UKC

There will be a bmc -led discussion tomorrow night,Wednesday,at the Maynard pub in Grindleford,7.30,about whether to replace old pegs with bolts. Maybe you would like to attend and add your two pennorth.
I think bolts will just make for even more polish and add to the declining standards in trad climbing.

Mitch

In reply to paul mitchell:

I can't come, but I don't like the sound of bolts replacing pegs on trad routes at Stoney.

Part of the perverse charm of Peak lime is the disgusting rotting pegs that you clip if you've got QDs to spare but you need use judgement and back up. It would change the character of the climbing to replace these with bolts, and for me there is definitely a 'thin end of the wedge' argument where we begin to lose trad routes and classic E2s that I love become boring f6bs.

I feel a bit different about replacing crucial pegs with new ones. In principle, I think it would be better if the routes just got harder as the old pegs rotted, but when I'm scared I do like to clip a nice shiny new peg!

In reply to paul mitchell: Can't attend but I'd just like to say I love Stoney just the way it is! No extra bolts needed - the majority of routes are pretty well protected my natural means anyway, more so than a lot of other Limestone crags.

If some pegs must be replaced, let the bolts be placed in such a way so that the routes still maintain their traditional value, and not just become yet another polished Peak Lime sport route!

I also can't make the meeting ... but I'm 100% against bolts on Stoney. The Wye Valley (S Wales) has shown that pegs can be replaced, although I believe the routes should become harder if pegs can't be replaced.

In reply to paul mitchell: Thanks Mitch, some useful pre-meeting publicity. Unfortunately there’s no link to my proposal, so it’s hard for folk to get the facts. Hopefully someone (e.g. Mrs Offiwdth) might be able to provide such a thing. Just to address a few points:

I don’t find rotting, disgusting pegs charming; I find them dangerous and pointless. They are one of the reasons Peak trad limestone is in decline.

Some of these “charmers” cannot be backed up; in other places they can be and perhaps those should simply be removed and their ex-placement cleaned and left.

I am not proposing retrobolting trad routes.

“Thin end of the wedge” is a phrase, not an argument.

Bolts already exist at Stoney.

These ideas are just being kicked around tomorrow night, nothing will be decided until the next meeting (April?) It's a chance for this to get a good airing before any action is taken. I love democracy, me.

Fangs a lot.

In reply to paul mitchell:

It seems you have all completely misread the document (if you've even received the document). It clearly states that bolts are an absolute last resort. The other options are removing a peg and doing nothing more (either because it doesn't change the nature of the route, or it has revealed a good natural placement. Next favourable is replacing the peg with another peg.

The very last option is replacing the peg with a bolt. One piece of fixed gear (where there was always a piece of fixed gear) doesn't make a sport route. I'm not sport climber, and even I know that one bolt doesn't make a sport route!

Molehills are not mountains. Like for like replacement of fixed gear is nothing new, and replacing old knackered pegs with bolts is also nothing new.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

The "charm" of "disgusting rotten pegs" was a little tongue in cheek. I won't fight for them to be retained (but I will miss them on a sentimental level because on one of my first trips to Stoney I fell off, all my gear ripped and the ensuing whipper was arrested by a rotten old peg!).

"The thin end of the wedge" is a phrase which neatly summarises a well-understood model of argument but from Dan's post it sounds like it doesn't apply here.

Thanks for the work involved in this, sounds like truly sensible ideas to keep Stoney a unique and characterful place to go climbing (what do they say about faint praise?).

P.S. Is there a discussion of filling in Horseshoe Quarry at any point?

In reply to Dan Lane:


Hi Dan,

Bit of confusion is understandable here as there are three items on the agenda relating to fixed gear (with overlap) of which two have documents which can be found here http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?id=2794 but Martin's piece on Stoney specifically doesn't have any associated paperwork (yet?)



4. Peak Area general guidelines to placing bolts and other fixed gear

5. BMC Position on Drilled Equipment

6. Fixed Gear Replacement at Stoney (Martin Kocsis)

In reply to Jon Stewart:

You'd have to hope so. It always baffles me why people climb away from the Main Wall, which is pretty classic in my opinion. Most of Horseshoe is a disgusting toilet, but I guess it keeps the crowds away from underused trad limestone venues in the Peak. Oh, erm, hang on!

In reply to paul mitchell: Hi Martin.Democracy is always right? If 98 people out of 100 vote to bolt a serious existing route,at whatever venue,then that decision is ok,because democratic?

The more bolts at Stoney,the more it will resemble Raven Tor,with
overambitious climbers hanging on them for hours,just polishing the holds even more.
Horseshoe is indeed a toilet;please don't try and convert the main crag at Stoney to something similar,polished and characterless.
Bolts have a habit of proliferating very quickly.
If people aren't good enough to climb at Stoney any more ,maybe that is because they have given in to the easy option of safely bolted routes.
Bolted routes are in general just junk food;not very satisying.
They also detract from trad routes whose holds they may share.

I have already spotted chipped holds at Stoney,added recently.Bolting just encourages chipping,as it involves a lack of respect for the rock,
following the modern malaise that we must have everything now.I have done a few bolted new routes,but decided fairly quickly that bolted routes are not very satisfying.

One of my routes,fairly serious,Breathing Underwater,has been spoiled by the addition of bolts to the wall just left.Things could get very heated,with people disagreeing over whether or exactly where bolts should be placed.They are already messing things up.
Think of your proudest moment at Stoney,when maybe you clipped an old peg and bravely carried on.Want someone to bolt that placement?Who is to decide when a peg needs replacing? A committee?A committee of the willing?

In reply to Frank the Husky:
I cant make it but...

I would strongly support removal of all old pegs.

I would not support like for like replacement - pegs are no better than bolts in terms of visual impact and just introduce an element of objective danger, especially over time, over which the climber or his/her ability has no control. Also, what happens if one fails - more likely than with a bolt. Could someone end up in court? Widescale placent of.new.pegs is somewhere we dont want to go imho.

I would support bolts replacing pegs on routes that are already part-bolted.

I would support bolts replacing pegs on trad routes at Stoney where it was only 1 or 2 in the route, where it was felt the overall feel of the route wouldnt be changed, and where just removing the pegs without replacement would increase the grade of the route. Where the difficultt increase would be small, id prefer no bolts or pegs.

In reply to paul mitchell:


Fair enough


That is a fairly bizarre anti-bolt argument Mitch.

In reply to Si dH:

This man is talking sense!

In reply to paul mitchell: don';t know the crag but sounds to me like it should be bolted

In reply to paul mitchell: I find it quite hard to swallow these arguments about poor style when they come from someone who thinks it's acceptable to leave a route like this: http://yorkclimbers.com/forum/topics/aving-the-crack?xg_source=activity (ukc thread: http://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/t.php?t=466637 )

In reply to paul mitchell: There seems to be an idea that bolts don't rust.They do. Also,who decides what an 'old' peg is?
A friend of mine once replaced a bolt on Kingdom Come at Stoney.Within a few weeks it had come out with a fall.It had been placed in cracked rock.
Over decades there are going to be a lot of rusting bolts and drilled holes and cement making the rock unsightly.

Like I said,one of my routes has already been spoiled by the addition of bolts to the neighbouring rock.It is not a bizarre argument to
say that usually,bolts represent a victory of greed over courage.
Nor is it a bizarre argument to say that hold chipping frequently accompanies bolt use.Cheedale has many chipped holds.I watched an activist there in the 80's in the pouring rain,when I guess he thought no other climbers wouldd be there.He was chipping my project with an ice axe.
I will not be naming him,to spare his blushes.
Bolt placers rarely have an eye for the aesthetic.
Nor,on the whole,do they think it a good idea to leave routes to get harder. Thin end of the wedge is a phrase,and also the thin end of the wedge for an anti bolt argument.

In reply to remus: As for plastering a route with chalk,that will wash off with the next rain shower,as I said at the time.Bolts do not wash off in the rain,although,like pegs,they do rot in water.I am talking about the long term effect on the rock.Chalk is very temporary.

As I said at the time,let's see what methods you use in your mid 50's when you are weaker.Many routes and problems are covered in chalk ticks.I am not the only one doing it.been going on for decades.Like I say,it washes off.Chipped holds do not.

In reply to paul mitchell:

As Moff (Mrs Offwidth) is off on a busy work day and has to maintain strict independance anytway, I'll comment.

This is a initial discussion document being circulated for advanced notice and it's not formally on the agenda as it was too late for that and I think its fair enough to say it wont get any final decision tonight as a result. If people desperately want a copy they should go to the BMC website and log on to the Peak Area Community page. If you try this and it doesn't work email me through this site (not Moff as she won't be checking her BMC email account today and as we live in Nottingham and traffic is busy on the way to the meeting we can't mess around after work).

On the debate, I get your arguments about modifying harder routes but why would this apply to an E1 that is dependant on a peg that is rotting and is say E3 or E4 without. Or in another case a classic VS with no alternative to an unreliable mid-point rotting peg belay? Too many people leads to polish but too few leads to vegetation and greater susceptability to frost damage. 'Frank' has made the point there are already plenty of bolts on the crag (some arguably less justified than those that might be placed even in the unlikely case his proposals are agreed without modifications).

As Shark rightly points out there is also a danger of muddling this very specific proposal for Stoney with another more general document providing guidelines on bolting and fixed gear on Peak limestone that has been extensively discussed several times before and modified accordingly and is on the agenda for agreement.

In reply to paul mitchell:

So that was around 30 years ago? It's not that frequent then is it? Weren't the recent chipped/damaged holds at Stoney on the bouldering? This won't be down to the bolts will it? Or does bolting lead to bouldering as well?

It sounds like you have a genuine grievance R.E. your route being spoiled but bolting does not lead to 'decline in trad' (or however you put it) or chipping.

In reply to paul mitchell:

Can we have a list of routes with old pegs at Stoney - one that might be candidates for bolting?

For starters I can think of:
Padme -
Bitterfingers -
Scoop Wall -
Our Father -
Windhover -
Pendulum -
Compositae Groove -

Personally I would be against any of those having bolts added.


Chris

Thanks for all the comments, whatever side of the "argument" you're coming from. I'm withdrawing the proposal and will not be presenting it now or at any point in the future.

No one has put any pressure on me, I would like to say that. If they had done, I would have said "bollocks to you" and proposed the wholesale retrobolting of the world. There's a very dull reason for it so everyone can just sit back and relax tonight instead.

Still, interesting discussion innit and generally quite level headed.
Fangs a lot, y'all.

In reply to paul mitchell: I like to see old useless pegs on routes, they give you a clue you might be going the right way.
I think it was on Desolation Row in the Great Zawn, or it might have been Candy Man, I passed a peg without clipping in with a ground fall in the offing, my seconds shouted up pointing out that I'd missed it
'No, I said' It's so crap I don't want to lull myself into even thinking it would slow me down'
If it was Candy Man I made a couple of moves and got a bomber 2 friend in, the only decent runner on the route, 2 moves above it I fell off as a hold broke, fel about 20ft ably held by Geraldine whose face was a picture, she couldn't understand why I wasn't coming down.
I said 'well we know the pro is good now don't we'
Overbolting trad routes would take all that fun away, and of course the judgement reqired to survive which has alwas been a huge and noble part of our sport.

In reply to paul mitchell:

Unfortunately I can only sit and gripe from the sidelines of the Fens but I'd certainly like to see someone remove the bolt that you can easily clip from the traverse of the VS classic Evasor.

With the steady increase of bolts on last great bastions of adventure climbing in the peak (Stoney, High Tor) we can safely say Ken's thin end of the wedge has sneaked bast us almost unnoticed.

In reply to GrahamD:

Stoney - The last great bastion of adventure climbing.

How we laughed...

In reply to paul mitchell:

The BMC position seems pretty sensible, pegs only replaced with bolts as a last resort, if conventional trad gear or replacement peg is unavailable. Now those replacement pegs might well be "unreliable", but this is trad climbing, there's supposed to be some element of judgement involved.

