UKC

Right then, an encouraging first game beckons - what’s going to happen? Who will win? Where are you watching? What have the refs been briefed to watch closely? 

Predictions, grievances, celebrations - send them here…

Ireland, France or New Zealand, nothing like sitting on the fence....

Edit, that’s for the tournament winner. 

good first half so far for the opener. France relying on along kicking game, the ABs making some costly errors. Gonna be a good 2nd 40!

Both sides really hitting their tech excellence. That Moanga tackle was something else. 
The sustained pressure from France, calculated risks, basics done right continually, glimpses of DuPont being DuPont. After a dull opening ceremony this is supreme from France. 

It's not fair!!!!

Both teams playing a totally different game to England

The rugby was typical of a first game in a major tournament - lots of nervousness and mistakes, possibly made worse by the high temperatures.
France looking good, but the score differential perhaps hides New Zealand's potential.
What happened with the anthems?  Not sure if my TV coverage was somehow out of synch, but they were absolutely awful.
The ITV coverage is absolutely dire, no passion and no real attempt to engage with the game that is about to start.  Instead, they insisted on boring in-depth studio analysis from the likes of Jonny 'Jumpers for Goalposts' Wilkinson.
Also, far too many adverts and early indications are that there is going to be an England bias to all of their coverage. 
 

Another thing, the backdrop to the weird lectern thing is obviously false. 
Are they actually in France?

Its desperately dire coverage but there we are. 
Weird seeing Paolo Odogwu in an Italy shirt, I haven’t got used to that. Namibia just weren’t fit enough despite early promise of well drilled attacking pods and lines. 
Ireland’s plan of running everything from their 22 went awry at first, but they look strong and composed. 

Amazed you seem to be writing off South Africa.

Edit: That’s France, Ireland, New Zealand and South Africa...... 

Right, so, red card, hmm, not the ideal start for England....

I tuned in 15 mins before the start of the France v NZ game. At no point did the team lineups  appear on screen, I had to go online to check. Tuned in tonight 15 mins before the start of England's game, no team lineups shown at all.  ITV really are rubbish at rugby presentation.

France South Africa final for me. Hoping Scotland go well even though I'm technically English 

OK, unusual tactics to play almost the entire game with only 14, but it worked. 

What a dominant defensive performance that was from England. Dan Cole dominated his man throughout, great energy and timing from the likes of Earls and Tuilagi, very encouraging all round. 
Curry though let his heart manage that tackle. I still think it was borderline rugby incident but the law is the law! I hope Wales ( edit and Scotland) come through with confidence too. 

Ford has obviously nudged to the top of the selection pecking order. He outscored Johnny Sexton, who scored two tries!

What an absolutely weird game.
England down to fourteen and Argentina seemed to do everything possible not to capitalise on that.
Not sure if it proved if England have improved dramatically attack wise as they scored no tries and instead relied on the brilliance of Ford to kick all the points made available by Argentina's woeful performance.  Will be interesting to see if Ford retains the 10 shirt once Farrell becomes available as Ford was absolutely outstanding.
As for the ITV coverage, I assume that the other Home Nation games will have the same blanket all Home Nation commentary/punditry team as for this match... 

Sadly the Scotland game has Habana on mic with a couple of Scots.

Tight first quarter, but boy this Bok team knows how to pressurise. 

Some piss poor refereeing (or lack of it) in this game. Head on head tackle on Dempsey (where's the consistency?) and a punch on Graham. Neither looked at by the refs.

Terrible reffing in Wales vs Fiji. Fiji were robbed.

What a game though! And of all players to knock on at the end. Wales pushed their luck defending that line and Fiji got the yellow that had been brewing in the ref’s mind. Tompkins is an amazing player. 

It was a great game but spoiled by the reffing. Wales got three final warnings and no card for all those fouls on their try line, and Fiji shouldn't have had that try disallowed. OK Fiji lost with that knockon but a desperate last second try wouldn't have been needed with fair reffing.

I'm going off rugby these days because it seems that in about a quarter of matches the ref decides who wins. Even if these matches aren't decided on actual ref bias (which the Fiji one was IMO), too many matches seem to hang on a single decision that can be arbitary.

