UKC

My opinion is climbing walls cannot be covid safe with people touching the same things over and over again and then touching their faces.

I know lots of people who are going, and with the current weather I am not sure how long I will refrain.

Having said that are there many others who are avoiding.

I'm pretty sure you are not required to touch your face

Haven't been to a wall or a gym for that matter, since February.

My view might be different if I were 22 rather than 62 but why risk permanent damage to your health?

Or dying.

No, but I do, it's a habit, and if you observe, lots of people do, though less so now.

That's my view.

I've not been to one since February either. Although I feel bad for people who rely on walls for income, it just seems too risky. Apart from the risk of spreading it to other people, the risk of getting "long Covid" and having to deal with chronic fatigue for the indefinite future is too scary. I miss it, but I'm just getting outside when the weather is dry, running when it's not and I've put up a little fingerboard.

I'm not, but it's because of having DVT and not because of COVID.  Otherwise I would be.  I think the measures put in place are sensible and there's no need to lick your fingers between climbs.

Being retired we go early doors when it is quiet and use the hand sanitizers a lot.

I've not been going. I can't quantify the risk so for all I know the risk might be only slight but my gut feeling, as we tend towards increasing infection rates, tells me to give it a miss...

I've been back twice. First time waa fine. Second time it was really busy and not possible to keep my distance adequately. I've decided to cancel my membership for now. 

Yes that's an option for me, however climbing huts say 72 hours between use so leaving 12 hours between me and a load of 16 to 25 year olds seems illogical.

I want to go.

Ah fingerboard, am I going to have to put mine up 🤔

I only normally go as a winter evening activity so I haven't missed going yet but I don't think I'll be rushing back. For now I prefer getting out on my bike or boat. A shame because I like the vibe of the Nottingham/ Derby walls and it's a nice place to be alone or with the kids. 

I've been going and it's been fine tbh.

Wear a mask at all times except when climbing works well, regular use of hand sanitiser etc. I think the walls are running it really well.

I have climbed inside once since March, and didn't really enjoy it to be honest. As much as I miss it, I just feels a step too far for me personally at this time. We've been outside more this year than we have in ages which is great and reconfirmed my love for it. Now the weather is changing I feel pretty down to be honest, but we have decided to build a home woody. I can do some laps and enjoy 'just moving' without having to worry about who was heavy breathing or even sneezing on the holds before me!

At 62, I came to the conclusion there was a real risk of permanent damage to my health, or at least my fitness, by not getting back to the wall.  The walls I use are well-managed, masks worn on close communal areas, hand sanitisers everywhere, and numbers restricted.  They definitely feel safer then the few pubs I've sat inside.

There's some evidence that chalky hands and holds are a pretty hostile environment for the virus, which seems logical to me, but there's probably a degree of confirmation bias there.

Not been because the only wall local to me and feasible for me to get to, is still closed.  It's part of a sports centre which is scheduled to reopen next month - although I'd not be surprised if that's pushed back to early next year.

I miss it lots.

what do you want, a medal? stop trying to guilt trip people who are trying to get on with their lives. nothing is 100% 'covid safe'. we are just going to have to accept that people are going to die of the virus this winter. as a society we accept that 10's of thousands die of the flue and other respiratory infections every winter. this is going to have to be another one to add to the list.

How can I phrase this, get stuffed.

Nothing is covid safe, that's very true. Exactly why it is up to the individual to decide what they want to do, be that going to the pub, going to the climbing wall, visiting family (or going to a rave). It's easy to say 'we have to accept that people are going to die of the virus this winter' until it's someone you know, or even yourself. I didn't see any 'guilt trip' in SteveX's original post, it was a simple question.

If you feel happy climbing indoors, good for you.

If others don't, good for them too. 

I'm not -- less concerned with the risk of surface transfer, much more about airborne transmission, based on current evidence -- but I'm also currently living very close to outdoor bouldering and have a fingerboard and a very small home board. So it's not exactly a hardship!

If my situation was different, I might be making a different call, given the importance of climbing to my mental health.

I think everyone's got to make their own judgement call about this, depending on all sorts of factors like whether you're in a higher-risk group (or living with someone who is), whether you can climb at off-peak times, how well you think your local wall is enforcing precautions, what level of risk you're exposed to in other contexts, etc. etc. etc..  I'm not going to judge anyone who makes their own risk assessment and decides it's worthwhile for them to go to the wall.

I have been to the wall a couple of times since they reopened, my local wall seems well managed and social distancing is easy to maintain. Another nearby wall much less so and I doubt I will be back there for quite a while. 

That's where I am at.

It will be interesting to see at what point, the fact I want to go, alters my perception of risk.

The risk will not change, just my perception.

I'm going regularly now. The GCC (top rope, auto-belay & lead) is less busy than the TCA bouldering centre and the demographic slightly older and more cautious / observant. Its easier keep a distance on routes than bouldering.

I'm now restricting my TCA visits to early weekend mornings as it reaches capacity pretty quickly weekday evenings and the weekend. Peak times seem to attract a less cautious crowd, perhaps self-selecting as the cautious will go early or not at all.

Along with supermarket shopping, its the only risky activity I do now. 

Given you can't even spell 'flue' I'm not sure it's worth dismantling your argument. But, for what it's worth, there have been over 40,000 deaths from covid-19 in the UK despite social distancing measures, whereas flu deaths average 15,000 without measures. Epidemiological models predicted half a million covid deaths without social distancing. So... go figure - you utter sociopath.

Well, it might.  It's been changing (reducing slightly) all along as the virus is better understood and treatments are developed.

I’m 44 and haven’t been to a wall or the gym since March.

I don’t want me or my wife to get COVID; perhaps more specifically, I don’t want either of us to have to deal with Long COVID.

Fortunately, we have the ability to workout effectively at home, as well as having the Cumbrian fells and lakes on our doorstep. We acknowledge many others aren’t so fortunate.

Possibly our understanding of the risk may change. I suppose the risk will only change as treatments develop or maybe as the Virus mutates, it could become more or less dangerous.
 

That too.

Which has already happened to some (limited) extent.

It *appears* it has become more contagious, as lockdown measures which previously worked to contain it seem not to be doing.

Been visiting our local walls 2-3 times per week since the reopening with my daughter. I don’t climb but I am on the mats. I wear a mask on and off the mats. I do the brushing and as soon as we leave the mats we use hand sanitizer. I wash down any seat or table I sit at. I sanitizer as I walk in and leave. The walls we climb at only ever seem to be at 50% of the Covid reduced capacities at most and when they do get busy like last Friday evening we pack up and go home. Not once have I felt I didn’t have enough space or the wall wasn’t doing enough to keep us safe. I have not had any Covid time off work for the entire period. I still have to go into my workplace and mix with my workmates. My daughter has to go to school and mix with hundreds of others. The climbing wall may be a risk of sorts but it is also a place of solitude to help deal with current life and allow my family some normality

My main focus is my Father, he is 83 and my mother died at Christmas and I want to support him, even though hes a miserable old bugger, its where I get it from, and the main support I can give him is by visiting him.

I've not been since about February, and to be honest I'm really missing it, particularly as I can't see it likely I'll be able to return until well into next year. When the wall reopened I asked if they'd freeze my membership as I'd paid for a full year's access back in September, and they did, although only until next month (I'm hoping they'll extend that). I think people have to take a decision based on their own circumstances as there's definitely a degree of risk, but from what I've read that's being managed, and as someone else said life goes on, especially if you're young. If it wasn't for the fact I have close contact with vulnerable relatives I'd probably go myself. And it's just not only the risk of getting covid and passing it on, but the risk of having to self-isolate for 14 days if I'm in the wrong place at the wrong time that I keep in mind. 

I've been reliably informed by a 74 year old American that it's nothing to be scared of..

I totally understand that.  If I were in your position I would be taking no chances either.

I agree, I was in the bouldering wall last night and there wasn't any effective social distancing and of course everyone was touching all the holds. I used the hand sanitiser twice during the session, and liquid chalk twice - not enough.

Although I don't think it's a massive risk like sitting in an office with people all day or a house party, we're kidding ourselves if we think it's "covid secure" - it isn't. I've got vulnerable parents who I still want to see, and I really don't want to get a horrible virus that leaves me feeling like shit for weeks or potentially months (I sometimes get 3 weeks of feeling shit after a bad cold, so I feel like I'm likely to get covid badly enough to ruin my life for a while if I get it).

So the risk is definitely real (both likelihood and impact) but for me the balance is definitely in favour of going. I haven't got light/time to go outside after work now, don't have training facilities at home, and feel much better having done some proper exercise by the end of the day. The wall is where I see my local friends. I have no interest in spending a dark, cold, wet evening running and I don't have a bike. It's also important for me to climb the stuff I like climbing on my days off (i.e. bouldering outdoors this time of year) and to enjoy that I need a basic level of strength that I keep up by going indoors. 

So yes, it's a risk, but for me the benefits of the wall outweigh it and I'll continue going (at least until I catch covid and spend 3 months feeling utterly shite and getting horribly depressed as I can't do anything except just about make it through work and then fall asleep exhausted).

Having put it into words and clarified my view on it, I'll use the hand sanitiser a few more times next session!

I wonder about the likelihood of transmission via hold contact as, even if the virus might sometimes be deposited on holds and then picked up from them on hands, it then needs to make its way to your mouth, and who puts chalky fingers into their mouth, or even on their lips? Without chalky hands I think we're likely to touch our mouths inadvertently from time to time, but I very much doubt we'll do that to anywhere near the same extent once our hands are covered in chalk.

As I understand it, it is now believed that the main route for transmission is through aerosols.

https://www.technologyreview.com/2020/10/02/1009235/this-scientist-made-a-g...

I guess shared use of holds in a bouldering wall will of course exacerbate that but I'm wary of being in confined spaces with a lot of other people. Especially when social distancing is commonly ignored or just impractical. 

Yes, my fitness has been reduced by enforced inactivity but to a degree it is something I could address if I had the drive to do so. I could maintain climbing fitness from bouldering outside for example, I can do stretching and weight training in my own house. Certainly when this is over my fitness will return over six months or perhaps a year. I balance this temporary loss of fitness against the real possibility, as I understand it, of permanent damage to my health from contracting C19. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-53065340

Yes, that guy.

