/ NEWS: Outdoor Climbing - Time to Put it on Hold
We are in unprecedented times, and just as every other member of the community, climbers must play their part. Though the good weather has finally arrived, and we feel the urge to get out as much as anyone, we at UKClimbing believe that all climbing should now cease, and we will be promoting that message loud and clear.
Well said and thank you. 2 weeks ago I was wondering if we could still run our club "intro to trad" trip next weekend and if our visit to Font at end of May would be OK. Now, even our trip to Lundy in September looks highly unlikely.
A neighbour who works at one of the big London hospitals described how they had set up 3 dedicated Covid wards which were filled to overflowing within a few days, and that was a week ago! There are more important things than our personal hobbies.
I am now resigned to the loss of the whole season in the interests of being a responsible member of society
Not a minute too soon judging by some of the comments on here, although I fear those people will carry on regardless.
Things have changed super quick in the last few weeks, but they could also change for the better as quickly - discovery of vaccine or super-drug combination that proves effective. The finest minds in medical research around the world are all racing each other to find solutions right now. Best not to expect too much, but reasons to be hopeful!
Hopefully that picture of you all together wasn't taken in recent days!!!
Well done UKC. Without doubt a responsible position to take.
I read that all was blasé in Italy before the lockdown. After that people complied and, this is the interesting bit, actually started to call out poor behaviour on the street.
I’m not one for confrontation but I think we on UKC should do the same on here. Call out irresponsibility for what it is - selfish and dangerous. Of course that has been happening but let’s ramp it up a bit. Shout down the naysayers.
A vaccine in 2020 looks very unlikely but some therapeutics might arrive.
> Things have changed super quick in the last few weeks, but they could also change for the better as quickly
I’m sorry Richard I know you are trying to be optimistic but that is simply not going to happen. Things are going to get much, much worse. Thousands are going to die. As far as I can see most experts agree that a usable vaccine on the scale required is a year away.
Frankly the sacrifices we are making now are designed to keep the death toll to thousands instead of hundreds of thousands.
Hope you stay well.
> Shout down the naysayers.
That is a disturbing attitude. However seriously the situation deserves to be taken, however strongly you may feel about how people should behave, it is better to persuade them on the strength of an argument than by shouting them down. That way lies hysteria and moral panic. There are subtler and far more effective ways to bring people around to your way of thinking. The situation is not yet so dire as to demand fear over reason.
By far the most persuasive people right now are being civil. If the case is robust, give reason a chance and don't resort to abuse.
We all need to look after our mental well-being in the near future.
I have read a lot of predictions from a lot of experts and the one caveat that seems constant is there are too many unknowns to know anything for sure. It seems likely to get worse before it gets better but beyond that the story is not yet written. We should plan (and adapt our behaviour) for the worst and hope for the best.
A well written, simple to understand article. One that everyone should take note of, accept and heed the advice.
Thank you UKC for making it clear and concise. I hope everyone listens to it and stays safe.
Thanks to UKC and the BMC for being clear and unambiguous while the government still prevaricates and contradicts itself.
Thanks to everyone at UKC for this message.
Big glasses of wine all round when we get to the other side, whenever that may be!
Take care all of you, stay safe.
PS, and that goes for everyone else,
Excellent advice, clearly put. Maybe you could offer your collective (but appropriately socially-distanced) inputs to No10's Head of Communications?
This is moving so fast and it was shocking to see the madness in North Wales and people posting on social media as if nothing had changed. I feel for the welsh locals, and to my friends in Scotland, this madness is heading your way.
And its not like seasonal flu. Healthy people are the 'super' carriers that turbo charge this virus through the country. Thousands, tens of thousands, of vulnerable people have flu jabs to protect them from flu. This virus is going to rip through the country and impact those vulnerable people and the NHS does not have the capacity for an event like this.
I'm not a scientist or statistician but you just have to see what happened in Italy and other countries to realise what is about to hit us is going to be rough.
As someone pointed out, previous generations were asked to go to war, we are being asked to avoid unnecessary travel. A few weeks personal inconvenience is a small price to pay in order to potentially save a life.
> A few weeks
This meme seems popular at the moment.
Nice one Alan and team... lets hope folk take notice...
Thank you for providing a clear lead. I hope that everyone on here follows it. Stay safe!!
To be clear. If there are fields and a hill directly behind my house are we saying I should not walk up it even though a) it does not involve travel (I get that bit) and b)I don't encounter other people (I get that bit) ? By saying "stay local" that would imply that it is OK and in line with Boris saying exercise is good. What is the consensus?
I would say use your common sense but unfortunately everyone's common sense leads them to widely different interpretations of the guidance. This is the problem with the Government's equivocal approach to the situation and has led UKC and other organisations to take the initialtive.
I would say that if on your 'walk' an accident simply requires you to limp home then go ahead. If it requires a call to MRT and an air ambulance, don't.
That seems a reasonable attitude but this thread has not finished yet and reason is not always enough
I'm just trying to illustrate that even seemingly straightforward advice is seldom straightforward.
> That seems a reasonable attitude but this thread has not finished yet and reason is not always enough
> I'm just trying to illustrate that even seemingly straightforward advice is seldom straightforward.
In fairness we probably don't need another thread on what colour the colour grey is. I think planetmarshall's rule of thumb is sound.
But what else are we going to do over the coming weeks if we don't dissect things down to the smallest detail?
Yes, I agree completely. I regret my last sentence. Perhaps talk down the naysayers would have been better😊.
Thank you UKC.
My personal point of view is that I want to be able to look back on this and I feel like I did what I could.
> Thank you UKC.
> My personal point of view is that I want to be able to look back on this and I feel like I did what I could.
And didn't do what I couldn't
Ha! Yes, exactly.
First human trials are starting in Watford with Dexamethazone and two HIV drugs.
Sorry to be a contrarian, just some evidence for more scientific minded people who like that sort of thing!
basically outdoors has the highest air recirculation rates
While we still don’t know how long it takes for coronavirus to clear from the air in a room, CDC studies on other pathogens show that clearance rate of airborne pathogens from the air in a room is, in part, determined by air flow rate — or how many “air changes per hour” occur in that room. The more ventilation that occurs, the less time it takes to remove airborne pathogens. For 99% of an airborne contaminant to be removed from a room, it takes 28 minutes of ventilation if there is the equivalent of 10 air changes in the room per hour. It takes more than two hours (138 minutes) to remove 99% of airborne pathogens if there are only two air changes in the room per hour.
Thats before we even start the argument for death rates vs flu (20000 in the US this season alone (less than corona for whole world)
this reminds me of the hand foot and mouth outbreak and how there ended up being no evidence for quarantine in that case
It certainly is another good case of being controlled by government using fear tactics !
The core of the argument is not about outdoor transmission though. It's about all of the other unnecessary contact you will come into by driving to a crag or the hills. It's the risk that you may need to call Mountain Rescue, who have better things to be doing at this time. It's the added risk of requiring NHS care if you do. It's also the fact that while you might be able to go climbing/walking and not come into contact with people, everyone doing just as they please means there will be lots of contacts. It may be lower risk than being in an indoor space frequented by others, but it's still adding risk we don't need.
> Sorry to be a contrarian, just some evidence for more scientific minded people who like that sort of thing!
I am scientifically minded, and am afraid your evidence leaves something to be desired. While the chances of spreading the virus outdoors are probably fairly low - the main impetus behind UKC and other organizations on this is coming from the increased pressure on rural health services (both Llanberis and Ogwen MRTs have attended incidents this weekend)
> Thats before we even start the argument for death rates vs flu (20000 in the US this season alone (less than corona for whole world)
This argument is a non-starter. The basic reproduction rate for flu is 1.4. R0 for the virus that causes COVID-19 is 3.
