UKC

I'm a UK trad climber, hoping to get to chamonix for some classics on the Aiguille du Midi and Grand Capucin. These are trad routes but there is no associated E grade that I'm used to. Is the climbing comparable to UK trad grades considering using active protections is the commonplace in more consistent cracks etc, compared to hard to find nut placements in the UK.

Some of the climbs I am hoping for are 6c. Would onsighting E4 being necessary for this, or would simply being able to onsight that difficult sport, paired with being comfortable onsighting a lower trad grade say E1, E2, E3 be sufficient?

Anyone with any experience care to share their thoughts? Thanks

EDIT - here are some of the routes on the list

- Sale Athee, Moine West Face 6c+

- La Voix du Druid, Moine West Face 6c

- Dracula, Tour Rouge 6c

- Ambience Eigerwand, Grepon East Face 6c+

- Pedro Polar, Grepon East Face 6c+

- Republique Bananiere, Grepon East Face 6c

- Versant Satanique, Minaret 6c

- Anouk, Petit Jorasses 6c

- Directe des Capucins, Grand Capucin 6c+

- Fidel Fiasco, Blatiere 6c+

In reply to jamespmitch:

Might be helpful to name the specific routes; it is likely that people here will have done them.

In reply to abcdefg:

Just added them in

In reply to jamespmitch:

Yes are often more straightforward than a lot of UK trad, more obvious route finding, bolt anchors to aim for, often pegs/bolts at cruxes and easy to place gear, bomber cams in cracks etc. However add in altitude, long routes and route depending you'll be carrying a bag with boots, crampons, axe etc which makes a big difference. Occasionally Ive found 6c pitches to feel not too similar to the harder uk e2s, regeant street/left wall. However this is very much not always the case and mainly relies on how well you get on with granite jamming and slab techniques. Confident at e3 uk multipitch would give a good shot imo. Also that it's pretty easy to french free/have a rest on a hard pitch if needs. 

In reply to jamespmitch:

When I was getting a feel for it I found the obligatory grade really helpful to have an idea of what I was getting myself into in exchange for the "E" system.

For example, on camp to camp, Rébuffat-Baquet (TD+ 6a) is TD 6b>5c and Swiss Route (TD+ 6b+) is ED- 6b>6a+ A1. Rebuffat is unlikely to traumatise a HVS/E1 leader but they might not get it clean. Meanwhile, Swiss route might be more suitable for someone operating around E2. The A1 additionally implies that it's advanced dogging if it comes to it...

The other factor I would consider is how easy it is to bail: crux pitch low down and you can abseil the route vs. crux at the end and you have to topout.

And then finally be realistic about what is a really rock-solid onsight grade with a backpack, at altitude, after a bad nights sleep, with the pressure of a q behind you etc.

In reply to lukevf:

Just did Rebuffat-Baquet and Rebuffat Pierre myself and i'd consider myself an E1 multipitch leader. I aided one move of the crux of Baquet although I maybe didn't need to, just was a bit scared. And on Pierre I was on second through the crux and had to have a second go at the roof to get it clean. it's right next to two bolts though so it's not dangerous.

In reply to PeteColdham:

I've done the Rebuffat route on the South Face of the Midi twice.  First time was back in the 70's with mountaineering boots and a pack and it felt very difficult even though I was climbing at a comparative grade in the UK. I used some aid on it. Second time, early 2005 ish was when we had gone up to do something else but seeing that there was not a single person on the route (A very rare occurrence) we decided it had to be done. I climbed it in rock shoes leaving the packs/boots at the bottom and abseiled down after. Even though I was not climbing fit at the time I found it very easy and did not need to use any aid.  On this second occasion it felt no more serious than a day on Cloggy.

In reply to John Roscoe:

To answer the OP, what UK  grade would it get at Cloggy?

In reply to jamespmitch:

As others have said, there is much more to multipitch climbing in the Alps than just the difficulty of the rock climbing. I haven't done any of the routes that you are listing, but here are my five general cents:

1. Altitude and acclimatisation - your post doesn't mention whether this is your first trip to the Alps/Chamonix, so I am sorry to assume this. However, this is the biggest difference with UK; onsighting an E3 on the ground is a very different proposition than doing it in a middle of a multipitch in 3500m, even if you are a confident leader of the grade in the UK. How do you handle altitude? Can you still operate at the required level with a headache/nausea/tiredness? How long will it take you to acclimatise?

2. Approach - take into consideration that you will have to do a lot of glacier travel and hiking to get to these climbs. Climbing on Chamonix granite is imo quite physical and having tired legs does actually make a pretty big difference!