The one who's been surrounded by a team of doctors 24/7 and been treated with everything from monoclonal antibodies to Domestios and was still struggling to breathe while saluting the Stars and Stripes last night.

No, nothing to worry about, nothing at all..

Yeah I'm not sure if the holds is really the issue - the virus doesn't do well in the chalk, they say. I think it's being in a non-socially distanced indoor space for a couple of hours with a bunch of people who might have covid!

 I didn't see any 'guilt trip' in SteveX's original post, it was a simple question.

i agree with most of what you say. but he is looking for self gratification and a pat on the back, otherwise why post? its a discussion which has gone round in circles millions of times, nothing new has changed, so why post now? if you dont want to go and do x, y or z then fine, dont. making a post about it, directly or otherwise, is trying to influence others decisions.

I have stopped going to places like B&Q and supermarkets etc because I got sick of people aged 60+ absolutely ignoring social distancing and how to wear a mask. Even when asked politely to keep 2m away they actually get aggressive. In the end I decided I am working as hard as I can to mitigate it and protect people who really aren’t that bothered about being protected. Those that are trying to protect themselves, well I would hope they are doing what my own highly susceptible parents are doing and keeping themselves as far away from public as possible. In comparison the climbing walls are relative havens of safety with measures in place for people to make informed choices to go. Nowhere is 100% safe but in the list of places I visit it’s definately not that risky. For balance I haven’t visited a pub or had an alcoholic drink in public for over a year. I have had a couple of meals out and both felt as safe as could be with 10ft + distancing

I've not been and don't currently plan on going unless it is with my friend who is the other half of my social bubble so that we have both made an informed decision (we agreed a while ago to discuss with each other before going to walls). That may change, however as things look to be getting worse I am considering a hangboard as a sensible investment.

so, he's wrong to post, but you're right to respond? how's that work?

I'm 69, wife 68, no aged parents left. Since released from lockdown I have been bouldering indoors on Friday afternoons with a maximum of a dozen others, wife swims 3 mornings a week at David Lloyd which is also very quiet. I'm not at all concerned about the wall, a bit more concerned about Tesco despite masks, but I had all the conventional symptoms of Covid in mid-December and they lasted about 4 days. Been running with a permanent cough since Xmas but X-ray recently confirms nothing sinister. Need to climb, getting really weak arms after 6 months of running and biking...

"making a post about it, directly or otherwise, is trying to influence others decisions."

Pretty much the entire point of a public discussion forum! Maybe it was just to see how other people are viewing the situation now, as it is changing weekly. Personally I have found it interesting to read all the different views on it. It's not changing my opinion though, as an internet forum is not something I base important health decisions on as that would be Trump-levels of idiocy.

A lot depends on the climbing wall itself. Some are good and some are just indifferent. Fortunately I am in an area where there is an abundance of walls so I can pick and choose. On pure bouldering ones I will visit them outside core hours. Otherwise they just seem full of potential spreaders. 
 

A lot depends on how old you are. But I do think wall managers have to wake upto the fact that they may lose their older regular customers if the wall is not managing the risk well. And older customers tend to be more affluent.  

I have been going to Ratho regularly since it reopened two weeks ago. It's been brilliant for my sense of wellbeing as well as my endurance and feels like I have finally got my social life back - I've not been to a pub or restaurant, live alone and have made or had only a handful of home visits since February. Ratho being huge and airy with social distancing no problem, it is probably relatively safe (I am told that they are unlikely to even reach their maximum capacity). It certainly feels a lot safer than the rest of the day spent in a school! 

How can anywhere be covid safe!!!

Current thinking, AFAIK, is that most people don't spread it but some are super spreaders. Most transmission is aerosol. So it doesn't matter how many people are in there, if you have one superspreader you are knackered. I won't be going near them for the foreseeable. 

I asked a friend of mine his experience and he said its was great, Masks on entry, then just like normal, which to me at 57 and  3/4, was not terribly confidence inspiring.

Most of my mates are going and I doubtless will succumb, its just a question of time and weaving myself the correct story

I've suddenly become very conscious of my habit of holding the rope in my mouth (which I have just pulled up with my hand) when clipping! My partners and I are leading on our own separate ropes.

I am contemplating a return this week. I don't tend to go over the summer anyway and return from holiday has reset me into autumn mode.

My local seems at the stricter end - masks to be worn the whole time - which I can see as useful from a safety perspective but which I am also not looking forwards to much - both from the perspective of exertion whilst masked and because it will force me to wear contact lenses rather than glasses.

As others have said, my main concern would be with space/ventilation/etc. Fundamentally it seems that this is an airborne problem with a side order of surface transmission risk, so I don't tend to focus my concern on the latter as much.

I guess you handle the whole rope while belaying, so putting it in your mouth is probably ill-advised, if your partner has covid. Personally, I'm taking the gamble that my partner doesn't have covid rather than assuming they have and then trying not to catch it off them.

I've not gone since Feb, and cancelled my membership. It totally sucks, but there's no way it can be 'safe' and i've got a pregnant wife.

There's always one. Someone ready to transmit the virus from school to wall.

Is that  tongue in cheek?
Because otherwise that means you think most essential workers should not go to the wall, NHS, Retail, Carrier Drivers only people who can work from home and the like.

Apologies if I have missed a joke.

Yeah, I'm trying to go by a rule of "no gear or ropes in anybody's mouths" while trad climbing outside. Good way to force myself to get in smarter positions to place gear and clip and get less faff-y, I guess ...

So should I, along with anyone else mixing with other people at work, be voluntarily self-isolating when not at work? Sorry, not going to happen. If you feel uneasy about mixing with other people legitimately going to climbing walls, then you are probably best to stay away (as some are clearly doing).

I've not been back to the wall despite being able to go at off peak times. I have been back to the swimming pool....maybe that's illogical but off peak the changing rooms are quiet  and one may end up sharing a lane with just one other person.

 In reply to J1234:

I’ve started going back to the Depot in Manchester who are managing the situation very well in my opinion. There are plenty of hand sanitizer points and people of all ages are wearing face masks when not climbing. The staff are cleaning surfaces regularly.  They also have a capacity counter online so you can monitor how busy the wall is before visiting.

I’m 65 and was quite apprehensive on my first visit but actually really enjoyed it. I wash my hands regularly and use hand sanitizer followed by liquid chalk. As an oldie I’m able to go off peak early in the morning when it is quieter.

No. Husband has asthma and I recently found out that my long-term condition may be permanently worsened by Covid. I spoke to a friend who'd been to my local wall and he said no one was bothering about distancing etc so I know I'd not enjoy it. I've not spent much time indoors anywhere that isn't our house - just quick trips into loos etc.

I can cope with the surfaces element, I'm more worried about droplets/aerosols becoming concentrated in an enclosed space with others. I'm also one of those people who gets floored by a cold that others might shrug off, so I don't hold out much hope that I'd shrug off Covid easily.

I've been cycling a lot instead which on the plus side is something my husband will join me in (he is not a fan of climbing). Cycling as far as we can manage from South London (not very far, usually Sussex by the time we've hauled loaded bikes over the Downs) and camping has been a nice change, though the weather is making that less attractive now.

I do really miss it though, and living in London getting outdoors is harder. I could go to Southern Sandstone but I don't fancy the train either. I have even entertained notions of cycling to the Tunbridge Wells Travelodge (the glamour) and staying a couple of nights to use it as a base for SS, if I got a nice enough weekend and a willing partner. Probably too wet for that now.

I don't judge people who are going climbing indoors, though. Their situations are different from mine.

Personally I am going. As far as the risk involved, I find it an acceptable level of risk for me, if you don't find the risk acceptable to yourself then you don't go.

Simple as that as far as I can see, we all do different things in our lives some which others would find a totally unacceptable risk, its all on a spectrum and you live your life at the risk level you deem tolerable.

I wouldn't wing suit, but i ride a motorcycle and climb. Someone else might think riding a bike and rock climbing is mental (rock climbing whilst riding a bike is definitely mental), another might think it's totally mundane and go wing suiting instead.

Boil it down and there are people that find going out in to public places an unacceptable risk and others that don't.

As far as COVID safe, it doesn't exist, safety is a concept that isnt black and white. A term used in the industry I work within is ALARP - As low as reasonably practicable. Has the risk been reduced to ALARP - Yes or No. 

If yes, there is nothing further you can do to make it safer without taking unreasonably onerous measures (full lockdown again)

If no, there is more that can be done with a small effort that will have an impact in reducing risk (wearing masks, distancing where possible)

I'd love for the concept of ALARP to be brought out to the wider public. There is no realistic way to be 100% safe. That's true for COVID, walking down the street, driving a car, living in a house with a gas boiler, petting that friendly looking dog.

Haven't gone back yet. Have people been bouldering while wearing masks? I watched the British championships recently and a number of them wore masks while competing, so if they can I guess most can?

So in short your still going to the wall.

TBH I was not really after a lecture on assessing risk, but rather ALARP I prefer to use a Risk Matrix, ie Probability v Impact.

The probability is actually very difficult to assess, but the personal impact at 57 and 3/4 could be very high, and losing two parents in a year would be a tad careless, so probably for me, best to avoid, but I make no judgement on anyone else.

That reminds me of theBangor University Mountaineering Society's magazine front cover from 1982. Someone on a (pedal) bike on Lord of the Flies with the caption "Come on pedals, do your stuff"

Advice seems mixed on this. Arch latest email has the WHO advice on masks during exercise which is against since if it gets saturated with sweat it can both become hard to breath (probably less of a factor here) but also be a breeding ground.

I did try it and got unpleasant fairly quickly. Would be a case really of having several masks and swapping them out every 10-20 mins I think.

It wasn't a lecture, just my two pence.

I have not been to a wall, gym, pub, restaurant, cafe, cinema or anything that is indoor and public except the petrol station, local shop, super Market and just recently the chippy since early February.

I have been to work at least 5 days a week helping to keep the water, food and medicine flowing but that is critical. The other stuff isn't and I refuse to take the risk for myself or my wife. 

Blimey, that's hardcore. I think something we all need to do is be respectful of other people's attitude to this issue, and that seems to shift over time for some people.

If it keeps raining I very much doubt I will not have been to a bouldering wall in the next few weeks but middle of the day.