This means that after 10 interactions with Flu you would have infected 28 people.
After 10 interactions with SARS-CoV-2 you would have infected 59,000 people.
While 2% of those infected will probably die, a far larger proportion will need hospital treatment, hence the concern over ICU capacity.
This is not the Flu.
> But what else are we going to do over the coming weeks if we don't dissect things down to the smallest detail?
I'm sure we could find a row amongst us on how well Boris has/hasn't done! 😉
I reckon shutting down your logbook system would probably stop people climbing as almost everyone is now addicted to logging their routes. In fact it's probably the only reason why some people climb outside.
Just sayin' ;)
> I'm sure we could find a row amongst us on how well Boris has/hasn't done! 😉
I'm busily starting this particular online mass brawl right now.
> I'm busily starting this particular online mass brawl right now.
All over it.
> Ogwen MRTs have attended incidents this weekend)
Ogwen, one of the Lakes teams and one of the Peak teams have all been out on shouts today from what they've posted on their FB feeds! Just crazy.
> > Ogwen MRTs have attended incidents this weekend)
> Ogwen, one of the Lakes teams and one of the Peak teams have all been out on shouts today from what they've posted on their FB feeds! Just crazy.
I'll have to do some bellowing about this.
> Dear UKC.
> I reckon shutting down your logbook system would probably stop people climbing as almost everyone is now addicted to logging their routes. In fact it's probably the only reason why some people climb outside.
> Just sayin' ;)
Oh sorry, I see that is exactly what you have done. Bit slow me.
Actually it’s not what the gov has done that scares me - it’s Italy and Spain.
> this reminds me of the hand foot and mouth outbreak and how there ended up being no evidence for quarantine in that case
What's with this ... hand?
Since nobody's done it yet.
Calling you out- troll.
1/10 - Post a real profile, sort out your maths, medicine, reasoning and grammatical skills whilst you're at it.
Hand foot and mouth is a totally unrelated disease babies get.
Have you got a diversity officer? 😉
Personally I'm being controlled by a fear of my elderly at risk family members dying, some of whom stand no chance at all if they get it. I'd like to see my grandparents once more at least before they go. My mum. My wife's mum.
Government fear tactics? The government haven't brought this lockdown about half as fast as they should have done. You may not have noticed but the vast majority of people actually WANT this lockdown (certainly where I live). Its a selfish minority which we're seeing out there carrying on, behaving like little kiddies because their liberties have been temporarily revoked.
But maybe you're right. Maybe the overrun hospitals are all fake news and my 5-6 friends who are medical professionals on the front line are all in on the conspiracy.
honned is a former UK grit activist now resident in western USA. Perhaps he’s trolling but more likely he’s out of touch with life the UK. The conversation about climbing in the US is at about the same point as the UK was a week ago: gyms closing but many still think it’s fine to climb outside.
I don’t this was anything other than a completely crass comment. The conspiracy theorists will be out in force over the next few months.
Fantastic article: clear, concise and to the point. I am in total agreement.
This might be the wrong place to ask and I'm asking partly to help me and others in my situation to help think this through, but what are the opinions on driving 9 miles on very quiet roads to my favourite walks?
I'm really only asking this because of this sentence in the article: "For anyone who is walking in more remote areas that are local to them, we continue to ask them to stay well within their limits, to avoid any need to call on mountain rescue or other emergency services."
In case it gets mistaken, I'm not trying to be pedantic, I'm genuinely wondering whether or not my suggestion is a good idea. I have never once had to call on any mountain rescue and have a lot of experience in the UK and gnarlier places (Greenland/Iceland particularly), and I'm really only talking about gentle day walks in this instance. Though everyone says that about mountain rescue/emergency services until it happens to them.
I'm talking about a once a week sort of thing to blow the cobwebs away and get some fresh air. I'm very lucky to be able to work from home and also very lucky that I live within spitting distance of some beautiful outdoor places. Clearly, the answer might be that this is unnecessary and I'll have to give it a rest for a while. I'm sure others will say this too but I have to concentrate pretty hard for my work and actually find that time outside not only helps me recover some mental energy but move forwards in my thinking and solve problems etc. But, maybe it quite simply wouldn't be fair, and everyone could make excuses/justifications, and if everyone did it every day then there would be lots of unnecessary travel and contact.
I'm already thinking that I just go running/cycling from home and leave it at that. I'm only asking because it helps so much psychologically and it's very local/well well within comfort zone. Looking forward to your thoughts .
> ...although I fear those people will carry on regardless.
Thanks UKC. I think this WILL change almost everyone's behaviour, as they no longer have the justification of recent threads.
Personally (deep breath), I was thinking of a bit of easy bouldering within 2 miles of me. Put it on hold yesterday morning as I heard a change might be coming. Am now not gonna do it.
So hopefully, it will work in almost all cases. Closing logbooks etc backs this up. Good luck all of us.
> But, maybe it quite simply wouldn't be fair, and everyone could make excuses/justifications, and if everyone did it every day then there would be lots of unnecessary travel and contact.
Well said, but no "maybe" about it, I'm afraid.
In isolation, I don’t see any problem at all in what you’re saying. The problem is that, as we have seen over the last few days, there are a million others who also think that them going out alone will make no difference. You then become part of a very big problem. So in the interest of everyone, ot is just sensible for everyone to stay home or at least just take walks from your home.
Looking out of my window in my flat in London it seems like the government fear tactics are not working! Looks like life as normal, people walking about, walking their dog, shopping, lots of cars around...
The thing is, it's possible that none of those people are actually contravening government advice (assuming the shopping that they are doing is for essentials, that they're keeping 2 metre distance from others, not in groups larger than two, etc).
What has really hit home in the past few days is the irreconcilability of individual decisions which would, taken on their own, be easily justifiable, with their effects in physical spaces as densely populated as a city, and by extension Britain as a whole.
Weighing risk and consequence, and determining 'necessity', are pretty fraught considerations for everyone right now. The hyper-judgemental attitude of some on here, for example, to people going out in the hills at the weekend, over-simplifies the complexity of the situation. I went shopping for some essentials early this morning, and although that was 'necessary' and I took all reasonable precautions, the risk of virus transmission was greater by an order of magnitude than anything else I have done in the past week, because lots of other people were doing the same. It is evident that short of measures that are (unworkably?) draconian, no sweeping government protocols will be adequate to contain* this. So to minimise the impact we're still left as individuals to exercise 'common sense' as best we can, even though as we've seen, that doesn't scale very well either.
Everyone is adapting to weird circumstances, people are scared, and it's easy to assume the worst of others. I was instinctively trying to wrap this post up with some kind of conclusion, but I don't really have one.
*Edit: probably the wrong choice of word at this stage.
I think what you wrote works. 👍
Sounds a good summary. It is a shame that people on here feel the need to judge others by their own personal interpretation of the rules rather than listen to the detail (or not) of what was actually said last night by the government. I expect a lot of it is virtue signalling, but a lot seems also somehow more sinister.
If you follow the FB posts of the Mountain Rescue services then you will see the very public 'keyboard warrior' witch hunts directed towards anyone who has the misfortune to need assistance during this time. None of this I feel reflects particularly well on those who seek to pass judgement without knowing the full story. At times it feels pretty much like mob justice - a crowd baying for blood, not something we really need or that is particularly helpful during this or any other time.
People are sometimes stupid, people sometimes make mistakes and or make errors of judgement. People occasionally bite off more than they can chew, but do they really need to suffer an online barrage of abuse for it? What use does this serve except to alienate those people and make them feel worse than they already probably feel?
