UKC

Went to check what numbers may have done the Traverse last week, just out of interest, and was struck by the number of solo parties; my what a fine hard bunch of mountaineers the UK is turning out!
Closer inspection revealed that all these fine bold folk had actually had a chum along , presumably to take pictures, oh and it seems to tie to on the In Pinn. Uisdean appears to be the only genuine solo recorded.
Just a wee appeal to keep tings real folks.

In reply to Mike Lates:
What if they were solo , but had a drone to take photos and tie on to. Is that still solo?

In reply to Mike Lates:
Uisdean--he Da Man

I was climbing next to him in Coire nan Lochan (the Norries one) not long ago. He and that Canadian guy Rafa were having the day off after the big Meet, so they weren't new-routing, they just cruised nice and leisurely up some VIIish sickfest; while Harpic and I were busy failing on a V variant and downgrading to the Original, III. Slunk home with our tails between our legs

In reply to Mike Lates:

Probably because the UKC logbook system doesn't have an "unroped" category -- which to you and me is not the same as "solo" (= alone).

In reply to Mike Lates:




Who cares what people put?

In reply to jimjimjim:

Might be an idea to leave the mendacious reality-dislocated bragfests to Donald Trump?

In reply to Sophie G.:

Who's this Trump guy?
Must get on and talk with the Cardinal just now.

In reply to veteye:


Solo or unrobed?

In reply to jimjimjim:


I do. Soloing is a totally different head game on something of that scale and far more impressive. In this case the fact that UKC doesn't have an ideal category is probably the reason but the information fundamentally gives a false impression.

In reply to Mike Lates:


I am sure that there is absolutely no deliberate dishonesty, and, to be fair, the entries do (a bit comically) say "....solo with.....", so it is clear what the deal actually is. It is just that a lot of people are genuinely under the misapprehension that "solo" is synonymous with "unroped".

In reply to Robert Durran:


For the vast majority of the time in this country solo effectively means unroped, whether other people are present or not. All the climbers I know understand this... there is no misapprehension.

In reply to Mike Lates:
I agree Mike. Any idea who has the quickest winter traverse solo? I bet Colin T. is up there for one the the quickest.

In reply to Kirriemuir:


But the term has a different meaning in alpine or expedition climbing - there, it really does mean 'by yourself' - which presumably is the point being made here in the context of the Cuillin Ridge in Winter.

In reply to Kirriemuir:


No, that is precisely WHY there is a misapprehension - in the UK most soloing is unroped climbing and most unroped climbing is soloing.

In reply to Robert Durran:


That's definitely the case by and large. Having other people around i.e. friends, definitely lessens the commitment, as does having a rope and/or gear which can be used for resting.

It seems that when Marc-Andre Leclerc was here a couple of weeks ago, he carried a "tagline" (as it was described on FB) so he could bail from his solos if necessary. But then he's coming from an alpine background, where that would be the norm. Ironically, when he attempted to solo Darth Vader, he didn't carry a rope/cord, but he did have friends nearby (one of whom then abbed down to him when he decided to bail from the cave. That did make me smile actually. A few years ago, I considered DV myself. I left it to sit in the back of my mind for the best part of a year, then decided against it as I couldn't be sure of the moves out of the cave).

I don't have a clue about the Cuillin ridge, but I guess even a very pure solo ascent is going to involve a rope (for the abseils?) and prior knowledge? I have to admit though, it's not soloing the route that impresses me as much as Tim and Finlay's traverse. 6 hours is moving!

In reply to Robert Durran:


As far as UKC logbooks are concerned, the two are indeed the same.

In reply to Ben.W:

I think it's now Uisdean Hawthorn.

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


What makes you think that?

In reply to Robert Durran:

Because the only available categories are Boulder, Solo, DWS, Lead, Alt-Leads, Second and Top-Rope. If I do a route unroped and on my own, the only applicable choice is Solo. If I am with a group of others and we all do the route unroped, the only applicable choice is Solo. The only thing that differentiates the two is what appears in the Partners box.

