UKC

When to call "safe" on single pitch trad?

I'm interested in opinions but my specific question is: what do instructors teach regarding calling "safe" at the top of a pitch these days?

This came up with some less experienced friends the other day. I've always been of the opinion that the leader calls "safe" and is taken off belay only once he has anchors set up - even on single pitch grit top outs. Having read a few old threads it seems that there are varying opinions on this.

I consider each situation individually and I don't believe in inflexible rules - but generally I was always taught (informally many years ago) that it was poor practice to shout safe before you were at least anchored to some degree (I might go on to add anchors or equalize etc.) And that this was a good habit to then take on to multi-pitch.

Obviously there are plenty of situations - headpointing say - where you don't intend to bring up a second where shouting safe and untying is fine - and plenty of youtube videos where this occurs.

I then went looking and eventually dug out some old BMC videos where my view was kind of implied but I couldn't find anything definitive. So what's the official line on it?

Thanks...

If I feel like I'm safe I shout safe, sometimes this might mean I'm not anchored to anything but on a flat cliff top well away from the edge. It's probably not best practice but works in the real world. I once had some randoms passively aggressively makings it clear they disapproved, which was sort of ironic as I'd just topped out on an exceedingly run out climb and was the safest I'd been since stepping off the ground!

In short whatever works for you and your climbing partner.

Basically don't say safe until you are happy to not be belayed. That simple. If you don't want to be taken off belay, don't say safe.

My local rock is the eastern gritstone edges, where it is very normal to pull over on to the flat, dry rocky top, take a few steps away from the edge and shout safe. Then your mate can take you off belay and then put her shoes on, take her mitts off, tie in, eat a pork pie - whatever they haven't been doing whilst belaying. You have taken responsibility to fall off the edge of the cliff whilst you build a belay. Often the obvious belays are threads or slings over boulders so you need to move around, much easier without your out of sight belayer having to yard out or take in slack all the time. But if the top out is damp, greasy, covered in leaves, a steep grassy field where you need to play hunt the stake, you'd be a fool to shout safe and it obviously better to stay on belay until you've built your belay and tied in. Your mate can just wait and belay for a couple of minutes more before scoffing her packed lunch!

FWIW, this was not that type of situation. It was in the context of teaching a young friend to trad climb, who is interested in getting into multi-pitch.

I climb on grit a good chunk and understand the viewpoint, my choice is generally to get at least something on first.

He just thought you shouted safe when topping out as a matter of course. I was clarifying the risk/choices involved in doing that and I just wondered what is taught currently in terms of courses. Not judging anyone elses informed choices.

Simple answer: when you want to be taken off belay.  It just means "take me off belay".

Surely this is one of those questions where everyone will have a slightly different opinion and it very much depends upon the perceived risk.

I was once completely unroped,, in perfect weather, pottering around on the top of Burbage edge, setting up a belay.  I was well over a metre away from the edge.  The rock underneath me was dry, offered good friction and was level.  I took a step back and slightly lost my balance.  I took another step back to try and regain my balance and hit something uneven.  I took another step back to try once again to regain my balance but this time stepped backwards straight into fresh air...

It nearly killed me.  I now ensure I am a very very long way away from the edge or am at least belayed in some way before I consider myself safe!

As far as I'm concerned "safe" is short for "you can take me off belay now", because that's what's going to happen after I shout it.

He shouldn't shout safe as a matter of course when topping out. He should be taught to make a judgement on whether he's happy to be off belay, and then shout safe when appropriate.

That's how I see it as well, although I did get a telling off from one person who seemed to think "safe" meant "am happy for you to use the rope for bell ringing practice".

No.  My belayer is not going to start hauling on the rope because I said I was safe.

That sounds terrifying! Glad you're OK 

This. If your newbie says safe as a matter of course from topping out, he needs to be aware of when he might not want to be taken off starting away. Then he needs to be aware of why he should think much carefully about off I in other scenarios.

However, the OP sounds like he knows this

Do you mean your belayer hauled on the rope after you shouted safe!? I'd be shouting some other four letter words if anyone did that to me!

No, I mean I got a telling off from someone who insisted "it could happen" and "you aren't safe until you are on an 87 point belay" etc.

I was 5m back from the edge on a downward slope and it was a single pitch climb.  Doesn't get much safer.

To add to what others have said, shout 'safe' when you consider yourself safe.

Ah, OK. One of them... I might have drawn on my four-letter vocabulary for them too. 🙂

Yep, if I shout "safe" I'll expect to be taken off belay (and not for the rope to be yanked on). It's very rare for that not to be when I'm attached to something.

If I want something else I'll say something else. Can't think of many examples though.... Maybe sometimes "I'm going to have to walk miles so take me off" 

You shout safe when you're... safe. That means tied to an anchor almost 100% of the time. This is what I practice and teach. 

My pet hate is leaders shouting safe, being taken off belay, and then cutting about the clifftop building an anchor in a position with the most hazardous fall potential possible eg. the full height of the cliff. 

Pretty much the only time I will shout safe without being tied to something solid is when guiding in the winter, on the final pitch, and I've topped out and need to walk a long way back from the edge to dig a bucket seat or similar anchor. I know I'm not coming back to the edge so don't need to remain on belay and my guests know that they are to climb when the rope goes tight and stays tight even if they can't hear me.

When I am teaching novices or when the anchor is being built near the edge like some of Stanage anchors safe means when your anchored. Being attached to something for your own safety is a major part of climbing when working or working for others. Looking down the route to see where to place yourself for the anchor is not safe. So in reply to you question. When I am teaching 'safe' is when they are in an anchor system, gold standard.   

Perhaps if some of the downvotes who disagree with my stance actually see what happens when someone pitches off the top of a cliff they might reevaluate their 'safe' position.