I won't. I'm mid-60s, male and a bit lardy, which puts me in the higher risk groups, and I have family members with high-risk health conditions, so we haven't been out much apart from essential shopping and solo walks.  I haven't even been climbing outdoors, which I've missed badly. I get varying reports on how well my local walls are managing it, which doesn't encourage me to risk it.  I'm not so bothered about climbing indoors though as I don't much enjoy it (it doesn't feel like climbing to me) and it was always a bit of an effort to force myself to go, especially now we can't go to the pub afterwards

I do think if walls are to be open, masks should be worn at all times. Fabric ones are not a big deal and are pretty effective. It's not just about whether you are willing to risk it or not, the more people get it, the deeper lockdown we all need to go into! 

Our wall is part of a sports center and the management don't really understand climbing. So we only have autobelays open and max of 5 people in. You have to book in advance for a single hour session with half an hour in between sessions. So it's making no money at all, and pretty much no one is using it. I have been twice, willing to mask at all times, but have actually been the only one in both times so only masked on entry and exit. 

I very much doubt I would be going to a more traditional wall.

We're going - though we are fortunate for a number of reasons that makes it (to my mind) relatively low risk for us:

1. Both mid-30s with no close contact with vulnerable people (parents a long ways away, working from home) so minimal personal risk even if we contract;

2. Our wall is pretty big for the max of 50 people they're allowing in;

3. Face masks at all times - the risk is droplets, why allow people to de-mask and breathe/cough/splutter all over the holds that everyone else has to touch, pretty much makes the wearing of masks anywhere else in the centre obsolete;

4. Live in Dorset - pretty low infection rates anyway.

Though to be honest I think 1. on its own would swing it for us.

Re: masks, I use a buff rather than a mask, if I can ski or cycle in it it's certainly okay to breathe through when climbing, plus if it gets a bit damp you can just move it around to a dry bit.

All down to personal circumstances and fully respect people have different risk tolerances and vulnerability levels. 

If masks were compulsory, I'm not sure I would bother going; my glasses would just steam up.

The touching the wall/touching face thing is probably not important. As far as I'm aware the risk is theoretical and there's been no published evidence that it's a significant vector for transmission

The lack of ventilation and multiple people indoors is, as respiratory droplets are the main cause of infection.  This has been shown to be a problem in cold environments with people being infected up to 8m away. No amount of hand sanitising is going to protect you from the belayer on the next line.

Personally I've been tracking the numbers at the local wall and going down when it's quiet. I've already had it, and wouldn't be bothered getting it again but I'd like to avoid the hassle of contact tracing or having to isolate again.

I'm not going to climbing walls. 

This is because I've given up on 🚆ing for climbing and am spending my time doing things to make myself faster on my feet over rough ground.

I do miss it tho, but 8a is gone for me. Ah well. BG instead. Right?

BB,

Serial failure.

I go to the same wall and have re-started when it opened again recently.
Before the restrictions, I was part of a group of 'senior athletes' who met regularly there twice a week and it was a really important part of my routine. I think that climbing has become a form of mindfulness for me and I was really missing it.
On my first return there were only two of us and I was on my own last week. So this week I emailed our group of oldies and five of us met up there today. We were able to maintain distance but still get a good session in the hour (long enough as I am out of shape) and the chat was great.
I am satisfied with the cleanliness & sanitisation systems and it is well ventilated so I will continue to go while it is open. The only down side so far is the drying out of my hands due to the sanitiser and liquid chalk that I am using liberally.

PS The supermarket once a week and the wall are the only public places I am visiting at the moment and I think it will stay that way for quite a while.

The respective profiles say all you need to know. You're 24. SteveX is 56, I'm 69. Do you appreciate at all how much greater chance we have of dying of COVID than you do?

I'm afraid it's increasingly clear that it's people of your age and attitude that are substantially responsible for the current second spike - which is now spreading back to the more vulnerable age groups, and leading us back to heavy lockdowns.

I know many young people who are taking the virus seriously, but they wouldn't have written as you have.

Sorry to be so blunt. But that's how I felt on reading your post.

Martin

Yes, the big open space is reassuring. I will still keep my mask on if others are in though. To be honest though, I might wait until we have new routes! If I have to pay to climb, I will start being picky! Lol

Great, another Covid thread. Let the arguments get reheated from back in spring and the fun start... I do enjoy the debate.

On a serious note, I think your concern is valid for high incidence areas. We have to take basic precautions but I’m happy going tor the wall for now, despite my city (Brum) being fairly high on the list of high incidence areas.

I’m not particularly concerned by touching the holds. Scientific consensus seems to be that the main form of transmission is via droplets from coughing, sneezing and talking, as well as some even smaller micro particles which may hang around in the air for a while. Of course going to the wall involves touching a lot of shared holds, so the risk there may be greater than average. However it can be largely mitigated by washing your hands before and after. I also clean my phone with surgical spirit when I get home from the wall. You are right about touching your face but I just don’t any more. We’ve all had 6 months to learn not to do that...

The point for me is SD. Go at quiet times and/of seek out quiet areas. Bouldering is better than ropes as you can move away quickly if an area gets busy. It also avoids contact with non household people, unless you live with your climbing partner. 

You are right that nothing is fully Covid safe. That’s just government inspired marketing speak. The way I see it, everyone has a Covid risk budget. If you stay at home all the time, you don’t spend any of it. If you go to the pub with five other mates followed by a rave before going to work in a customer facing role the following day and then to the wall in the evening, you’ll bust your overdraft and the bailiffs will be a-knocking.

Most people are somewhere in the middle. I don’t think most people are ‘getting on with their lives’ as before - most people have had to make changes. That could be WFH or not going to the pub or not having family reunions, not to mention the plethora of local Covid measures. I suspect people will keep doing what’s important for them. I’m happy to spend my Covid budget on climbing indoors and out. Due to WFH, not going to the pub and not seeing family, my spend is fairly low so there’s budget available. 

Not sure there is any evidence it has become more contagious. We don’t have the same lockdown measures as back in spring and people are probably less observant of the rules than they were back then. 

Well put. I might add that you could not go to the wall, not get Covid and still get horribly depressed as you can't do anything except just about make it through work and then fall asleep exhausted...

I'm not defending Webster, but I disagree with you that younger people are responsible for the second spike. One thing you need to understand is that younger people are more likely to be:

- living in cramped accomodation without a garden
- having to go to workplaces
- have children who are at school

Given this situation where people are forced into contact with others through necessity, it's not surprising that they are more relaxed when it comes to things they have some choice over. And, indeed, they've been encouraged to relax by the government, who have been literally giving them vouchers and telling them to go and socialise with strangers.

The people who are substantially responsible for the second spike are the Tory government, who've failed by every measure. And who voted in these reactionary bastards, who increasingly resemble a reactionary death cult...? Disproportionately, people over 65.

Younger people have been suffering from Tory austerity for a decade, whilst the "boomers" as a whole have actually economically benefitted since the 2008 crisis. But, sooner or later, you reap what you sow.

Well, we aren't all given handouts by the government to stay at home (and no, you haven't paid for this - you paid for the much smaller and less long lived generation before you - it is the current younger generation that you're vilifying that is paying for you nice retirement, and one that they are not going to enjoy themselves).

My experience is similar to one of the posters above in that whilst visiting places such as shops that it is your generation who are most stubbornly refusing to wear masks or keep their distance.

It's also all a bit rich given how the wrinklies on here all squealed like stuck hogs when the possibility was mooted of them maybe choosing to self isolate just a bit in order to protect themselves.  But noo, it was the young who were supposed to keep cooped up in their tiny studio appartments.  Remember that?  Or wait, this is basically the same discussion right?

Ditto.

Blame the old for their terrible leadership and unintelligent choices in handling of the virus, not the young for having the desire to live their lives.

Take precautions to protect your own health, don't expect everyone else to suffer for your safety. It's all well and good to keep others wellbeing in mind, but to go about expecting people to put your health over their happiness when your perfectly capable of protecting yourself is ridiculous.

This guilt economy is stifling and unsustainable. Well done for buying into the "blame the young" mentality the government/media fed you. Bloody kids trying to get an education and make human contact in the prime of their lives!

Very good post, I can't imagine why you have four dislikes (possibly the language?) You are 100% correct.

Exactly. My generation (65+) has lost any right to lecture anybody. (I'm one of the minority who didn't vote for the current disaster nor the impending one.)

By the same token the young shouldn't expect to go home to mummy, or grand parents at xmas, half term etc.. That's where the risk lies. 

There is a lot of poison in these attitudes. IMHO it is completely wrong to blame "the old" or "the young" as groups. If people want they should restrict their criticisms to those old people or those young people who behave or have behaved in a way one disagrees with. The attitudes have some similarities to  ignorant racial prejudice where people wrongly blame an  entire group for, say, terrorism or violent crime.

I have you a thumbs up.

But as an over 65 I must protest strongly at being lumped together with those who voted for our current leaders

Agreed. I was more trying to point out that blaming the young is unfair rather than suggesting we all jump on the blame the old bandwagon instead. There's plenty more individuals who are worried can do to protect themselves rather than this group think collective guilt that seems to be afflicting all levels of society at the moment.

Yes - obviously not all over 65s! And, I'm also not in anyway meaning to suggest that this means younger people should just disregard the health of older people and our communities as a whole. Just that we swim or sink together - and not only when it comes to Covid.

I live close to several schools and for me the most obvious breaches of social distancing are the kids socialising. I don't resent this in any way, everyone has a life to lead and people make their own decisions.

There is a cost to all these decisions though. For me the cost is reduced close contact with my family, especially my grandchildren. Two of them are in schools that are now shut and until they have been symptom free for a while i won't be seeing them

Well said. This young vs old debate is unpleasant and unhelpful because the reality is that there are many, many reasons for this second wave - government incompetence and human nature being the main ones. We are social animals and that’s hard to change. We are also faced with the greatest crisis faced by the country since WW2 and the most incompetent government within living memory and beyond. 

Kids are kids though. You can’t blame them for lack of SD, especially younger ones. There is also uncertainty over the extent to which younger kids spread Covid. 

This is exactly why older climbers are afraid to visit climbing walls.

Why’s that?

1. Mid 30's. Perception of being invincible. 

2. Wearing a buff is almost as effective as no mask at all.

You did ask.

I did, as I was curious.