It's got to the point where I really wonder why the RNLI, Mountain Rescue etc. allow public comments on their news feed. The tirade of abusive and vile comments posted alongside the 'supposed outrage' of the poster following many rescues does not I feel do anyone any favours. It feels nothing short of bullying. Isn't it time we all learned to be nicer to one another, particularly online?
I think we need to set an example. I can see Froggatt Pinnacle from my kitchen window, and can walk there cross country for a bouldering session. However I’m not going to because it’s nit-pickingly taking the pi*s and would get seen as justification for others. We’re going to try and subsist from the local village shops as soon as the raiding parties from Sheffield and Manchester calm down.
Part virtue signalling and social conformity, part kneejerk disgust, partly that some people are just angry as hell or have poor emotional intelligence. All exacerbated by the road-rage effect of distance and relative anonymity. I guess these things are an expression of social traits that have always existed, but in contrast to a culture that is publicly civilised (most of the time), social media platforms are designed to put the ugliest of it out there like a window display.
> In isolation, I don’t see any problem at all in what you’re saying. The problem is that, as we have seen over the last few days, there are a million others who also think that them going out alone will make no difference. You then become part of a very big problem. So in the interest of everyone, ot is just sensible for everyone to stay home or at least just take walks from your home.
Thanks to the two who responded. You're both right, and I think I'd already pretty much worked that out for myself, but it definitely helped to get your responses. Please take this as a farewell to the fells for now: http://notesfromthenorth.mystrikingly.com/blog/sky-and-fell
I suspect that some ‘locals’ will still be going hill walking and climbing as their form of daily exercise and/or because they feel it is essential for their mental health. Inevitably, some will be driving relatively short distances to do so. I think as the weeks turn into months, there will be more such people out there as people’s moral resolve starts to crumble. That’s just human nature.
I refuse to judge such people, unless they are numpties who end up having some kind of accident.
Personally, living in central Birmingham and currently based in in the flatlands of East Anglia, I’m not going to be driving (or walking!) to any crags or hills. I don’t feel envious of those who can head out in the mountains from their back door or with a short drive, that’s just different life choices and there are pros and cons to everything - there’s something to be said for having a fairly dull but relatively secure office job in a large city right now, especially if you can do it from home.
> We’re going to try and subsist from the local village shops as soon as the raiding parties from Sheffield and Manchester calm down.
Did I misunderstand that - there have been raiding parties from Manchester and Sheffield in your village shops? Lordy, that sounds grim. :-/
> I think we need to set an example. I can see Froggatt Pinnacle from my kitchen window, and can walk there cross country for a bouldering session. However I’m not going to because it’s nit-pickingly taking the pi*s and would get seen as justification for others.
I think that's very principled of you.
It does just occur to me that I also have a crag within walking distance. It's not visible from anywhere and, what's even better, it's banned, so I'm very unlikely to meet anyone. What could possibly go wrong?
Well I'd argue that they probably shouldn't because it would seem massively hypocritical and takes the mick of the 'one type of exercise thing'. Speaking as someone who really can just walk (or more practically cycle/ run to a quiet crag. Contrary to the situation a couple of days ago I can't see anything in the letter or spirit of the current advice which would make climbing or hillwalking OK in any recognisable form. It also now seems obvious that the UK rules are simply behind the curve rather than sensible/ science led as they were initially presented.
> I'm already thinking that I just go running/cycling from home and leave it at that.
You've made the point here and elsewhere that "numpies" should not be climbing but the careful or local get a pass.
You are a careful climber who doesn't have accidents to my knowledge so it's understandable you should think like this. I like to think I'm a careful climber and did manage to avoid accidents for 33 years despite logging thousands of routes. Two summers ago I dislocated my shoulder on a route - no numptiness required - needing Mountain Rescue, air ambulance, and relocation under sedation in A+E. Last summer I unexpectedly slipped off a well-protected route, took a short but awkward fall, and fractured my wrist. Possibly I was a numpty but, more likely in my view, sh!t happens. I self-rescued on this occasion but still took up A+E time and resources.
This is easy for me to say as I'm locked-down in London but in my view is we should be avoiding all climbing until the NHS has enough slack to look after the inevitable accidents from numpties or otherwise.
I think you yourself have made the point though that as time goes on, if weeks become months, maintaining strict lockdown may begin to have consequences on people's wellbeing that deserve to be taken just as seriously as the virus. Obviously that is not the case yet - we've only just started - and only time will tell, but I think it would be a bitter irony for anyone professing concern for the public good simply to brush those concerns aside.
Yeah I did. I still have that concern. Not really about climbing but about being able to meet friends 1:1. I've had some pretty serious mental health problems including just last year and being able to see friends is just about the only thing that got me out of the other side of it. (Climbing is neither here nor there and has some negative effects as well as positive). I know several people in a similar boat who are also going to struggle with this and I'm worried about them. Accepting that someone can control who I can and can't see goes against pretty much my entire sense of right and wrong. Hence why I aggressively stuck my oar in on the other side of the argument. Changing my position and adopting the Total Social Isolation approach set out by Stuart and Tom V has involved adjusting my outlook on a lot of things. I'm also VERY familiar with OCD and some of their arguments seemed to me to be the sort of irrational ones involving long chains of "IF"s that I've learned to dismiss.
The way I'm rationalising it is that I'm doing it voluntarily to keep people safe. Which is true. I'm still concerned that isolating people will cause widespread harm especially to older people, many of whom would rather die than face 'social distancing' or 'self isolation'. However its a choice between bad and worse. I guess I also trusted the supposedly 'science led' advice the government was putting out and didn't see why people should listen to some angry voices in a forum instead. However it appears they were right and the government has now belatedly adopted this policy.
The situation in Italy also looks far worse than I'd accounted for. But also there are tentative hints (too early to be sure) that their lockdown may be starting to have an effect as we pass the 2 week mark. I suppose I just have to hope that after a couple of months things can be eased.
I agree with all of that, and to be clear I also was not talking exclusively about climbing.
It also left a bad taste in my mouth when people turned up in Snowdonia/ the Peak and local people walking/ climbing in the hills started complaining about other people walking/ climbing in the hills. I can't justify asking everyone else not to go climbing and yet still going myself.
> I agree with all of that, and to be clear I also was not talking exclusively about climbing.
Yeah I get that.
“good guys bad guys safe guys , chancers, eastern slant - Facebook you’re at it, honeypot , jughandle really ? Cmon 700m at it , let’s all know - don’t know , cmon much love all good cya stop it be safe”
Lambs and rockets sums it up every time
> Did I misunderstand that - there have been raiding parties from Manchester and Sheffield in your village shops? Lordy, that sounds grim. :-/
Yes, it seems to have settled down a bit, but people were doing what looked like a weekly supermarket shop.
Wow that's antisocial. I'm quite shocked.
Agree, accidents happen sometimes. I’m not saying I would go climbing myself, just making the observation that some other people probably would and I’m not going to judge them if they’re suitably experienced ‘locals’.
> Yeah I did. I still have that concern. Not really about climbing but about being able to meet friends 1:1. I've had some pretty serious mental health problems including just last year and being able to see friends is just about the only thing that got me out of the other side of it. (Climbing is neither here nor there and has some negative effects as well as positive). I know several people in a similar boat who are also going to struggle with this and I'm worried about them. Accepting that someone can control who I can and can't see goes against pretty much my entire sense of right and wrong. Hence why I aggressively stuck my oar in on the other side of the argument. Changing my position and adopting the Total Social Isolation approach set out by Stuart and Tom V has involved adjusting my outlook on a lot of things. I'm also VERY familiar with OCD and some of their arguments seemed to me to be the sort of irrational ones involving long chains of "IF"s that I've learned to dismiss.