Turning Stonney into an extended Horseshoe Quarry would loose all the history (as well as some good routes) of Stonney as one of the original forcing grounds of hard limestone climbing courtesy of Tom Proctor et al. Also interesting that a lot of the routes on the main wall at Horseshoe started as trad routes (admittedly mainly peg protected).

Brannock

Some recent sport routes at Stoney..

http://www.sportsclimbs.co.uk/mainpages/peak/Garage%20Buttress.htm

17 now on Garage Buttress.

In reply to GrahamD:


That'll be Gary Gibson. When it comes to putting up a new route he really doesn't give a sh!t about anyone else's experience does he? An amateur psychologist could have a field day with the obsessive behaviour and lack of empathy demonstrated.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

I'm with Chris here. We have had this debate many times and the only consensus ever reached is 'it depends'. It depends on the individual route and on the individual placement. Having discussions in such general terms gets us nowhere.

So if anyone wishes to seriously debate fixed gear at Stoney please run up a list of routes and placements that need particular attention.

Following the last debate and vote we had on this subject I had a stab at removing some of the many old pegs in Scoop Wall. My conclusion was that they are mostly more secure than they look, and getting them out would entail making a mess and damage the rock. There is plenty of other gear and they are better left to rust.

In reply to Adam Long:

Yes to all of that.

In reply to metal arms:


You missed out the rest of it ie "in the Peak" - where else is there in the Peak thats better ?


I'm sure you did. I'm thinking a doctor ecvil sort of laugh.

In reply to Adam Long:

+1

I've not done as much as I'd like at stoney, but I intend to do more there in the future. There are no doubt routes which would benefit from a single bolt as a more sustainable solution than a rotting peg, to ensure that there is traffic. However, it's going to be very route specific and from my experience I would rather see a few routes become obscure to preserve the trad character of the crag than the replacement of non-crucial (i.e. not preventing a groundfall) bolts placed. If a few routes get a bit harder as a result its not the end of the world.

In reply to GrahamD:

Sorry. I wasn't trying to be mean I just found it very funny. I don't think much the peak has any 'adventure climbing' as such. Easy access single pitch stuff is de rigeur.


One miiiillliiiioooooon bolts...

Anyway back on topic. As Adam says case by case seems the best way to approach this.

In reply to paul mitchell: Paul, you're so vehemently against adding new fixed gear to Stoney, because that makes them "easier" (amongst other reasons). How do you square this entrenched view with the fact that you added an additional peg to Honcho at New Mills without consulting anyone, and besides that, you whacked it into a friend slot? The new peg, with it's attendant bright red tat, can be seen from the chippy in StalyVegas.

My spelling is sometimes a little dodgy, but I can certainly spell "contradiction" and "busted".

XX

In reply to paul mitchell:

I have only climbed at Stoney a few times, but I'd be in support of leaving the pegs as they are. Trad climbers know the score with old pegs, it's a risk to clip them, but it's a risk to set out on the route in the first place. I think that anything other than leaving the routes as they are would change their character excessively.

In reply to paul mitchell: I am opposed to the placing of any bolts on any existing trad routes at Stoney(or indeed any trad routes elsewhere), it will change the character of the routes and potentially make them less bold. However anyone tries to justify it, it is the thin end of the wedge.
All the existing fixed protection should be left in place, it will deteriorate and disappear with time, this will also change the routes and result in some routes becoming bolder but not technically harder.
Climbers will need to man up and grow some balls to earn their E points. Climbers need to learn to treat fixed gear with suspision and not trust their lives to it.

They wouldn't get away with it on Gogarth!

In reply to Martin Haworth:

+ 1

My thoughts entirely

In reply to paul mitchell:

+1

In fact I've got a novel idea!

If there's a route with dodgy or poor gear on it, and that makes it all a bit too serious - don't f*cking climb it!

Go and find a route which isn't instead - it's not as if there's a shortage of them!!!!!

In reply to Martin Haworth:

agreed

In reply to Goucho: What a good idea

Here is a copy of Martin's document:

Stoney Middleton: A Serious Case for Treatment

I’ve climbed at Stoney for over 20 years, and many hold that so called ‘polished perversion of a crag’ in high esteem. These days it seems as if fewer and fewer people actually climb there. The Horseshoe car park is full by 10am, but at Stoney you can have your pick of the parking spots and the routes all day, every day. Perhaps this is simply as a result of changing trends, that climbers now prefer sport over trad; or perhaps trad limestone in the Peak is dying a slow death because it is uncared for, neglected and ignored.

If it’s the former, there’s nothing we can do about it, we’ll just have to suck it up and maybe hope the pendulum swings back the other way in another million years. If it’s the latter we can actually do something, we can make a difference. This proposal sets out in general terms how I would like to go about helping to restore Stoney to its former glory and in so doing, provide a blueprint for other trad limestone crags in the Peak District so that they can be restored too (subject to landowner’s permission, SSSI status, anonymous replacements to reduce liability, etc etc).

Amongst those I climb with on Peak limestone, there’s a clear view that we are lacking a coherent & pragmatic approach to fixed equipment in the area. I remember someone saying last year at an area meeting that other areas in the UK look to the Peak for leadership on fixed gear, but that simply isn’t true. Every other area - from Cornwall to Cumbria - has a more effective and clearer policy about fixed equipment and I feel (after 6 years travelling the country in my last job with the BMC) that the Peak is way behind the rest of the country when it comes to fixed gear. Gritstone is easy, and doesn’t often need thinking about, but although the new guidelines on bolts and other fixed gear on peak limestone are being developed, these are yet to be approved, let alone gain practical application. This lack of past action has led directly to the dreadful state of many trad limestone crags, and I want to do something about that. The solution is not going to be quick, and it will need planning, as well as time, effort and money, but it will make a positive and clear difference.

Stoney has the following already in place, and no one has ever objected:
• In situ pegs
• In situ bolts
• In situ threads
• Peg, thread & bolt belays
• Peg, thread & bolt lower offs

Nothing I am proposing changes any of that. I propose the following:

• Where pegs currently exist, they will be examined and if necessary & possible, replaced.
• Where bolts currently exist, they will be examined and if necessary, replaced.
• Where threads currently exist, they will be examined and if necessary, replaced.
Where a peg exists, but is impossible to replace, the following options will be considered:
.
1. Remove the peg and do nothing more because there’s a good gear placement or removal doesn’t significantly affect the grade of the route.
2. Replace the peg with a bolt.
This approach has been used successfully in Lancashire for over 2 years. It would be considered on a case by case basis, possibly reporting back to this meeting before final decisions were made.
There might be some horror - real or otherwise - at the mention of replacing a peg with a bolt, but the alternative, in those few cases, would be that a route loses the knackered peg and then goes up two or more grades and I don’t think that’s acceptable. It’s OK for an E1 to go up to E4 if you climb E6, but the vast majority of climbers in the UK climb between HS and E1, and I think we should absolutely consider the majority with more weight than the minority when making such decisions. There are some great routes at Stoney that could be lost to the majority should they increase significantly in grade. If a first ascentionist can be contacted, they should be asked about any proposal that involves a bolt, although their opinion is not the final say on the matter.
Where belays exist that are a ‘dog’s dinner’ of fixed gear, they should be replaced with a bolted station.
The bolt for bolt replacement should be done by the Peak Bolt Fund, and I propose the bolt for peg solutions should also be funded this way.
I am proposing that we adopt this fixed gear policy for Stoney Middleton which, if agreed and successful, could then be applied to other crags with appropriate local modifications. The introduction of some extra bolts to the routes at Stoney and the creation of safe, bolted belays (where no other trad alternative exists) is not the thin end of any wedge, and will not lead to the destruction of trad limestone in the Peak. Rather, doing nothing and carrying on as we have done for the last 15+ years will lead to the continued decline of this great crag amongst many others. Doing nothing - whilst an option - simply isn’t an option.

Martin Kocsis
February 2013

In reply to shark:

All a bit too general in my view.

I agree with what Adam said above: "if anyone wishes to seriously debate fixed gear at Stoney please run up a list of routes and placements that need particular attention"

In reply to shark:
"The introduction of some extra bolts to the routes at Stoney and the creation of safe, bolted belays (where no other trad alternative exists) is not the thin end of any wedge,"

No, it's a lot closer to the fat end.

" and will not lead to the destruction of trad limestone in the Peak."

Agreed, but it's hardly going to help.

" Rather, doing nothing and carrying on as we have done for the last 15+ years will lead to the continued decline of this great crag amongst many others."

Who judges that a crag is in decline? Crags aren't like ageing pop stars, to be filled with boltox when their looks start to go, and it's not the BMC's job to make one crag more (or less) popular than another.

In reply to 999thAndy:

You do understand that he didn't write that?

Boltox - you must be very proud

In reply to 999thAndy & Martin Howarth: "Thin end of the wedge" is a statement, not an argument and it's tiresome everytime someone trots that out. It undermines anything that comes after and is thoroughly meaningless. I remember a bolt debate at The Foundry in the late 80's/early 90s where Seb Grieve gave Ken Wilson a thin ended wedge. As far as I know that wedge is still under Ken's bed in Macclesfield.

I - and those I climb with - judge that the crags are in a general decline. Just go climb on any of the crags in Dovedale and you'll see what I mean. You just have to look around.

It may not be the BMC's job to make one crag more popular than another, but it's certainly the BMC's job to support those who want to restore crags to a better state. That's why they have the BMC Crag Care Fund innit.

I'm generally sceptical about the case for bolts, but I think this:


is a good suggestion for anyone who wants to convince people otherwise. It's a lot easier to discuss stuff rationally if you've got something specific to discuss.

In reply to Frank the Husky: Could it be the case, that the general decline in activity on certain limestone 'trad' crags, has nothing to do with poor in-situ gear, but a lot more to do with the trend to climb predominantly on 'sport' limestone crags.

Just a thought?

Either way, there does seem to be in insidious trend in retro-bolting, and the sanitisation of climbing these days.

What's wrong with a bit of adventure?

In reply to paul mitchell:
Bitter Fingers would seem to be a good test case. I don't know if the peg is still there, and if it is; how trusty it is. When I was up to it (long time ago) I remember a good looking but actually poor nut placement that gave confidence to reach the peg. If the peg goes then by my memory it would have been a very serious route. If a bolt were put in its place then even I would be tempted to have a go with a clip stick (I may even have to queue) I'm not sure what the answer is

Caveat: Apologies if my emory serves me badly and the above is wrong

In reply to Goucho:

+ 100!!!

E

In reply to kevin stephens:


Bitterfingers does NOT need a bolt.


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs: I agree Chris, that was the point I was trying to make

In reply to Martin:


These bolt debates will go on until the end of time - and I'll never understand this ^^^^^^^^
If the masses prefer Horseshoe to Stoney and Stoney gets neglected then C'est la vie!

E

In reply to kevin stephens:

Yeah - I'm trying to remember my ascent of BF. One thing I'm sure about, if the peg does go and makes BF E5 or E6 - IT WON'T BE THE END OF THE WORLD! and any E4 leaders will just have to get better or go and climb something else instead.

E

In reply to paul mitchell:

The thing about peg placements is that they can only exist where the rock allows. If the route changes over time - such as by existing pegs corroding and not being replaceable - then no gear is then possible in that spot. It's just like if a wire or cam placement gets worn out. The route changes, the grade may need to change too. We wouldn't dream of replacing a blown-out wire placement with a bolt so why the hell should we be considering a blown-out peg placement with one?

My view is that protection of a climb should either be entirely dictated by the placements currently available (wires, cams. pegs) or should be properly sport-bolted. The former should happen at trad crags, the latter at sport crags. Mixing the two has almost never led to a compromise worth having. And if a trad crag ends up seeing a lot less traffic than a sport crag, that's fine. Diversity is good. Remember in the 90s when it seemed that everyone and his dog was into redpointing and nobody wanted to onsight trad any more? Well that changed and we'renow seeing huge numbers of hard onsight attempts. I see nothing to sugest that limestone trad may not see a similar revival. Except, that is, if someone ends up putting bolts in many of them and making trad ascents then impossible.