I have no perception of being invincible, and I'm not sure how you infer that. I and my family made a conscious decision that the risk presented to us personally was low enough to be tolerable given low risk of infection and minuscule risk of developing a serious case if infected, and we took the decision to not see vulnerable family / friends (which was relatively easy as that only stopped one or two visits per year). We socially distance, we take all precautions the Govt stipulates. If we think we're invincible from that, presumably people with an inherently higher risk who go to the wall are at the next level of invincible - mega-invincible, or maybe uber-invincible?

Suspect from one comment you've lumped us in with a few people you've had a bad experience of who happen to be my age? 

I was not aware buffs were inadequate face coverings. I have no doubt that a surgical mask, if used correctly, would prevent smaller particles, but buffs and any other cloth face covering clearly fall within UK Govt and US CDC requirements, so I assumed (perhaps incorrectly) that were sufficient for purpose. I opted against surgical masks as they need changing as soon as they get damp to remain effective (when exercising that's pretty regularly) - I went through four in an hour once - and because they are single-use plastic.

As it's been raised I decided to have a quick Google. This was 10mins plus some typing time, so I'm sure there's plenty more and it may not have been sufficient for a balanced view, but to summarise:

FDA: "If worn properly, a surgical mask is meant to help block large-particle droplets, splashes, sprays, or splatter that may contain germs (viruses and bacteria), keeping it from reaching your mouth and nose. Surgical masks may also help reduce exposure of your saliva and respiratory secretions to others.

While a surgical mask may be effective in blocking splashes and large-particle droplets, a face mask, by design, does not filter or block very small particles in the air that may be transmitted by coughs, sneezes, or certain medical procedures. Surgical masks also do not provide complete protection from germs and other contaminants because of the loose fit between the surface of the mask and your face."

A summary of a study in the (US) community: "Experiments with mock viruses and patients in laboratories suggest surgical masks should help prevent viral illnesses “if used correctly”. Yet, randomised trials done on people in their homes or communities often show little, if any, benefit." There's more, but to summarise it concludes that they would be useful if people wore them properly, but that vast majority don't. Fit isn't so important for surgical masks as they're designed to stop stuff getting in; whilst they're also fairly effective at stopping stuff coming straight out, it just comes out in every other direction through the gaps.

I did also read about a study by Duke which was trialling a new, cheaper method of testing masks using light refraction (I didn't try to understand further). Buffs and other stretchy masks performed poorly, and this received a lot of sensationalist press, though the scientist conducting it stated it was a trial of unproven technology and was not designed to rank masks. A NIST aerosol expert speculated that the result may be due to the spandex fibres causing larger droplets to break into smaller ones, thus increasing 'spray' (this is what the press picked up), but that in all his time working in aerosols he had never seen that happen (they mostly omitted this), and the dataset was too small to draw any meaningful conclusions.

Other summaries all differ but the broad conclusion seems to be nothing short of respirators is great. A correctly used and fitted surgical mask is okay, but too few people use or fit them properly. Cloth lets more droplets through, but usually easier to fit due to elasticity in the mask itself.

These findings interested me and I may do some more research to make a better-informed decision than relying on the advice from Govt, but I don't think there's anything there to justify your comment - especially not as most walls allow you to take your mask off when climbing, we don't, so on the basis that anything is better than nothing I'm not sure how we're the reason that 'older' climbers (I assume you mean more vulnerable regardless of age) are afraid to visit the wall.

None of those things are really comparable to a virus, as they are not contagious. The risk analysis is completely different.

I hear that several Depot Manchester staff had to lockdown this week after one of them tested, not sure if customers have been informed

If the front page of The Times is to be believed, leisure facilities in high incidence areas in the North will close from next week. I’m sure there will be some toing and front behind the scenes ahead of Monday’s expected announcement but it’s going this way. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-54458296

The only thing which surprises me a bit is that the second wave has come 4-5 weeks earlier than I was expecting. I’ve been pretty bemused by all these people at work and elsewhere who seemed to decide earlier this year that we weren’t going to have a second wave. It was always forecast, right from that original Imperial College paper back in March... 

I have not been yet and I am not keen. Heavy breathing and the widely ignored issue of rope in mouth plus the indoor nature/close contact put me off. 

It also depends on the specifics of your local wall, for me:

King Kong Keswick, little or no air flow, high risk. 

Eden Rock, draughty large shed, medium risk, 

Kendal with all doors propped open, like being outside, low risk. 

There are a number of posts above that have drunk the cool aid on the chalk paper. Please, think again, it borders on pseudo science. 

Yes, this was all predicted.

I understand why walls want to open, and why people want to go, but for myself I think it would be the wrong thing.

This thread has been good as I thought I was the only person not going.

It seems to me that a lot of the problem lies with the lack of clear guidance from the government. Faced with contradictory guidance which seems to be made up on the hoof with no sense of a coherent strategy, people are falling back on one of Boris's recommendations and relying on "good old British common sense".  People are making up their own minds about what feels safe for them.  Many young people appear to feel, probably correctly, that if they get it they won't be very ill, and that if it is safe for them to go to work, use trains, eat out etc then it is safe for them to meet friends.  On the other hand, many older people, including myself, are perhaps being over-cautious and are still avoiding activities which the guidance now allows us to do.

I find this a very uncomfortable situation.  I'm in my mid-sixties, I've been a climber and mountaineer since I was 18.  I'm moderately fit and active and in good health.  I'm not accustomed to thinking of myself as "vulnerable", and frankly I don't much like it.  But I don't want to get this disease and I don't want to give it my family, so I'm being cautious.

I’m also in my mid 60s and am avoiding, it just seems to me to be a high risk area and I can do other things. One thing that did piss me off yesterday on a number of levels was when I was bouldering yesterday at a Yorkshire crag I was trying a problem when two youths strode up and dump their pads beneath me Saying let’s try this one. It was as if I was completely invisible, I got off gathered my things and one of them said “why not join us” , I thought “why not have some manners” but said nothing and went elsewhere. So rude and also COVID-19 risk to me

Some useful links to recent research in here, including the debate about buffs:

https://www.outsideonline.com/2416950/wearing-face-masks-outside-exercising...

I think this is a problem with this situation, in that when people assess risk, they often only seem to do it from a personal perspective, rather than appreciating that the risk to some people is different than it is to themselves, and that some people have different perception of risk, and that this should be appreciated.

These people were probably being thoughtless in the truest sense of the word, in that they just did not give thought that you may have different view of the world.

I haven't been to a wall since my carpal tunnel op in 2011. Does that count?

No, clear off

I've not been back yet (not sure if I will) but I do miss it when my pals post stuff on social media. I've never really been that big on climbing inside (I mostly climb because I like being outside), but I think I am missing feeling in good knick. 

The past week or so of rain has been harder, so winter is going to suck. I have a little wall in the garden but find the holds a bit greasy if it's been wet. 

I really don't want all the breathy problems and I'm hit hard by colds so at the minute I just can't consider going inside. 

Yes this can make you feel the odd one out.

It definitely seems to be true that the risk of transmission outdoors is much much lower -- which is not the same as saying there's no risk, which is how some people seem to be interpreting it.

It's very possible that the youths in question weren't intending to be rude but were thinking of it as a no-risk or minimal-risk situation, and it hadn't occurred to them that you might be operating by different rules.

In similar situations, I do have the tendency to be stereotypically British about it and leave while judging them silently, but on occasions when I have managed to say "Excuse me, I'm trying to stay socially distanced", people have responded positively and been fine about it.

I’ve been quite a bit since they reopened.

It’s up to each individual to make their own decisions and, as long as we all follow the rules, we ought not to criticise others for coming to different conclusions than we have.

Peace.

That's just what I expected to hear from a route hogging top roper.  

People just aren't prepared to make the necessary sacrifices.

Heaven help us if we ever end up in a proper war again...

I completely agree. I'm 65 but I've decided I'm quite happy going to the wall, whether on a quiet morning like today or a much busier wet weekend. But I've got mates of a similar fine vintage who are much more cautious. I'd be very interested in seeing what data there is on  where transmissions are actually occurring  - eg what percentage occur in indoor leisure facilities. But given that the govt appears unable to provide any statistical justification for its pub curfew, I wonder if such data exists. Is it out there and I've just missed it? Can anyone point me in the right direction?

Sure you're talking about climbing?

I haven't been to a wall for yonks because where I live it hasn't rained for 4 months, doesn't look like it's going to start antime soon, and I have lots of decent unfinished projects to go at outside that are easily accessible (I can feel the hate from 2000 miles away!)  <Smug-mode-off>

Also I think people may tend to give me a wider berth when I'm wearing my "Plague Doctor Says: Social Distancing Saves Lives" t-shirt.

Whether that's because it serves as a silent indicator that I am trying to socially distance or because people find it really creepy, I do not know.

Ta, will take a look.

EDIT: very informative, thanks, and pleased to see I haven't been inadvertently killing people any more so than anyone else. Though it sounds like the best common solution is a surgical mask with a pair of tights over your head, I think I'll stick to the doubled-up buff.

Most people on this thread seem to be saying they aren't going. I suspect that's a bit of a self selecting sample, partly because of the thread title - you asked who else is *not* going. Clearly there are a lot of people who aren't going but, at a guess, I doubt this is more than half of climbers who regularly climb outside. I think what this thread shows is, as with most Covid related things the answer is 'it depends'. Where you are in the country, who 'vulnerable' you and your close contacts are, local wall facilities (how busy / what measures are in place), attitude of other local wall users and so on. Plus the risk profile will change over time as the second wave grows.

The guidance should probably be more detailed but it can't cover every situation and circumstance. The government can use blunt instruments like closing pubs or walls but they can't tell every business and every person in minute detail how they should be operating and living their lives. So using common sense and going with your own risk assessment has to be the way forward in most situations, the key point being not doing anything blatantly irresponsible such as ignoring SD or established rules like wearing face masks where required.

As climbers, we are familiar with risk assessing potentially dangerous situations and making decisions which could have serious consequences if the decision is wrong. It's not a perfect analogy in that with Covid it's not just about your own safety but there are certainly parallels. One of the similarities is that what's ok for one person would be too risky for another person. Both decisions are right for the individual involved. At the extremes, there are things which are almost certainly fine for most people and almost certainly not fine for most people. Covid is more complex of course but I think there are similar issues involved.