> The way I'm rationalising it is that I'm doing it voluntarily to keep people safe. Which is true. I'm still concerned that isolating people will cause widespread harm especially to older people, many of whom would rather die than face 'social distancing' or 'self isolation'. However its a choice between bad and worse. I guess I also trusted the supposedly 'science led' advice the government was putting out and didn't see why people should listen to some angry voices in a forum instead. However it appears they were right and the government has now belatedly adopted this policy.
> The situation in Italy also looks far worse than I'd accounted for. But also there are tentative hints (too early to be sure) that their lockdown may be starting to have an effect as we pass the 2 week mark. I suppose I just have to hope that after a couple of months things can be eased.
Yesterday my wife got home from shift. Bit of a tough day and they're not really busy with the virus as such yet. (I use the phrase not really busy comparative to say London - containment units being built etc).
The nurses are being deployed elsewhere. Occupational Therapists are off sick or isolating so they can't order and sign out equipment to patients who should be discharged. My wife was on her own with neuro and respiratory patients who see the news, see that staff are off, and they feel like sitting ducks. Head injury does strange things to people. Anger is often an issue. It was yesterday. My wife was on her own most of the day.
They still haven't got any PPE and are still not being tested. Can you believe that? No kit, no PPE. There's mutterings about walk outs. Wow. What are you taught on first aid? Look out for number one. Clinical staff are told the same. But because of what they are and who they are they'll carry on.
I'm sorry to get all Bob Geldof at Live Aid. But this is happening now.
JHiley, staying in is a big deal for you. Probably in ways no one can understand apart from you. But know this. You are doing the right thing.
The staff in the hospitals really appreciate your effort. The ambulance crews who don't have to attend to a RTC and suit and boot up (or not, and going against protocol because someone has catastrophic injury). They appreciate that you knew it wasn't OK to drive out to go cragging, or running or whatever it is.
The government aren't getting it right. I am no fan of their politics or policies that's for sure. But maybe they could never get it right, who knows.
Of course seeing packed tube trains and buses full of people and people working on building sites is confusing. It'd be easy to ask 'but why are they allowed'? Short answer is they shouldn't. Do we think that it's a coincidence that hospitals are straining at the seams in London? That they're right now building makeshift units? No.
Because people going out and moving makes this worse. For everyone.
As I sit here and read this excellent article I can hear my neighbours arguing with 6 scaffolders about why they are working. Their response, "I'm self employed and this is essential work and i've got 30 years of experience." ( They also happen to be sharing a van)
Someone said the other day that these times will bring out the best in people. Really? It's very simple, stay in, protect yourself and the world around you. The hills, mountains and crags aren't going anywhere, they will still be there tomorrow and the next day.. Stay safe and don't become an ignorant scaffolder.
The scaffolders have been told by the government to go to work. Also they have been told by the government that if they don''t work they won't be getting any financial help. without work and financial help they won't be getting food on the table for their families or money for their rents to provide a roof over their heads.
I'm sure the ignorant scaffolders would love to be able to sit at home with their families, not risking exposing them to the virus, while getting government handouts to the tune of £2500 a month, but that's not on the plate.
The government's message for the ignorant scaffolders and self employed in general is "Go to work or let your family starve and go homeless"
> The nurses are being deployed elsewhere. Occupational Therapists are off sick or isolating so they can't order and sign out equipment to patients who should be discharged. My wife was on her own with neuro and respiratory patients who see the news, see that staff are off, and they feel like sitting ducks. Head injury does strange things to people. Anger is often an issue. It was yesterday. My wife was on her own most of the day.
Yeah that sounds grim. I'm also pretty familiar with the effects of head injuries.
> They still haven't got any PPE and are still not being tested. Can you believe that? No kit, no PPE. There's mutterings about walk outs. Wow. What are you taught on first aid? Look out for number one. Clinical staff are told the same. But because of what they are and who they are they'll carry on.
I know numerous people who almost definitely have the coronavirus, apparently from attending one event a couple of weeks ago. They've all gone from a cough/ fever through malaise/ muscle pain and loss of taste and smell in some cases to shortness of breath/ tiredness. None have been able to get tested apart from one from the same event who flew to Australia and tested positive there. I can't understand the testing situation in this country, especially if even the medical staff can't get them. It's beyond belief.
> JHiley, staying in is a big deal for you. Probably in ways no one can understand apart from you. But know this. You are doing the right thing.
The thing is. Despite all my initial moaning. For me it isn't actually that bad so far. I seem to be getting used to it if anything. Just slightly regretting giving up gaming and giving my brother my Xbox. someone is bringing us food tomorrow because we're in self isolation. When I get out of that I'll try to think of some ways to help.
100% agree. The self employed are being thrown under a bus right now by the government so I can't blame the scaffold folk for continuing to work. What's the other choice - allow their families to starve, mortgages unpaid and bills/debts racking up? It seems we are all in this together unless you're a self employed that is - in which case no one gives a sh*t!
Flu has killed 20,000 across the whole of the USA (population 327 million) this season (3-4 months).
Covid 19 has killed 7000 in basically only one region (Bergamo provice, population 1.2 million) of Italy in about 2 weeks. 3500 in about 1 week, mostly in Madrid. Chinese deaths nearly all occured in Wuhan (population 11 million) over a 2 week period.
Scaling up Bergamo deaths, that's 7000 deaths in a 2 week period in an area which is 272 times small than USA. So if we scaled that up to the USA that is theoretically 1.9 million deaths in a 2 week period. 2 weeks into the whole flu season, and we have 6 times the amount of weeks....
What's more, we know how to treat flu - we are very good at it. We have vaccines, and drugs that actually work. For this we have nothing.
This is not flu. I wish people would stop with this nonsense.
Agreed. I wonder how many people have got very ill because they were told 'it's just a flu'. Asside from the fact that coronaviruses and influenza viruses are different families. People who use flu as a smokescreen don't understand ratios either. If as many people caught this virus as had the flu then we would be in trouble.
Somebody even told me not to worry about the virus as 'more people have died falling down the stairs' (this was some time ago). There was a point in 1347 when the black death had killed fewer than scarlet fever so what was all the fuss about?
I live in Stoney Middleton, until sunday I was still a bit in denial. On sunday the outside world descended into the peak district. I drove past the playing field and there was someone having a bbq and there kids playing footie, couples with a blanket having a glass of wine etc. I could see the curbar gap parking was full and that other areas were rammed. Locals, especially the elderly are incensed and see it as dangerous activity directly endangering there lives. I can now see there point.
This eve I have taken a walk over the top of the village to eyam on my own and down past the bottom of the cliff....a couple were bouldering. I mentioned that maybe they should have consideration and f*ck off back from whence they came....don't think they took it to well
edit- on sunday horseshoe was stupid rammed, Monday not a soul so some good news
Closure of public footpaths and car parks by the Brecon Beacons Parks authority.
Yes, I live round the corner in Calver Sough. Coombs Dale was rammed with groups of millennials on bikes and grockles trying to pat the dog on Sunday. Today was much better on the dog walk. Shame Stoney Chippy has closed, but it’s for the best.
Yes, great job to these men, you have it really well.
To the bellends that were climbing at Cheyne Weares on Portland yesterday - well done you!
Not only going against government advice to Stay at Home, but climbing on a bird-restricted cliff that is clearly marked as so. The police and Raptor Association were both called out to deal with this.
I'm hoping that this was a mistaken interpretation by the Raptor guys on which bits of cliff are restricted, but the reports that the Peregrines were being disturbed by the climbers' presence implies that they were climbing where they shouldn't.