3. Climbing with a rucksack - if you mostly single-pitch climb in the UK, this might be a new experience, as others have pointed out. For a lot of these climbs, you will have to climb with an ice axe, boots, crampons, layers, water, and food in your rucksack - this can amount to a lot, especially if you have steel crampons! Especially slab and steep climbing with a rucksack can be pretty hard and physical - imagine doing pistol squats or pulling through a big overhang with additional weight on your back. Your balance also changes a lot, making it a bit discombobulating at first.  

4. Gear - often more straightforward than fiddling in nuts. I usually climb with a 1.5 sets of cams, doubling up on middle sizes if needed, and some nuts (barely used). Plus you get bolt anchors, occasional bolts/pegs on unprotected sections, and opportunities to aid, which makes the climbing faster. But I think that's the caveat too - can you actually climb faster? I feel like a lot of British trad leaders climb on granite in the same way as they do on British trad pitches, never skipping any placement and not maintaining the speed needed to simply get up the pitch (and back down to the lift/bivvi in time).

5. Length - both the routes and the individual pitches are much longer than in the UK, again, making it much harder to compare with E grades. 

6. Style - how are you with sustained jamming of all sizes and friction slabs?

All in all, I don't feel like it's completely translatable to E grades, and if you are unsure, start on easier stuff. Just as a comparison, I climb up to E3 (though I would really say I am confident on E1s) / 7b sport and I find Chamonix 6bs pretty spot on for my ability if I want to climb the route clean and in good time.

In reply to wbo2:

In my opinion: E1

I haven't done any of the routes in the OP's list, unfortunately. However, my experience of routes in the area of similar style, but slightly easier grades (up to 6b) is that the 'usual' conversion of taking two points off generally works.

So in my experience: 6a -> UK 5b - expect E1; 6b -> UK 5c - expect E2.

Ideally, you want a bit in hand - so I definitely wouldn't be tackling 6c routes in the area if I was an E1 leader in the UK (as the OP wondered about.)

The obvious answer to the OP, if he/she hasn't climbed in the area before, is to try some easier-graded routes of the same style first, before setting out for the harder ones listed above.

In reply to jamespmitch:

I used to write in my guidebooks what I thought was the equivalent UK E grade for the French system. Generally cracks are much easier than slabs and readily protectable (friggable) for a gritstoner. I noted that on the Capucin, O Solo Mio is UK E3 6A, likewise Le Ticket on the Peine slabs TD+6b, English E3 6A. However we,ve done bolted ABO 7A+ slab routes that are desperate UK E6 6B/C, so granite slabs are very hard and a forgotten art, taking some time to learn. Conversely we,ve done cracks at ED 2 7A+ routes that we graded E4 6B and have flashed up to 7B+, which is harder than I could flash in the UK. I know my comments are maybe above the grade you want to climb, but I hope it’s indicative. When we first went there and climbed the modern routes we had no idea of comparative grades, but we quickly learnt, so go and have fun. Chamonix granite is the best rock I’ve ever climbed on.

In reply to jamespmitch:

I found granite slabs in Chamonix in particular to be 6 or so grades harder than other sport destinations (i.e. If you can lead french 7a or so limestone walls or tufas, it translates to about french 6a on granite slabs). The cracks and anything at a steeper angle on granite is a lot more amenable, but still pretty hard.

I'd say if you can lead E5s in the UK, you should be ok on 6a or 6a+ slabs in Chamonix.

In reply to henwardian:

On our first sport route visit to Cham. we too found the slabs almost impossible, sometimes falling off, or resting on 6a+ routes. By our third visit as I intimated we had learnt how to climb them and use different techniques to the climbing we were used to. Granite slabs of 7a and above appear and are completely holdless to most Brits. Very soft smeary shoes are what’s required and on the lead dabbing any slight indentation with chalk so you can see them from above and use them as smearing footholds. However they go on and on, very sustained and it can grind you down with gaps up to 8/10m between bolts. Sometimes it seems the situation and ambiance can feel a bit intimidating, but by then we had done lots of big mountain routes and we loved it. My climbing partner went on to be a guide.

In reply to henwardian:

I have never climbed an E5 slab in the UK, whereas I've climbed quite a lot of 6a/6a+ slabs in Chamonix. I would have said a bolted 6a slab in the Envers feels in the HVS-E2 range.

In reply to wbo2:

In optimum conditions I would give it E1 5B.  The E1 being earned because of the length of the route. Most of the climbing is about VS and the hard moves are next to pegs so can easily be aided.