I will shout 'safe' to indicate that I'm to be taken off belay, meaning I'm then fully responsible for my own safety. Not reliant on a belayer - just in case or otherwise. Not reliant on rules, even well meaning, super safe ones. Reliant on my own experience and judgement. That's a fundamental part of what climbing means to me, and an inflexible rules-based approach that has limited scope for self-reliance and personal responsibility would feel entirely wrong. It's a bit like choosing whether to solo, or choosing whether to wear a helmet. Fine if others want to experience climbing with those choices already made for them and encoded in an unwritten rule book, but I'd hate to think there'd come a day when climbers would be looked down upon for taking control of their own welfare.

Does this mean you will never approach the edge of a cliff without being secured? So if you've arrived at a sea cliff and you want to look over the edge to see if you're in the right place, you'll rig an anchor first? Because I don't see how that's any different to completing a climb and moving around at the top on easy flat ground while building an anchor.

Fully agree - in the case where experience is the basis for judgement. But when teaching I think it's entirely appropriate to establish 'best practice' while explaining possible exceptions to any rule. 

Perhaps we're imagining different scenarios. I'm picturing the all too common grit leader wobbling around on a rounded top out after he's called safe and before theres anything remotely resembling an anchor built. This is very different from cautiously approaching an edge from above.

To answer your question, If I want to actually look over the edge of a sea cliff, I'm probably going to be on a rope, yes. It's usually quick and easy enough, and means I can have a proper look to see what the sea state is, if the rock is dry, if we're in the right place etc.

I anchor the rope. I have my harness on as I am climbing. estimate where the edge is and put a knot in the rope. Using my belay device in guide mode I walk to the edge of the cliff. If I slip the plate in guide mode stopes the fall. The short answer; yes.

Never. Not if I was working. Not if we were just friends, not ever. One of my all time inspirations fell off a crag just doing what you describe having just climbed a hard route and I witnessed a fatality on the cromlech doing just what you describe.  

From an instruction point of view, I would absolutely teach best practice of not shouting safe until anchored. 

Once you're up on top, the belayer can give you some  slack, put a knot in the rope or a couple of wraps round their hand and get on with eating/putting shoes on/etc., knowing that if the worst case scenario happens you'll stop short of the ground, and they won't have to deal with phoning your next of kin to let them know.

As with all things you're teaching, once experienced, they can make their own judgement, but in most cases it causes next to no inconvenience, and could save your life if you trip over a rock or a rope while setting up the anchor.

If the anchors are back from the edge, like most single pitch crags with trees, boulders, etc. What is wrong with saying 'safe', getting taken off, building your anchor(s), pulling a loop of slack up and clove hitching it into yourself, then going back to the edge and adjusting the slack? You're never really in any danger in that situation, as even if you bin it, you are still secured to the anchor. You might have a daft dangle over the edge on your loop but you wont fall the length of the crag.

This is what I tend to do so please enlighten me if its dodgy! 

After arrival at the top of a reasonable number of gritstone crags, the next thing that happens is that I untie and tie the end of rope around a massive [boulder/thread/etc]. Being untied from the rope obviously makes being belayed a bit irrelevant, so I tend to shout "safe" before I do things that render the system irrelevant - for convenience if nothing else.

It can be argued from a position of experience that 'safe' means 'I'm now telling you as my belayer that I'm taking control of my personal safety now'. 

When teaching skills to friends I'd say best practice is the way and that means anchor in first. If we're helping someone learn we can be politely insistent.

I've seen you politely call up to one of our mates that the anchor might be a good idea first but thats about as much as we can do.

Personally I'd be reluctant to pair up with what I personally think is sloppy practice as seeing a partner come over the edge and get badly injured is not what I want to see. 

For me safe for trad means attached to the anchor and ready to pull in the rope to bring my second up. 

The only exception might be if it's a very long walk back to a belay in which case I might well ask my partner to take me off belay so I can move more freely. That said, I'd likely only do that if climbing at a familiar crag. If climbing at a new venue I'll usually just shout down that I need lots of slack and stay on belay, just in case I need to return back to the top of the crag to get a belay, e.g if the rope doesn't reach. 

For sport climbs I'll shout safe once connected to the lower off if it's one that needs threaded so my partner knows to allow me some slack to thread the anchors etc. 

On multipitch climbs regardless of whether it's trad/sport/winter I'll only ever shout safe once attached to the anchor.

I think it’s quicker and easier to go back and sling your tree (or whatever), walk back to the edge on belay and then sit down and clove hitch in. You know you’ve got the rope the right length that way. 

That's what I do, but I don't want to be dragging the rope through a belay device while I walk there and back. So I shout safe when I'm far enough back from the edge that I'm not going to fall off, then walk back still tied in and pulling the rope, sling the tree and walk back to the edge. 

It is marginally quicker for the climber but in the meantime your belayer has been sat like a lemon and will then take 5 minutes putting their shoes on, tying in, etc. 

If you call safe earlier then your second will be raring to go by the time the rope comes tight on them.

There seems to be some confusion in this thread about whether people are talking about A) what advice or good practice to convey to novices or climbers without wide experience, and B) what might be reasonable practice for an experienced climber knowing his/her competence and assessing any risk.

In the case of A, I can fully understand and support the teaching of only being taken off belay when safely achored. But in the case of B, as climbers become better at judging their own safety on clifftops, terraces and big ledges, recognising that some people might want to adapt such behaviour to prioritise speed or convenience makes a lot of sense too.

Horses for courses.

A couple of years back we lost a very dear friend in this way: he shouted safe after topping out on a sea cliff and ended up falling.  A completely preventable accident. 

Like LucaC I now urge the people I climb with to only shout 'safe' when they are actually attached to the world.   It protects you against unforeseen and unlikely events (medical incident/stumble/rockfall/moment of inattention etc) that have fatal consequences when you are at the top of a crag.   See johnlc's post above: not everyone is lucky enough to get a second chance to improve on good climbing practice.