Local climbers have worked endlessly to prevent friction between ourselves and the general public/Police/Raptors/Natural England to maintain a good relationship. That's just been knocked back by several years.
If only the logbooks were still working - we might be able to work out who these muppets were.
I live in Llanberis, I'm a climber, I'm on the local MR team.
If I can stop climbing on crags that I can walk or cycle to in 10 minutes, i think everyone else can.
If my partner can continue to go to work as a doctor in the local hospital, putting herself (And therefore me) at significant risk, I reckon you can all stay at home for awhile.
If my mum, nearly 70 with an auto immune condition, can lock herself away for a few months, forgoing her usual bi weekly 15 mile ramble, then I think you could pass on your day trip to Wales.
You are not been asked to do much other than to stay at home. Quite simple really.
I'm not sure it's quite that simple - speaking to a 30 year old in a flatshare, who has asthma but otherwise healthy. Apparently he has been advised by email to self-isolate from his flat mates, in his small bedroom - 3-6 months or more? Would you do that? Or the couple, one who has dementia that take a 10 minute drive to a more secluded place to walk to avoid them trying to shake hands with everyone. Perhaps we could all stay at home, like my 87 year neighbour - she's taking up skipping!
Yep, yep, and yep again. The hills and crags and moors will all still be there when we get back to them, let's make sure we're all still here to get back. In the meantime there are some great ways to stay fit online, and I'm going to be making myself a fingerboard to try and keep in some kind of shape. Take care everyone, and take care of each other ... .... right, time for some hanging around on a fingerboard, or doorframe ...
> Or the couple, one who has dementia that take a 10 minute drive to a more secluded place to walk to avoid them trying to shake hands with everyone.
Yes okay because the are the exception. They are not the dickheads who are ignoring the restrictions.
I was always concerned that I might be made ill by a Chinese meal, but I didn't imagine it would be because someone thousands of miles away thought it was a good idea to eat civet cat or bats or reptiles, or whatever was the source for Covid-19. It is a great wake-up for the human race as next time, it might be 'VirusX', far more lethal to humans and just as contagious.
I live in a holiday area; the holiday homes are still occupied as they have been since the Friday the schools closed. The house behind us has 3 generations moved in for the duration from their homes in Hertfordshire. The 'holidaymakers' will create more pressure on our relatively small hospital, the rural health practices and local food supplies, so selfishness isn't limited to people going out hill-walking, it is unfortunately endemic.
Good article. Thanks for this. There will be varying views as to whether HMG should be making its advice more specific in this or that respect, but FWIW I'd rather have people who know the activity in question and its ins and outs (you guys) reaching a position and putting it out there rather than HMG doing it.
Thanks to MRTs and health workers, and their nearest and dearest. Hopefully, the self-employed scaffolders of this country now have less of a hobson's choice.
There's always one.
All locals are staying off the crags.
This couple came from Winchester apparently. Land owners are now closing car parks. Will they want to allow access after all this finishes?
We've now had reports of people at Cheyne Weares, The Cuttings and Hedbury.
I know how hard the locals work to put routes up, re-equip routes, make access paths etc.
The actions of a very few selfish climbers could destroy the decades of hard work of many dedicated climbers as well as all the other possible repercussions in these unique times.
Nothing we can do, I hope this outbreak will end soon. Stay home and be safe everyone.
> I was always concerned that I might be made ill by a Chinese meal, but I didn't imagine it would be because someone thousands of miles away thought it was a good idea to eat civet cat or bats or reptiles, or whatever was the source for Covid-19. It is a great wake-up for the human race as next time, it might be 'VirusX', far more lethal to humans and just as contagious.
> I live in a holiday area; the holiday homes are still occupied as they have been since the Friday the schools closed. The house behind us has 3 generations moved in for the duration from their homes in Hertfordshire. The 'holidaymakers' will create more pressure on our relatively small hospital, the rural health practices and local food supplies, so selfishness isn't limited to people going out hill-walking, it is unfortunately endemic.
I can't think what could possibly happen to people like that's possessions.
> The actions of a very few selfish climbers could destroy the decades of hard work of many dedicated climbers as well as all the other possible repercussions in these unique times.
I'd say it's already completely obvious that the selfishness and irresponsibility "we" have shown in the last couple of weeks - not all of us obviously, but the public perception won't be that nuanced - will poison access discussions for years to come.
We are getting quite unrelated to the original topic, but factory farmed "regular" animals are just as likely a source of "VirusX" as civets, or other wild animals. The majority of major red flagged flu viruses are generally from chicken farms.
Coronaviruses seem to come dis proportionally from wild animals such as bats though, for some reason bats are excellent incubators of coronaviruses. I think the wet markets are much than normal farming as well, due to the mixing of the animals and how their blood mingles on the chopping boards and in the drains etc. I'm guessing a bit for the second point but having all the wild animals together is known to encourage virus evolution.
Ok, I live in a medium sized town with a small number of places that people can go to directly from their homes for a walk. Currently these often narrow paths are mobbed with people trying to get some fresh air, passing close to each other, stopping for a chat etc. In bigger towns/cities I imagine the situation is worse.
How is it helping if we oblige everyone to exercise in such limited areas? The current narrow interpretation of what is reasonable in terms of walking seems to make about as much sense to me as the mistaken attempt to limit transmission on public transport by reducing services to a minimum and forcing people into the few buses and trains that are available
Not too far from where I live there are hundreds of paths crossing wide open moorland with nobody on them because we have been told not to drive to a place where we can walk.
So my question is this - if people were advised to limit car journeys to a few miles but were then able to walk in areas where they were not continuously encountering other people would this really be a bad thing?
Would such short car journeys really generate that many traffic accidents that led to hospital admissions? and would the number of walking related accidents necessarily be greater if the walks took place in a variety of locations? and most importantly would the impact of the few casualty admissions that might thereby occur really create a greater burden on the NHS than the higher level of face to face virus transmissions probably occurring right now because everyone is trying to get their exercise in the same few limited spaces?
There is logic to what you say. I live in a Peak district town as a fell runner. Did a typical route and did notice the paths around town were very crowded and nobody was to be seen away from them. I think everyone needs to be sensible regards the social distancing including (the police). The problem with areas like the peak, either everyone will turn up or no one will, so it's difficult. That said if I had young children I would probably opt to drive a short trip so they could cycle on a safe path. Rather than take them on a main road with lorries flying past. As said it's about being sensible and maintaining social distancing.
I think the problem isn't that what you say doesn't make sense - clearly it does - but that (some!) people would take the piss & start driving hundreds of miles again.
I'm occasionally driving a couple of miles to take the dogs out and get some exercise on the Manifold trail or the canal towpath. The lanes where I live, although pretty rural, are not safe and I'd be happy to explain this to anyone who asked me what I was doing.
> I think the problem isn't that what you say doesn't make sense - clearly it does - but that (some!) people would take the piss & start driving hundreds of miles again.
I think you're right, the Government's thinking is probably that there are too many muppets out there to expect sensible behaviour to prevail. Therefore a simple blanket ban is necessary, even if such a ban restricts reasonable activity which is not really going to endanger anyone.
A good example of this would be the prescription on angling. Now obviously a small venue hosting an angling competition would entail a lot of social contact and ought not to be happening. But a single individual stood in waders 10 metres out from the bank in a remote Scottish loch. If I wanted to illustrate self isolation I'd be pushed to think of a better example. But given the prescription of all angling, that person ought not to be there and ought to feel guilty if they are. Surely that's absurd?