In reply to jamespmitch:

Hiya James 

Unfortunately none of your hit list, but here's three benchmark comparisons from the Midi / Points Lachenal from a quick trip in June:

Harold et Maud (TD+ 6b) my guess E2/3 5c sustained crux pitch 

Contamine (ED1 6c+) my guess E4 6a/b safe but tough crux 

Rébuffat-Baquet (TD+ 6a) E1/2 5c.

The French 6a crux pitch on the Rébuffat-Baquet felt nails, and out of step with pitches of a similar grade on the other two (harder) routes BUT we were carrying big sacks rather than nothing but a chalk bag. I reckon that's worth at least a tech grade / E-point so bear in mind the style of ascent and what you'll be carrying when you are making comparisons! 

https://rockaroundtheworld.co.uk/2025/06/11/chamonix-cragging-with-altitude... for pics and tips. 

Enjoy! Cheers, Dom 

In reply to jamespmitch:

Comfortable is a bit of a grey area here, depends what you mean. I'd say if you're comfy at E3 (I imagine this would mean you'd climbed a couple of E5) and onsight 6c sport 9 times out of 10 you'll be fine on Chamonix 6c trad. Whereas if you're just about comfy at E1 (maybe done a few E2, one E3) and have onsighted one 6c sport route you'll probably not have the best time.

This is the only one on the list I've done. It was great, really really fantastic. I'd say the crux pitches* are about E2** taken by themselves, but it was a long time ago and obviously it's 21+ pitches long, so if you're tired they might feel harder.

*We skipped the first 6c slab pitch P5, doing the 5c alternative instead, which I recall seeming pretty natural. The 6c P20 was easier imo than some of the 6bish pitches.

**This was the grade I said when I got down, but some friends did it the following year and iirc they said E3/4 for the P17 6c.

In reply to Fellover:

As one of the friends who did Bananiere the following year and had more of an E3/4 experience, I think granite is quite a specific style and it depends on how well you get on with that. Aside from the bits of actual granite like cir mhor on Arran, if you've climbed lots of E2 gritstone cracks then you'll get on well with these 6cs, whereas if you're better at friendly north wales face climbs then they will probably feel closer to E4!

In the envers area everything is very retreatable (and sometimes aidable) so no harm in having a crack either way.

In reply to jamespmitch: I thought that going from UK trad to Chamonix routes is pretty ok.  There's a lot of routes with relatively short glacier sections, not too remove,  and telepheriques.  But I'd get in good physical shape to do long mountain days as well as a lot of climbing up front. 

Piola's 6b slabs are very hard to grade for UK climbers 

In reply to jamespmitch:

I normally lead between E1/2 and occassionally E3. I'd be happy to attempt most of those routes with a solid partner. But slabs and cracks are my strengths. 

It might be worth warming up on some easier routes - especially if it is your first time climbing at altitude/10 plus pitches in a day.

When I did Anouk but skipped the first pitches up Contamine. They're very cold first thing. I thought the upper section was E1/2.

I've only done the first half of Fidel Fiasco - it's probably E3.

Here are some other good ones to consider:

Le Ticket, le Carré, le Rond et la Lune (TD+ 6b) E3?

Rebuffat on the Peigne - E2. Would be a great day linking that to le Ticket if you're quick

Le Maillon Manquant (ED1 6b+) E2

Contamine-Vaucher (TD 6a) HVS/E1

Majorette Thatcher (TD+ 6b+) E1 5c

Swiss Route (TD+ 6b+) E1 with a point of aid

Harold et Maud (TD+ 6b) E1

Contamine Route (TD 6a+) E1

Nabot-Léon (TD- 5c) Hard VS

SW Ridge of Petit Clocher du Portalet - E2

Take crack gloves, plenty of cams, and a reasonable selection of wires. Don't carry a rucksack (a stuff sack with 500ml of water, some bars, tats and headtorch will see you right), don't waste time on change overs, block lead, get up early, get efficient at rapping, learn the topo in advance, wear suncream and sun glasses, leave your ethics in the valley and french free if needs must. 

Have a blast - Cham Granite is great.

Consider heading to the Salbit, Furka Pass, Bregalia, Val di Mello, or Eldorado if you fancy a change of scene. 

In reply to Tom Ripley:

I would say that the logical easier option on Grand Cap would be Swiss Route, but just before the crux (aid) roof switch to the end of O Sole Mio (wider crack). Makes a more consistant route of around 6a/+ and no french free needed. 

