UKC

The last few years has seen much hard work by a dedicated few on Yorkshire Limestone. You can enjoy the fruits of their labour as all is documented in a new free supplement.

Sport routes from Fr 3+ with lots in the Fr 6 range.......courtesy of Dave Musgrove, Paul Clarke, Mick Johnson, Alan Steele, Frank Walker, Nigel Baker, Keith Morgan, Andy Watts, Glyn Edwards, John Hunt, Bob Larkin and others

This report also includes an apology.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


It would be interesting - genuinely - to know what's changed your mind between 2004 and now?

In reply to tobyfk:

a separation of the hype and hyperbole from the actual facts on the ground?

seeing what's *actually* going on, rather than the rumours that are about?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: can I enquire as to the quality of the routes and the quality of the rock they're on? My experience with lower grade sport routes in the UK hasn't been good at all, the really easy routes at the LH end of Kilnsey are just dire.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Is there a topo available of the new routes at Kilnsey? The easier ones I mean, not the 8's listed in the Update....
Or does anyone know the grades and could just list them left to right or something?

In reply to HC~F:

http://www.rockfax.com/databases/results_buttress.html?id=1558

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Jolly well done chaps. I'm all for retro bolting. It's the retro grading that seems so utterly pointless and futile to me.

In reply to richardh: Thanks! I obviously looked everywhere but the obvious place....

Went to Sardina last week with my brother - first time on limestone and he led a 6a+ with ease. He's gone back up North clutching my limestone guidebook....

In reply to tobyfk:

me too. why the change of heart? i don't know enough about it all to say what i think but would be interested to know why mick ryan would change his mind so much over such a short period of time. not criticising, just interested.

danny.

In reply to DannyC:

In a nutshell, involved locals know best.

I reckon that those who get involved with local access, re-equipping, and writing guidebooks can be trusted to do the right thing. Further they should have greater say because of the depth of their involvement and commitment.

In this particular case, Dave Musgrove and team have done a collossal amount of work and I reckon the retrobolting of several 'small' routes won't change the nature of British climbing.....or creep to Malham Right Wing or Twistleton etc.....

Climbers can holler and scream all we won't about issues, especially ethical issues, but that is no substitute for being there on the ground doing stuff.

Also look at the great things going down in North Wales, all local initiatives with some guidance from the BMC.

Mick

In reply to Paul B:

Take a wander along Gigg south. - you'll get a fair idea of the err 'quality' range'. At best ok imo

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

cheers. fair enough.

danny.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Thanks for the comments, and the apology, Mick. Its good to see you enjoying the renaissance, particularly as it was you and Tony Burnell who started the ball rolling (down from the 7s and into the 6s) in the early 90s.

As for Yorkspud: You still don't get it, do you. I despair! No one has ever suggested that Giggleswick can rival sector Spartacus in Kalymnos or Sella on the costa Blanca. However the 50+ and rising, devotees that seem to frequent it every Sunday seem pretty happy that we are making the best of the limited resourses we've got. You are quite right that there are no truly great routes here but there are some pretty good ones and lots more that provide at least a few good moves in a sheltered environment that provides reliable weather , and year round dry rock. Its certainly a far more popular and user friendly crag now than it ever was in the 70s, 80s or early 90s. I note that you have commented in a generally negative way about it on several occasions. If you don't like it why waste your time there?

Dave

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

"I did apologise directly to Dave whilst he belayed me whilst leading some of his routes that I had threatened to pull the bolts on. "

LOL. profusely, I imagine!

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I reckon the reason you went off on one about it was that you were homesick, your old hunting grounds were changing and you too far away to affect it.

One of my mates was having fun on Comedy the other day, btw

In reply to Dave Musgrove:
If you don't like it why waste your time there?

I don't!

I know its just my opinion but I just find myself wondering if its really worth trashing limestone cliff environments for arguably poor routes. There are a few good routes at Gigg South but at some point I think a balance has to be struck between development, quality and the crag environment.

I work in the environmental sector and sometimesit pains me professionally to see habitat destroyed for some of these routes but at the same time I've done loads of sport climbing and like climbing on new sectors so I'm not anti-new sport per se - I'm just anti-develop every square metre you can! It's a question of resources, and the best use of them, and I'm not convinced this is what's happening.

In reply to Yorkspud:

I've got insomnia and so ended up thinking about this in the middle of the night. I take your point about habitat being destroyed, but I can't see how those of us who don't work in the environmental sector and who aren't experts can appraise whether or not we think the habitat destruction is worth it, (for us), unless we understand what the destruction takes away.