A France or Scotland follower might argue that this is not new though at least Craig Joubert has retired.

On the other hand, France and Scotland rugby fans have much to be cheerful about these days, the South Africa game aside. 

I think all professional sport share the consistency problem. (India and DRS for example, even Football which is swimming in money). It’s certainly testing our patience as ‘enjoyers of the game’. 

Also Dan Biggar.  He needs to chill out. 

The clock had gone to red at the end of the first half and Wales tried running it our from their own line. I was screaming at the TV for them to kick it out so I don't blame Dan Biggar for getting mad.

I honestly thought Jessie Kriel would have been cited by now. 🤷‍♀️ 

Looks like he's going to get away with it. https://www.the42.ie/jesse-kriel-citing-6165928-Sep2023/

I also thought Wales were Lucky to get away without a second yellow. In fairness to the ref however, I think he gave Wales one (not three) final warning and, at the first Wales infringement after this (albeit some time later) he did card Domachowski. I thought the Fijian yellow was pretty clear cut tbh, despite the lack of earlier infringements. The maul was travelling to the try line very quickly before it was illegally brought down. 

It was just very unprofessional, and these guys are supposed to be professionals. 

People make mistakes, but it doesn't mean you should be disrespectful. 

Red red green red green green amber. 

Fair points, all. I must stop my subconscious support of Wales. For the record I support England. 
I don’t really know what to say about the social media backlash on the ref. He’s experienced, optics are often not fully understood (as you rightly pointed out), it’s a time of change and I just think it’s a terrible sign of the times in rugby. 
There is and has always been a consistency problem at every level. I’m not saying we should stop striving for it, but we should be more used to it by now. 
 

Still, there are some promising games for the home nations players this weekend in the main. 

So predictable. 

Nigel Owen's "whistle watch" is always worth a watch. Supposedly the officials couldn't be 100% sure there was head contact in the Kriel incident - https://youtu.be/UUvxnpyYJ6w?si=pp6gJBhHeVYGa7wg

Incidentally, is anyone else finding the ITV coverage is little disappointing? There is often zero discussion on tactics.

Cheers - yeah I usually have time to check in with rational experts but I’ve hit a busy week. 
 

I feel like turning the sound down sometimes and listening to the radio sometimes. Tabloid TV at best. Occasionally I watch the pundits for a giggle. Sir Clive seems to be slurring his words slightly, he’s certainly looking like he’s reached that age of accelerated older appearance. I don’t mind Johnny Wilkinson at all; I mean I don’t really listen to what he says but that bloke has a special place in my mind and he is blanket forgiven for spouting shite. 

Conversely, I’ve got loads of time for Sean Fitz, George Gregan and Rory Best who are covering the NZ Namibia game.

I was just thinking the same thing. All great objective viewpoints and know what they're talking about. 

Does anyone know what happened to the Namibian centre? Got injured but none of the commentators actually said what happened, and I must have missed it on the telly, as there wasn't any replays. Not that I actually enjoy watching injuries, makes me squeemish, but just seemed odd they didn't comment on it more than "looked like a serious injury"

Twitter suggests it’s ankle. Horrific. Best wishes to Malan for recovery. 

Bring on today’s games, the Boks should have an easy game. Australia Vs Fiji is the stand out game for me. I so hope Fiji take the victory! England should beat Japan but given our recent form anything is possible!!

Fiji are good value so far! 

What a start for the second half

Good game. Fiji doing really well 

Not a good game, a great game 

Wow. That was special. 

That was awesome 

On the edge of my seat but so happy for them 

Great result for Fiji. Not sure it's a good result for Wales as it blows the group wide open. Wales may come to regret allowing Fiji to get 2 losing bonus points.

Would have thought Wales were just blooming grateful not to have lost!

Wales v Australia could be a big game.

It's a good job Wilkinson could play rugby..... listening to him discuss drop goals is like listening to a turnip discussing Proust.

Reminded me of Captain Kirk climbing a mountain.

