UKC

Reading another post I came across the following :

A winter skills course isn't a requirement for the club I'm in. Being able to use axe and crampons appropriately is though if coming out with us in winter. We basically want someone to have those skills so they can walk safely with other members. We don't care how you got the skills so long as you have them, so alpine or high altitude trekking experience is fine providing it covered axe and crampon use. Basically being able to self arrest with an axe, knowing how to use an axe for walking on different gradients of snow/ice, how to cut steps, how to put on and walk in crampons etc etc.

Got me thinking - when last did anyone ever cut steps?

If it steep / hard enough to need to cut steps as opposed to kicking your feet in then wouldn't crampons be worn? Or is it a hypothetical - what if you went out without crampons but were carrying an axe type thing? 

Mind you, thinking about it, I've cut the odd groove (step?) in steep ice to place a screw into

in 1977

Would that have been Jan/Feb/March or Nov/Dec of 1977 - just so we can track when the last account of step cutting took place?

5 February 2009

Sharp Edge Gully on Blencathra, I didn't have crampons and only one walking axe. I remember it getting quite steep near the top.

Sharp Edge Gully (I/II)#photos

It was good fun and brought home how good Jimmy and Robin were with their ascents of the big face routes on the Ben.

On a ski tour a couple of years ago. It was quicker to cut a few steps up to the ridge than faff with crampons (ridge was bare rock, snow was v hard).

I can't remember the exact year, but it was in the late 1980s on Paglia Orba in Corsica. It was spring time and should by then have been snow free, but our trip coincided with a more extended winter than usual and a sudden cold snap. Whilst we had taken walking axes we didn't have crampons. In the final exposed gully approach to the summit we encountered "rock" hard neve too had to kick steps in and had to cut a neat staircase to the summit. Surprisingly tiring.

Every year since 1979. Well, there might have been the odd year when I didn't, but not many.

Fast and efficient when done in small sections, otherwise stop and fit crampons.  I use it a lot when ski touring or on one axe adventures.

Never. Useful if you have short sections of neve to cross on otherwise snow free terrain but that’s rare in proper winter conditions.

I’d rather take crampons than an axe if I had to choose between the two. 

I've never had to cut steps outwith a winter skills course. 

In reality it's useful for short sections of hard snow or neve where it could save you time by cut steps rather than put crampons on and then off again. 

However, if you've ever had to cut steps for any length of time you'll know how much effort is involved, putting crampons on takes a couple of mins for sure but it will save you the time and effort in the long run. The exception would be if it literally was sections of hard snow, then grass, then snow, and grass again- but how often is that going to happen, there is always an alternative. 

I think there is a place for it and its a skill worth having, how often you'll use it is another thing.  

Personally? It was a few weeks ago in the Alps: crossing a small glacier wearing trainers whilst descending off a rock route, having not taken crampons (deliberately).  

I wouldn't say cutting steps is an 'essential' winter skill for beginners - if people lack experience in winter its best to emphasise 'take crampons and put them on if there's any doubt' (KISS). 

Oh, and don't wear trainer!!   

April this year. 30 feet of icy neve below summit of Cul Mor, Assynt. I had crampons with me 

a couple of years ago whilst running and wanting to climb savage slit with a skinny rack and wearing running shoes. The snow field was still huge. we both took a couple of sharp stones at the bottom of the great slab and used that to gain access to Savage slit. Climbing wasn't much fun...we had to use the biggest nut (single 1 to 10) to break detached ice from the cracks to climb and protect the climb. Brushing cruddy snow from ledges too, and it was running with water. It was in late April of May if I remember correctly.

Willingly as a planned activity never ( I was almost born in the 80s)

On Sentiero Oswaldo Orsi in the Brenta Dolomites on a VF trip in 2011. Had to traverse across a steep snow patch in approach shoes. Cutting steps is a bit of a misnomer, it was more a case of poking steps with a walking pole. 

I'd disagree Misha...

for basic winter skills I was taught - and still subscribe to - the principles of:

Axe but no crampons - OK

Axe + crampons -  GOOD

Crampons and no Axe - DANGER!!

Rules are possibly meant to be broken but... basically, if it's slopey enough and the snow is hard enough to want crampons then you really need to have an axe out to allow you self arrest.  

Last April, in Torridon. About 5m at the top of the path to Ruadh-stac Mor from Coire Mhic Fhearchair, just where it comes onto the ridge. I cut steps most years, but rarely more than a dozen in a day. It's good for added security on short sections of hard snow, but when it's not worth getting crampons out.