In reply to john arran:

Wise words John. Some very good points there.

E

In reply to Enty:

I agree wholeheartedly with this. One of the pleasures of climbing at Stoney is the lack of people. It's not like the crag needs any more people polishing it up.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

'the crags are in a general decline'. What does that mean? They are becoming less attractive to climbers because less traffic means more dirt and veg? They are falling down and the routes can no longer be done? As somebody said - 'c'est la vie'. I have to admit that I feel that bolting routes to make them more 'attractive' is a flawed solution to a perception that crags and routes on them should be maintained in a pristine and scrubbed clean condition for climbers.

'it's certainly the BMC's job to support those who want to restore crags to a better state' begs the question of just what is 'a better state' doesn't it? A thriving eco-system? A natural environment? A well scrubbed sport venue?

I'm happy that the BMC engages in action that seeks to conserve the general mountain/crag environment. But I guess I view that as signs, stiles, path maintainance etc rather than converting crags to bolted venues.

And refusing to accept the relevance of the phrase 'thin end of the wedge' (I don't know what on earth you mean by 'a statement, not an argument') ignores the reality that we have all seen over the last 40 years of the odd Trojan Horse that leads on to further 'development'. There have been quite a few wedges smacked into UK climbing. I've even got one of them that I pulled out of one of those crappy crags in Dovedale.....

In reply to paul mitchell:
just a thought, if say a peg that wasn't visible from the ground was removed, the grade went up for example, from E1 to E4 then how would people know this if they went to make an onsight attempt going on the latest guide book grade of E1?

I don't agree with putting bolts up in trad venues but i do agree with saving lives. If a Peg was put in on the first ascent then there needs to be fixed gear at that point of the route or if not some way of alerting people wishing to climb that route.

any thoughts?

In reply to jon_gill1:
The point is that once you take the peg out and the guide reflects the grade, people know where they stand. At the moment its a lottery because the pegs are unreliable.

In reply to jon_gill1:

That's life. Holds fall off routes, pegs rot, plants grow. We absolutely must not rely on guidebooks for our safety, we need to rely on our judgement.


If you're on a trad route and you're relying on fixed gear being as for the first ascent in order not to die, you need to get more experience or give up and go sport climbing instead.

In reply to Si dH:

You're not telling me you climb a route with a peg in it and rely on the peg being 100% safe are you?

E

In reply to Enty:
no but if that is the piece of gear that creates the grade then i think it is a point to be considered.

In reply to paul mitchell:

I don't understand why pegs cant be replaced by bolts. I personally don't think pegs are a solution. Importantly I'm a trad climber and I don't want to climb sport routes. But I don't want to climb grotty peg routes either.

I have the perfect solution (go with me).... - I'd have in mandated that no bolt can be placed except in replacement for a peg/fixed gear. That removes the 'thin end of the wedge' blah it's all going to become sport climbing argument. I'd look at most climbs and remove all none essential pegs. I'd replace the one or two with bolts. I think this would work.

Most trad limestone routes have anywhere between 5-10 pegs. I'd like to see those routes with 1 or 2 bolts and the rest permanently removed. The character of the route is preserved and it becomes purer and has a much greater reliance on natural pro (or run outs over gear you know will hold).

Part of why I love climbing is the decision making and self reliance. I can look at a wire an assess it's quality and base my climbing approach on that. With a peg it's a case of clip n pray. Which is shit. It's fixed gear but not reliable. It's the worst of both worlds.

In reply to shark:
Pity that the knee jerk has kicked in before this discussion could get off the ground, but well
done to Martin for trying to stimulate a debate on this subject.

Have to say I'm always amazed that Stoney is held in such high regard by people, even by peak standards the rock quality is average at best. But I do recognise that it has history and fond memories for many people.

So we do nothing, and the crag gets neglected whilst others are crowded.....

In reply to jon_gill1:

Obviously. The new grade is probably higher and it will be out of reach of a few more people.

E

In reply to Kemics:

Because pegs go in a natural crack.


Eh?


You can look at a peg and get a fair idea whether to trust it or not.


Chris

In reply to Si dH:

Where a peg is crucial to protect a route, I think the guidebook should say something like: "clip the peg and/or take a deep breath", or "an old peg may protect the next moves..." or whatever.

I really don't think we should be aiming for routes that don't change over time, where we expect gear to be good and think it's someone else's fault if we fall off and die because we took a massive lob onto an old peg and it failed. If you want to climb safe routes, pick safe ones, not ones which have crucial old pegs.

Take Scoop Wall is a good example: perfectly safe without the pegs, just slightly longer potential falls. No need to replace at all.

But the Windhover/Flakes etc start would be bolder without the peg, as you'd have to do a couple of unprotected moves. Given that the start is already very much the crux and the routes are great and popular, there is in my mind justification for replacing that one if it's really dodgy (I've clipped it many times, seemed 'alright' to me :-/). If it really can't be replaced, since it's crucial to 3 big routes and is the difference between groundfall (well, ledgefall) and safe I could see the justification for a bolt there, but it would feel uneasy. I think the ethically uneasy bolt would be a fair trade-off for keeping the routes alive.

In reply to Si dH: Maybe a worthwhile statistical exercise for the BMC would be to do a study on the number of deaths directly associated with the failing of pegs on routes in say the last 10 years.

At least then a proper appraisal of the apparent danger could then be brought to the debate.

In reply to Chris Craggs:

My local crag is avon. which is essentially grid pegged. 5-10 pegs on some routes is a conservative estimate Some belays have 5 grotty pegs alone.

In reply to Enty:
yes i agree but my point is that if the pegs were removed then short of putting signs up below every route then people would not know. Obviously you could keep reprinting guide books. my point was merely something to ponder on, i don't think there is a definitive answer to my question.

In reply to jon_gill1:
*couldn't*

In reply to Frank the Husky:

hahaha frank,you big hairy hound the O.P seems to ignoring the point you have made there.hardly surprising really.

In reply to paul mitchell: I don't accept that Stoney is "in decline", it may not be enjoying as much attention as in the 80's, but I've noticed an increase in climbers there in the last 2 years since some areas of the crag were cleaned up.
Fashions change in climbing and a time may come when bold trad limestone is back in fashion. We should see ourselves as guardians of the crags and look to pass them on to the next generation without their character changed.
In climbing, unlike most aspects of our life, progress does not always mean reducing risk.

In reply to Jon Stewart: Jon, you don't seem totally convinced by your own arguement regarding a bolt on Windhover.

In reply to Chris the Tall:


It was my evening limestone crag when I worked in Sheffield. The Windy Ledge routes are good, most of the others are indifferent, and many are dreadful. I have warm memories of climbing at Stoney but anyone who travels to climb there is mental. There's a comment on Rockfax which sums it up well:

"Stoney is, I feel, a somewhat odd, esoteric and perverted kind of pleasure these days. The polish is astonishingly well developed but lends a certain something to the character and difficulty of the routes... it lends a pleasure something akin to the pleasure of enjoying beautiful women with hairy legs and permanently lactating bosoms." - Ed Thatcher

In reply to Martin Haworth:

No, I'm not - it's very much in the balance. I think it's a trade-off thing. We needn't worry about it yet, since it's only if the peg is obviously unsafe and it can't be replaced that it needs worrying about.

I am categorically against placing bolts as anything other than a last resort. But I think as a last resort, a bolt could potentially keep 3 good, popular routes being climbed rather than being forgotten. And no one really likes that start, do they? It's bad enough without having groundfall potential, surely?

In reply to Jon Stewart: The start to Windhover is probably tech 6a, and the peg seems good. If the peg deteriorates or goes, the route will still be tech 6a, but E3 rather than E1/2.

Put a bolt where the peg is and people will clip stick the bolt and the route will be F6b/hvs.

In reply to Martin Haworth:


Would they? Go out for an evening's trad climbing with a clip-stick? Why wouldn't they just climb it exactly how we do now, putting a wire in and then clipping the bolt once it's in reach?

If you're into clip sticks and all that jazz, surely Windhover would have very little appeal as a route. The people I know who own a clip stick would not use one to climb an HVS (or to make an E1/2 into an HVS), they'd use one to work an f7b+.

In reply to Martin Haworth:
surely if people wanted to they could clip stick a peg as well as a bolt. that's up to them if they want to spoil the feel of the route?

In reply to Martin Haworth:

What would stop them stick clipping a peg? It's a very long time since I did this route and can't remember it at all, let alone the peg placement.

In reply to Martin Haworth:


+1

Very well said Martin.

Personally I would have thought the BMC could find a better use for it's time and money than debating and funding yet more bloody bolts - aren't there enough already for gods sake!!!

In reply to Goucho:

Hey Gouch, have you ever climbed Scary Canary at Pen Trwyn?

In reply to Goucho:
>

I think they have managed to shift most of them: http://www.pbase.com/chris_craggs/image/122148350


Chris

In reply to jon: No jon, why?

Gouch

In reply to Martin Haworth: I agree that climbers need to make their own judgements about using fixed gear, however with pegs this is very difficult to do. I wonder if those confident advocates of 'adventure' would feel the same if they or a close friend had taken a ground fall (because of failed fixed gear at Stoney), broken their pelvis and several vertebrae and can't now control their bowel movements.
I regularly climb at Stoney and agree that wholesale replacement of pegs with bolts would be a bad thing, but it would be a shame if some crucial placements were lost. If I sound a bit confused it's because I am. I don't think there's a simple answer, for local climbers who want to continue to climb there, but not risk death and disorder.
ps. some women climb now and may find the phrasing about manning up and growing a pair a little annoying (as I do).

In reply to mikeyratty: I'm sorry about what happened to your friend, but if the same incident had happened on a runner that was placed, how would you rationalise that?

And, don't most climbers accept that in-situ pegs, should never be considered 100% safe - especially if they look as old and battered as most of the pegs at Stoney do - it's a judgement call.

In reply to Goucho: So in some cases the judgement call is to use the peg (including rubbish lower offs) or not use it and there is sometimes no suitable alternative. You have to actually make the choice when you're not on the ground or sat in front of a computer.
It was the rather macho posturing of some posts I was getting at, as well.

In reply to mikeyratty:

Yes, that's what climbing is all about.

In reply to paul mitchell:
interestingly i climbed Froth a couple of weeks ago to find that an ab ring had been bolted at the top of the route which is also above bitter fingers.
better than abbing off that dodgy tree i guess.

In reply to jon_gill1:

Or going a few yards left or right to a better ab point

In reply to paul mitchell:

I agree with Chris and Adam on this. You need to consider the issue on a route by route basis. When taking this approach, I can't think of a single route at Stoney where there is any justification for replacing a peg with a bolt.

In reply to paul mitchell:
So what was the consensus at the meeting?

I agree it has to be on a case by case basis. That is, as a general rule, rejected on a case by case basis

Could the proponents please provide a list of routes and details of the likely impact of the peg not being there on the current grade etc.

If accepted, I would suggest chipping some extra holds as well to make the route more accessible and relieve the pressure on Horseshoe.

In reply to jon_gill1:

FFS. It takes about two minutes to walk down from the top of Froth. What is this bolted ab ring crap? Who does this? I always assumed outdoor centres.

jcm

In reply to Martin Haworth:
Despite my previous response, I do not think wi.dhover shoukd have a peg. You simply dont need it. Clipping the peg is almost as hard as just doing the move, and you have a good nut for protection. This is a good example of a peg that should just be banged out carefully and then the rock left alone.

In reply to Si dH:
Ps or bolt

Re the proposal Martin withdrew his presentation from the agenda at last night's meeting

In reply to Goucho:


That does sum up the debate pretty conclusively!

In reply to Goucho:

But that's the whole point! A climber placing a nut or cam wil have a very good idea of how secure it is. No way can you get the same appreciation from a visual inspection of a peg, hence it is much more of a lottery.