So, can you tell me, when a bit of yorkshire limestone gets climbed ... and presumably it doesn't matter if it's bolts or trad, it's the cleaning and loose rock removal and climbing that affects stuff, not the bolts?... what is lost ... what's not living there that would've been?

Because I'm glad to have these new areas to climb, and intend to keep climbing there, (and will be very pleased if the guys can find anything else easy enough for me to get up to bolt...), but I'd like to hear the other side of the story.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: How about starting a WIKI like the North Wales ones for Tremadog, Gogarth and the slate with all the up to date news and the ability to add comments, grades etc.
For anyone who does not know what I'm talking about have a look at http://slate.wetpaint.com or replace slate with Gogarth or Tremadog for those areas.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Someone tell me this isn't more accurate:

NEWS: Fat old has-beens retrobolt unfashionable trad routes.

In reply to Paz:

I don't know all the guys mentioned, but I know a fair few of them and none of the ones I know are at all fat.


So being older than you is an insult? Why's that then? Personally I'm much more impressed by Mussy climbing the grades he does at his age than you climbing the grades you do at your age.

>has-beens

Doesn't that just mean they don't climb as hard as they used to? Big deal. They still climb a f*ck sight harder than the average climber.

>retrobolt a few unfashionable trad routes and add lots and lots of new lines and create some great venues for happy climbers to enjoy themselves.

And, more to the point, I bet they're still having a great time.

In reply to Paz:

says a bitter.......no I'd better not Paz...but you get my drift...

So...let's start by YOU listing all the guidebook, access and regearing work that YOU have been involved in.....

In reply to gingerkate:

Obviously there's a balance to be reached somewhere between recreational needs and conservation - they're both valid resource demands but, as you say, its difficult for any one person to reach objectively. This is where the BMC access work is invaluable - in reaching compromises with stautory bodies, landowners etc (though the term 'voluntary' access ban is a bit of a misnomer - the only people really compromising here are the statutory authorities).

As to specific habitat loss - limestone scree and cliffs contain nationally important habitats eg upland mixed ash woodland, and many of their wildflower, and some of their animal, species are protected under law.

In reply to Yorkspud:

So, as the National park isn't deeply upset about the recent bolting, can't I just climb with a reasonably easy conscience? After all, wherever I go, whatever I do, I'm going to be affecting some little creature's habitat.

In reply to gingerkate:

It's ok Kate - i'm not expecting you to get as bothered as I do - it's a by-prodct of my job and hobby! I probably need to stop sniping though but there's something about the subject that makes me want to - perhaps the way its presented a undeniable public good. If Gigg South is full on a warm sunny weekend and Malahm right wing is deserted summats not right with the world of climbing!

In reply to Yorkspud:

If you are that bothered maybe it is time you wrote an article about the flora of the crags you know and let people know where to avoid instead of sniping. That is just negativity.

In reply to Yorkspud:

I don’t want to start another argument and I understand your environmental position and concerns. I share them to some extent and agree that climbing in general has an environmental impact and new routing on crags like Gigg South probably has a higher short term impact than some other aspects of our sport but let me try to explain my perspective.

Let me start by saying that I agree that it seems a shame to me that the truly great routes on right wing of Malham Cove are no longer as popular as they once were. Even more to the point I remember the left wing of Gordale being inundated by dozens of climbers most weekends during the early 1970s but I doubt if a dozen climbers climb there in a year these days. The same could be said for crags like Hawkswick and to a lesser extent Gate Cote Scar and even Attermire is very often deserted these days. The reality is that fashions change and the mainstream moves on.

I am not a trained ecologist but I do know that some of the plants and grasses growing on the Limestone Cliffs are fairly unique to that environment but overall they are locally fairly abundant and my discussions with reps from the National Park and English Nature (now Natural England) are that the rarest species occupy damp dank gullys and cave entrances rather than the drier vertical environments on which we climb.

I also believe, from experience and my own observation rather than any scientific study, that once a crag or a route becomes unpopular it is very quickly, one could say almost instantaneously in evolutionary terms, reclaimed by the flora and fauna which lurks in the wings on the bits that none of us would ever want to climb on. Take Yark at Gordale as a perfect example. In the 1970s it was a great climb as popular an E1 (then old school HVS) as any in Yorkshire. It has now been completely reclaimed by the Ivy and I doubt it would be climbable at all now without a massive gardening effort.