.......or maybe Proust discussing turnips?

After today, this will definitely be the most anticipated game of the pools... until Scotland play Ireland if/when the Irish beat SA. Great rugby!!!

Its a key weekend for sure. I’m gutted about DuPont. Some of the play he was pushing through was astounding against Namibia and I was settling back to the idea that since he’s such a great player, it didn’t matter if my team didn’t look like winning it, as long as I could at least drink in some genuine moments of genius on the greatest stage in knockout rugby. Sadly no. And that’s a real shame for rugby, almost as much of a shame as Eddie Jones continuous testosterone spout. 

Smith always looks so good against tier 2 opposition. 

This one’s a cracker - let’s see what the new pack achieves 

Furlong really well targeted at scrum and obvious disarray at line out and still they took their chance. Coupled with some high energy, disciplined defence, this side look fantastic.

Zombie!

Best game of the tournament so far. Total commitment.

England v Chile is the best game thus far.
Seriously? 

I think Dizzy's referring to the Ireland / S.Africa game. France / NZ was pretty good, but this was nail-biting quality stuff between two teams that deserve to be 1 and 2 in the world.

Go Ireland!

Wow, Aussie's are out. Eddie J is in for a slating back home. Just seen him being interviewed. Remarkably humble for him.

Great result for Wales though, building momentum nicely. 

To be fair to Eddie, he is pretty humble in defeat. 
 

Awesome from Wales.

It was a remarkably stress-free evening for this Wales supporter! We never looked like losing and though Australia were pretty rubbish that was partly because we made them pretty rubbish through a dominant performance in pretty much every aspect of play.

I've always rated Gareth Anscombe, he was a fab player for Cardiff for years, and I told his dad that when he drove me to the airport in his cab a couple of months ago! He did a brilliant job tonight taking over at outside half. What a great dilemma for Gatland if Biggar's fit for the quarter final!

The boyos certainly did a number on a very lacklustre Aussie side, didn't they ? Good to see.

Wales were very good but Australia were pathetic by the second half. (They were about as bad as when I saw Andrew Sheridan demolish so many Aussie front rowers that it went to uncontested scrums.) I think Skelton would have helped them  but that's just the way it goes in a long tournament....injuries and suspensions etc.

I was interested to hear comments along the lines that rugby union is struggling really badly / worse than previously against league and Aussie Rules. This result will hardly have helped!

Compared to League and Aussie Rules, Union's always been a minority interest down there.

The Wallabies needs this. Australian rugby needs it too. Suddenly the Lions tour is looking  a bit incidental, like that idiotic Woodward-led trip to NZ. 

I guess if you're saes it's probably nice to see a big score or something? 

Always! I don’t think that’s was what the OP meant though.

I’m looking forward to the hilarious England vs Wales final as two teams down and out six months ago somehow spawn there way through.

Its knockout rugby after all! And it’s turning into a wonderful tournament too. I think it’s still pretty open given the fluctuating conditions. 
I’m looking forward to DuPont as phantom of the opera. 

I don't know if I agree with you,  but that gave me a real, cathartic belly laugh. 

I used to play rugby rather reluctantly between the age of 7 and 23, inevitably second row scrum and  trying to look keen but making sure I didn't get caught up where the action was, at least when I was at school. Now I've been watching these matches and realized what a superb game it is, but for one thing. There seem to be far too many penalties, and with the extraordinary standard of a set piece kick far too many matches are being won by these penalties. It strikes me they count too high. I'd like to know what the experts think. For me a solution would be to reduce from two to one and a half points. The idea of half points would certainly be considered radical, but why not?

Please, this is a genuine enquirer and I'd like to hear what others think.

I think there is an argument that this would result in fewer kicks at goal, but more penalties .

If a penalty is kickable, it is the defending team that has committed the offense. Often these decisions are based on narrow margins, slightly offside, slowing the ball down etc. in an attempt to prevent a try  If you reduce the value of a penalty kick, you would just make it more likely that defending teams would commit penalties. 