To be fair, with their Covid risk perception being completely different, they might not have even thought about it. They probably said they were being friendly and helpful, given their comment! After all, more pads, spotters and beter is generally a good idea with bouldering. You could have said "would love to but I'm getting on a bit so have to be careful about Covid". You could have even asked them to go somewhere else. It might have educated them. Or not... I suspect this was a case of both parties being unable to see things from the perspective of the other party. Of course I wasn't there so I'm just going by your description.

Yes, let’s stop there, I do not care who is going, I am not interested in why. 

I started the thread because I most people I know are going, and it’s never nice to feel the odd man out. It would appear that many others are taking my approach.

No they were being thoughtless, selfish and rude, only a totally f*ckwit can be unaware of social distancing.

You could have said "would love to but I'm getting on a bit so have to be careful about Covid

That is not easy, and very uncomfortable thing to do, and quite a few people will respond negatively at what they see as criticism of their actions and their right to do as they please.

You are trying to justify the unjustifiable, because you are a really nice bloke and because you strongly identify with climbers. Not all people are as nice as you.

It's also a bit self selecting because regular users of ukc are generally aged mid thirties and above. Very few people in their teens and twenties use the forums regularly now. But that's the main demographic at modern bouldering walls (maybe not lead walls). My experience was most of them are still going, as our local walls are at full capacity every day.

That’s interesting about the demographic.

Like I said, the reason for the thread was I felt the odd man out, not going, it’s been nice to see others are taking a similar approach.

Moving on, it is interesting to note that some people seem to consider that if you do not do the same as them it’s criticism. 

Last night Ratho wasn't too far short of being as busy as I have ever known it. I counted about 120 or so people at the peak (the maximum allowed capacity just now is 180, which I imagine is unlikely ever to be reached) and probably only about 15 of them were bouldering. Seemed like the usual wide age spread. So I reckon most people are going. 

I was there as well and I had also never seen it that busy before in the two years i have lived in Edinburgh. They definitely need to restrict the numbers down further as it was becoming tricky to just move around with people all over the place.. 

I didn't think it was too bad. Moving around isn't really an issue I would have thought because you never need be near anyonev more than A few seconds. I'm happy as long as I can be a couple of metres from others when belaying.

Given that Ratho last night was only at 2/3 capacity and must be the best ventilated climbing wall anywhere, I can imagine that some more airless walls operating at full capacity might be a problem. 

My biggest personal fear for the coming winter is that Ratho gets shut down again in a blanket climbing wall closure because other walls are deemed too risky.

Went down my local wall last night and it was rammed. Went back to reception and asked for a refund as I didn't feel comfortable being in there with no chance of distancing. This is the first time since the wall reopened that I've felt this way after having gone a couple times a week since they reopened.

Maybe I'm getting sensible in my old age, or it was just an excuse as I wasn't feeling totally motivated to climb. Either way, my grain de sel. 

It was 2,000 when I started to hunt you down...

Yes its not short of ventilation as its basically outside.. with a tarp to keep the rain out!

I've been avoiding walls until yesterday, partly because I'm being relatively cautious about covid, partly because I'd rather be outside in my free time in summer anyway; walking, swimming, scrambling if it's too wet to climb. Yesterday I went to the Freeklime bouldering wall in Huddersfield and it was great and I felt totally relaxed. They have an online booking system now to avoid overcrowding and plenty of other good covid related practices in place and I will definitely be going back frequently over the winter if it's allowed to stay open

Yes, a friend has suggested there as an option. 

He said it felt covid safe.

I think a bouldering wall has advantages over a leading wall in that there are no issues around sharing ropes, and if you are bouldering it is easier to keep out of people's way who come too close to you compared to being stuck on the spot whilst belaying

Which wall was that?

Possibly its not on to name them. They could have had an issue which has been resolved. This is someone's livelihood, and as its legal to open a wall and during these difficult times its hard enough as it is, .they can do without a naming and shaming

The infection rates in the student districts of Edinburgh are pretty scary just now.  Some look to be not much less than 1% of population with positive Covid test.   Just hope the students aren't going climbing.

https://public.tableau.com/profile/phs.covid.19#!/vizhome/COVID-19DailyDash...

There were certainly quite a few of studenty looking age. Maybe best be particularly wary of them, but if it's fair to go on the rule of not being within 2m of someone for 5 or 10mins, then I think the risk is manageable.

Obviously people are aware of SD but younger people are more relaxed about it. In fact a lot of climbers generally are, from what I've seen. It's an outdoors activity after all. It's also a relatively young, fairly middle class and very white activity, so the average Covid risk profile of the climbing population is a fair bit lower compared to the UK as a whole. People get used to that and a lot of people assume that everyone is chill about it. I think this will start to change as the second wave grows but at the moment I suspect a lot of people are still guided by memories of the halcyon days of summer when Covid wasn't particularly prevalent anywhere. So for all of these reasons, a significant proportion of the climbing population won't be particularly focused on SD.

However most climber are reasonable people, so if someone is a lot more risk averse and explains this, I'm sure most people would respect that - and they might think twice next time before intruding on someone's space without asking.

Sadly I see I climbers in a different light, whilst most a very pleasant, they are also one of the most self centred groups of people I have ever met and will always seek to justify the actions that they want to take. 

Unfortunately the current second wave in many cities seems to be primarily driven by large influx and mixing of students and these students make up a large proportion of wall users.

My experience in the last few weeks is somewhat different. I've been back to the wall a few times and have been struck by the obvious social distancing which seems to have now become almost sub-conscious norm. I see the same at the local crags  - but the reasons are pretty obvious to me. Climbers are by definition very risk aware.  There are no school groups at the wall now, so during the day the demographic is certainly white middle class, but at 60, I'm probably at around the average age. SD is not that hard!! The wall certainly felt safer than Asda, and critically, I felt like you were amongst people who had the intelligence to assess the risks, a make sensible judgements so as to be able to get on with life whilst not putting themselves or others in danger. 

I've not been to a bouldering wall since re-opening  - and won't be doing so  - I suspect the points you make about behaviour are more prevalent there? 

Ah - people like you are the "chosen" ones huh?  As I alluded to in some other thread, people of your age are, in mine and others experiences, the most stubborn at shunning mask wearing and social distancing.  So for you to suggest that your lead walls are safe by dint of them mostly being mostly used by folks in their 60s is deluded in the extreme.  And as for your implication that you won't use bouldering walls because they're mobbed by unintelligent youths - well good!  I don't want some mouth breathing pensioner standing right next to me at the wall.

Come to Kendal wall and see for yourself.......on second thoughts ....

Interesting view given your sport of choice 😜

I was thinking about outdoors but the same mindset applies at bouldering walls from what I’ve seen. Most people are distancing more than they would have done previously but not rigorously observing 2m+ at all times. This may be changing now - haven’t been for a couple of weeks (not due to Covid) so will be interesting to see what it’s like next time I go (unless Brum gets out in the red category and the walls get shut down again!). As you say, the demographic at lead walls, especially during the day, will be different. I think this goes to show that a lot depends on the exact demographic. 

That’s a bit harsh. It’s interesting you say this because from what I’ve seen in the few shops I go to (supermarkets, that’s about it), it’s younger people, especially men, who aren’t wearing face coverings. This might partly be due to the fact that my local area has a relatively young population and I usually go to the supermarket quite late, so there aren’t that many older people there.

I'd rather not name them. As I said this is the first time since lockdown "ended" that I've felt this way there, previously I've felt happy about the level of distancing and sanitation stations that are provided.

Very much so. You are closely involved in the climbing community and see this, as do I. I am not closely involved in, say, the golfing or football communities. I suspect someone who is would make similar judgements about them. 

Climbers like to think of themselves as "special". We aren't, we are just people. 

I think human nature is always going to be a bit selfish. We have evolved that way. Climbers are no better or worse than other groups of people. 

Went to the Depot today for the first time in about 4 weeks (not due to Covid). Masks or buffs are mandatory now except when actually climbing and almost everyone was wearing them (a couple of people weren’t, may be they were exempt). I suppose it makes sense. I actually found it was fine to boulder in a mask so didn’t bother pulling it down, except on harder problems. Not sure it made me feel safer as such but it makes sense and acts as a visual reminder that there’s shit happening so we need to SD etc.

For me, SD is key and that was fine - it wasn’t busy for the size of the wall and easy to find empty sections. Most of the clientele looked like students. I don’t usually go at weekends so don’t know if that’s normal.

Hope they stay open... find out tomorrow if West Mids is tier 3 (probably not) and if tier 3 entails wall closure (quite possibly, which is probably right...). 

I'm honestly super curious if there been any cases connected to any indoor walls? has anyone on here suspected they picked up covid from one?

I definitely thought walls could be a big spreader - considering amount of contact with surfaces and kids and groups going, but I would've thought if the virus liked transmitting in climbing walls wouldn't they ALL have had cases and staff sickness etc by now? 

e.g. think of all the uni students who use bouldering walls and all the student cases in major cities , wouldn't we be hearing about multiple cases connected to climbing by now? Which makes me think that the chalk at walls is somehow genuinely stopping it from transmitting, but obviously just my opinion, but could be wrong if there have been many cases suspected connected from climbing

It's too early to tell really. My thought would be that there's not that many climbing walls, but there's loads of pubs and bars.

The trouble is it's hard to tell where people picked up from, especially students - at the wall, at the gym, at the pub, in the lecture theatre? I'm sure it's possible by looking at cases very closes but there are so many cases now and track & trace is such a shambles that I doubt they have the resources for that. Track & trace seems to be focused on identifying contacts once someone is infected rather than figuring out where they caught it in the first place. Both aspects are important.

Buffs?  Pretty sure I've seen multiple reports on research into the efficacy of the various types of face coverings that concluded that this sort of neck based fabric garment  actually promotes the dispersal of droplets.

[Edit] There's this Forbes article, for example:  https://www.forbes.com/sites/brucelee/2020/08/09/study-14-face-masks-here-a...

[Edit 2] I have heard that being buff will help you recover if you get C19, but I wouldn't know anything about that....

That's right, the UK system has only ever tried to determine who might have been infected by the positive individual, not who that person was infected by.

This article gives some interesting reasons why it would be better to do both:

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/09/k-overlooked-variable-dr...