In reply to murray:

It's fair to say I was climbing quite a bit on the grit at the time, which imo does help with Chamonix granite.

Our different assessments of E grade on the same route do demonstrate to the OP that it's worth taking people's suggested E grades with a pinch of salt!

In reply to jamespmitch:

hey James,

I would say that of the routes i've done on your list it's rather tricky to compare them to UK trade grades since I can't recall too many UK trad routes with a similar style for the routes above 6c Ive done. Less so below 6c...

Here are some specific comments and a guess at a UK trade grade for the routes I've done:

Sale Athee, Moine West Face 6c+- i actually havent done this but i have dodged the rockfall on the approach and had a good look from below. This is very much a guess, but this looked Yosemite intermediating. I was thinking E5, but simply an impression...

- Pedro Polar, Grepon East Face 6c+-superb route but a very unsual techncial style with various bouldery sections more in common with modern 7a  sports routes than mid grade UK trad. well protected but for the strangeness of the on-off style I'd say E4 6a.

- Republique Bananiere, Grepon East Face 6c- just a huge undertaking. in the main, super well protected, but the grade v much determined by your level of fatigue on the upper pitches. It was  super hot the day i tried it and i just ran out of steam by the time we hit the steep cracks. bailed from the first 6c pitch (pitch 17?), but if this was a grit grade I'd say stiff, burly E3 6a up to this point.

- Anouk, Petit Jorasses 6c- long route with v. amenable often slabby style climbing. I only recall the one tricky slightly buldging pitch and felt this was a bit over graded. Maybe E2 5c but its largely bolts the whole way.. That said, if it has got polished since my ascent (1992), this would certainly affect the grade..

- Fidel Fiasco, Blatiere 6c+- superb route in a great setting, but the first thin crack is absolutely brutal with super fiddly gear. had to frig it. E4 6a, but at the time i kept complaining to myself 'its more like bloody 6b'..

I'd only add that it all of these cases I'd had a decent long summer in Cham so was butchers-dog fit. Straight off the plane and unacclimitised, you'd want a grade in hand...

Hope this helps.

John C

In reply to jamespmitch:

Sometimes the 6c pitches aren't the ones you have to worry about. 50m of insecure smeary granite 5+ with 3 bolts is terrifying.  

In reply to jamespmitch:

Apart from the original lower part of Ambience Eigerwand, I've done just one route on your list, the Directe des Capucines. I found it pretty tough, probably 6c+ is about right - depends how you like laybacking/undercutting wide cracks. E grade wise I'm sur E4 would be undergrading it a bit. Worth bearing in mind that after pitch 10 you have three options.

1 Rap back down - completely unsatisfactory, lacks that summit experience.

2 Take the upper part of the Bonatti which is harder than anything you've done below, but probably the best option.

3 Take the original finish but bear in mind that it's N facing so bring an extra jumper. It can be dry or iced/snowed up. It was snowed up when I did it and I was completely unprepared - no warm clothing and just rock boots and chalk bag. It's three or maybe four pitches. I had to clear snow and aid most of it. I think even when dry the last pitch involves a bit of aid?

I wouldn't give it three stars and I really think there are better/more enjoyable routes further left that stay in the sun a bit longer. 

In reply to LucaC:

Why do people protect routes like this? Yeah, I get that someone capable of doing the hard parts shouldn't fall off the easy ones, but anyone can snap a hold or get caught in a shower.

In reply to Toerag:

Because they're not sport routes. They're trad routes with a few bolts.

See also routes bolted on lead

In reply to Toerag:

For aesthetics, and good judgement. Bolting is always necessarily artificial, but the idea is to create a good, balanced route, which presents a reasonable challenge for anyone capable of attempting it; and which doesn't, meanwhile, dumb down the entire experience.

Piola's routes in Chamonix (to single out one particular revolutionary first ascentionist) were very controversial at the time - but, by now, seem accepted. For me, I 'd be happy if every single bolt was removed.

In reply to wbo2:

Also time and logistics...placing bolts on granite is a lot more work than on soft limestone... and these routes are long. So simply preserving batteries makes sense, because then you can equip more of the route in one go (incl. the belays).

Not to mention the fact, that the bolts ain't cheap, from your own pocket. If you buy in bulk, about 5 Eur per  bolt... a lot more, if you don't buy in bulk. Most of the routes the OP has listed are in the 10+ pitches range... so just for the belays, that will be 20+ bolts (albeit I do recall that at least Piola has now switched to single bolt belays/rappel). Then you add the bolts for the pitches (again, not fully bolted).