 59 )

In reply to John Kelly:

The static elongation figure records how much a rope stretches when loaded with an 80 kg weight (no fall involved).  UIAA requires less than 10% for full and twin ropes.  Most come in at around 8%.  Since there is no fall energy absorbed, this number is relevant to what the second experiences when they weight the rope but not what happens during leader falls.

If you climb to the bitter end of your 60m rope and then fall from 1m above your last pro, your fall factor (assuming very little system friction) is 2/60 =0.033.  If you fall from 1m above your last pro with a 50m rope, your fall factor is 2/50=0.04.  So the 2m fall at the end of the 50m rope has a higher fall factor, resulting in a higher peak load and, in fact, more stretch in the rope.  Practically speaking, with such small fall factors, I don't think one could distinguish between the two outcomes, but to the extent that there is a difference, it favors the longer rope and so invalidates that part of your post.

If you are getting a lot of rope drag at 30--40 m, then you'd have the same result with a 50 m rope and so the problem is probably pilot error, not rope length.

I don't know what "handle badly" is supposed to mean so can't comment one way or the other.

Of course, the extra 10m weighs more, so that's a consideration.  A 9.5mm rope typically weighs a touch less than 60 gm/m, so the extra 10m adds 600 gm or about 1.3 lbs.  An 8mm half rope is about 37 gm/m or 74 gm/m for the pair.  The extra 10 m adds 740 gm or about 1.6 lbs for the pair..

I've been climbing with a pair of 60m half ropes for many years.   I've also climbed a lot with 50m and 40m ropes BITD.  Most of the time, I would have been fine with 50m, but every now and then that extra 10m is the difference between a casual experience and an epic, so I'm happy to have the extra length available. I just about never have rope drag issues with half ropes and can't ascribe any handling problems to the extra 10m.

Here in the US, more and more people are switching to 70m ropes, which are increasingly necessary for lowering off sport climbs.  This seems to go along with a fad of combining pitches on trad climbs in the name of speed.  Although experienced climbers can make this work, I see a lot of folks getting into messes as a result of trying to stretch out their leads (not enough gear, no stance at the end of the rope, terrible communication, and nasty static elongation potential for the second). The net result is then significant time wasted rather than any time saved.

In reply to JLS:

When I worked in an outdoor centre we were always loosing the steel crab that  clipped onto the belay loop of each harness, so my mate had the brainwave of gluing them shut so they couldn’t be taken off and lost.