Personally I don't get the argument that a peg fits with trad climbing because it uses a natural rock feature. For me trad has to be leader placed protection. You may just as well ab down and pre-place all the nuts.

A lot of Stoney's original peg placements date from original aid ascents, or a time when trad gear wasn't as technically advanced.

Maybe time to get rid of all the pegs?

In reply to mikeyratty:


Sounds grim, can I ask what route that was off?


Chris

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Are you sure that quote wasn't Margaret Thatcher, she is the most likely woman to slag it off having put so much into it in the early seventies.

In reply to shark: 'I’ve climbed at Stoney for over 20 years, and many hold that so called ‘polished perversion of a crag’ in high esteem. These days it seems as if fewer and fewer people actually climb there. The Horseshoe car park is full by 10am, but at Stoney you can have your pick of the parking spots and the routes all day, every day. Perhaps this is simply as a result of changing trends, that climbers now prefer sport over trad; or perhaps trad limestone in the Peak is dying a slow death because it is uncared for, neglected and ignored.'

Of maybe it is just that todays wall fed climbers don't have the 'spirit' that was going around the climbing circuit in the 60's and 70's. Climbing on Peak Lime was always a big adventure compared to grit. You expected to battle your way up loose rock and through prickly bushes and come out at the top (if you were lucky) bloodied , bruised but elated.
Thats whats gone, and its why Peak lime is no longer popular, it was the adventure of it all, dodgy pegs were a part of it. I can't believe somebody has put in an abseil point for Froth. a route me and Jack Street used as a training route for alpine bivvis by going up to the ledge one winter night after the pub and kipping on the belay ledge. The following morning it was my pitch (as far as we could remember) and as I did the traverse with icicles hanging from the lip of the overhang, spindrift avalanches poured down behind me.
We got over the little overhang at the end and happily abseiled off the tree, so what is this F*****g abseil point all about? The tree has to be 50 years older now. If it's a problem surely a stake would be better than a bolt anchor?

In reply to shark:

>"Re the proposal Martin withdrew his presentation from the agenda at last night's meeting"

Replacing rusty pegs with good bolts does "sound" logical in terms maintaining historical grades for climbs but I guess, these days, people have just upped their ethics game. We shouldn't bined ourselves with history if there is room for improvement.

I agree with those who advocate that all leader placed protection on Stoney routes is the way forward.

I'd be happy to see the pegs removed and wait for the trad limestone revival to come along before we see the new bold grades on offer for bolt/peg free repeats. I expect some routes would become unjustifiable for most of us. It is a matter of opinion whether that enhances a route or destroys it but either way, over the piece, it's got to be better than having routes with slowly increasing risks that snap on the unwary.

Having said that, I'm all in favour of replacing manky tat lower-offs with rings where there are no other safe alternatives.

For the record, I've only been to Stoney once and didn't climb - I'd previously written trad limestone off but my quick look around put it firmly back on the agenda.

In reply to JLS:

There is an argument that be replacing a peg by a bolt you make the route easier and therefore you actually lower the grade. There is a particular skill to tying off a peg one handed which simply isn't needed with a clip and go.

In reply to GrahamD:

>"There is an argument that be replacing a peg by a bolt you make the route easier and therefore you actually lower the grade."

Agreed! I'd certainly be prepared to "run it out" further above a good bolt than a rusty peg.

In reply to Al Evans:
>

Worth remembering though that Stoney was the 'climbing wall' of the day, plus transport was hard to come by. Stoney has had its heyday but that is no reason to treat the old lady with disrespect - there are still some great route there,

Chris

In reply to Martin Haworth:

Sorry guys I must be thinking of a different Windhover at Stoney. Its got umpteen pegs, not of which are needed.

The start crux is protected by a solid small wire in a crack, you don't clip the peg till you have actually done the move do you?

cheers
mark

In reply to Mark Westerman:

These 'umpteen' pegs must certainly have appeared post 90's which was probably the last time I did it. Even when I first did a very early ascent just post it being an aid route I think therte were a maximum of four pegs in it, and I can only remember them reducing over the years.

In reply to Al Evans:
hi Al, Yes i was as shocked as you were about the bolt ab point when i clambered on to the ledge,looked up and saw a gleeming new ring. The first time i did the route a couple of years ago it was not there. I didn't like the fact it was there and don't know who would put it there.....but i must say that perhaps it will increase the life span of the tree? I think with things like this we have to consider all the points.

Also regarding the fact of stoney being neglected, i think its more a case of when people climb somewhere for a time they tend to run out of things to do and move on to new venues and adventures. However i have barely scratched the surface with Stoney, having only been climbing ten years in total i enjoy the challenge of climbing historical routes with the added fun of the polish in a place like stoney. I think it has a huge amount to offer and that if people want to climb rock such as this on bolts they should go abroad for their hard route pushing and clip bolts in the sun as i do myself.

We have an obligation in my view to take care of this great part of British Trad climbing and preserve for not just my generation (20's-30's) but for the next generation and the ones after that. The very fact that this ring seems to have been placed there without the knowledge of anyone on this thread is a worry to me and that things like this could keep happening under people noses!

In reply to paul mitchell:

I've always considered Stoney as a trad 'training' crag, with it's own unique character and I've always thought it would benefit from having a few bolts replacing the rotting ironmongery (after all, there is already the odd bolt on Circe, etc). I would stick one in the start of Kingdom Come, then it might get climbed once in a while. And I would replace the pegs on Our Father with a bolt or two. I've climbed enough routes in the States and Canada (and Australia) to know that the odd bolt doesn't necessarily spoil a 'trad' route (see Circe - above), nor do you have to have crags that are only sport or only trad (I completely disagree with John Arran on that.. after all that's exactly what most Peak Limestone crags are - a mix of sport and trad).

I wouldn't put any bolts in Scoop Wall as it doesn't need them, but the alternative for Our Father is to ensure an esoteric classic never gets climbed, which would be a shame. Same detail with Bitter Fingers when that peg goes (unless there is a wire placement right next to it, which there may well be - I haven't done it for a while). I have climbed at Stoney a lot over the years and really enjoy going there. For many of us who want a quick trad hit post-work, it would be great if Stoney got a bit more traffic, the odd bolt here and there might help with that.

In reply to Mark Westerman:

I was trying to remember. I think you clip the peg having already done the hard move, but if it wasn't there I think there'd be a bit of groundfall potential before getting to the rest and more gear? I'd have to do it again to be sure, which is unlikely since I'm not driving 2h to climb at Stoney (although Flakes Direct and Armageddon are certainly good routes).

In reply to Tom Briggs:



What makes it a 'training crag' ? surely trad training crags if ever there were such things would be the gear friendly crags of Pembroke. Stoney is (or was) a trad crag and as near to an adventure crag as you would get in the peak.

Its main drawback used to be polish, apparently. Now its being neglected, apparently !

In reply to GrahamD:

It's near Sheffield - one for evening cragging rather than a trip.

And if you don't live in Sheffield, why the hell would you climb at Stoney?

In reply to Jon Stewart:

why wouldnt you? nowt wrong with it!

In reply to jon_gill1:

I've done quite a few routes at Stoney over the years and we'd usually be driving down from Lancashire.
During the week when decisions on the weekend's climbing were being made and someone said "Where we going at weekend then?". I never heard Stoney mentioned as an option.

E

In reply to GrahamD:



Typically a good training crag is:

- close to where you live and close to the road
- climbable in bad weather
- contains steep pumpy climbs for doing laps on for top roping
- good for bouldering
- good for quickly ticking a number of routes in a short visit

In reply to Jon Stewart:

Scoop Wall, Alcasan, Oliver, Armageddon, The Flakes, Our Father?


Chris

In reply to Jon Stewart:

As well as the peg, I'm sure there's good gear within reach.

In reply to shark:


A climbing wall, in other words. Not a trad crag at all.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


It might surprise you that its one of the closest trad Limestone crags to Cambridge and its relatively sheltered with a selection of quality routes. Thats why I climb there.

In reply to GrahamD:


If you can do laps on Pickpocket and Wee Doris the Pembroke E5's will feel like piss.

In reply to shark:

I found doing laps on Wee Doris OK (not so Cabbage Crack), but I can still fall off the odd Pembroke E2!

The ab point at the top of Mortuary Steps could do with replacing, other than that I don't see the need for any new bolts at Stoney at the moment.

In reply to various: There are some useful and pragmatic comments on here. Theres'a also some meaningless nonsense too e.g. "man up", "thin end of the wedge" and all that crazy shizzle, but this is turning into a useful resource. Fangs a lot.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

I'm sure it is, but wouldn't it have been more useful before producing your 'paper'?

In reply to paul mitchell:

A bolt to protect the move from the path onto windy ledge would be usefull

Thanks

In reply to Frank the Husky:

A lot of the meaningless nonsense comes from you Mr Husky, most of your comments are attacks on the phrasing of other peoples comments rather than comments to support your proposal.
I think you have mis judged the mood of the Stoney climbing fraternity but your subsequent withdrawal of the proposal is very welcome, so lets leave it at that.
Stoney is fine as it is and will continue to attract climbers for generations to come, both young and old.

In reply to Martin Haworth:
I think it's a shame Martin pulled his proposal. It's important that these issue are discussed, else we end up with one or two locals deciding without a consensus opinion on what should or shouldn't be done at the crag, ie the new bolted ab point above Bitterfingers.

In reply to Albert Tatlock:
Excellent! I 2nd the motion! I dropped my Sigg last time I tried! I propose a Via Ferrata and all the benefits this would bring ... improved disabled access, OAA centres can take kids there safely and you wouldn't fall off when sleeping/drunk.

In reply to Jon Stewart:
I like Stoney and always happy to go there from Birmingham. Why?
- great routes, often hard for the grade
- quick drying
- South facing suntrap out of the wind
- easy access
- hardly anyone else there!

In reply to mark20: Or we could just leave a trad crag, as a trad crag - the sport climbing ethos and retro-bolting doesn't have to be applied to every square inch of limestone!

And someone ought to chop the bolted ab point above Froth/Bitterfingers, and replace it with a sign on the tree, pointing to the way down.

I doubt that bolt will last very long...

In reply to paul mitchell:

Thats funny....I always do a route or two at Stoney when I come over from Las Vegas...its like going to the dentist, not really a ton of fun but somehow an essential tick.
Pegs/bolts..who cares...but if you could find a way to get rid of that glassy sheen on all the holds then you'd be talking!

In reply to shark:

The reason the item was withdrawn was that it was felt that the item had been satisfactorily discussed at the Peak area meet in Glossop in September. For those of us, like Martin and I, who weren't able to make that meeting, the discussion as minuted as follows:

"Limestone Route Restoration:

Ian Carr gave some information to illustrate his concerns on the condition of limestone trad routes and their fixed protection. At the moment there seems to be a trend that cleaning trad routes is on the decline, and the quality of in-situ fixed gear (pegs and threads) is deteriorating, whereas the pressure from some quarters to bolt routes is on the increase. There needs to be a culture shift to promote Peak Limestone trad climbing to include cleaning routes and replacing like-for-like gear, considering bolted lower offs etc. He questioned if there should be a list of routes/crags that should remain purely trad? It was acknowledged that even with the future publication of the next guidebook, the quality of trad routes on some lesser limestone crags may continue to decline.

In various areas like The Manifold and Chee Dale and all National Trust owned crags organisations like the Staffordshire and Derbyshire Wildlife Trusts want to have a say on what can and cannot be touched in relation to vegetation on routes: this may require a rethink including the potential benefits of bolted lower-offs to prevent damaging the sensitive vegetation on top-outs. It is imperative that we all think about the future of Limestone climbing in The Peak. An example given was, what will happen to the route Kellogg – are the rusty, unreliable pegs to be replaced like-for-like or will it get re-bolted if nothing is done? In the discussion that followed there was clear support for some action on issues around cleaning and like-for-like replacement over retro bolting; there was general support on lower-offs in sensitive areas and a minority felt that some trad crags see so little traffic that retro-bolting might be a sensible compromise to keep routes clean and pressure off the more important trad crags.