The flip side arguement is that with good crampon technique you should never fall/slip.

This year in North Wales on bristley ridge when I stupidly didn't pack winter gear because I was convinced it would all be gone before we got there. Otherwise, a few years back on great end central gully when a friend turned up with really crap crampons.

Occasionally. Have to say that the “different” types of step that are taught are a complete waste of time. I can’t see anyone these days spending hours cutting steps up a slope 

Same here. I've quite often cut steps whilst out running. Like Erick above (and with him on the day he describes) I've used wee jaggy boulders to smash out steps in hard snow whilst running. Works rather well.

It depends. If you’re good on your feet and can judge the situation, crampons only is fine as a way to save weight and bulk while still being able to move quickly. Axe only is lighter but progress is going to be slow with cutting steps. Plus personally I’d be more likely to slip while swinging an axe to cut steps than while going up a slope in crampons.

Of course in practice it’s rare that the extra weight of an axe or crampons is going to make enough of a difference to justify taking only one of the two. Trail running (not really crampon compatible anyway) and ‘up and over’ type routes would be the obvious examples.

Most of the time I would take both. 

March 2010 in the Lake District. It was a combination of: being curious at what it would be like, the terrain not looking too steep (it was steeper than it looked) and not being arsed to get the crampons out of the bag which was something I almost instantly regretted! 

I did it a couple of years ago one spring when there was one remaining steep patch of neve that we had to go up. I was in winter boots, but my friend wasn't and we weren't carrying crampons. He was a relative novice in winter conditions. I kicked and cut steps for him to get up the slope. He had an axe for balance and had practiced arresting, but was no good at cutting steps. It was very effective. 

blimey; doing that on the run!!...

on a slightly less facetious note. me too. this summer in the alps to descend a wee patch of glacier remnant, having deliberately taken an axe and no crampons.

but, there's cutting steppes and there's bashing dents in the ice.

can you do it in classical style?....

January 1997

I cut steps in last year to cross old snow and earlier this year in the Lakes to get up some banked out path - I could have just walked around this though.

3 years back on Lords Rake with the wife on her first winter day out in microspikes. I went ahead and cut steps on the top section as she followed. Now she's got the bug and kitted up with a good year of mixed behind her.

I meant 'whilst out on a run' rather than when actually running!

In the UK - last winter. Dropping down at the end of a day without any snow and finding a steep bit of path that had been stuck in the shade - my boots were fine but my dad's weren't edging well so I cut steps down the hard snow patch and off we went down for coffee (proved useful leaving axe on bag unintentionally)

I'd agree its something probably quickly forgotten after a skills course but useful to have in the toolbox. 

23 December 2014, descending the top of Coire Cath nam Fionn between Monadh Mòr and Beinn Bhrotain on a run where I'd have had crampons in my bag but judged them unnecessary for a few steps.

This summer in Norway. Was glacier walking with summer boots and C1 crampons, there was a steep bit of ice we had to go over, way more comfortable cutting steps than bashing your toes in with soft boots and crampons with tiny frontpoints

Just realised I blogged this as 'so much slower than running or even part-running, but it was definitely a 'boots' trip and you'll rarely see me running far in boots…'

Last winter in Scotland.  Had crampons but it was just one steep hard section of ice/snow.  Quicker than putting  crampons on.

I guess its a dying art.  Most everyone you see on any hill with snow, now carries two technical axes and the latest crampons, and many appear to use their crampons from the minute they first encounter snow until they return back off it.

It really does surprise me the conditions in which some people seem to feel crampons are necessary. That and the black looks you sometimes get when you trot by without them!

Probably every year since 1975. Not extensively, but just to get over a short sections without putting crampons on. Although there are plenty of times I go out without crampons, I've never been out without an axe. If weight isn't an issue (and it often isn't) I take my Chouniard Zero, as its much better than my newer axes for step cutting and sits better in the hand.

Cheers, David

This year when climbing up to Beinn Fionnaidh and there were a couple of sections of hard neve but mostly rock. We could have gone around but it got very steep either side and easier to cut a few steps. 

As for wearing crampons too long, we were descending from SCNL a few winters back and were only really learners in winter conditions and both have disabilities (fused back, arthritis) and we encounted a couple of bits of black ice on the steep path. We decided it was probably better to suffer crampons on rocky ground than take a slip. A group of climbers gave us the dirty looks whilst they passed us at speed only to all end up on their arses just before the nasty step above the waterfall. They were a lot slower after that. However, we bring a set of microspikes for those conditions now.