In reply to Patrick Roman:


And of course a rope in no way disqualifies it from being a solo...........

In reply to Robert Durran:

There's no way to differentiate in the logbook. I've done routes moving together unroped and logged them as 'solo'. Logging them as a 'lead' or 'alt lead' would be equally incorrect, given no belays or rope. It's not possible to leave the ascent style blank either when logging a climb so you are forced to choose the least incorrect style. The ascent styles in the logbook seem to me more geared towards rock climbing than to alpine. Really there needs to be options for 'solo', 'unroped', 'solo with back-roping', and 'moving together roped' (for easy glaicer routes without belays).

In reply to Simon Caldwell:


That doesn't mean that "unroped" is synonymous with "solo"; it just means that UKC have failed to provide an option for unroped non-solos.

In reply to Mr. Lee:

Fair enough; I don't log climbs on here so was unaware of that - it explains the misleading logging of these cuillin traverses.


Agree.

In reply to Robert Durran:


Isn't that what I said? It's what I meant anyway

In reply to Kirriemuir:

I haven't read this whole thread, only skimmed it, so i am in danger of repeating what others have said. However...

There is a HUGE difference in soloing on your own and soloing a route next to another person. This second aspect of soloing is known as "simul - solo".
I have simul soloed heaps of alpine routes, including new alpine grand course routes in winter in the dephs of NZ where rescue really isn't an option. This was and is common practice.
However, to solo completely on your own and be unsupported is quite different. There is an amazing person, a Kiwi called Guy McKinnon, (google him, it will be time well spent) who solos cutting edge alpine routes in deep wilderness settings (unlike euro alp settings) completely on his own. This is a whole different game. I have sampled this fruit and it sits very differently in ones stomach. The psychology of it is totally on a higher level.
To say that the two are the same game is like saying petting a domestic tabby cat and stroking a sleeping tiger are the same. Yes, they are both cats, but...
James e

In reply to Mr. Lee:


It is possible to leave the style of ascent blank, for example see the entries people have left on this route I did a few weekends ago. Most are 'solo' but some are just left without any style...
Y Gribin (Winter) (II)

In reply to Mike Lates:

what a lot of kerfuffle.

I soloed Parsley Fern Gully last weekend. My mate was somewhere around and about 30 minutes ahead was another pair. There might have been someone behind as well for all I know.

If I fall off I still whizz down quite fast and possibly take out someone else. How on earth does the presence of other climbers make this anything other than a Grade 1 solo?

In reply to Babika:


Solo means "alone" not "unroped", so deciding whether or not to categorise an ascent as "solo" is dependent on the extent of the moral and physical support of other people rather than on whether you are roped up. Obviously there will be grey areas, but that does not change the basic principle.

I am not in position to pass comment on your ascent of Parsley Fern Gully, but I do know that climbing unroped on a big alpine route (or probably the Cuillin Ridge) alongside your mate with a rope and rack in the sack in case things get trickier than anticipated is a very, very different undertaking to committing to the route on your own.

In reply to Mike Lates:

I feel this is the right time to confess. I made a full solo winter ridge traverse in early 1979. In those days it was accepted practice to wear cotton under garments, which now I come to think of it became my over garments only. Of course things have moved on at a pace since then, I do remember filming myself at the TD Gap using an old box camera tied to a rather large kite. The only pictures I managed to take were of me looking very frightened hanging onto the kite rope for grim death. An early form of a "selfie" I have since been told. Well done to all these young bucks who continue to amaze me with their mountaineering skills, stay safe and wrap up warm I wish I had as I am reminded every time I sit down cotton kills or at least chills.

In reply to Kirriemuir:

What? Solo means on your own. It's generally assumed to be "unroped" as we don't aid solo in the U.K. Taking a rope on a solo of the Cullin doesn't invalidate a solo traverse, doing it with a friend does, regardless of whether you tie on at some point or not.