So if you look over the edge and realise you're in the wrong place, you pack everything up, walk along a bit, then find another anchor and repeat? And repeat...

I agree it's safe and good practice to teach beginners to do this, but it could get bloody tedious. I think I'm capable of approaching the edge of a cliff and taking a look over without being secured. If I wasn't up for that level of risk, I wouldn't climb trad.

We're talking about teaching here and therefore best practice. We should be teaching a system that will hold them in good stead anywhere, including steep multi pitch and hanging belays above a rising tide where delays and pulled ropes could have consequences, so they should have tied in before you left the ground.

They should be able to put their shoes on in the time it takes to pull the slack and put them on belay, and as I said up thread if they want to eat, etc. they can tie off their belay device while you're anchor building.

If you're climbing with experienced partners you can make your own choices, but that inexperienced climber you're teaching today could be going out to a sea cliff with another inexperienced climber tomorrow.

Yep, that's the way I do it.  If I can see that a leader who has said 'safe' is actually off searching for a belay I'll just pay out lots of slack and keep hold of the rope anyway.

This is slightly off-topic as the OP was asking about single pitch trad - but, with your permission, I'll raise a cautionary eyebrow because 'in the wrong hands' this practice can have consequences.

I think it's one of those cases which, as John points out above, depends on who is involved. If we're talking about a solid, experienced team who are well-used to climbing together, are both fully aware of what's going on, what's going to happen next and precisely what their responsibilities are - then I'm sure it's fine, as part of their well-understood standard procedure. The problems arise when the general level of awareness is reduced, compounded by the use of a term which can have differing interpretations - sometimes depending upon whether it is taken, or intended, as a 'status update' or an actual command; as indicated above, the slightly vague 'safe' - and similar - is widely interpreted as 'take me off belay'. In view of this, when talking about passing on best practice to others - who, if having to ask, probably don't have your level of experience - this is probably advice best avoided.

Many years ago I twice encountered this situation - ie the general lack of awareness - within the space of a few days during a trip to Spain. In the first instance the leader's actual words on reaching the lower-off were "Off belay". Whether you think of that term as a 'status update' or actual command to 'take me off belay' - in this case it was taken as the latter, and complied with; and this, bizarrely, only after a brief confirmatory exchange which itself was clearly misunderstood. It very quickly became clear that the leader - who, when about to lower, fortunately looked down first and angrily berated the belayer for no longer belaying - hadn't intended to be taken off belay and was unaware that this had occurred. [I would rate 'not knowing whether or not you are actually being belayed' as scoring fairly high in the 'lack of awareness' stakes!] And the belayer, of course, should have been more clued-up about standard sport climbing procedure and either ignored the 'request' - or at least kept a much closer eye on what was happening up above. With a very slight modification - ie "the leader just 'leaned back'", as such accidents are often related - that could have been a fatality. In the second instance I can't remember exactly what the leader said - it was a German equivalent of 'safe' - but, this time without any other exchange, the result was the same: the rope was removed from the belay device and the belayer attended to other matters [having an impromptu wrestling match with the third member of the party!] no longer showing any concern with or responsibility for, apparently, what was happening up above. And again: surprise and annoyance from the leader who was clearly unaware that belaying duties had ceased - despite being the one who had instigated that situation. None of these people appeared to be beginners.

This is, of course, a very familiar topic. But it still bears repeating.

[Edited for the usual typos, bad punctuation and ink smudges. I should have stuck with the crayons.]

On what possible route does this happen? If its rounded enough to wobble on I wouldn't be going near the edge to belay from. Once I've topped out and I feel safe, I shout safe. Its not complex. If I manage to fall off a flat rock from there I have to take responsibility for that. You can't trad climb and cover every potential hazard.

As is standard in these discussions theres loads of chat about #bestpractice but very little about real world practicalities. I know trad attracts the kind of people who like systems and rules (me included!) but there should be an element of common sense built in because evaluation of risk and practicality is the nature of trad climbing.The same instinct that causes wall staff to criticise perfectly good belaying with a grigri because they've only ever climbed trad where the rope is permanently tight. 

On a more practical level, as a belayer I deeply resent freezing myself paying in and taking out slack while my climbing partner fiddles around adjusting clove hitches on flat ground at the top of the crag, when I could be putting a jacket on, having lunch, getting my shoes on...

As for sport climbing, if you shout 'in hard' when you've clipped directly into the belay, the belayer knows to give you a few handfuls of slack to rethread but not to take you off. Again, not complex. 

I agree with Ian on this. I think (and I think this is quite a widely held belief?) that shouting 'safe' when reaching the anchor on a sport route that you are intending to be lowered from is a very bad idea.

As this thread demonstrates, many climbers in the UK take a shout of 'safe' from the leader to mean "take me off belay". Being taken off belay is almost certainly not what the leader wants when they are at the top of a sport route that they want to be lowered from.

Obviously this is just convention, so if two people have an agreement that shouting 'safe' at the top of a sport route means "just give me some slack, but keep me on belay", then it will probably be fine for ages. However, there is definitely some risk in assigning a different meaning to a word that already has a well understood meaning in the climbing context. If you end up climbing with a different partner who uses the broadly agreed upon definition of 'safe' to mean "take me off belay", then you risk them taking you off belay.

Agreed.  I'd definitely not shout "safe" on a sport route as I don't want taking off belay.  Only time I would would be if I was intending to abseil rather than be lowered, but that would have been discussed first.

If I want slack I call "Slack!".

If "Take" is in your repertoire of climbing calls, I advise you never to use "Safe".

They are both monosyllabic, have exactly the same vowel sound and can be easily confused when hollered at distance in the presence of background noise. This can obviously have catastrophic consequences.

I was involved in a 'near-miss' incident where this was the primary factor. Admittedly it was on multi-pitch sport, not single-pitch trad, but I think it remains relevant to your question.