Dave Turnbull emphasised that what Ian is proposing is in line with the current BMC thinking. For example, the Avon Gorge Project is replacing gear on a like-for-like basis. Dave proposed that a group of people be formed to take this discussion forward.
ACTION: All to note – if interested, then please contact Ian Carr."

Still sounds a tad vague to me, but having done the one route mentioned - Kellogg - some five times in the last seven years, I can confidently say it is not in need of bolting. I think there are three or four pegs, none of which are crucial, and you can get a variety of gear in to back them up. The bit up to the first peg is bold and committing, and will still be so if the peg goes or not. By the first peg you are on VS terrain and can get other gear in. The crux move around the roof is perfectly protected by a bomber wire. Placing that is the only move currently 'reliant' on pegs, though I was happy with the small cams I had in next to them. So not a candidate for retrobolting in my opinion, nor of any of the three other folk I've done it with.

Interesting to read the range of attitudes folk have towards Stoney. I've always regarded Windy buttress as a little bit of real adventure on my doorstep, not much else similar in the Peak. Routes like Alcasan, Special K, Memnon and Menopause all have sections of exposed climbing on poor rock with doubtful gear - great practice for those trips to Gogarth or Cilan. I doubt very much whether putting solid bolts in would make them more popular as you'd lose the character completely - we have enough crap sport routes on Peak lime already and they're not very popular either.

I've only done Bitter Fingers a couple of times but I doubt losing the peg would make it E5. The appearance of a bolted lower-off at Stoney is worrying as it certainly can't be justified on ecological grounds.

In reply to Adam Long: Thanks for posting those minutes, very helpful information, sounds like the concensus was for no bolts on trad routes and only like for like fixed gear replacement where absolutely necessary, which I guess is acceptable to most people.
The bolted lower off that has appeared (I think the thread said it was on Froth) needs removing.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

I think a concensus 'for no bolts on trad routes' is a good distance off the mark for the peak area meeting. I'd say there was clear majority support for bolts on trad routes in a number of difficult circumstances, notably bolted lower-offs where the top-outs were sensitive in access terms. There was even majority support for at least looking at the opposite end of the spectrum (to counter a retro-bolting pressure): for routes on the bigger trad crags where a peg for bolt replacement was proposed, in the very rare case that a crucial rotted peg couldn't be replaced, and there was poor alternative pro. Most felt such routes should be discussed individually and if there was a good case, to put it to the area meeeting. Kellog was used as an example and in my view Adam clearly won that argument (no bolt needed). Sounds like you need to come to some area meetings!

In reply to Offwidth: OK, your assessment is different to how I interpreted the minutes. I'll keep an eye out for when the area meeting are.

Offwidth:


Jon Fullwood also made an articulate case for the bad bolt on Lyme Cryme to remain and not be replaced to preserve the longstanding character of that route.

Lyme Cryme and Kellogg illustrate why a case by case consideration of routes by experienced climbers is preferable to a simplistic set of rules. Individual judgements can take into consideration a variety of factors including line, popularity, history, access, first ascentionosts wishes.

We have also been drawing up a general guidelines to fixed gear in the Peak to reflect the current consensus on what represents good practice. Although the document says it is the final draft there are a few amendments to be made following the last meeting. Also whilst it is called Peak Bolts Guidance is more than just about bolts

http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Event.aspx?view=report&id=2794

If anyone has any further sugesstions then email them to Lynn Robinson http://community.thebmc.co.uk/Profile.aspx?id=803

In reply to shark:

Actually to make it easier here's what the document (currently) says. I have to do in it in two posts because of the length

Peak Area general guidelines to placing bolts and other fixed gear.

The issue of placing and replacing fixed gear is a can of worms especially in an area as intensively climbed and clouded rich in history as the Peak District.

The purpose of these guidelines is to provide the current consensus view of what is acceptable good practice, and to raise awareness of problematic issues and the alternative views of the environment, other climbers, visitors, landowners and other users.

In applying these guidelines you should attempt to use common sense, good judgement and consideration for other people whilst weighing up the various (and sometimes conflicting) environmental, access, aesthetic, ethical, historical and safety factors . Phew. These general guidelines are supplemented by crag-specific guidelines given in the crag introductions.

Environment and Access
First and foremost: if you are gardening or (re)gearing new or existing routes, you have a (potentially prosecutable) responsibility to be aware of the environmental impact and existing access arrangements. Crags are owned by a diverse range of landowners, some of whom are conservation organisations. Some crags are located in/on environmentally sensitive areas and maybe classified as a Site of Special Scientific Interest (SSSI). Such designation affords legal protection in the UK. SSSIs are so designated by virtue of the fauna, flora, geological or physiographical features in the area, e.g. a rare or special lichen or plant or rock feature. Whilst any activity that could harm the special interest should not be carried out within an SSSI, other non-harmful activities are not restricted.
Climbing styles change with time and with them crags rise and fall in popularity. Routes may become overgrown and/or covered in ivy. Unless specifically ‘banned’ under conservation agreements, climbers should be encouraged to climb all developed routes lest they become reclaimed by nature. Where they have become overgrown re-cleaning activities should be undertaken sympathetically. The Regional Area Database (RAD) on the BMC website tends to cover the major areas well but if you are in any doubt about what is allowed, or for more esoteric locations, then call the BMC Head Office before embarking on something that might jeopardise access not only for those routes but a whole crag! The BMC Access Reps are in regular contact with the landowners and can help you get permission for what you propose. Landowners may attach stipulations, for example they may require you to add a lower-off for a trad routes to minimise the impact of trampling at the top of a crag and on descent paths.
Act responsibly. Climbers contravening agreements about access, gardening and gear has resulted in landowners withdrawing permission to climb at crags.

Aesthetics
Most people - owners, visitors and climbers alike - prefer crags to look as natural as possible. Consequently consider the visual impact of any fixed gear as it could stick out like a sore thumb to some people. Be especially conscious if a crag is owned by environmentalist organisations and in open view of a footpath. Consider painting bolts and pegs to match the rock. Brightly coloured in-situ threads can be especially intrusive and in some circumstances replacing a thread with a bolt on a trad route might override climbing ethics on aesthetic and access grounds. In sensitive areas the use of chain belays should be avoided: dual bolt lower-offs are preferred.
Leaving in-situ “perma-draws” on long term projects to all intents falls into the category of fixed gear and the same issues apply. If you see in-situ quickdraws or colourful carabineers in a place that you don’t like, be a brave soldier and take them out. You can return them to the owners via the lost and found boards on UKClimbing and/or UKBouldering.

Ethics and history
In general the coexistence of bolt and trad routes in the Peak is a triumph of commonsense and compromise – let’s try to keep it that way!
Be considerate of the history of a buttress or route. It is generally not acceptable to detract from existing classic routes (usually, but not always, trad routes). This means that adding inferior new routes with fixed gear very close to, or crossing, classic routes should be avoided - especially if the new fixed gear can be clipped from the existing line. If you are re-equipping sport routes you should consider the original character of the route in terms of any run-outs or the belay position. Greyer ethical areas apply to retro-bolting neglected existing trad routes.
Whilst the first ascentionist doesn’t have absolute rights to the original route they will undoubtedly have an emotional stake (however esoteric the route). Please be considerate and contact them for their views as your first point of call if you want to retro-bolt a route or re-equip it in a significantly different manner. Generally speaking if they approve of your plans this is likely to reduce objections. In this day and age getting in touch via social media is usually quite easy.
If the first ascentionist is un-contactable (except via a medium) then sound out your ideas with other experienced local climbers or at the BMC Peak Area Meeting. This might be a bit of pain when you are at the crag with a fully charged Hiltibosch, but in the longer term repeated placement and removal of fixed gear does nobody’s savoir faire any good. If you are planning on doing something very ambitious, like the wholesale retro-bolting of a large buttress of trad routes, then in the interests of your personal safety gaining consensus support it would be wise for you to add this to the agenda for a proper debate at a BMC Peak Area Meeting.
The following climbs are examples of routes which are of either classic/historically significant status and therefore (according to current consensus opinion) should NOT be retro bolted or crossed by new bolted lines despite being on crags which have substantial bolt-protected climbing (this list is by no means exhaustive...):
Chee Dale: Nettle Buttress - General Incompetence; Summer Wine; Terra Incognito
Chee Dale: Two Tier – Ninth Life; Mad Dogs and Englishmen
Chee Dale: Plum Buttress – Sirplum
Chee Dale: Chee Tor – Mortlock’s Arete (a re-gearing of the peg protected top pitch would present an ethical dilemma if they can’t be replaced like-for-like!); Golden Mile; Ceramic; Tequila Mockingbird (no extra bolts)

Safety
In general, bolt spacing on sport routes should make the route safe with bolts placed in good rock and in the optimal place for clipping.
Only 316/A4 stainless steel (or better) bolts and pegs should be used. Substandard bolts will corrode quickly and need to be replaced by shortly after: this leaves unsightly scars and in some cases old studs in the rock. An example of particularly poor re-equipping is Too Old to Bold at Rubicon which is already on its second set of rusty bolts.
If you are unsure about the type and grade of bolt to use then please seek expert advice or refer to the Bolting Guidance on the BMC website. If using ‘through’ style bolts then over drilling is highly recommend so that on (eventual) replacement they can be hammered home. If you are re-gearing a bolt route then the equipment and metalwork can be provided free of charge by the Peak Bolt Fund. There is a long list of Peak sport routes with dangerous gear and a shorter list of people with the time, aptitude and psyche to do the re-gearing. Volunteers to help spread the load are very welcome.

Overstepping the mark
Taking into consideration these guidelines, if you see a new piece of fixed gear which you judge is unacceptable, what should you do? If you feel strongly enough and the gear is easily removed, then remove it. The next step is to directly contact the person that did it (if possible) to understand their actions and if possible reach a resolution.
If this isn’t reached then to get a consensus view you could debate it online or put it on the agenda at the next BMC Peak Area Meeting. This generally enlivens the evening and helps bump up the numbers.

In reply to paul mitchell: Just to add my two penneth to this important discussion.

If the loss of a peg would significantly affect the difficulty or seriousness of a route, then I see no reason that replacing it like for like would be the least bit contentious. If a like for like replacement cannot be placed then a bolt should be considered. Perhaps this consideration could become a regular feature of future Peak area meetings, it may even inspire greater attendance.

With regards to the bolted absail point above Froth/Dead Banana Crack/Bitterfingers I for one am greatful for its appearance. I have absailed off the assortment of tat around the ageing (and in my oppinion fragile) hawthorns on numerous occasions, and would like to see the trees remain for may years to come.

In reply to Marcus Buckley:

Or people could just walk back down!!!

In reply to Goucho:


You haven't thought this through have you Gouch? You'd have to:

1 Invent some sort of knot to attach yourself at the top.
2 Carry a coat up if it was cold. Maybe a hot drink.
3 Carry a belay thing up - how would you do that if it was used to belay you at the bottom?
4 Invent some sort of communication system of shouts.
5 Carry your trainers up.
6 Your second would have to carry the rope bag up (suppose the trainers could go in it...)
7 Find the way down - this is now moving into realm of mountaineering.
8 Wash the mud off your stretch jeans before your mum sees it.

I think you'll agree this won't catch on.

In reply to jon: And of course, you wouldn't want to leave your bouldering mat, used to protect the first couple of moves of Froth untended either - you see this is why you're a qualified mountain guide jon

PS, as you're pretty local, what do reckon conditions on the Shroud are likely to be like end of next week?

Thinking of having a look.

Gouch.

In reply to jon:

Love this post ^^^^^^^

E

In reply to Goucho:

Local... no. I'm just up the road from Enty at the moment.

In reply to jon: I was thinking about the effort required to go up the slope above the belay at the top of the wall - very dangerous with a potential factor 2 fall. The only way to avoid this would be to go up the slope whilst on the original lead, put a sling around one of those big solid trees by the path (if it's still there) and lower (or walk/slide/climb) back down to belay at the top of the wall.