I guess. but then again wouldn't it also be pretty clear - people tend to climb in specific social groups and in uni clubs and it at least would spread to staff who work there, I would've thought by now at least one person on ukc would've reported an outbreak at a climbing wall or within climbers. I too thought climbing walls would be a breeding ground for the virus at first but I'm surprised that none have had to shut. Walls have been open for over 3 months, people have been outdoor climbing in groups for even longer. And not heard of a single outbreak? unless we're all asymptomatic is the other explanation. I feel safer climbing than going to a pub for sure. And it's a lot better for my mental health.

I visited UCR in Bristol, one Friday evening back in March.  By Sunday evening  both me and my partner had a sore throat and a cough on the Monday.  So yes, I'm convinced you can catch a virus at your local wall.

I went to TCA last week and was shocked at the number of people there, mid evening.  They might be adhering to guidelines but that doesn't mean climbers are spread uniformly throughout the building.  With a low ceiling and probably 'poor' ventilation and lots of twentysomethings, i shalln't be going again anytime soon. It's a shame but inevitable.

Being asymptomatic may be the second biggest threat from this virus.  I read in the Grauniad last week that some institution had done a load of random testing and concluded that only 15% of infected people had the three 'official' symptoms and that only another 15% had any other symptoms.  So 70% of people had no reason at all to make them think they should stay at home, or self isolate.

There was a rumour that a number of staff members at depot in Manchester were hit 2 weeks ago. Interestingly they have I think tightened up requirements  since then. 
 

I can easily be corrected as the info was third hand. 

The staff at Manchester are very good at mask wearing, they also have face shields and are behind plexiglass screens.

People in general at the wall don't seem to care about masks or social distancing. Mask are worn to walk in to the wall, then taken off straight away on not put back on until checking out. Rare to see anyone bouldering in a mask. Very little social distancing on the mats, lots of multi household groups climbing together and socialising.

Its why I have no intention of going peak times......

The biggest risk in these places is probably to staff members.

This morning's scientific briefing on TV has dissuaded me from visiting any walls for the foreseeable future. 

Alternatively, go while you still can

Presumably because they're usually populated with lots of younger people?

Its up to you, but being in my early 60's I would like to live, preferably without long covid

Hi Neil,

just back from the Depot in Manchester. They have tightened up mask wearing requirements, you now have to wear a mask at all times except when climbing though the majority of people were bouldering with their masks on today.

Chris

I'm not visiting my local climbing walls.

I was going to take my daughters for their first session, as a treat, as one of my local walls is generally pretty quiet anyway and has a nice system where you book out the kiddy part for your exclusive use for an hour. It's mainly time/times that canned that idea - for now - but I can't say I'm in a rush to book in the current situation.

We did do a bit of outdoor climbing in Yorkshire a couple of months ago, but it was pretty easy stuff on relatively unused bits of crag, in open air and crag well washed by recent rain, so minimal risk.

Thanks Chris. Take care. 

The number of people there included you.  TCA has a well publicised maximum capacity as well as a live counter on line, so it should’ve have come as a surprise.  
 

If you want to go to TCA you have to anticipate that it may, at some point during your visit, reach capacity.  If that makes you uncomfortable, don’t go.

Anyone in Merseyside after Wednesday. Thanks to Boris the Bungler.

Andy F

And what should Boris have done? Shut everything else down but had a special exemption for climbing walls? Let hospitalisations reach a point where hospitals run out of beds? If the answer that you are looking for is for the virus to have been fully eradicated earlier in the year then that would have involved a much longer shutting down of climbing walls, in all likelihood they still wouldn't have reopened.

A coherent plan for the country, with a working track and trace system not run by a pal with a CSE grade 3 in computing would be a start.

Andy F

That's outrageous, I won't have you say that! 

Dido Harding does not have a CSE grade 3 in computing

I've not been to my regular wall once since COVID hit.  Leaving it to younger folk to support and hopefully stay lucky.  It's meant plenty of outdoor climbing this summer.  But now the autumn weather has hit, I'm back to hill walking until either Covid is beat, or I can get climbing out doors again.

I bumbled into Dido once, randomly sat on a pile of suit cases at Heathrow airport.  good singer that lass.

Either that, or not making the initial monumental f*ck-up of ignoring it until it had spread f*cking everywhere. If we're talking hypotheticals, that is...

Well, face coverings of some sort. Only one person had a buff. Everyone else had masks.

The small wall I went to today didn’t require masks. That felt ok to me because there weren’t many people there. It’s one of those things, it probably make sense sense for everyone to wear one but no one will until they’re told to...

Anyway, I’m not optimistic on walls staying open beyond the end of November. 

Yeah not heard of any outbreaks and it could be because it’s not they higher risk (walls are pretty spacious after all) or the walls hush it up or the contact tracing doesn’t really work or any of the above... especially the latter!

I went to TCA Bristol once (rained off the crag) and thought it was claustrophobic. Wouldn’t be my idea of a Covid safe environment, if there is such a thing...

Is that still the case? I’d be surprised if they’ve mandated masks in Brum but not Mancs. 

I don’t blame them for that. Early days and all that. My issue is with the failure to anticipate the second wave and deal with it properly by having an effective test and trace, providing financial support for people to actually self isolate (what’s the point of track and trace otherwise?) and introducing restrictions early enough. The more I think about it, the more likely it seems we’ll have to have a hard lockdown. 

Really - in my experience the blue rinse (or Ron Hill) brigade are always well represented, and often in the majority.  Usually least mask wearing too.  

Whatever happened to Buffy the Virus Slayer?

Following the advice of the scientists three weeks ago would have been a start. See the news this morning. It seems SAGE were completely ignored, which is unforgivable in the situation we were in.

Apparently they recommended that we shut down for a couple of weeks and then started again (maybe repeated a couple more times before spring.) Or otherwise a more strict set of closures than we have actually got, begun 2-3 weeks ago. Now instead we will be under a strict set of restrictions for many months, as there is no way they are going to bring rates down like the spring lockdown did. And many more people will die as a result.

I hope the local walls survive. Fortunately I get the impression those in Liverpool are all pretty commercially successful and they have expanded to other areas of the country.

I'll see when I go tonight. It was mandated and signs were everywhere but no one seemed to care.

Did you know her brother was in Faithless?   Not a lot of people know that.

Interesting. The Birmingham one had almost total compliance. Just a couple of people without masks, may be they were exempt. And a few people were slow to put them back on after getting off the wall but on the whole the vast majority were wearing them the vast majority of the time when off the wall and quite a few while on the wall as well. It's one of those things, if people are asked they will generally do as requested.

I stand corrected. Totally different his evening. Everyone wearing masks whether on or off the mats. Most climbing in masks as well. Change of attitude, well done Depot Manchester.

I went to the Brum Depot again last night. Mask wearing compliance was high again. Lots of people though at 8pm, probably double the number at the weekend, mostly looked like students. Still possible to find quiet areas as most people seemed to just be standing around next to the mats. I was feeling a bit uncomfortable about the numbers though. The circuits area on the mezzanine, which is what I came for, was deserted as usual however.

I didn't even know she had a brother. 

Manchester Depot have reduced their allowed capacity as well. Meant queues to get in due to one in one out but, again, total step change in attitude for the better. 

Not seen queues yet but tend to go at the end of the day. I can imagine an hour or two earlier would be busy enough for one in one out. Sensible policy, though I fear all the big cities will be tier 3 soon enough and the walls will get closed - which would probably be right.  

I have no issues going to my local wall.  Face masks have to be worn at all times unless actually climbing which means many myself included just wear them throughout.  

I won't set foot in a pub or restaurant or anywhere serving alcohol as once the beers in common sense and any attempt to stay 2m apart goes out the window and even if you make efforts to stay apart from others you can't control others idiocy. I've not been in a bar or restaurant since February and won't go back until such point as I don't need to provide contact details. 

I would like places like walls and gyms to remain in business. I believe they are very important to physical and mental health. If we all boycott them that won't happen thus I'm going as long as I can. I consider them more important than getting rat faced. I can do that in my own house without contact with other humans! 

Aside from the wall I have no contact with other humans these days (I climb with my husband and he's the same). At the wall yes I touch holds others have touched but I clean or sanitise my hands regularly and we have to be at least one line apart thus I feel my risk is a lot less than going to a pub,  more than going to the supermarket which I do once a week but I don't believe the risk to be enough to justify the benefits - my sanity and health.

I'm not prepared to live what might be the rest of my life in my house as if there's no vaccine we're going round in the current circles for all eternity. Right now I'm nearly 47, my risk of snuffing it from covid is low, a few more years and it will be higher along with the missed smear tests and breast scans I should have had but now won't get because covid stopped the NHS in Scotland, frankly I'll take my chances down the wall.

Excellent

That sounds very depressing, we have had the occasional meal out, not really pub people though.

Thats rather judgemental, people go to the pub without getting rat faced, though obviously if this is what you do, better to avoid.

This sounds rather dreary.

Well I will be living my life as if there is no vaccine, because there is currently no vaccine, I am climbing regularly outside, go for the odd meal out, have flown and will again, just climbing walls are not that important to me, but as winter proceeds I may reassess. 

Your final comment is key - walls aren’t that important to you but they are to other people. Whereas many people are perfectly happy to forego pubs, restaurants and general social contact outside indoor and outdoor climbing. I’m certainly in that category. Having said that, the main difference for me has been not going into the office. Don’t tend to go to pubs much or have non-climbing social contact outside work anyway...

Do what you like of course, but no one's going to slobber all over you and give you covid in a restaurant. I'm sure there are some pubs that haven't managed (or that can't be arsed) to work within the restrictions, but all my experiences in pubs have been sitting for table service in pleasant quiet places. Not felt remotely covidy compared to the wall, which does seem a bit risky to me.

Me too. The wall is the one thing that I'd really miss if there's more restrictions or another lockdown.

Not everyone gets arseholed when they go out for dinner...

All depends what keeps you sane, but I think most would agree it's a good idea to have a bit social interaction, just in case you and your fella are starting to develop some really odd habits but not noticing it in the absence of feedback. When you do see other people, it could be awkward

Depends where you are. I imagine Kendal pubs are quiet. Having said that, I went for an evening walk which took me past a few city centre bars and they were all largely empty. Felt very quiet even for a Monday night.