I probably still tend to use "safe" at the anchors on a sport route, and assume everyone I climb with knows what that means in context, but I guess "in direct" is a clearer indication that you're temporarily attached to the rock (whether at the anchor or an intermediate bolt) so that is clear that the belayer has been relieved of primary duties but should still have you on belay unless further conversation takes place, so would probably be a better one to teach.

Although on most single pitch sport routes there's no real need of commands other than "take" when you're ready to go back on belay.

I'm now pretty old-school and I didn't use 'safe' at all until quite recently (now I do sometimes use it to indicate I'm attached to a belay).  I was originally taught the simple trad calls that were intended to be unambiguous - 'climbing', 'take in' (or maybe 'tight'!), 'slack', taking in' and 'climb when ready'.  A belayer was expected to continue to pay attention to a leader until they heard 'taking in', at which point they could stop belaying and get ready to climb.

Sport is a bit different but to the above I add 'take' when I've clipped the belay bolts/chain, then 'slack' when I'm temporarily secure and need to thread a bight (or, if unavoidable, untie, thread and retie), followed by 'take' when I'm ready to unclip from the belay to lower.  At no point would I say 'safe'.

I'd say the key thing is when to not call safe ie. Any time you're at the edge totally unprotected, or even steep wet grass. The rest is judgement and experience, if it means your second has to yard out slack whilst you go back a few metres, sling a tree, go back to sit on the edge and clove hitch 'then' call safe, then so be it. It's a question of you feeling and being safe. Your second doesn't want to deal with you falling full height either.

Note, some crags are so worn at the top there are masses of slip and trip hazards with wet exposed roots etc, you need to treat each location on its merits.

I'll also never use "safe" when sport climbing.

"I'm in hard" (bin me out some slack)

"Back on you" (take in any slack)

"Lower away" (down, please)

I've never heard anyone else use those.  Is that a local thing?

Sounds like your shooting Debbie does Dallas 2, not climbing. 

Some interesting things coming out to think about and thanks for the replies.

A few thoughts:

The original question was about what to teach beginners. I did caveat the question that experience and judgement would play a role in choices made by experienced climbers. For me, in general I secure myself before shouting safe, but it's not a 'rule' as such, I'm just as happy moving to 'unbelayed' mind set if it's appropriate or necessary for expediency, or where terrain tends towards moving together etc.

There is a difference between securing yourself and having a fully set up anchor. I tend to think of my first anchor point as the last runner on a pitch, which more often than not means I can move about faster and freer near the edge. It really doesn't add more than a minute or two to do this and my personal choice is that this is worth elimating the unknown risks of tripping etc. I'm confident and quite a bold climber but this just makes sense to me as a risk I can control. Having secured myself, I then can faff about equalizing and positioning myself comfortably while my second eats his lunch, puts on his shoes, picks his nose etc.

I very much agree that there shouldn't be mindless 'rules' but at the same time I am concious of the difference between feeling safe and actually being safe, and the tendency towards familiarity, complacency and habits which can affect anyone.

All of the above applies to me. When teaching someone else I recommend they get fully set up before being taken off belay. I think this is a good habit to adopt until they have aquired the judgement/experience to do otherwise should they wish. I think this is also a good template to take to multi-pitch. I'm ok if they take a while, as the belayer this is the job I've taken on.

Climbing on grit a lot, I can totally understand why people might want to do different, but I also think that solid calls/procedures serve you well when you find yourself on bigger pitches with poor communication and you can't just have a chat to sort out any muddles. None of this stuff is an issue with my climbing partner with whom I have really clear understanding and we barely think about it. But it can come up with casual climbing partners, especially those with limited experience or who might have different approaches.

I appreciate the comments of those who instruct. I'm still interested to hear if the BMC/guiding organisations have a recommendation or guidance?

I tend to favour "in direct", as "in hard" does sound rather silly! Perhaps I've just got too dirty a mind but it does still make me giggle when you hear someone shout it at Horseshoe. 

The main thing is you discuss with your climbing partner what you do on reaching the chain, so that they have a fair idea. If it is someone relatively inexperienced, I make sure we discuss this thoroughly and central to that is they do not take me off belay until I tell them very clearly too!

In hard is super common these days, overseas too.

I only ever shout safe when I've fully set up my belay, and have my belay plate clipped to the anchor or my rope loop ready to put the ropes into once I've taken in all the slack. There is no time advantage to not doing this (my second can't start climbing until I've built my belay), and if they're really in a rush and I'm taking ages they can always tie off the belay plate to put they're shoes on or something while I'm sorting stuff out.

I reckon being really consistent with these things makes life much easier when its difficult to communicate. Even if my partner can't hear me, or can barely hear me, they'll have a far better idea of what's going on if I always do the same thing every time I reach an anchor, and that includes the timings of my shouts - that way if they can't really hear me, they can piece together a picture of whats going on much easier.

I always clip the belay device into the relevant point so I can put my partner on belay immediately as soon as I feel the ropes go tight. This is important to me as it means that if my partner can't hear me shout on belay, they know they can just wait a minute or so then start climbing, and are in no doubts that they're on belay. Also means if I'm climbing with a mate who's new to it all, and they get a bit confused and take off the clove hitch a bit early (eg as soon as the rope goes tight), it means that they're on belay very quickly and thus kept as safe as poss. It really bothers me when it takes people ages to put someone on belay once the ropes are tight - feels like it's bound to create issues at some point. 

To be honest, these things are probably more important in the mountains that at a single pitch crag - but worthwhile to make good habbits in my eyes. 

What about "in super hard"?

What about it?