That would require a longer rope and significantly more effort - no chance.

In reply to shark:

Further to an email from Paul Mitchell it seems what I mean by "bad bolt" wasnt clear. I was not refering to the ethics of placing it in the first place but referring to its condition which is, and has been for at least 30 years, appalling. Although surprisingly it can take bodyweight it isn't something you would want to lob on.

The bolt is described as the first bolt placed for free climbing purposes in Derbyshire by Steve Bancroft - presumably hence the name, Lyme Cryme.

BETA ALERT.

The bolt is awkward to clip as it is offline up to the left and can also be backed up with a cam in a pocket just below although doing so is quite strenuous. In fact clipping the bolt and placing the cam is far harder than the short move up right which takes you straightfowardly on positive holds to the ledge below the bulge and big gear. So in short it is a rubbish bolt with an interesting history in the wrong place. But all of this is part and parcel of the character of the route and what makes it so memerable.

In reply to paul mitchell:


Why not replace the old pegs with new pegs ? why are bolts now needed ?

In reply to Sean Toms:


The (withdrawn) proposal was:

• Where pegs currently exist, they will be examined and if necessary & possible, replaced.
• Where bolts currently exist, they will be examined and if necessary, replaced.
• Where threads currently exist, they will be examined and if necessary, replaced.
Where a peg exists, but is impossible to replace, the following options will be considered:
.
1. Remove the peg and do nothing more because there’s a good gear placement or removal doesn’t significantly affect the grade of the route.
2. Replace the peg with a bolt.

In reply to Sean Toms:

Pegs are not designed as permanent protection. They will corrode much quicker than a well specced bolt, leaving the same problem/mess in a few years time. Whacking something with a hammer is unpredictable, drilling is more predictable, and with re-usable bolt systems available now are sustainable.

The argument should be about having some fixed protection or non, pegs shouldn't come in to it.

In reply to Papillon:
>

This is where I disagree.

Imagine halfway up one of Mark Radtke's E5's in Goredale with the pump building up and staring at a peg and wondering how good it is. Or in huntsman's leap with a Pat Littlejohn peg to aim for - Surely I'm not the only one who gets a buzz from stuff like this.

E

In reply to Enty:

>"Surely I'm not the only one who gets a buzz from stuff like this."

Back in 'nam we had this game we played with a revolver and one bullet. Want to play?

In reply to JLS:

Ah well if you're a sport climber

E

In reply to Enty:

Yes and no. No where the difficulty of a route genuinely rests on the state of fixed gear. But where you clip a peg that's dodgy but there is good gear below you, yes, that's a buzz and can add character to a trad route.

In reply to Enty:


I certainly wouldn't get a buzz if I arrived at a sh!te peg and the route was graded E5 for having a good peg as the only available gear. I realise that grades are only a guide but the difference between an E5 with a good peg verses a route formerly graded E5 with a now rotten peg could be vast.

I guess the options would be do nothing and up the grade, putting the route beyond the reach of some would be ascensionists. Which could also lead to the route becoming dirty and vegetated. Or replace the fixed gear and keep the route at its previous grade.

If a like for like replacement cannot be made then further considerations may be necessary. I don't think anyone is advocating the replacement of every peg with a bolt, only that the placing of a bolt should not be totally ruled out in an attempt to preserve a route.

In reply to Marcus Buckley:


With the appropriate down grading, obviously.

In reply to GrahamD:

No. They can be placed really badly, you know, to reflect the state of the peg they replce.

In reply to GrahamD:

I've clipped pegs that have been a lot more trustworthy than some of the bolts on Peak limestone.

In reply to Marcus Buckley:


Yes, I can think of a few on Cheedale's Cornice not far from the stepping stones... REALLY can't think who placed them...!

In reply to jon:

It is always quicker and easier to clip a bolt than to asses a peg and, if required, to tie it off. You know in advance a bolt is clip and go. It will always make things easier

In reply to GrahamD:

That only applies afor a length of time though, until the peg is obviously shite and that knowledge is out in the open. After banging in (assuming they don't enlarge a crack withing the rock knock some off), these pegs should be ok for a while, the first freeze/thaw might unseat them, but it's when they start to corrode the danger becomes more obvious. These peg routes will always be in a state of flux. I can appreciate Enty's sentiment but to recreate that snap shot of history requires some artificial input of uncertainty.... which all gets a bit silly. That's why I say leave it clean or put a bolt in.

In reply to GrahamD:

>

Jeez, it was a light hearted reply, not a challenge to you to try to prove me wrong. And if you only knew (which I suspect you don't) the bolts to which I'm referring you couldn't be more wrong. And if you knew who'd placed them, then you'd realise the delicious irony of it.

In reply to jon:


Ah well, the wonders of internet 'communiction'.

In reply to jon:
And if you knew who'd placed them, then you'd realise the delicious irony of it.

Stop being mischievous jon...I wonder if I'm thinking of the same person???

In reply to Goucho:

Ha, you'll have to be more specific than that!

Wow, lively debate over a crag losing popularity! It is good to see so much debate even heated. I wonder if within the ethical debate the simpler aspects of the proposal should have been carried. I think the replacement of old a tired threads is a very sane and valid contribution to the crag as a whole.

I personally feel the replacement of existing pegs with a new peg which was in my experience done on an adhoc basis out of consideration for the climb and other climbers in the 70's, is actually not controversial.

The further debate about irreplaceable pegs could be left for either upgrading like the scary 2nd pitch of Bitter Oasis (long way from Stony I know)Or true route by route debate as to the best course of action. Like the thoughts on Kellog that were voiced. It is easy to find the disagreements in life, perhaps we can start where simple changes are not a controversial step? (Andy Edgar)

In reply to jon: I was thinking that the initial 'G' might figure?

In reply to Goucho:

No.

In reply to jon: In that case I'm only left with a 'K', or an 'M' and if neither of them are right, then I'll get me coat

In reply to jon:

Ouch, that's gotta hurt!!!

In reply to Graham Hoey:

No, not me Graham.

In reply to Si dH:

Agreed.

But pegs, new or old, are always a lottery. Generally the only person who really knows if the peg is any good is the person who placed it and he/she is the therefore the only person able to know the risk they are taking. The rest of us are just busking it. The idea that a skillful climber can 'inspect' an in situ peg and using skill and experience make a worthwhile judgement is bollo*ks - as anyone with experience of removing/replacing pegs can attest. 'Rotten' pegs sometimes turn out to be stubbornly solid and 'bomber' pegs can fall out with the tap of a hammer

Climbers realise that dodgy pegs represent a random and unknowable chance of serious injury and most consider that this detracts from the quality and appeal of a climb. Consequently those climbs relying on such pro often fall into disuse. If they were originally good routes this is a loss to us all.

Personally, I would remove all old pegs and if necessary, re-grade the climb. However, if a majority of climbers would prefer the route to be still climbable at the original grade, then I can't see why a bolt should not be used. In most cases this merely provides the rest of us with the same level of comfort as the first ascentionist enjoyed.

It strikes me as a bit rich for people who did routes that were probably safe at the time, to now expect others to 'man up' to a route that has become potentially dangerous - particularly when they were not bold enough to climb the line without a peg in the first place.

In reply to paul mitchell:

2 things I'd be interested to know:

1. Which classic routes are now avoided and have fallen into disuse because "it has a dodgy looking peg"

2. Which classic routes will have an increase in grade putting them out of reach of regular average climbers if existing pegs rot away or break. (sort of from HVS, E1 and E2 up to E4, 5 & 6.

E

In reply to colin struthers:
>
Because a bolt will actually lower the grade. You said yourself that a peg is not a reliable form of protection, needing skill on the part of the climber to asses and to tie off if needed. A bolt is reliable clip and go.

In reply to Enty:


Eroica is the most obvious (non Stoney) answer. It leads to a more sustainable situation like this, though and why Pearson's efforts on Walk of Life were so laudable.

In reply to GrahamD:
Because a bolt will actually lower the grade. You said yourself that a peg is not a reliable form of protection, needing skill on the part of the climber to asses and to tie off if needed. A bolt is reliable clip and go.

So would you be in favour of a badly placed bolt?

In reply to Reach>Talent:


What do you reckon ?

I guess a lot of pro bolters forget that bolts aren't maintenance free and will have a life span like a peg will, The difference is that very few people expect a peg to be maintained whereas people will expect (rightly or wrongly) that bolts are being maintained by somebody.

In reply to GrahamD:

So, let's get this right Graham... from the comfort of your wheelchair you'd feel really smug in knowing that you'd clipped a crap 20 year old peg and not a bolt?

In reply to colin struthers:


How often is this actually the case? The vast majority of routes have plenty of gear as well as rotten old pegs.


I don't think this thread shows that at all. You may agree with Si, but I don't conclude from that that 'most climbers consider...'.


Are they? Which routes? Stoney is not as popular as it was, but personally I doubt that that has anything to do with the fixed gear, because it's so rarely crucial. It's to do with Peak limestone, and its limited appeal because of what it's like!


And it changes the character of the routes from how they've been climbed for the last 20 years or so. I think this thread shows that there isn't agreement at all that everyone wants their dodgy-peg-ridden trad routes sanitised.

We don't face a problem of accidents happening because of dodgy pegs, as far as I'm aware anyway. I like the additional 'great, a crap old peg' gear that appears over trad routes (although I think some have too much e.g. Scoop Wall), it can bring an extra bit of confidence when things are tough. And the only time I've taken a fall on them, they've held. I love'em.

In reply to colin struthers:



Totally agree, well expressed.

In reply to GrahamD:

He said first ascencionist.... if it was placed competently a peg should be bomber when first placed and for early repeaters. The acceptable 'uncertainty' will only ever be for a time window, and will not start straight after the peg is placed.

As for your later point about bolts not being maintanaince free, no they will not last forever but they will last a damn site longer than a peg as they are designed for the job which a peg is not. They can aslo be replaced in predictable and sustainable fashion which a peg cannot.

There are no pro-bolters on here, just people who want the debate distilled to 2 sensible options, no gear or bolt, not the peg fudge.

Well maybe, maybe not. It might be worth considering why some (many?) old pegs ARE present on Peak limestone routes. Often it's because they are old artificial routes. The pegs were used for aid and not to protect a free climb and as such probably weren't that brilliant back in the heyday of aid climbing - the 60s and 70s. They were never intended to protect hard free moves. Modern sophisticated protection devices didn't exist - this is why when this subject comes up you'll often get the ill-informed indignant comments like 'TOTALLY unnecessary peg right next to a perfect small wire placement... ' Where peg placements didn't exist on these aid routes you'd often find bolts - Raventor and Malham for instance had loads - but they weren't what we understand bolts to be nowadays. I can remember some in Cheedale and on Raventor that were literally not much more than picture hooks with a bit of thin rusty bent metal as a hanger. Often when these routes first went free they were climbed using this old crap for protection.

Posturing and manning up arguments aside, is it such a great idea to maintain these relics? Well, of course it's not. But equally is it a good idea to remove them without replacing them - like for like or when all else fails, a bolt? OK the climber will know that the old peg is no longer there and can make the call him/herself whether to go on the route, but in general these routes will probably fall into abandon, which would be a great shame. I'll never understand why risking death or certain serious injury is considered so clever, even essential by some - neatly summed up by Ian Mcnaugh-Davis years ago 'Climbing is about dying. If you're not prepared to die, then you shouldn't go climbing.' Bollocks.

And this is why the knee-jerk reaction against bolts is just plain silly and why a case by case approach is necessary.

In reply to paul mitchell:

Another example of a good route that is compromised by a peg placement would be Walk Under Ladders, an E4 at Gouther Crag, Swindale. The route climbs a hanging slab above a 70' void and, as I remember it, protection for the first hard moves depends entirely on an aging knifeblade.