The same thing happens on the grit. During 1989 to 1991 Tony Barley and I spent almost every available climbing day creating what some may call environmental terrorism at Eavestone. We used saws, shovels, yard brooms and even a winch on one occasion to dig out around a hundred or so climbs all of which we thought had great merit at the time. However, fashion wasn’t really with us and not enough repeats were made over the ensuing years and on a recent visit this Spring I can hardly see some of the buttresses we climbed never mind the individual routes. Nature fights back very quickly and our long term impact is, in my opinion, negligible.

Virtually all human activity has environmental consequences. I just wonder how many acres, nay square miles, of concrete and tarmac will replace natural habitat on land set aside for a couple of weeks of athletic events in 2012 in the London area. And that impact will last long after the athletes have left. I could quote dozens of other examples and I truly believe our impact as climbers is pretty small by comparison. If I though otherwise I would act very differently.

Dave

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

Dave, do you happen to know any of the (pre-climbing) history of Eavestone? I was there last week, we climbed Portcullis and came down via the tree bridge. I went back today (just for a reccie) and walking through the narrow space below the tree bridge, realised that the rock to one side was tooled ... we figured that some had been carved away to widen the passage. I wondered why anyone would've done that ... obviously many years ago, but how many years ago? Centuries? And why? I even wondered if it was prehistoric, but I expect that's fanciful.

In reply to Yorkspud:

Just been peering at my guidebook ... I want to go to Malham!

Just need to see if I can find a partner who's happy to lead HVS...

In reply to gingerkate: I believe the lakes were formed and rhododendrons planted in the mid 19th century as part of a Victorian Landscaping scheme probably conected to Sawley Hall, part of the Foutains Abbey Estate. There is a great picture (engraving) in edmund Bogg's book 'From Eden Vale to the Plains of York'. We could't find out who the actual owner was at the time we were active there but there were fishing and shooting syndicates who apparently paid quite a bit of money to some agency for hunting rights in the area. I still think its a wonderful place at this time of year, particularly in this type of weather.

If any other local historians out there know any more I would be interested to find out.

Dave

In reply to gingerkate:

Maybe you, me and Yorkspud should have a day at Malham and one at Giggleswick. To discuss our different perspectives first hand?

Dave

In reply to Dave Musgrove:
Ah, now that makes sense. My husband was saying it was obviously a created place, said there must be a stately home connected with it. I agree, it's wonderful, not surprised you went back 58 times or whatever it was

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

Oh yes please, definitely up for that.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
I looked at the links and there is no mention of retrobolting of existing trad. routes - so where has that suggestion come from? Has that happened in many places apart from the 'ancient' actions at Trollers and Norber?

In reply to Dave Musgrove: "particularly as it was you and Tony Burnell who started the ball rolling (down from the 7s and into the 6s) in the early 90s. "

I think Tony would be less than pleased to be associated with retrobolting established routes.
As for Giggleswick being busy when Malham Right Wing is deserted,these people are obviously climbing for the bolts and not the routes. If they are happy with that experience fair enough but it deflects hoards of climbers to places not always able to cope, ie parking, access and associated issues.

In reply to Dave Musgrove:

True enough re: vegetation coming back and true too about the relative impact of cliff development v housing etc (not really directly comparable though) and you could argue that developing our sport potential is greener than jetting off to Spain. Some plant cummunities however are more sensitive and don't come back quickly, or at all inthe same composition eg scree vegetation.

I suppose my personal feeling is that its probably best for the limited area of undisturbed cliff habitats for a theretical climber, looking around at the opportuniites to climb in this country, to make the decision to do more trad climbing (of which we have loads) rather than 'demanding' more 'new' sport areas.

Perhaps we should go out sometime but I'll have to wait a bit for newborn to be a few months older - by which time I'll probably be looking for some easy sport

ps In the meantime I promise to stop sniping!

In reply to Yorkspud:

Congrats on your newborn. I was going to suggest that as we'd be climbing in a three we could just take it in turns to look after your little yorkshire puddlet, but then I envisaged a babe in arms at teh base of gigg south and realised it was a very bad idea...

Malham would be ok though, surely? Down by the beck? I'm quite happy to do some baby minding as long as I also get some climbing in.

Does Mrs Yorkspud climb?

In reply to gingerkate:

I'l suggest it to her but she doesn't climb herself

In reply to Yorkspud:

Okdoke. Anyway, from a personal pov I can see now why I'm likely to get to GS much more often than Malham: for GS I can go with any partner, for Malham I need one who is a lot better than me. I will get there, but it's inevitably not going to be so simple.

In reply to Dave Musgrove: Hi Dave, not sure if my names being taken in vain here as I haven't got a clue what your talking about