On the Cobbler path (the one between the central and north peak), in about April this year. Had an axe and crampons but couldn't be bothered with the faff so just cut steps up about 50m of hard snow. 

prevention is better than cure.

plenty of instances where crampons and walking pole/poles are preferable to an axe only, or even axe and crampons. generally where the terrain is too shallow to enable plunging an axe (much of the summit day of mt Blanc was done in this manner).

sure 'the book' says never use crampons without an axe, but then 'the book' is full of generalisations and over simplifications. anyone with any mountaineering expereince will know that you spend the first year or so learning how to do everything by the book, then the rest of your climbing/mountaineering carreer learning how to safely tear up 'the book'!

I have had to cut steps the last few winters on snowdon for the people iv come across out in trainers and clearly in trouble on steep ground

Hi Misha

I witnessed somebody fall when tripping over crampons (Central Trinity, on very hard ice) and it was their partner's axe that saved her.

I often climb with only one axe on easier routes so if I ever dropped an axe it wouldn't feel so serious. It's similar with chopping a few steps. Again if caught out without crampons or one fell off (witnessed on Gardyloo Gully, going through the slot), chopping steps saved the day.

And besides does it not add another dimension to the climbing experience on that day.

Multiple times every year in the Uk and abroad:

For short sections where putting crampons on and off would be a faff

Where someone with me has had a broken or dropped crampon

Where someone has been wearing crampons but felt nervous on moderately steep ground to give them easier footing for short sections.

One experience stands out. It was I think late Spring 2016. A group of about 6-8 friends wanting to head up the Buachaille and bag the Munros.  But they were only summer hikers. I brought one axe (and a rope incase), and chopped a set of gigantic letterbox steps up the remaining bits of neve, and all made it happily up. The rest of the day was in glorious sunshine with practically no snow was encountered, so I think it was a pragmatic use of the axe to enable a day that would've not been possible if the group all had to have their own axes and crampons (and the knowledge to use them safely) for about 3 small sections of neve.

Hmm, guess I must not be getting out enough in the marginal seasons then as haven't required to resort to the ancient craft of step cutting - either that or I manage to walk round any sections that require step cutting

It does make me wonder though about "modern" tools (that have been around for the last 5+ years at least) - how easy it to step cut with curved tools with handles etc - the merits of plunging v dagger has been discussed about these yet havent seen anyone mention step cutting problems? Is that because they are more climbing axes and walking axes are generally straight shafted and it is these that are used for step cutting? Just idle wondering.

Didnt uli steck die becuase he was making an acclimitisation run wearing crampons with walking poles? Or was that pure speculation? 

Its because they've got more money than sense, or just more money. On the walk in every time my crampons touch rock I'm thinking "that's 1 pence that's 2 pence!"

This

Plus 2 steps every time I stop on steep ground, to take the weight of my calf's and add security! 

Also while not really step cutting as such, while topping out over the rim of the cornice where the snow's to soft for the axes to bight, I found myself just battering out deep horizontal post holes getting my arms in up to the elbows and getting enough purchase this way!

Occasionally when winter walking, when all there is, is a few feet of snow between snow-free slopes, and its quicker and easier than putting crampons on. Probably a couple of winters ago since the last time.

And sometimes to make a more comfortable stance for a "photo stop", as my calf muscles aren't what they were!

Last winter, and most before that. Usually just a few to get across a slope without putting crampons on. Come to think of it, I think it's usually more in the spring than winter. In winter you know you need crampons at some point, so just put them on. In spring there are often consolidated individual snow patches on an otherwise dry slope. Cutting a few steps is usually much quicker than faffing with crampons in these situations. 

I find it amusing that in the UK folk will slip and slide around in conditions that actually would be a lot easier in crampons because someone might think they look weak or something.  I put my crampons on when I hit the snow and take them off when I'm off it. 

I was making my way back from Lac Blanc in Chamonix a couple of years ago along the path, which was decidedly 'mixed'  got passed while taking some photos by a group, sans crampons.

A while later we saw them some way below us, the whole group having taken a slip off a well defined path with a nasty camber on it.  They were very fortunate that it was not a terrain trap, although judging by the rocks they ended up amongst there would have been some bruises

I find it amusing that people deploy crampons at the first sight of snow and plod round in them all day, rather than just putting them on when required when it's actually slippery. Each to their own.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Crampons are about as much use as a chocolate fireguard when you're sinking up to your knees in powder or afternoon slush. And they're more likely to put a hole in my trousers or leg than a chocolate fireguard too.

That said, once they're on they're on until there's a compelling reason to take them off.