I inspected this on ab a few years ago and concluded that if I fell and the peg failed then I was almost certainly dead. The peg looked reasonable but since I had no way of knowing how long the knifeblade was, how deep it sat in the crack or whether it had rotted internally I decided that, for me, the route just wasn't worth the risk.

The first ascentionist might well have felt very confident in that peg and the given grade of E4 may well have been right. However, for someone approaching the line many years later the true grade would have been higher in my opinion.

I climbed at Gouther again last year and Walk Under Ladders looked like it hadn't been climbed for years. I wasn't surprised.

This is precisely the sort of route that we have now pretty much lost. It might see traffic again if the pegs were removed and it was given maybe E6, or if a bolt was substituted for the peg - in which case I think it would probably still merit E4.

A previous poster had it right - these are the true choices we have with a route like this and I agree that reverting to what he described as the peg'fudge' is a pretty poor option by comparison.

In reply to jon:


It's not about risking death being clever, it's about avoiding risk by being clever

Either way, I've certainly never been prepared to die. If I thought I had a significant chance of dying from climbing I'd take up ping pong instead. Doesn't mean I'm not prepared to face considerable danger though - just prefer to do so on my terms. Maybe Mac's quote would be better as: Climbing is about danger. If you're not prepared to be in danger then you should't go climbing. - which is then only partially bollocks.

In reply to john arran:

OK, but back to Stoney. I feel it'd be a crying shame if say some previously good and popular E2 became an E5 overnight due to its peg(s) being removed and not replaced. Converting a route into an E2 for an E5 leader (and therefore an E5 for an E2 leader) isn't doing anything for either climber.

In reply to Papillon:
no they will not last forever but they will last a damn site longer than a peg as they are designed for the job which a peg is not.

I know that most forms of bolt were originally designed for use in the construction industry.
What exactly was the job that pitons were designed for?

In reply to Andy Say: Pitons were designed as temporary protection, same as nuts and cams.

Climbig specific fixed protection, bolts or staples, are designed as fixed protection on rock.

In reply to paul mitchell: I've not read all the posts, but imo Stoney is a trad crag therefore leave it as such. by replacing the pegs with bolts i assume the routes would be in the F6b and upward grade so for those that can do that should just drive a bit down the road to Raven tor or other similar crags.

In reply to jon:

But there are no E2s that I know of at Stoney that depend on pegs. Scoop Wall has plenty of other gear, that one on Windhover etc is handy but would hardly make it E5 if it goes (why remove it, it's handy), Dies Irae has gear, etc etc. I don't see any point in changing these routes.

I think this is a very valid discussion regarding routes like Eroica where an old peg makes a big difference. There are a handful of these routes in the country and none of them are at Stoney AFAIK.

In reply to Paul Hy:
I think you should have read the rest of the posts. Replacing one peg halfway up a route with a bolt - would not make a route into a sport route.

I've observed this whole debate and not commented on it at all. I climb at stoney a lot - and have only just recently moved back into Sheffield from down the road - and still frequent it a lot.

I'm waiting for the person - who is going to take action and actually record every route with a peg in it - assess it's condition and the history of the route - to then decide on a case by case basis what should be done with each one individually.

Any volunteers? Is there a communal resource for this - ie. the PBF blog?
I'd be willing to submit my findings with regards to each route I climb there and the state of the pegs/fixed gear.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


It was a hypothetical E2 > E5 Jon, the principle however remains the same. I agree, the routes you mention don't need anything doing to them, so leave them.

In reply to jon:


No, you haven't got it right. I assess whether to take on the route depending on the nature of protection available and my ability. If that means judgeing the condition of pegs etc and whether they are crucial for me its my choice. I DO NOT ask for a route to be reduced to fit my capability.

In reply to Papillon:


You missed out the most obvious and to my mind most sensible pragmatic option: Leave the routes as they are and have been for years. Add no new pegs and in time the old pegs will disapear.

In reply to Papillon:


I've read any number of first ascent accounts which went along the lines of tied off a dodgy blade etc. Placements are only as good as the rock allows them to be.

In reply to GrahamD:

That is the 'no gear' option I referred to!

In reply to GrahamD:


Of course it's your choice. How about if you make the wrong call when you assess the peg? I abseiled down one of Gary's 'River' routes on the Cornice one day to clean the moss off it. While doing this I looked at the peg - a seemingly bomber lost arrow type thing driven straight down into a crack behind a substantial flake. It came out in my hands. It had been sawn down and was less than an inch long. They are deceptive things, pegs. Now, I don't (well OK, I didn't) mind running it out on gear that I've placed myself, but fixed gear should either be good, or at least be a known quantity. Saying that you can make that judgement about a peg as you are climbing is frankly wishful thinking. Of course you probably think my use of 'wheelchair' was ott hypothetical scaremongering nonsense... but what if it wasn't? I think you'd be more than a bit disappointed.

In reply to GrahamD:

I know, but I don't think that is what is being discusse here. These are good placements (put in by aid climbers or the FA on abseil) which people regarded as fixed. I'm replying to the suggestion of replacing pegs. If they were replaced it would certainly bdone on abseil.

In reply to jon:

Fixed gear of this kind can also just be a nice reminder of history, I particularly liked the wooden chocks (I'd hope they're still there) in Flakes when I climbed it. Didn't use them obviously but then they weren't needed, like most of the pegs you see around.

If you make the wrong choice it's your fault, and these things happen. If I choose trust a peg and it rips I'd have no one to blame but myself. I can't say that I can honestly judge whether a peg is bomber or not for sure but I do choose to make the choice to climb the route and rely on the peg to save me.

Papillon - two wrongs don't make a right, just because the FA put in a peg doesn't mean its a good idea to follow him (not that I'd say never do it).

In reply to thomasadixon:

I agree! See my post at 10:14.

In reply to thomasadixon:


Yes and I was agreeing, to a degree, with Graham when I said 'of course it's your choice', but somewhere along the line one's life or quality of life should come before some strange climbing ethic. Emotive? Well look somewhere above where Mikeyratty says this:

In reply to jon: I think possibly those of us of a certain generation, need to accept that these pegs were probably not as dodgy 25 years ago as they might well be now.

Having said that, I would never trust an in-situ peg to be a guaranteed stopper, and if it's the only gear, then I make the decision to either take the risk, or back off. I remember doing Eroica in around 79', and there was no way I considered the pegs to be particularly solid, but that was the nature of the route. I think there is a bit of a mindset these days that fixed gear should be 'bomber'.

I agree that reviewing the possible replacement of certain old in-situ pegs on a case by case basis, and replacing with bolts if that's the only viable option, is probably the most sensible approach, as long as it doesn't set a precedent for the those less educated in the history of those routes, to start adding even more.

Trad limestone is a pretty unique experience, and as I've said before, it's not as if there is a shortage of bolt protected limestone sport routes.

Stoney has always had a bit of a 'knarly' character, which in my view should be maintained.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKC and UKH:

Indeed, and a good write up from Phil. Is the climber OK now?

In my opinion, if climbers want Stoney to be something more than a museum of past glories, a top roping venue and a bouldering area, something radical needs to be done.

Same goes for Chee Tor.

As regards pegs: I can't see anyone having the energy to check and replace them every few years. I mean look at the Peak Bolt Fund, with all due respect they haven't been that active unless you count the harder routes.

Some in the UK are of the opinion that Trad Climbing is dying at some crags and areas: guidebook sales are down in North Wales and the Lakes, numbers staying at the CC hut in Llanberis are down as is foot traffic at some climbing shops in Wales and the Lakes.

Stanage is popular, but that isn't proper trad climbing, and the second most popular climbing area in the UK is the sport climbs of Portland.

Bold and innovative moves need to be made to keep trad alive in the UK before we become a climbing nation of indoor climbers who only climb outside in Spain and France.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKC and UKH:

A friend was in Millstone and saw the team stick-clip the peg and set of up London Wall. He wondered about suggesting the needed to place some back-up gear - but assumed that being on an E5 they must have some idea what they were up to!


Chris

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKC and UKH:

I'm not sure where the idea of empty limestone crags come from but I don't think it is the case.. They are never going to be as busy as Stanage but I wouldn't expect them to be - and would prefer them not to be!

Chee Tor has probably been fairly quite this year due to the weather.. Last year and the year before that it has been very popular.

High tor usually has a hand full of teams on it over a weekend and usually someone midweek evening in summer. Same for Beeston Tor.

Dovedale is normally fairly quiet, but it is very spread out so maybe others have been there and I've not noticed.

Stoney gets a fair bit of traffic on the right days. Usually after rain, or days with a marginal forecast.

Wildcat is popular weekends and evenings.

Not been to Aldery for a couple of years but I gather that is busy since the work the BMC volunteers have done there.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKC and UKH:

IME there's always climbers at Stoney, I've never had the crag to myself. I don't see many top-topers there at all (I've been the only one) just a modest flow of people on the classic routes.

Chee Tor is problematic. I think it's the best limestone crag in the Peak, but it is always filthy, what with the deluge of debris from the jungle above. And last summer it was never going to come into good nick at all, but I just think we need a dry summer and its devotees will be back. I'd like to see more traffic there, but I'm not sure what could be done to encourage that apart from an article on here or in the magazines saying what a great place to climb safe, technical E-grade pitches it is.


Sounds a bit hysterical tbh. There are hundreds of climbers in N Wales, there will always be queues in the Pass, Gogarth gets bags of traffic as does Tremadog of course. The Lakes is certainly quiet and some of the minor crags may be falling into disuse which is possibly a shame. But nothing's going to happen to Gimmer, Scafell, Pavey etc.

I don't think anything radical needs to be done to keep trad climbing alive. Every time I go climbing, I visit great crags with plenty of enthusiastic, experienced climbers of every age, mainly people who are younger and better than me.

In reply to Jon Stewart:


That's not what Mick said. He said:

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKC and UKH:
That sounds like rather a different argument, though.

There's arguably a case that Something Needs To Be Done to help the huge numbers of new climbers who've got into the sport through indoor walls to get sensible information about trad and dispel some of the myths - that you'll need a second mortgage to get a basic rack, unless you've got balls of steel you'll die on your first diff, you need to go on a two week residential course at Plas Y Brenin before you're even safe to walk-in to a trad crag, the only sensible way to go outdoors for an indoor climber is to start doing sport (I'm sure I've occasionally read pro-bolting comments on here along the lines of "but how are newbies going to learn to climb outdoors if they don't have a sport crag nearby...")

But that seems kind of tangential to what if any fixed gear is appropriate to certain routes on particular crags... there's plenty of trad out there that doesn't involve dodgy pegs for people to get involved with if they're interested...

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKC and UKH:

The current state of the economy, and the general decline in the traditional retail sector, plus the cost of petrol, could possibly be having a more tangible impact on certain climbing areas, than a decline in trad climbing itself.

Also, the trend of people coming to climbing via indoor walls, is likely to create a natural progression to sport routes outdoor, as opposed to trad.

In reply to Goucho: 'The current state of the economy, and the general decline in the traditional retail sector, plus the cost of petrol, could possibly be having a more tangible impact on certain climbing areas, than a decline in trad climbing itself'

British climbing was at its height during the recession of the 1980s, before Thatcher changed the dole rules so that people could not claim the dole for 6 months if they gave up a job voluntarily. An economic recession should be an opportunity for climbers to advance the state of the art.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKC and UKH:


It already is a lot more than that, as is Chee Tor. Its a great trad climbing venue which probably doesn't need any more traffic than it currently gets.

In reply to paul mitchell:

On the 24h geological clock humans have been knocking around for less than a minute and a half - climbing for pleasure probably a millisecond.
In 25 years time E4 will be the new E2 and E6 the new E4 so what a great legacy to leave some hard routes for future generations.
Stoney will still be there - who knows what's going to happen in 50 or 100 years.
Are we so bothered about half a dozen routes becoming too hard for the current population that we have do start drilling at predominantly trad crags?

E

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKC and UKH:
Have you been to Stoney recently? Whenever I go there there are other teams about and they are normally climbing trad routes. Stoney is fine as it is.