Agree about putting in a runner just before topping out or as topping out. Never know what one might encounter ..,. angry goat, swarm of bees, Nigel Farage never mind 'normal' dangers of loose hold, foot slip etc ...,

I know. Climbing YouTubers and Instagram star influencers have a lot to answer for. ;⁠-⁠)

Despite your original question, I think the main learning point on this thread from a safety point of view is NEVER shout 'safe' when sport climbing unless you want taken off belay. That is what 'safe' implies. So perhaps only if you're going to ab off rather than lower, though even then, them keeping you on belay (maybe communication is difficult) would do no harm as you'd still be able to ab.

Or an adder, met one at wintours leap, tremadog, gower, Ben A'an.... there are loads out there. 

Well unless you're proposing a rather mobile snake, that's four not one, looks like you're not much of an adder yourself 😁

Some very interesting points re sport climbs which I'd not thought of. Perhaps need to change what we shout as I'd not appreciate it could potentially be confusing. 

FWIW, my partner doesn't take me off belay at any stage when I'm threading an anchor, he just pays out slack and takes it back in once I have finished threading etc. 

Well my question was specific to trad but yes it's always useful to reiterate that point too. I view sport as quite a different set of calls, procedures and mindset. I also find I belay a little differently with a grigri so I try to be conscious of swapping from one situation to the other. I use "take", "in hard", "back on you" etc (never "safe") in a sport context and I can't really think of a reason why you would take someone off belay unless it was understood beforehand ie abseiling. But yes, it's worth making the distinction.

If teaching friends I think it's important to make the distinction between the two situations clear. I had to relearn some trad habits when I started sport climbing in earnest, especially working routes and clip-sticking.

Picking up an earlier point someone made: I use 'safe' to mean 'take me off belay' (which is clearly the implication for most people) I started using 'safe' because it was a single use word, clearer than 'I'm on the belay' or 'take me off belay'.

For us it goes:

Leader: "Safe!"

Second: "Take in!"

Second: "That's me"

Leader: "Climb when ready!"

Second: "Climbing!"

Using names if it's at all busy. It works with rope tugs too, as a simple sequence of actions/expected reactions.

Or a massive swarm of flying ants (Shining Clough). Had to brave it and more or less sit on the nest that time :/

Good job you did not encounter the resident midges.  WOOO things of nightmares, nightmares I tell you

Oh aye, they were about too. But formic acid from ants swarming inside my helmet was a new one for me...

There’s tons of effin accountants that take up climbing!

No idea why you have so many dislikes for your post. It's a reasonable question. 

I have a friend (no names or pack-drill) who never calls 'safe' until he's built a whole multi-point belay, sat down, equalised it all out, scratched his nuts, attached his belay plate etc and ready to start yanking up the spare rope. Does drive me slightly nuts at the times when you know it's a flat safe area at the top of the climb with easy belays but you're stood there (im)patiently 'belaying' for 10 minutes while they faff instead of tightening your shoes and starting to take your belay apart and getting ready.

But as others have said, it's a personal decision based on experience and I'll usually say 'safe' when I've pulled over onto horizontal ground at the top, or once I've clipped into at least one piece of gear if on more precarious territory.     

The replies have mostly focused on single-pitch routes and how advisable it is for the leader to walk around at the top unbelayed.  So this is a bit off the main drift, but perhaps it is of some value as a discussion point. I'm about to describe a process for experienced parties on multipitch trad routes, either on very big crags or mountains.  Judgement is called for when doing this and it can't be applied to every pitch.

Ok, with the stipulations in place, the leader arrives at a stance, gets in a good piece, clips to it with an installed tether like the Petzl Connect Adjust---but there are now several options---and gives whatever call is used to indicate the belayer can take off the belay.  (In the US it is "off belay," which is perfectly descriptive but is easily confused with "on belay," and in the UK it is "safe," which is an expression of hopefully justified optimism rather than a specific directive, and is easily confused with "take."  Both countries could use a language overhaul.)

When the belayer hears the call, they clip to the best piece of their anchor with a tether. Or maybe they have already done this before the leader started up.  While the leader is faffing about building the rest of the belay, hauling up the spare rope and installing their belay device, the belayer is putting on their shoes and pack and removing all but one piece of the anchor and all the rigging material used to build it if that wasn't just the rope.

Just to be clear, this process has the leader and belay simultaneously doing stuff while attached to just a single anchor piece.  This is why the party has to be experienced and make good judgments, but in practice I've found this to work with many, perhaps most, mutlipitch stances.

The goal is that by the time the leader has built the anchor, hauled up the rope, and installed the belay device, the second has gotten completely ready to climb and has only to unclip their tether and remove the last remaining anchor piece. If there are lots of pitches, considerable time can be saved this way.

I think the drawbacks are obvious enough, although there's no harm in pointing them out at length for those who feel so inclined. There are certainly times not to do this, and I would never try it with inexperienced people in the party nor recommend it to beginners (who probably wouldn't be on long multipitch climbs anyway).


 

Certainly used to do something like this on multi-pitch in the days before adjustable tethers.

It obviously depends on the topography of the belay and the quality of the gear, are you (seconding) happy to go down to one piece unbelayed?

To give a couple of examples that lots of UK climbers will be familiar with, both on Dinas Mot.

1. Top pitch of Direct Route (VS 5b), leader at top happy on single point, second on spacious ledge happy on single point.
2. Third pitch of Diagonal (HVS 5a), leader happy in sheltered bay below top pitch on single point, second on slopey exposed ledge definitely NOT happy on single point (although might be happy to take some gear out) 

More for my benefit than my partners, I tend to shout "safe" or give a thumbs up only when I'm on belay.  If I'm not tied on but need to come off belay to set up an anchor, I'll just say "take me off". I find the distinction useful in my mind as the latter call reminds me to be careful as I'm not actually 'safe'.

If you're at the top of a sports climb and need slack to thread the anchors, why shout "safe"? We already have a suitable word i.e. "slack". What on earth does "in hard" mean? 😆

R.e. trad, there have been several accounts described above of entirely avoidable  accidents and deaths caused by people falling off the edge who had shouted safe. Clearly they weren't safe, and it just seems wiser to only shout "safe" when actually, ya know, safe.