And for me that's the problem with a lot of the comments on this thread, where panic appears to be driving rational thinking out the door to be replaced by rather obvious virtue signalling a a thinly disguised desire to find others to shame and blame.
So frankly I'm amazed when I see that some in the climbing community have joined the chorus of disapproval at the police drone images of 2 people walking apart from any others along Curbar Edge. Those two people thought they were acting responsibly by getting out and keeping themselves healthy and I'm inclined to agree that they probably were. And by any standards they didn't deserve to be painted as national villains in the popular media
And I think that as this crisis progresses, over weeks and probably months, these sort of anomalies are going to become an issue as people become increasingly frustrated with the constraints they are obliged to live under. And when some of the restrictions appear to have no reasonable basis people are going to start ignoring them. And the danger is that this disregard for the rules may then extend to many of the other restrictions which are reasonable and necessary.
So surely what is really needed now is some calm pragmatic thinking about what is and what isn't safe activity and how best to persuade people to behave safely. And the key word here is persuade.
That sounds like exceptionalism Dave... don't you have local footpaths? The key thing is to seen following government advice so lots of other people don't say 'whats good for the goose...' and start swamping beauty spots again and get us all stuck inside home as a result. As I see it, not climbing is more symbolic (for those who live close enough to walk to crags) as the experienced could cut risk right down, but neither the public nor police would understand.... the main factor on risk is to avoid ending up in A&E in an avoidable accident, which applies to any once-daily exercise we take (someone suggested running up and down stairs at home to exercise .... dangerous places stairs according to accident stats).
It's f*cking depressing the way some morons are driving.. we were passed on our daily walk yesterday by a van driver doing I'd guess 40 in a 20 zone at what felt like inches from the pavement curb.
On Colin's point, on the risk of transmission through proximity: the goverment information says it becomes significant when people are within 2m for 15 minutes. Occasionally passing closer than that in a footpath is not a big issue.. just stay as far apart as possible (wait in wider spots to pass etc). Having a quick chat at clearly a good bit more than 2m in the open air just isn't a real issue. I'd be worried more about gates and benches as hard transmission surfaces; or dogs being friendly.
Again for Colin..... we don't know how far those people drove to Curbar and the parking bay was full.
Maybe the speed limit needs dropping by half. Still much faster than walking, much safer than 30/50/60/70, and will get you a handful of miles away to somewhere quieter or local shops in a reasonable time.
> That sounds like exceptionalism Dave... don't you have local footpaths?
Not that go anywhere or that don't involve walking on the road for a mile. Actually, if I drive to the canal I can stop in the village shop on the way to buy some essential bread, so that's OK. Most days nobody leaves the property, so I'm comfortable that we're doing our bit.
Dont think that will have any effect - if someone is going to drive at 40 in a 20 zone, they clearly dont pay attention to speed limits anyway. And in anycase, if someone wants to drive lower than the limit, thats fine, its a limit not a target or compulsory speed.
A problem is that Curbar Edge isn’t an isolated quit place but a major honeypot with the car park normally rammed during nice weather. So if word got around that small number of people can get away with going there it would soon be overwhelmed with people in close proximity to each other. It’s not such a problem for people who have the opportunity to drive a short distance to somewhere not so well known to exercise and dog walk.
> So if word got around that small number of people can get away with going there it would soon be overwhelmed with people in close proximity to each other.
And this potential problem was helped in some way by the Derbyshire police publishing a video showing a small number of people going there and 'getting away with it' whilst causing no problem at all?
> I think you're right, the Government's thinking is probably that there are too many muppets out there to expect sensible behaviour to prevail. Therefore a simple blanket ban is necessary, even if such a ban restricts reasonable activity which is not really going to endanger anyone.
The government did try a nuanced approach that relied on people having 'common sense' and acting responsibly (and I was advocating one quite aggressively on here initially). But then everyone just crammed into the honeypot bits of Snowdonia etc. Then the "locals" started moaning that the city folk were allowed to do things they thought only they should be allowed to do and everything turned into a confused mess. The blanket measures do seem more effective.
Regarding the Curbar drone footage, most of the criticism I've seen appears to have been aimed at the police anyway.
It wasn’t just two people. Someone had moved the stones blocking the Curbar Gap car park entrance. There were numerous cars and vans in there, plus two white VW type campers parked down the hill and a bouldering team on Trackside. I could see the vans and climbers from my dog walk on the other side of the valley. The reason that there’s a blanket ban is, as you point out, probably because of muppets. Or tools.
None of this is helped by the media showing footage of walkers 3/4 mile apart walking along a quiet track in the middle of nowhere and in the next item showing people crammed together on the tube then conflating the two to illustrate a lack of social responsibility. I can't help but think that it would have been more effective to shut down the cities and leave the countryside more or less alone but also advise about keeping 2 metres apart. I just don't see how they can expect people to keep this up everywhere for 12 weeks.
> I can't help but think that it would have been more effective to shut down the cities and leave the countryside more or less alone but also advise about keeping 2 metres apart. I just don't see how they can expect people to keep this up everywhere for 12 weeks.
The trouble with that is where you draw the line and then police it.
Well you don't police it by polluting beauty spots and using drones to monitor people and encouraging people to snitch on others whilst allowing flights to continue bringing people in without testing and doing nothing to stop people congregating on tubes. Demonising ordinary people in the countryside who do seem to be practicing social distancing just does not appear to be sensible under these circumstances.
To be fair though if you're talking about the black dye in the pool of water, that pool is heavily polluted mine waste-water which does people serious harm in normal times. They dye it black every now and then anyway. Not disagreeing with your other points.
> A problem is that Curbar Edge isn’t an isolated quit place but a major honeypot with the car park normally rammed during nice weather. So if word got around that small number of people can get away with going there it would soon be overwhelmed with people in close proximity to each other.
Given that I was able to do that within the confines of a Tesco carpark with infinitely more people in it why do you suppose people can't do likewise in a carpark that leads out on to thousands of acres of moorland that (once out of the carpark) we have a right to roam freely across in pretty much any direction?
I think we all know where the virus transmission is more likely to be occurring.
Interesting legal view re C19
There is no limitation on how often a person may exercise or for how long. - There is no restriction as to where exercise might take place. It is unclear from the Regulations whether driving to a place of intended exercise is permitted or not5 . The exercise need not be ‘reasonable’ in type, quality, duration or location. It does not appear to be required that it be done as close to home as possible.
‘Social distancing’ is not a requirement under the Regulations, although it is government advice. Although the Government has asked the public to conduct ‘social distancing’, the only relevant restriction on outdoor exercise is the prohibition on ‘gatherings’ of more than two people not from the same household under Reg.7 of the 2020 Regulations. The consequence is that your household may hold an informal game of football in public, but your family (if from more than one household) may not.
Thanks for the insight.
Although, we should really be taking the guidance in the spirit that it is meant. Driving from London the Stanage to solo all day is probably not in the spirit of things.
Absolutely but it highlights the weakness of nudge and insufficient initial clarity..and ongoing clarity to be honest. There will be additional guidance for authorities, landowners and the public tomorrow probably but you'll be hard pressed to find it.
Certainly. It's exceedingly vague!
Surely cycling on the road is more dangerous than bouldering?
(sorry if this has already been brought up)
I’m a self employed landscape gardener and my works dried up for the time being with all this coronavirus nightmare!
As it stands I will get nowt from the gov because of the short period I have been self employed! Some customers have asked me to continue respecting social distancing! But the moral question and problems I have is people like yourself judging us for being out in the first place!
Essential works? Is it essential to continue to pay the and support the local economy? Buy meat from the butcher? Pay the milk man? Pay the mortgage?! Some of us can’t just sit at home judging others from behind a keyboard and let our employer keep our bank balance ticking over pal!!