Walls are certainly risky but it’s easy to move around and socially distance. Can’t really do that in a pub now that you have to be seated - so if a group arrives and sits next to you (some of those tables are uncomfortably close), what do you?

Someone on my local club’s mailing list suggested going to the pub after the wall tomorrow because it’s ok to sit in the pub garden in a group of up to six. We are tier 2 so yes it’s allowed but really, if people think they can sit with someone at the same table for an hour and not have a decent chance of getting infected, they are deluded. 

Not possible in the pubs I've been in. You're at a table, and no one else can sit there. You stand at the door, you're seated, and you stay with who you came in with. Staff wear a mask. When you get up for a piss, you wear a mask. It really is fine.

Some of the tables are a bit close from what I’ve seen... Still, the risk of transmission between groups is probably not high with those measures. Within groups is a different matter.

I actually thought about going into one of the pubs I went past as there was a large area empty but then I thought - why take the risk? Guess I’m just too risk averse with this thing and I’ve got beer in the fridge anyway. If it was warmer, I’d be ok sitting outside if it wasn’t busy.

Thing is, I’ve done a fair bit of serious climbing which many people wouldn’t go anywhere near. Those were calculated risks though and I felt in control. With this thing I don’t feel in control, I feel powerless. 

Another thing that probably makes a difference is how much covid risk you get through work. If like you, you work at home, then you've got control over all the risk. But I've been seeing a clinic full of patients every day since June so I'm pretty blase these days.

Immaterial for me - I've caught the f*cker now anyway!

I suspect that this distinction is key; unless of course you like ice climbing, and have a really - really - big fridge!

Sorry to hear that. Hope it hasn’t spread to your local pub! Can’t be having the beer infected. 

The problem is that current evidence seems to suggest that in an enclosed indoor space where people are un-masked and talking, 2 metres is not a magic impermeable barrier, even if the tables are spaced by that much.

See: https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3223

Misha tovarish , this thread, for me at least, and I am the OP, is not an argument or even a debate, I started it because most of my mates are going to climbing walls, and I felt the odd one out, which is never nice. I was just interested if other people where taking another approach. It has not been a criticism of other peoples actions however many people seem to consider that if one makes a different decision to them, that one is criticising their actions, and very often this is not the case and certainly not here. I have examined the information and my own circumstances and concluded that currently I do not think walls are right for me, however I have stated more than once that this may change.

However, back to your comment, which is interesting from a Social Sciences point of view in that the people in a climbing wall have very different views on what it is for.

1. for me its mainly a place for socialising, which makes covid difficult, and a bit of feeding the rat whilst the weather is poo, and a bit of training.
2. for some its the only climbing they do, its exceptionally important.
3. for others who climb outside its way of keeping fit for the next season.
4. for some its just a way of keeping fit, the climbing is incidental.
5. for others its their business, their entire financial future is invested in it, just like pub owners and taxi drivers.
6. for others its a job they passionately enjoy.
7. for others its just a boring job.

I do think we could find other reasons why people are there, and as a person interested in the Social Sciences next time I go I may not even climb, just observe, over a coffee and brownie, at last a reason to go and not piss about climbing

You commented on how "dreary" and "depressing" you thought Fiona's choices were. It may not be what you intended, but that certainly comes across as criticism.

Oh thats was, absolutely, I considered most of her posting very judgemental.

I consider that way she is doing things is very dreary, though obviously she is free to make that choice, it does not impact me.

I considered her comments regarding pubs and bars very judgemental of other peoples choices, and ignored the fact that many people go to a pub for a quiet drink, sometimes not even to socialise but to get some solitude. Not everyone in a pub is rat arsed.

Also her reasons for going to walls were purely selfish, in that its what she wants and she supports them so they will be there for her, no mention of the owners who must be frantic with worry and the workers, some whom of have to go, to put bread on the table, they do not have the choice to work from home, and would perhaps rather not be in that environment.

So yes I was, but thats one reply out of a very long thread, and as this not a troll I did reply, and the thread title was "Who is not going to climbing walls" so not really clear why she felt the need to intervene, but hey ho its a free world and a public forum.

Although your food and drink will generally be prepared and served by the same youngsters who will out socialising as normal when not working!   

Nothing's foolproof.

It became obvious some time ago that we're going to be living through the pandemic for a long time yet. So, whatever I feel I want to avoid I'm going to be avoiding basically permanently - we're not going to eliminate the virus, we just need to keep case numbers and therefore hospital admissions at a level we can cope with.

My view is that it's unnecessary for everyone to try to do everything they can to avoid catching it - that's overkill and has too many side effects. For me, the right balance is going to the wall as normal (that's important to me) and having the occasional meal or drink out. I want to support the businesses, and I've enjoyed myself when I've been out.

Very similar to the way I assess risk in climbing. I don't eliminate it (far from it, I go out soloing on mountain crags all the time!) but I reduce it to what I think is a reasonable level (I don't solo routes anywhere near my limit, obviously).

Misha - cheers, I've got mild symptoms only, just hoping it doesn't drag. And I didn't get it at the wall or in the pub, I got exposed to it through someone with symptoms getting a false negative test...

Agreed.  I think that's what the "new normal" thing is about.  Hopefully it won't *genuinely* be that, but holing yourself up in the house for even a year or two is not great, so within reason and a base set of "greater good" type restrictions people really need to find their own comfort level.

What a horrible reply.

I am a bit confused now. On one hand, you don't want to go to walls and you think people who do still go may be doing so for selfish reasons. On the other hand, you are worried about the owners who must be frantic with worry about closing their walls and the workers who may need to still go to the walls to put bread on the table.

Alan

Edit - I originally said it’s not really horrible, just confused - then read Steve’s response again and the first part is a bit unpleasant really. 

Steve, I’m not sure it matters whether people go for ‘selfish’ reasons (training, enjoyment, social), at the end of the day they support the walls.

What’s a bit selfish I suppose is I want the walls to be open right now but not busy. There’s an easy solution though, at least where I live - go after 8pm. I imagine the wall wouldn’t be viable if it were always as empty as it is right now. Only 5 other people here including the staff member. Good time to be here!

I totally agree that everyone's got to make their own risk assessments and decide what they're comfortable with (within the limits of current regulations, etc. etc.)..

But (unless I misread you) you seemed to be saying that it was "not possible" for the virus to be transmitted between different tables in a pub, "no one's going to slobber all over you and give you covid in a restaurant", and so on, so I wanted to add some evidence on that point. Obviously people might decide it's an acceptable/worthwhile risk for them, but it's not no-risk.

Hope you're better soon and your self-isolation isn't too boring!

Not at all Alan. I started this thread as I have said umpteen times because I felt out of step with my climbing partners, nearly all are going to the wall and I felt the odd one out, and I just asked if others are not going. At no point have I previously suggested that anyone going to a wall is doing a bad thing. 
There has been no need for people going to the wall to reply, this was about not going to the wall.

After many replies Fiona jumped in with her reply.

I commented her reasons are selfish, not other peoples, and I repeat I have not at any point (I think, and if I did I apologise) suggested that other peoples decision to go is wrong.

I considered it a bit rich to be so judgemental  about people going to pubs, and in fact she did what I seem to be being accused of, in saying she was not going to the pub, and criticising those that do. Wheras I am not going to the wall, and not criticising those that do.


I will repeat, I do not think that other people going to the wall is wrong.

I will leave it at that, because this eventually gets into a tiresome he said, she said, they said.

You'll probably be surprised how Covid secure most pubs and restaurants are if you haven't been in since February.

It seems strange to boycott pubs but want to keep gyms in business.

I have been in probably over 20 pubs/restaurants across the country since they reopened. All control it slightly differently but not in a single one of them have I been as close to someone as I have in a climbing wall or supermarket.

Personally I think you're missing out, pubs and restaurants, in my view, have never been so good!

Misha , most people are selfish, I am, in fact its rather odd that the word selfish is seen as so derogatory when being centered is such a desirable state.

It does not matter why people go to climbing walls, its no ones business but their own, just as going to the pub is no ones business but their own.

Bet you I end up in a climbing wall if still open, I will give in eventually, I am of weak will.

 

I don't see why it's "strange" -- in the end, it all comes down to whether a particular risk seems acceptable/worthwhile to you.

If going to pubs or restaurants isn't particularly important to you, but climbing is, you might decide the former isn't worth the risk but the latter is.

The point is she doesn't know if they are risky or not.

Boycotting a business that you used to use, just because you imagine they will be risky (without actually seeing for yourself), seems rather unfair on the business to me.

You keep using that word.  I do not think it means what you think it means.

If you boycott a business you're deliberately trying to do the business harm, rightly or wrongly, to make a point.  It's a form of protest.

Choosing not to go to the pub while you wish them well and hope they'll be ok is not a 'boycott' and it seems a bit disingenuous to describe it as such.

Can we stop talking about pubs please, its a climbing forum and this is a thread about climbing walls, if people chose to go to pubs, restaurants or whatever is up to them.

Uh whatever. Concentrate on the one word and ignore the content of my post if you wish. 

Thanks.  Likewise please do feel free to ignore the point I was trying to make, which is that your misuse of that one word subverts the content of your post. 

Unless you do mean to imply that people choosing to steer clear of the pub, climbing wall or whatever are in some way trying to punish those businesses rather than simply trying to look after themselves and others, in which case uh whatever.

boycott

/ˈbɔɪkɒt/

verb

withdraw from commercial or social relations with (a country, organization, or person) as a punishment or protest.

"we will boycott all banks which take part in the loans scheme"

Well she did say she was avoiding pubs until they no longer take your contact details. You could class that as a boycott of sorts. 

Ok lets talk pubs. 

Saying that you are going to avoid pubs until they no longer take contact details is a personal choice, not one i take, but fair enough. But to then go on to suggest that the people who go are, are getting rat arsed, is insulting to the people who make a different choice and  unnecessary. Its like saying I am not going to climbing walls because it full of beanie wearing youths with no concern for social distancing. 

No, just saying that it feels lower risk than the climbing wall or supermarket. I don't think you're lowering your risk of catching covid much more by avoiding pubs and restaurants.

The BMJ paper makes it clear that if you are spending a prolonged period of time in an enclosed indoor space with people unmasked and talking, 2 metre social distancing is not a magic impermeable barrier. 