In reply to Robert Durran:

What if your mate forgets the rope, precipitating an argument which causes you to spend the day not speaking to each other and climbing fifty metres apart? We've all been there.

In reply to Andy Moles:

Annoyingly I only seem able to like this comment once. Bah.
Unroped Sulk.

The winter traverse is undoubtedly the finest mountaineering expedition in the UK. To this day it remains possibly my most memorable outing in the mountains ever, anywhere. One day ascents are impressive, but spending a night on the ridge is integral to the experience, at least for a first traverse I think. Seeing the sun rise over the mainland from the ridge, after enduring nearly 17 hours of midwinter darkness, is very special indeed.

In reply to Andy Moles:


As I said, there are always grey areas......... though, in this case, unless the argument was so bad that your mate would have refused to help you out if a crampon had fallen off, I'd say it definitely wasn't a solo.

In reply to bigbobbyking:


Pretty sure this never used to be possible. I've updated my logbook entries anyway.

In reply to Mike Lates:

I have always taken 'solo' to mean 'unroped'. I often 'solo' easy climbs in winter with others as part of a chilled winter day and don't have an issue with logging them as solo. Do you think 'solo' should mean 'alone and unroped' then?

In reply to Somerset swede basher:

Use your judgement? A "solo" of the Cullin Ridge totally on your own but with a rope to ab etc is a solo, an unroped traverse of the ridge with your mate is not.

In reply to Mike Lates:

I am particularly concerned I might have fallen foul of your pronouncement. Could you advise what I should log a winter ascent of Wilderness East Gully in Chew Valley as did it unroped with friends but it is a sub-alpine/non-mountaineering climb so I would think should fall into the category of solo in the UK rock climbing sense?

In reply to Removed User:


Just ask yourself whether the presence of others was of significant physical or psychological support.

In reply to galpinos:

I'm with you galpinus on both your postings. Check it out in any good dictionary. The word "solo", whether it's used as a noun, adjective, adverb, or a verb means to do something by yourself. It is something done by one person, alone and unaccompanied. If somebody is with you, roped, unroped, or standing on his head, you ain't solo! And it doesn't matter what you apply it to, a solo flight, going solo in an aircraft, solo on a motorcycle etc,etc.
However if UK convention in the climbing world is taken as meaning " unroped" as Somerset swede basher says and everybody accepts it at that does it matter? And how important is it anyway? Each person who describes what he/she did will know what they mean and the circumstances in which it was recorded. If it's an ego trip thing then that's another matter altogether.

In reply to Robert Durran:

I suppose it depends what you mean by 'presence of others' and also the medium?

I've soloed routes on crags with no one around, and I've also soloed routes on the same crags when there have been plenty of others around and on ajoining routes - are only the former legitimate solo's?

You could argue yes, because whilst if you fall, it doesn't make any difference, the presence of others could be useful if you decide you need to bail and could therefore be rescued by them.

I think it changes when it comes to winter and alpine climbing. For me, this is where the big psychological factors come into play because of the increased objective dangers, often outside of our control, such as weather, avalanche, seracs, unstable terrain etc.

This is where there's a huge difference between climbing a route alone or with someone else - whether you're roped up or not.

So, whilst I'd happily claim a solo of Left Wall even if there were 6 other people soloing it at the same time, and the cast of Ben Hur on all the ajoining routes, I would only claim a winter/alpine solo if I was 'alone' on the route.

All of which means, I'm probably just as confused as others as to what the term solo really means when applied to the full range of climbing activity.

In reply to Goucho:


No it doesn't, it means you understand that the term can mean different things depending on the context.

Never really come across this distinction myself, although it obviously makes sense that having someone above you that might be able to throw you a rope changes the experience a lot. I've also soloed routes with people in the vicinity and felt very put off by it so always preferred to be alone when soloing so it's definitely not totally clear cut.

In reply to Mike Lates:

I often refer to soloing alone as 'solo soloing'.

Maybe 'solo solo' could be added to the logbooks