I'll shout it when I could fall off the edge and be ok. I might still be faffing with adjusting clove hitches etc, but I'm tied in to something at least.

The 5min gained so the belayer can eat a banana just doesn't seem worth the extra risk.  If you're that bothered about your belayer having some free time, I'd say agree that you'll shout something else, they'll pay out a load of slack and tie it off.  At least you have some backup if you stumble off the edge then.

I'm sure it's supercommon overseas in non english speaking countries.

With regard to safe/take I have heard it suggested that changing take to tight would make more sense - it's a very different sounding word and more clearly indicates what you want, i.e. a tight rope so you can sit on it.

But then I suppose there's "take" and the less fraught "take in", the former being "I want a tight rope now" and the latter being "there's an armful of slack here, I might feel better if you got rid of some of it"?

Typically in the UK "off belay" is the reply to "safe" from the belayer.  You don't tend to hear "on belay" in my experience, it's more likely to be "climb when ready" which implies they are belaying.

I've never heard or used "in hard", I just call for slack, thread, then call take and lower as usual.

Obviously if people are saying "safe" before they're attached, then they're accepting the risk. But, they do need to realise that it is a risk and that serious accidents have occurred from seemingly safe situations so that they can make an informed judgement that it is safe enough.

We accept risk when we perceive that it's low enough or that the "reward" is worth the risk, otherwise we'd never get in a car, etc.

Hopefully, our perception of risk has some connection to the actual risk.

With you on this one Oscar,

If the call is (which ever agreed rendition of) 'SAFE!'  is replied to with 'off belay!'

To be followed shortly by the remaining rope/s being pulled up, pop 2nd on belay, call it & start fishing.

Then the rope movement reinforces the call and thus helps with if it is:

noisy / windy / cloth-eared second / all 3. Habitual technique under non-adverse situations for when things are less straight forwards.

(slightly oversimplified for the sake of a brief reply)

----

my slant on the call:

"(Belayer's name) Safe! (Belayer's name)"

to make it more unique. Just ruined that by telling the whirld.  ;-j

:-j

I wouldn't be very happy if my partner was fishing while belaying me.

I would also completely avoid the word "belay" in calls because of its double meaning which could invite confusion and possible death. I just say "you're off" when I take someone off the belay plate.

I'm not going to answer the original question, I think all reasonable points of view have already been given and you can make up your own mind (also I think your educated guess on what any 'official' guidance for beginners is likely to be will match precisely anything stated by the BMC or professional associations).

I will however flag an anecdotal issue with the word 'safe'. Years ago, on a hanging belay on a big sea cliff, my partner called 'safe'. Or so I thought. I could partially see them, could see that they had been building a belay, and I guess it was clear to me that the syllable that reached my ears above the noise of the wind and waves was 'safe'. In actual fact it was 'take' (they were moving back up to a high piece of gear). Fortunately they didn't lean back before the mistake was corrected, because I had taken them off belay.

The point is that in this situation the risk is often low probability but high consequence. And with an element of the unknown ie a stumble. I've no issues moving around on top of a crag solo but having got a rope on I'll use it. It doesn't take me very long to set up an anchor.

Another nuance that I don't think has been mentioned: there are plenty of top out situations where you initial get to a 'safe' spot only to find that to get anchors you need to cross a big drop or dangle down a grit crevasse or something where a beginner might regret having been taken off belay.

I only heard "in hard" from a partner for the first time about a year and half ago and found it odd at first (I'm not sure when it originated). I have now adopted it and find it useful when sport climbing. It means that I am clipped directly to a bolt so that my belayer can safely yard out slack or doesn't need full attention on belaying and can do other stuff. Most often used when needing to haul up the clip stick!

Its the most commonly used call among people who sport climb regularly and seriously pretty much everywhere in the UK I have ever climbed, for the last 10 years. I think it speaks to the UKC demographic (predominantly trad, sport climb occasionally but when doing so normally onsighting rather than redpointing or on Euro holidays, maybe a bit older?) that so many people haven't heard it!

Good to hear RDurran has adopted it!

It's used mostly when clip-sticking up a route, attaching yourself to a mid-route bolt while your belayer pays out enough slack for you to clip stick the bolt above (ie a lot of slack.) You dont tend to see this side of the process on pro climber content - it's not exactly entertaining. And if you only onsight/flash/dog sport routes or if you don't project at level where you initially can't climb bolt to bolt then you might never need to use it.

I had a similar experience, but I'd say the problem was with the word "take".

I found myself a long way off route and started to downclimb. I was getting a bit concerned about the amount of slack that was building up so I shouted "take". I wasn't very impressed to hear the response "off belay"! 

Lesson learned, don't shout take!

I think in part it's just the next generation inventing new words to describe things which had perfectly adequate phrases previously. Sent and send? Safe, slack, pay out, take me off, tight rope, f**king tight rope... all pretty describe exactly what's required and can't be confused when pronounced.

The problems come with elongated conversations, or a busy crags people not adding in a forename, "Fred safe", "julie climbing when ready" adding in a 3 gentle tugs regardless and there's zero confusion. 

I think at times we make it harder than it is.

Climbing, safe, take in, climb when ready. That's all you need for a pair up a pitch, with the possibility of slack or tight rope in the middle. (You can drop the take in too, the leader just gives the second time to take him off belay), so 3 calls, 6 words per pitch. 

What? You mean your belayer had confused/misheard 'take in' for "taking in'?

Presumably the belayer misheard 'take' or 'take in' for 'safe'. Which is easily done, the words sound quite similar, as highlighted by a few people on this thread.