Being "Covid-secure" according to government guidelines is going to reduce the risk of transmission, but not remove it.

If going to pubs and restaurants is important to you, you might decide that reduced level of risk is fine and worthwhile. Or you might decide that you'd rather spend your personal "risk budget" elsewhere.

It's not a binary "risky or not", y/n. It's various degrees of risk and how people weigh them against their personal priorities.

I’m not going to pubs and restaurants. Rarely do anyway. Yeah the risk is perhaps not high if it’s not busy but why accept any level of risk when it’s easy to have no risk? Whereas the wall is important to me so I’ll accept the risk but manage it (over 100 people at the Depot this eve but still possible to find empty wall space and the mezzanine circuits / training area is pretty much deserted as usual = perfectly acceptable risk for me).

I’m just not convinced about pubs. Relatively small rooms. Sitting in the same place for a long time. Other groups not that far away unless it really is empty. Staff are going to be vectors.

Risk budget is precisely how I see it. 

I don’t think sitting in a pub/restaurant with other people talking quietly to each other more than 2m away is any riskier than being in a climbing gym with 100 people breathing heavily.

I don’t go to the pub to get shitfaced or anything, me and the wife might pop in on a weekend afternoon for a couple. Tomorrow night we’re going to a Mexican pub for dinner for my birthday. 
if I didn’t feel comfortable after trying the pubs before I wouldn’t go. 
If we don’t use them we could lose them for good.

I understand that but I think I’m in quite a high risk bubble as it is. My wife works in a school, my eldest daughter works in climbing gym, my youngest daughter is at school and works in kfc and I work in a paper mill with 400 employees.

Going to a pub is probably the least riskiest time for me!

Well that’s fair enough, my level of ‘inherent’ risk is as low as it can get for someone living in a large city (live alone, WFH, supermarket once a week), so doing anything feels like extra risk. Then it comes down to level of risk and how important that activity is for me - which will be different for other people. 

Same with me. and my wife.Mixture of both.We have a list of pubs/restaurants which we consider well managed from a Covid aspect and we go to those. There are only a few not on the list.

I don't know where people on here are from but I'm wondering if it might be a north/south thing.

I'm in Kent and pretty much all the pubs I've been in have been very safe. My sister went away for a week and went through North wales, then Whitby, Blackpool etc and she didn't go in any of the pubs because she could see they were not as Covid secure as the ones down here. She went in one in Scotland because it was well set up.

Just an observation.

Might just be.  TBH the feedback i have gotten up here is that the visit to the pub is no longer worth the bother.  Having to book a table, sit in a booth with plastic barriers, wear a mask, meet in restricted numbers.  Its not much better than having a pint in your own house.  No blame on the pubs, its just no fun anymore and zero atmosphere.

My guess is northerners dont like this and are weighing up their risk budget and deciding its not worth it.  Southerners, its probably not much different to normal

My experience in the NW a few weeks ago was that no one was giving CV a second thought, my family and friends included. I was beginning to feel like I was a bit paranoid with my preference for staying outdoors, not passing phones around etc 

Hahaha that made me chuckle. You could be right, we like to look at the sea, estuary or river views not talk to people about whippets..

My mate Martin Roberts was the cyclist in question.

Just to throw something else in the mix, no one has mentioned the NHS Covid app yet. It’s a good way to reduce the risk of spreading Covid if you were to get it. So far I’ve had two notifications of potential exposure followed by a message saying don’t worry (well the first time I didn’t get a don’t worry message but that was a glitch which they’ve fixed now). Today’s one was probably from one of the two walls I’ve been to as I’ve not been anywhere else since Sunday (I suppose it could be from the supermarket on Sunday). It’s a good reminder to keep following best practice and more importantly I’d know if I need to self isolate (the finger board might get some use the ). It does rely on other people having the app and getting tested if they have symptoms and clearly it won’t stop me getting infected but it’s a useful tool to mitigate the risk of spread and I’d urge everyone to use it. 

Seconded. Obviously the app is dependent on the testing system (in terms of people's ability to get tests and how fast the results turnaround is), and also on a critical mass of other people having downloaded the app.

But it's not dependent on the catastrophe that is Serco's contact-tracing, which is a huge point in its favour.

(And it's not the privacy trash fire that the original app - the one that got ditched -- was.)

Doesn't hurt, might genuinely help a bit.

Is the app not also a serco exercise despite the NHS branding?

Nope!

https://fullfact.org/health/Serco-test-and-trace/

Excellent, thanks. In which case I'll probably download it.

You’re probably ok, they’re not calling it a glitch anymore though: “The messages are a default privacy notification from either Apple or Google, which provide the underlying contact-tracing technology.The alerts will still appear, but now a follow-up message from the government will tell people to ignore them.”

I got one too, there’s no way I’ve been in close enough contact with anyone to trigger it. 

The glitch (if that's the right word) was that it didn't originally send the follow up notification. I still find it odd - why tell people they may have been exposed when most of the time it's actually fine?

Interesting that the walls and gyms in T3 South Yorkshire and Manchester have been allowed to stay open, whereas in Liverpool they were shut and subsequently reopened. 

Presumably only for Tier 3 residents? Have they had guidance to that effect?

No idea. The travel thing is advisory so I’d be surprised if anyone is paying attention to where wall/gym customers live and anyway that info may be out of date. It’s an interesting question though. 

A lot could depend on how local authorities approach enforcement of the guidance, if there is any apart from the general travel guidance. I live halfway between Leeds and Sheffield and use walls in both most winters so this is getting problematical.

I don't think any authorities can 'enforce' something which is advice rather than law. The travel restrictions are only advisory. So it's down to the walls if they want to make their own rules about only accepting climbers from their 'local' area (can't see many walls doing that!). 

Does anyone know whether there has been any known virus transmission at climbing walls? If not, I think it certainly means that surface transmission must be very low risk.

Ok, N=1:

I got tested positive for Covid-19 on Friday. Looking at the possible location where I was infected it's most likely the climbing gym or dentist. 

The dentist poked around for 45minutes. The dentist did disinfect all the tools but noticed the handles didn't get the same level of attention.  There did have a big air purifier running and the dentist was wearing a mask.

I have been to the supermarket once, but choose after 21.00 so it's quiet, going to a large supermarket that had lots of space, wearing a mask, using the self-checkout. So I assume that is a lot smaller risk. Other activities I did was solo bike riding and solo running. Working at home. No public transport used, only my car and my bike. 

My climbing partner had symptoms one day before I did, but she tested negative. 

What does this mean? I don't know, can't go back in time and test the exact location, air, or surfaces. But in my specific case, the climbing gym is high on the possible locations where I was infected. 

Also possible that your climbing partner got a false negative. However it must be possible to pick it up from someone else at the wall as it’s an enclosed space with limited ventilation. Hope you get better soon. 

Looks like a false negative to me.

In my experience: a colleague had symptoms, tested negative, came into work. His symptoms worsened and he developed a temperature. He then tested positive. Two of us at work then developed symptoms. I tested positive, the other tested negative. Her symptoms worsened, and then she tested positive.

Doesn't look to me like relying on a single negative test result is the right thing to do. As far as I know there isn't a robust estimate of the sensitivity (false negative rate) of the PCR test because there's no gold standard to compare it to; but estimates are as low as 70%.

I see the foundry in Sheffield is now opening at 8.00 Monday to Friday and think closing at 12.00pm for the younger members.

Good Twitter thread from a virologist about how people can test negative, still be infectious, then test positive (this is re: the White Hopuse super-spreader event, but the explanation of the basic principle is generally applicable):

https://twitter.com/KYT_ThatsME/status/1313157554063708160

I can't tell you anything about climbing walls, but I can tell you this: I was infected having been at work with a colleague who had symptoms and later tested positive. Both of us wore PPE all the time we were either with patients or out interacting with colleagues, and we followed infection control protocols. We were never in the same room. However, we did share a kitchen where no one had specific responsibility for infection control.

Looks to me like surface transmission is a thing, although it could conceivably have been airborne still. Either way the conclusion is the same, you don't have to be in 2m of anyone to catch it. 

From my anecdotal experience, it also looks like you are much more contagious when you have symptoms. The dude I got it off was at work with full-on symptoms and gave it to 2 out of 4 of us. I isolated from as soon as my symptoms started, and I didn't give it to anyone as far as I know (and I've been in contact with all my contacts from the day I was exposed). Of course I'm not suggesting anyone draws any conclusions from this anecdote, but it's an infinitesimal piece of the jigsaw of how the thing behaves in certain circs.

Yes that was my prior understanding, but I'm talking about false negatives in my anecdote - both people who initially tested negative were symptomatic when they were first tested.

The dude I got it off was at work with full-on symptoms and gave it to 2 out of 4 of us.

Wow, i bet he's popular now!    Unbelievable!

He'd testing negative, then his symptoms worsened while he was at work. 

Is it policy to come to work with symptoms regardless of a negative test?  I guess he just thought it was a head cold, or flu or something he was spreading around though eh? 
Glad I'm not one of his patients.

I've not heard of any, but the difficulty is that with a week's delay before symptoms appear it is often very hard to put your finger on where transmission actually occurred.

If we had everyone isolate who had a cold in winter the economy would basically stop.  That's part of the issue.

In normal times maybe, though I've never been to see an optometrist who was showing the symptoms of a cold, flu or whatever and I'd be quite angry about it if I did.

Currently though the economy is already much more borked than it ever could be just by people going off sick who should go off sick, and I think people failing to stay away from work with CV symptoms is a good deal more likely to exacerbate that than if they do.

The colleague wasn't a optom - but yeah, actually we do have a sickness policy that provides a strong incentive for optoms to come into work when we're sick. That said, I don't think it's that easy to pass on a virus in the consulting room because of normal infection control procedures - I don't think I've ever caught a virus from a patient. But I never use a direct ophthalmoscope to try to examine anyone's retinas, so I'm not right up in anyone's face the way optometrists used to be (and some still are).

It’s a good example why it should no longer be socially acceptable to come in to work with Covid / flu symptoms.

Blimey, that doesn't seem right.  I guess I shouldn't be surprised, but if that's inappropriate at the best of times it's doubly so now.

More generally, when you mix market forces into healthcare, you get a load of incentives that run counter to patients' interests.