Chee Tor is popular when it is dry, especially since the tunnels have been re-opened.


I assume you are being deliberately provocative.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKC and UKH: Having read your post again I now realise you are trolling.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

Yes, it's my local crag.

In reply to John2:


Not if they have to work in Poundland for zero wage.

And one might argue about there being a 'golden age' in the 80's? There was some good stuff done in the 50's. And most of the classic routes on Stoney were pre-80's.

In reply to Martin Haworth:

No. Generating traffic is Mick's job; not 'trolling'.

In reply to Andy Say: 'Not if they have to work in Poundland for zero wage'

That's an astonishingly unintelligent thing to say. As I said, it used to be possible for those who wanted to to claim the dole without having to work.

In reply to Kemics:

Utter shite! typical UKC people talking about stuff they know nothing about.

In reply to John2:

I may, perhaps, have been more cryptic than was wise. What I was trying to suggest was that the benefit world of the 80's that allowed quite a few of my friends to doss almost permanently on Windy Ledge (although the softer elements used the bus shelter; and the chosen few were allowed by Peggy to kip in the barn behind the Moon) is no longer in place. That was nearly 40 years ago. We now inhabit a world that is antipathetic to that sort of 'scrounging' and seeks to force unpaid work on those with no current employment.

I am hurt that you consider my contribution unintelligent.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKC and UKH:

I agree that the future of trad is now a big issue - patterns of climbing are changing and much of our best rock is sadly falling into disuse and becoming overgrown.

This is obvious to anyone who has been around for a while and who compares the state of the routes on any major mountain crag with how they were 20 years ago.

Gogarth is cited by somebody on this thread as a major adventure crag that is still hugely popular - but that's just not true. The latest A55 sport climbing guide has massively outsold the recent Gogarth North guide!

Even on the grit the numbers climbing roped routes is declining. Last year I climbed Hunky Dory at the Roaches fairly late in the Summer. This is widely regarded as a truly classic E3 and yet the lower crack was choked with ferms and I was shocked at the thought that it probably hadn't been climbed for months.

It's fairly obvious that the number of people now coming into the sport through indoor walls has a lot to do with the fact that young climbers generally prefer sport routes and bouldering when they first venture outdoors. But I don't agree that this generation of climbers wouldn't appreciate our broader climbing heritage if they got the encouragement to get stuck into trad. I'm delighted that the BMC now seems to be taking this on with the appointment of 2 new staff who will address precisely these sort of issues.

Of course this whole discourse is a bit removed from the original point about replacing old pegs - except perhaps that young climbers may not be thrilled at the thought of joining a scene which is full of old gits who want them to take silly risks by relying piss poor bits of decaying metal that they wouldn't dream of using themselves.

Even so maybe we do need a new thread to cover these broader issues. Anyone for a thread entitled "Trad climbing, dying on its arse?"

In reply to Andy Say:

The term used at the time - and for which you are groping, Andy - is Government Sponsored Climbers.

In reply to colin struthers:


A lighthearted or tongue in cheek comment perhaps Colin, but I think you have hit the nail square on the head there.

In reply to colin struthers:


If the major mountain crags were so much busier 20 years ago I'm glad the traffic has calmed down a bit. I only go up on Scafell on a heatwave weekend, and when I do, the classic routes up to E3 are all getting climbed continuously. By the end of the weekend you've met the 10 or so climbers on the crag and swapped stories. There is absolutely no problem with lack of traffic - it's wet 98% of the time and when its not, people climb the routes.


A lot of people buying the sport guide sheds no light whatsoever on the number of people climbing at Gogarth. I last went on a good weekend in October, and on the saturday there were climbers on:

- Scavenger
- Assassin
- Big Groove Direct
- Stimulator
- Rat Race
- Positron

Plus obviously stuff on Upper Tier and presumably all around the other crags. I have always avoided Wen Zawn because it's full of people. Yellow Wall always has climbers on The Moon, The Sind and Creeping Lemma was well-chalked when I climbed it. There are loads and loads of people climbing at Gogarth. Go down there and have a look - but maybe when it's a bit warmer!


That's because it rained all summer.



Haha! Brilliant!


I'll answer that one: don't be daft.

In reply to all who want to place protection for me :

On this occasion i will have to decline your offer.

If the BMC want to make the crags a bit more popular, then perhaps they should produce the definitive guide book.

In reply to colin struthers:

+ 1

In reply to Brian Rodgers:

I didn't notice the BMC, as such, wanting more popularity; more some activists on some committees. In any case The BMC in guidebook production is in the arms of it's volunteer members. I was concerned once and did stuff rather than being an armchair critic. I've seen 'Frank' around a lot as well on crag meets, clear-ups etc, he even took an unpaid leave from the BMC for a period to help finish OTM a bit more quickly. Part of the problem with Peak Limestone is the more obscure stuff needs hard and sometimes dangerous work with cleaning, loose rock etc.

Time can changes limestone climbs much more so than on grit and some people I speak to are working off long memories. I climbed a pleasant severe on the side of Ossam's crag 20 odd years ago and repeated it about 4 years back. In the meantime the midway tree belay had rotted to dust and there wasn't a single fully solid hold on the whole route. I welcomed grasping the brambles at the time as I knew then that I wasnt going to die. In contrast the starred VS Cumberbund next door was pretty much unchanged.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

You know Jon, just about everyone I speak to says that trad crags are quieter these days. I have to take their word for it as I haven't climbed in the UK for 23 years. Only six weeks ago I received an email from one of the Pembroke guidebook team on another matter. I was shocked when I read:


I really thought Pembroke would be at its most popular, but no. Didn't Tremadog get a complete makeover in recent years due to nature taking over where previously climbers kept it bramble free?

So, I think seeing another climber or two at a crag doesn't really tell me that it's busy - compared with a few years back. Now of course in most places this wouldn't really pose a problem. Indeed, where I live I welcome having the crags to myself and tend to avoid weekends and holidays like the plague. But in the UK with its damp, plant-growth-encouraging climate, the crags will suffer if they get neglected. Route maintenance where it's deemed necessary, alongside nice clean solid rock will surely encourage use.

In reply to jon:
Maybe I'm paranoid, but it worries me that for a lot of people, the path of least resistance into climbing in the UK these days is wall -> sport, where it used to be walking -> scrambling -> trad or just mates / club -> trad.

We can debate the relative evils of vegetation and polish and crowding all we like, but it feels like the beginning of a trend that could end up in ten or twenty years with a vast population of sport-only climbers, and they'll probably start asking why they're still being packed into a small number of dingy quarries while there are vast swathes of lovely rock reserved for the five people who still climb trad...

I'm not generally anti-sport, but it's worrying that we might just be sleepwalking in that direction for no good reason, and it's stupid if it could be avoided by just giving people better information or opportunities to see what trad climbing's all about.

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm an armchair critic because i think a definitive guide is needed rather than placing pegs or bolts?
I’m not sure how your logic works there.

I do think that definitive guidebooks are an area where the BMC add real value.
In not creating a new guide for Peak Lime they have been neglectful.
Relying on volunteers is ok if you organise them and make it work, but has that been the case?
I volunteered to work on the BMC Peak Limestone guide when i moved to the area four or five years ago.
I got no response - i followed it up and still got no response.

In reply to Brian Rodgers:

I think you need to take that up with the BMC (email them or come to or email the Peak area meeting and make the point) rather than moaning here. Email me with details if you need any help; my partner (Moff on this site) is the area secretary.

In reply to Ramblin dave: I 'll bet a substantial amount of money that if Stoney was turned into a sport crag, there would be queues as far as the Moon for the routes there.

The fact is, that sport just seems to be more popular than trad nowadays - probably because you can have all the gymnastic and technical fun of climbing, but with hardly any risk to life and limb.

Is this a reflection of the indoor wall mentality, or is it that today's generation are more risk averse?

Or is it, in this x-box, smart phone, instant technology age we live in, that the rewards in sport climbing are more 'immediate' and 'time efficient', and also possibly seen as a bit more sexy and cutting edge than trad?

Just a thought.

In reply to Goucho:

I find single pitch sports climbing boring and mainly do them as a training aid. I've not even led a single route in the Peak area yet despite being a keen regular climber in the area and a guidebook volunteer. I have aided a few bolt lines in the Peak (The Bat most often since it got bolts). However, I often climb and really enjoy trad bolted routes (mainly in the US). There is a big difference between a sports route and a route bolted to replace a rotted peg or to stop you killing yourself if you fall (like some trad slate routes). Most pegs on trad climbs went in for that very reason in the first place (risky moves with no other pro); pegs were not added to make them clip-ups. I'd get just as pissed off with people trying to add (or adding) unnecessary new bolts to trad bolted routes to make them safer as I would for a route with trad gear. Several routes have been sanitised and partly spoilt through this in the US.

In reply to Goucho:

Speaking as a boulder/sport climber - Personally I have no interest in trad, as I don't climb for the danger/risk factor, I climb for the movement, the exercise and to be in beautiful locations. I still get a bit freaked on a sports lead, adding in to the mix some occasional dodgy gear if I moved to trad has zero appeal to me.

It doesn't both me there's more trad rock than sport rock around - there's enough boulders to last a lifetime whilst still getting into the great outdoors.

Whether I'm representative of the "new breed" of wall-based climbers, I don't know...

But with regards to the original topic - replacing one rusty peg halfway up a trad route would make absolutely no difference to me. I'm still not going to climb it.

In reply to Goucho:
I don't know - there are people who've got no interest in trad because they basically just want to push themselves to the limit physically and fall off a lot but don't want the risk of serious injury than you'd get doing that on trad gear. And that's fair enough.

But it seems like there are a lot of people who might potentially get a lot out of trad climbing, but are put off it for stupid reasons, like thinking it's all suicidally dangerous or that there's no accessible way to learn to do it or that you need to get practice climbing sport before you get on to trad or that a starter trad rack is massively more expensive than the stuff you need for sport climbing... and maybe there's more that individual traddies and/or the BMC and/or others could be doing to dispel some of those myths.

Sorry, this is wandering painfully off topic...

In reply to jon:

I'm not saying that's not true, I'm just saying I don't see any problem, except possibly on the lesser Lakes valley crags (which have limited appeal to me personally). Who wants to queue for routes?


It's still really popular though!


I don't know. I think that place would benefit from some blanket napalming - I doubt a few more climbers would do the trick.


I don't think we're losing good routes due to neglect, although we may lose some crap ones. Personally, I have never attempted a no star Peak lime route and doubt I ever will. And Chee Tor could certainly do with more traffic but it's not a problem about fixed gear, it's just fashions in climbing - the other side of the river is heaving when dry, but I'd rather be over on the quiet, grubby, scary side. So much more enriching for the soul.

In reply to Jon Stewart:

ok, so if it's to replace 1 or 2 pegs on a number of routes to make them climbable/safe else they just can't be climbed or just by a few "gods" then i'm all for it.

In reply to paul mitchell: Imagine replacing all the pegs on windhover with bolts, there's about 30!!

In reply to James Oakes:

Really? Last time I did it (a long time ago I know) I think there were three!


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Even three would be too many in 2 metres, Chris - have a look at the UKC database!

In reply to paul mitchell: Why dont you people ask Jack Street and Chris Jackson and others, the People that put the routes up and the pegs in in the 60s I dont think they would like bolts on stoney. Me personaly I saw enough bolts on cerro Torre in 1971 to last me a life time.

In reply to Removed Usercerro: this is Stoney Middleton, not Patagonia....how preposterous of you! We could ask people who put the routes up 50 years ago what they think we should do, but their opinion only carries as much weight as anyone else's. Glad to see this thread is still running even after I've been away for 9 days. My evil plan has worked. Again.

In reply to Frank the Husky:

Hi Martin,

Yup, the thread is still going but it seems to have wandered (in a constructive sort of way) on to a more general discussion of where trad climbing is at and where it might be going.

I think its time to open a new thread so that people who may not have clocked this part of the discussion can join in

See you all shortly on 'Trad climbing, dying on its arse?'