When your roof blows off next winter don’t go ringing them ignorant scaffolding lads up!
It would be brilliant to sit at home and enjoy my 80% of £2500 but it ain’t an option so do us a favour an pipe down pal!
> Surely cycling on the road is more dangerous than bouldering?
> (sorry if this has already been brought up)
Normally that may well be true, but at the moment (and round here) there are very few cars on the road and they generally seem to be driven fairly sedately. Runners, cyclists, families, couples (of all ages), lost dogs (all breeds) and general wildlife outnumber cars massively.
Ok well I should have written 'cycling just as dangerous and unnecessary as easy, low bouldering."
> Ok well I should have written 'cycling just as dangerous and unnecessary as easy, low bouldering."
Unnecessary? Perhaps, but at least it's explicitly listed as an acceptable form of daily exercise in the government advice.
Nothing wrong with a bit of easy, low bouldering if it's a good landing, you've got pads and maybe even a member of your household to spot you too (and assuming you have a very local crag to climb on). Certainly no more dangerous than what some obsessive climbers seem to be getting up to at home, and in some cases even safer. I await the spate of A&E admissions from shoddily built home walls, incorrectly installed pull-up bars and various bits of masonry falling off house exteriors that were not designed for climbing in the first place.
> The government did try a nuanced approach that relied on people having 'common sense' and acting responsibly..............
Good luck with that!! What percentage of people will that work with? 90%? 99%? Anyway NOT 100%, in my opinion
With infection control, rules have to be closely adhered to. There have been many examples (MRSA bacteraemia is a good one - everyone knew what they should do) where people know what to do, interpret things flexibly and with comonsense and the problem continues until rules are imposed with significant compulsion.
People trying to look for ways round the rules are adding to the problem. There is talk about science and need for testing. Testing isn't an end in itself, and only works with aggressive isolation - it isn't an alternative. (and even the best current tests aren't very good... I rather suspect it is just the isolation bit that works...)
Worth reading Nick Kempe's piece here http://parkswatchscotland.co.uk/2020/04/01/the-corona-crisis-the-panic-and-the-removal-of-fundamental-human-rights/ although more relevant to Scotland.
It depends what we want. Either we go for harsh seeming restrictions of we allow hospitals to be swamped. The lessons are that flexible rules don't work.
Given the severity of the situation all options do need to be evalluated. Allowing hospitals to be swamped is an option, with both immediate (deaths) and long term consequences (mental health), and weighed against economic impacts. I suspect people talking about fundamental rights relating to access and mobility haven't grasped quite what having halth care go over this cliff edge will mean (access to life support will be severely curtailed) (and it could be really brutal).
There is no easy painfree answer, but nitpicking about the current rules is not helping.
And if other climbers are sharing holds? Maybe on different days. We still don't know whow long it survives on surfaces.
You know there is no proof yet either way whether the isolation or the herd immunity strategy is the correct way to deal with this. We in the UK have employed sweeping lock-downs where as Sweden have gone for a more relaxed approach, protecting jobs and livelihoods and allowing their economy to function is as normal a way as possible. Only time will tell which, if either, is the best and least damaging long term approach.
There are some interesting counter arguments to our governments current strategy at the moment. It is possible that our government, bowing down to the mass panic fueled by media hysteria, have fundamentally done totally the wrong thing here for our long term health and prosperity as a nation? Whatever you think this, for the first 10 minutes, is very much worth a listen anyway:
My concern around climbing is not the possibility of catching Covid 19 whilst out at the crag, or the unlikely event of injury and rescue. It's the perception of the public that matters at the moment.
The public and the media perception is that climbing is a fundamentally dangerous and sometimes reckless activity. We will not be able to educate them otherwise, especially not at the moment.
Therefore by being seen to still be climbing throughout this crisis, we risk reinforcing this perception. We risk being seen as selfish, unsympathetic to the common goal, and would appear to be sticking two fingers up to those members of the public who are taking the isolation message a little more seriously. This will do us no favours in the long term as a community with regards to crag access.
As well as climbing, I surf and I kitesurf. We have no similar body influencing these sports in the way that climbing has the BMC. Regardless most surfers and kiters have knocked it on the head at the moment, even those who live right next to the beach. Again, it's nothing to do with the danger or the risk involved - it's the public perception of our sport that matters right now.
Also an interpretation in the Guardian that 'one form of exercise' does not limit the number of times; just the type. Someone really didn't thin very hard about this!
I agree but I wouldn't attribute much of this to 'media hype'. This virus in genuinely nasty because of it's very high hospitalisation rate. The ice-rink used for cold-storage of bodies in Madrid is already full. People try and play it down by saying those people would die soon anyway (not true for co-morbidities like type 2 diabetes or hypertension) but you can't get away from the fact that things are serious.
In Jan when Wuhan went into lockdown people in the UK were saying 'it's all just media hype don't worry it's just flu' which was clearly wrong. I suppose with the media it's a bit like the boy who cried wolf. They hype up everything so when something serious is approaching we assume it's just hype.
Sweden's approach is interesting! Maybe they have the hospitals to be able to afford such a strategy.
>The ice-rink used for cold-storage of bodies in Madrid is already full.
Here is a source for it being used https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/coronavirus-spain-madrid-ice-rink-morgue-death-toll-china-covid-19-a9424541.html
I'm sure I read it was full but I can't find it (busted!) I'll edit my post if it's not too late.
> You know there is no proof yet either way whether the isolation or the herd immunity strategy is the correct way to deal with this. We in the UK have employed sweeping lock-downs where as Sweden have gone for a more relaxed approach, protecting jobs and livelihoods and allowing their economy to function is as normal a way as possible. Only time will tell which, if either, is the best and least damaging long term approach.
Interestingly, Sweden has had a huge spike in the last day of 10% and all numbers may not yet be recorded so it could be that Sweden's cases were lagging and that the exponential nature of the growth is about to hit, which would determine that they were incorrect. It will be interesting to see if this becomes a bit more in line with the rest of the West or whether being relaxed has in fact had the opposite effect. Medical expertise says that isolation/separation of people is the right approach.
Also, and someone might have to correct me here, isnt Sweden much less dense that many other western nations. Its quite a big country (much of it very cold of course) and has a fraction of the population of the likes of France, Germany, Spain Italy and the UK.
It is very much less dense on average, but as you say lots of it is very cold and nobody lives there. Most of the population lives in a smallish number of towns / cities, so i dont really see them as being spread much differently to other countries.
Summo - you're in Sweden aren't you - you'd be best at answering this.
Regarding the easy bouldering...
Elfyn Jones, BMC access officer and member of Llanberis Mountain Rescue said two weeks ago
“There's been a lot of talk about justifying why we can still climb or hill-walk safely within our capabilities and that, somehow, we can do this without affecting anyone else or impacting spread of the virus. The simple fact is - we can't. Please stop.”
just advice I suppose , personally I’m sticking to it. Any sort of climbing and trying to justify it to myself right now would feel like bad mountain JuJu
We should probably stop everything else dangerous too, like DIY or training at home or using sharp knives.
1) talking about 'proof' probably means you have little useful to add (like people who want proof about global warming).
2) the herd immunity was always going to head into isolation..the two strategies are really all part of the same process, and the dichotomy is false.
2a) In away, much of the media hysteria is antagonistic to lock down.
3) Yes, Sweden seems in a unique place...a bit like the uk two weeks ago. The demograpic is different, it is a long thin low density country surrounded by lockdowns, they have started preps a bit better perhaps, but they are an extreme outlier in terms of policy...time will tell how wise this is and how strong their stomachs are
4) Of course there are counter arguments..can we stomach the fall out...the US has blinked. (and like global warming & brexit, by the time the answer is clear it is too late).