You're attempting to apply rigid rules to what is ultimately a human interaction. Its the standard 'engineers mindset' applied to climbing that is ubiquitous on the forum. Numerous people have explained why 'safe' is a pretty dumb thing to say when you're in hard on a bolt/belay when sport climbing, so it makes sense something different has evolved instead of it. Shock horror that its the 'new generation' that started it, although as I've said its been around for at least 10 years for those who actually sport climb on a regular basis. 

Yeah, that's fair. 'Take in' makes a much clearer distinction.

The top of a sports route where you thread and lower off isn't what the op is talking about. 

The comment you replied to specifically refers to two people climbing a pitch, again clearly not a single pitch sports route where you lower off, but would work fine on a multi pitch bolted climb. 

The top of a sports route can almost use the same calls, you just never obviously need to call safe(as stated it would be foolish to), the addition is what you decide to say when you're ready sit back and lower off, with regular climbing partners just like indoors, most comms are done with a nod or ok, as both know what the next stage is, are watching and will say if they need to break routine for some reason. 

Rigid rules and a defined routine are what keeps a climbing pair safe, when you can't precisely hear what is said, see them, be it wind, rain, busy crag, long traverse around a corner etc... Key definitive words, 3 tugs and knowing what the next step should be, so you can anticipate actions and both remain fastened to the rock/ice or on belay. 

Formic acid can damage ropes and slings... best belay well away from the buggers if they are angry.

Definitely not that!

At Stanage and other Gritstone outcrops it is not uncommon to have to go further back from the edge than walkers will be sitting to eat there sandwiches etc. Perhaps someone should be policing there behaviour and insisting they should be tied in? (given that they are 'the height of the cliff' above a drop)

Well, the whole thread is a load of tangents which aren't related to the OP. You replied to a comment of mine, which in turn related to another comment talking about sport climbing calls. 

Loads of the comments to this thread aren't how climbing happens in reality. If people want to teach #bestpractice thats fine, but intelligent people can see this is unnecessary the vast majority of the time. Better to teach them routines which they will actually follow. Threads like this are why I never did my SPA when I started climbing...

That's a really good point that I hadn't thought of - thank you.

I've had a similar near miss when I shouted "take" but my belayer thought they heard "safe" and took me off belay. They quickly realized that something didn't add up and put me back on. I still get flashbacks once in a while even though almost 10 years passed since the incident. Since then I adopted several mitigating strategies. The main idea is to reduce the number of calls so there's less potential for confusion.

On mountain crags and especially in winter, I don't use any calls at all. If I am seconding I will keep belaying until I run out of rope, and then start climbing. If I am leading I will tell my climbing partner to keep me on belay until they run out of rope and then start climbing.

On single-pitch trad, I either say "Take me off" or "I am on belay" when I want to be taken off belay.

On single-pitch sport, I never want to be taken off belay. I only shout "Take in", "Slack" or "Climbing" and nothing else.

Edit: Oh, and I also tell my climbing partners, that I never use the word "Safe" so if they hear it they should assume they misheard.

I think you're missing the point, if someone feels they need to ask a question like this on forum then i think it's better they are taught or learn a single system, simple wording, that will keep them safe. As they accrue routes and experience they'll naturally start to make slight modifications around that initial system or phrases. Learning simple, basic, core, 'old school' phrases, means they can jump on a rope with another novice or someone very experienced and they'll both understand each other. It's nothing to do with forums, certain mindsets, spa, rci, less or more intelligent  etc.. but just learning to walk before you run. A relative beginner might have just had their brain fried leading up, a simple system, key phrases stops them going off on tangents. 

The best thing about any of the qualification course is everyone comes to it from a different route and even if grade or experience wise people might not be stretched, there is still masses to share and learn. 

A shout or tug when you've 10m of rope left might help reduce the risk you're both not moving together. But yes sometimes you can't hear, was that 3 tugs or not, so you just belay all the rope, then tentatively head off waiting to see if they take in! I've known novice leaders be so absorbed in their stance management they forget to shout climb when ready. 

Personally, I like to make sure I'm anchored at the top before I call 'Safe', as I could trip over a chalk line and don't want to take up (albeit briefly) sky diving!

Yeah, I always shout 'tight' in that situation.

I've had a similar thing when I shouted 'watch me!' in mild extremis at Gogarth. Soon after, I heard 'off belay'! A fair bit of swearing insued and I was put back on again. I think the main learning point we decided afterwards was to make surer that a possible call of 'safe!' was definitely 'safe'.

I’d agree with all the comments that say to only call safe when you’re happy to be taken off belay. However, if teaching a newer climber I would suggest you start out only calling safe once you’ve built an anchor and are attached to it - they don’t necessarily have the experience yet to always make good evaluations of risk when scrabbling about the top of a crag, and once they have that experience they’ll realise for themselves that there are situations when it’s safe to call safe without attaching yourself to the rock

By far the best climbing call is "take in slack". I find it covers most things 

People always encourage the use of short, concise calls for climbing but I think that's what causes these sorts of problems sometimes. 

You're probably not going to confuse "OKAY *NAME*, I AM SAAAAFE" with anything else you'd mutter when you're cruxing out. But just "SAFE" in isolation can sound like lots of things.

Safer, safety, safest, save, safeguard... ? 

The gold standard, is when one is secured to the top of the crag, but experience may lead you to belive an immunity to gravity, and suggest an alternative course of action. So long as they do not land on me, I do not care what they do.

Ive climbed with deaf climbers before. It is interesting to develop a system that doesn’t need any calls at all. 

in my neck of the woods we don't bother calling safe. Both climbers tie in and stay tied in. When the rope comes tight the second climbs. Simple as that really and does avoid the most dangerous outcome of the second taking the leader off before they are safely attached. Calls are pointless as they can't be heard over the waves.

But apparently doesn't avoid a new dangerous outcome of the second falling off after 10m and landing back on the ground because they weren't on belay?

So you religiously continue to pay rope through the belay device even when it's obvious that they're safe?

In fairness, this is why North Americans seem to pretty unanimously use 'tension' and 'secure'.

(Albeit I've known sport climbers to use the latter when on direct to the anchor, when they could feasibly then want a lower off or intend to ab... But that is another kettle of fish).

A call of "safe" at Stanage on a weekend is almost guaranteed to initiate half a dozen people being taken off belay.  Calling the name first is generally a good thing.

I've climbed there hundreds of times and never seen that happen. I have seen plenty of 'recheck' calls on busy days. Almost every trip on a busy day I've seen a small amount of really poor safety practice (top belays not aligned or tensioned, so the belayer could be pulled over the edge; other muddled calls ("take in slack" being the most common); very poor belaying;  poor runners where the leader didn't seem confident and good runners were possible).

I counter this risk by watching and at places like Stanage 99.9% of the time you can see your second. 

This was my first thought when I saw the thread title and whenever the subject comes up.

I find it astonishing that climbers came up with, and continue to use, a communication system where both safe and take are used.

On a windy mountain crag or a sea cliff etc, it is so easy to confuse one for the other.

Using two easily confused words which require almost opposite actions from the belayer is an accident waiting to happen.

We use so few commands when communicating with the belayer, there is no reason to use two that sound so similar.

The established call is "take in" which seems to me distinct enough,  particularly in a standard sequence. Individual climbers who shorten this to "take", on lead, in situations where sounds and sight lines could lead to confusion, are the ones taking unnecessary risks. Most experienced climbers also have backup arrangements where communication might become difficult.

Where a climber wants a tight rope for some reason "tight" is better.

R.e. miss communication, if there is the slightest chance of not being heard correctly, or I'll be out of sight of the belayer, I always agree on a system of rope tugs as a backup.  You don't need to shout at all then.

Everyone has their own system, but I do 5 for me being safe and 5 for them to climb, and I explain I'll pull the rope bloody hard! They won't mistake it for a gentle tug trying to overcome drag or something.

And if they are at all unsure, just keep belaying. That would only add a bit of extra hassle me taking the rope in until it's tight on them and they can climb.

I have actually seen it happen.  OK half a dozen is exaggeration but it happened.  After that I've always called my partner's name.  If for no better reason that it alerts them to listen out for the subsequent call.

I wasn't implying it never happened, I was just questioning how much of an issue it was, given climbers should be rechecking in such circumstances and I've long ago lost count of genuine common examples of dangerous practice I've seen up there. Climbers should really have a backup process for communication problems, be it walkie talkies or a rope tug system. Worst case on Stanage: the belayer waits, the leader ties off the rope, escapes the system and walks to somewhere they can talk and agree what's next.

At the Roaches Upper Tier many years ago.

We were climbing Pedestal Route. I’d led the first pitch and partner second pitch.  After a long delay I heard him shout On belay, climb when ready. I could see about 20m of slack. I shouted up, take the rope / slack in.  No response, a delay, then a repeated climb when ready. After several exchanges it was clear he couldn’t hear me, and was blissfully unaware just how much slack rope was hanging down.  Acoustics of being under an overhang I guess.  Eventually a large group of climbers who’d heard this exchange shouted up to my partner “***** take the **** rope in”…

As long as the climber isn't called Rafe 🙂

"Off belay Ray" isn't so good either.

Valkyrie at the Roaches is a real classic for that !

I'm guessing you know better than most that what "should" be happening is definitely NOT what always happens. 

Of course... but trad is a complex game and I think emphasis on tiny safety gains can distract from the most important factor in my view: full focus on the key risks for the leader and second. Sometimes that can obviously include communication ('obvious' on a windy Stanage day as other climbers will be visibly struggling.. yet some seem so focused on their 'routine' they miss it!)

It's funny you should mention Valkyrie as that route typifies this idea.... the 'up, across, down, across, up' line should make it clear a focus on good ropework is way more important than on 99% of other routes. One of the scariest sights I'd seen on trad was a nervous second on one rope facing the slanting downclimb to a runner at the bottom of the descent: a fall would see a swing out and back towards the arete below.

Pedestal is another potential ropework nightmare: you can't 'take in' if the rope to the second is locked in the crack at the base of the finishing groove. It's almost essential to use a directional runner to keep the rope(s) out of that crack.

yes but its never obvious. and the routes are 40+ meters long so its not much  of an overhead. 

but having said that the risk remains that the leader percieves the rope is tight but the second doesn't. In that case a radio is essential.

I'm going to Morrocco next week and radios aren't allowed as they are apparently military assets. I'm going ot have to find another way. The pitches are 50m so communications aren't necessarily going ot be straightforward. Rope tugs are a bit shit too as a jam in the line will stop all tugs. I guess I'll have to ring my second. Lets hope they hang on to their iphone!

Bit of a faff, but in this scenario you can clove hitch into the rope and self belay until you reach a height where communication is easier or the rope unsnags and the leader feels it go loose.

A definite advantage of double ropes I think, as it's rare that both get stuck and the second can often just climb on one until they free the other.

I didn’t read the 100s of reply’s, but I would say; call it whenever you want, just expect that immediately after doing so, you will be taken off belay… 

it would be wise to have setup a belay and clipped in to it the vast majority of the time!!!

No! Not whatever OP wants..

It's whatever OP and climbing partner want!  They can use whatever calls they want from donkey noises to Swahili *as long as* they both agree on the calls/situations and expect it. Singing from the same hymn sheet and all that

That's fine if you only ever climb with the same person.  The advantage of having standard climbing calls is that you share a common process with most UK climbers and can use them with anyone you happen to climb with. Even if the calls themselves are indistinct, you know from the sequence what they are likely to be (although mid-pitch calls for slack can confuse things)

There sometimes seems to be a perception that the standard calls are for beginners which can be dispensed with by experienced climbers, rather than a useful safety discipline.

To return to the OP's original point, I have seen enough slips and trips by people who have called "safe" to always want to be secured first.