5) The restriction on climbing is principally about movement and gahering. I don't think people are seeing climbing as high risk...it gets lumped in with walking a long a track, but if the majority of the public see you they will certainly think poorly of climbers.
> 5) The restriction on climbing is principally about movement and gahering. I don't think people are seeing climbing as high risk...it gets lumped in with walking a long a track, but if the majority of the public see you they will certainly think poorly of climbers.
Not, if like the majority, you have seen Free Solo. Rock climbing is definitely viewed by most people as risky.
That might be so but if we accept that view then we only reinforce it.
I was really thinking in context of the covid regulations... I think the nuances of risky behaviour will be subsumed by our simple presence... we can affect the narrative about risk, by lloking at the other important reasons (and respecting what teams like Dundonnell (I think) described, without excessive debate). Certainly in the Dales there is major anxiety in many of the villages about visitors.
Also, if you hurt yourself doing DIY or cooking or something at home, you're just a numpty. If you hurt yourself climbing when climbers have been told not to, you're giving a bad rep to a reasonably small community.
There's lots of people out doing things they shouldn't be (e.g. driving like a plonker on the empty roads) but let's make sure that climbing sets a good example.
The demographic of the Dales is relatively older, with pockets of severe deprivation alongside some of the wealthiest postcodes in the UK. Prior to the ban on touristing, climbing/walking visits were being combined with a cheeky tour of the shops to stock up. There’s now enough in the shops to run a telephone delivery service for the elderly/quarantined, run by a brilliant group of volunteers.
On the subject of Sweden (and the NL), worldometer has a column on per capita deaths now. On this data, NL deaths per capita are double ours and Sweden 3/4 despite their first death being nearly a week later. Death rates flattening due to government lock-down won't feed through into death data for about 3 weeks (new infection to early deaths)...this is from around 10th April in the UK.
Eh? Yes, visitors brought wealth in wit them. Yes there is good community and resources.
But, certainly in the places I'm familiar with, there has been considerable ire directed towards outside visitors. In some places there is conflict with some residents who feels this is an excessive reaction. Going climbing near these places will not be welcome.
> That might be so but if we accept that view then we only reinforce it.
There's probably a place for challenging the view that climbing is a high-risk activity but now probably isn't the time.
Tonight I've been told the Yorkshire air ambulance has been told to stand down as staff are being used on the frontline. So please don't come to the Dale's, even I am staying in.
Also police seem to be very pro active tonight in preparation for the weekend, people moved on from Malham that have travelled
My 58 minute cycle ride yesterday took me up past Shillito Woods (sort of behind, across the moor from Birchen Edge for those who don't know the area. There were a few cars parked and I could see a few people walking. Someone had gone and put "Why are you here today?" A4 flyers under the parked cars' windscreen wipers. There was information about the government's advice on covid 19 from what I could see - I wasn't going to go and touch them! I don't know if there was any info about who had made the flyers, (local farmer? local resident - (very few houses near there actually)? Some from National Trust or Derbyshire Wildlife Trust representative? But the headline was huge so the message quite obvious.
> In reply to all.
> On the subject of Sweden (and the NL), worldometer has a column on per capita deaths now. On this data, NL deaths per capita are double ours and Sweden 3/4 despite their first death being nearly a week later.
Yes, but death rates don't really scale for small populations - especially if that population is nearly all in a few largish cities. One outbreak in the middle of Stockholm can really skew the national statistics.
Sweden is not that small (10m+) and most people live in the biggest cities (like the UK). We will see in a few weeks how well their planning works for them but currently it doesn't look good compared to Norway (1st death separated by a day).
Someone on the other channel posted what is happening on the ground in NL ( only slightly laxer than the UK and good population compliance) . Plus also on the other channel they posted google data showing Sweden is much worse in terms of the actual movement changes based on social distancing (cf big changes in NL, which itself was not far behind UK changes)
Police are putting these on. Also around strange/Burbage area
Yeah. This is also the first recorded coronavirus pandemic. (Yes there have been outbreaks of other coronavirus) but flu viruses have basically caused the majority of pandemics outside of the Plague.
Also, it is stating to look like the wet market itself wasn't the original human/animal event source, but rather someone working at the market. There is now evidence of covid19 from November- long before the seafood market outbreak. I also read the other day that recently people have been intensively farming pangolins rather than catching them in the wild - drastically raising the prospect of illness spread.
I think its also worth noting that there are wet markets across East Asia, and there is not generally a huge problem with outbreaks.
Intensive Farming is by far a greater issue for viral sharing amongst animals than any wet market, where animals are only kept for short periods. Why do you think they jack the things fully of antibiotics all the time?
Do you have a source for it not coming from the wet market? Do you have a source for it having started earlier? And a source for intensive farming being worse for viral transmission? Antibiotic use is nothing to do with viruses as antibiotics do nothing against viruses.
Here are some sources for what I said (2 mins on google for these, there is a lot more out there).
> Intensive Farming is by far a greater issue for viral sharing amongst animals than any wet market, where animals are only kept for short periods. Why do you think they jack the things fully of antibiotics all the time?
There are lots of problems with intensive farming, but this isn't one of them. Intensive farming favours diseases that stay within a single species. Many highly intensive farms (especially chickens and pigs) will have stringent control measures including workers showering and completely changing all clothing before entering the facility (i.e. a bit like a swimming pool changing room - you can't access the farm any other way).
The problem with wet markets is the presence in very close proximity of many different species from different orders (birds, reptiles, various mammals incl pigs and bats etc) encouraging the movement of viruses between species which then promotes the development of viable mutated strains which may (or may not) be more pathogenic to humans.
> Do you have a source for it not coming from the wet market? Do you have a source for it having started earlier?
Red Rover might be referring to this one:
At a quick glance I did not see a contradiction of your sources with this older science article. The wet market was probably the first hot spot, but the virus may possibly have jumped to humans before it came to the market.
From further above:
> but I didn't imagine it would be because someone thousands of miles away thought it was a good idea to eat civet cat or bats or reptiles, or whatever was the source for Covid-19.
In the light of this article, it is just an assumption that the virus came through the consumption of bats or other strange wildlife as food (it is of course possible and those of us who like me did not know before have now learned that eating bats comes at a particularly high risk). Other routes are possible.
Just to widen the horizon, think about the risk to climbers climbing next to the entrance of a bat cave.
OK but this virus is very similar to those found naturally in some of the animals being eaten there as many good sources show. Still no sources about the intensive farming claim, and antibiotics are clearly nothing to do with having to prevent viral evolution.
The risk to climbers from bats is zero unless the climber is very hungry!
> OK but this virus is very similar to those found naturally in some of the animals being eaten there as many good sources show. Still no sources about the intensive farming claim, and antibiotics are clearly nothing to do with having to prevent viral evolution.
I agree, intensive farming per se probably has nothing to do with this. Extending farmland into areas that were previously rainforest may. Using bat guano may. And yes, preparing bats as food may, too.
> The risk to climbers from bats is zero unless the climber is very hungry!
OK but I think the lung capacity of a bat is tiny so the chances of inhaling that tiny little puff of air seems quite remote and your viral load would be miniscule. Interesting question though.
Knew what it was going to be but still just had to watch that - classic.
We're a couple of weeks into lockdown and a lot of climbing filmmakers are kindly uploading their back catalogues for us to enjoy. Ben Pritchard and Rich Heap have uploaded the classic bouldering documentary, Stone Love. The film is the story of five...