Well thank you for your reply which does not convince me of the relative value of a proper try.,nI've just turned on the present match  and all I ca n hear is encore une pénalité . And the  usual UKC unexplained down ticks with no explanation to a perfect genuine enquiry. I've turned both the TV and UKC off.

I am watching the game with German commentary, but I'm pretty sure there were four tries in the first half and only one penalty kick? Reading the report the earlier  game had 8 tries and 1 penalty??

Mrs J has just suggested I do the same. 

Historically, the value of a try relative to a penalty has been gradually increasing. Maybe put a try up to 6 or 7! This from wikipedia:

"Historically, no points at all were awarded for a try, the reward being to "try" to score a goal (to kick the ball over the cross bar and between the posts). Modern points scoring was introduced in the late 1880s, and was uniformly accepted by the Home Nations for the 1890/91 season.

The balance in value between tries and conversions has changed greatly over the years. Until 1891, a try scored one point, a conversion two. For the next two years, tries scored two points and conversion three. In 1893, the modern pattern of tries scoring more was begun, with three points awarded for a try, two for a kick. The number of points from a try increased to four in 1971 and five in 1992.

Penalties have been worth three points since 1891 (they previously had been worth two points). The value of the drop goal was four points between 1891 and 1948, three points at all other times"

A penalty is worth three points and not two which is perhaps an indicator that you don't actually follow Rugby on a regular basis and perhaps don't understand it.
With regards to most modern games, the generally accepted ethos is that if you don't score Tries, then you probably won't win.  This is further enhanced by the Bonus point awarded for scoring four Tries in a game which encourages teams to kick for touch, etc. as opposed to kicking for a goal.
I believe that in this World Cup, the winning teams have generally won by scoring more Tries than their opponents and haven't beaten a better side by simply having a better kicker.
One possible outlier is England vs Argentina, where Ford basically won the game by kicking Drop Goals.  Then again, that was probably equally lost by Argentina by being so rubbish. 
 

When England won it in 2003, against the better teams they scored less than one try per game. Impressive strength and discipline, and Wilkinson’s kicking , won it. Boring though. 

and twenty years later, Wilkinson and Woodward are still managing to be boring. 

No idea why you are getting all the dislikes. It is a very valid point for discussion and the fact that the scoring has changed over the years shows that it has always been considered something worth thinking about.

I think the downvotes might be because you said, "perhaps they should be downgraded from 2 points to 1 1/2 points" whereas a penalty kick is worth 3 points. Technical inaccuracy brings out the pettiness in everyone, including me, sorry. *edit: just saw this mentioned above.

I remember the days of the 4 point try and conversion = 6 points, with my (perhaps wrongly) main understanding that it was increased to 5 points so that a converted try was worth more than 2 penalties. 

I must admit I'm a fan of the Rugby League scoring. 4 points try, 2 points conversion, 2 points penalty and 1 point drop goal; in the fact I like a drop goal option being used to win a tight match at the end of the 80 rather than throughout the game (queue the downvotes for me from George Ford's fans).

In most of the one-sided matches between Tier 1 nations and Tier 2 nations*, the points differences have been due to the very large numbers of tries being scored. For example, Scotland scored 12 tries against Romania with no points from penalties, New Zealand scored 14 against Italy (not a Tier 2 nation, but a comprehensive drubbing), again with no points from penalties, England scored 11 tries against Chile, and again with no points from conversions. In such one-sided games, teams and individual players see the opportunities to boost their own points tallies by scoring tries and conversions, in preference to the lower points haul from kicked penalties. 

It's more likely that points from penalties form a more significant proportion of the points tally in more evenly matched games. In these games, tries are harder to come by, and points from kicked penalties are a safer way of gaining points. 

*There are 11 Tier 1 nations - the European Six Nations, New Zealand, Australia, South Africa, Japan and Argentina. Tier 2 nations are the next rung down in the world rankings. 

Strictly speaking, the Tiers have been replaced by World Rugby's performance and development status classifications, but Tier 1 and Tier 2 is a useful shorthand for the teams playing in the World Cup. 

I haven't read the whole thread but ....the higher the points for a try, the bigger the incentive to transgress to avoid one being scored against you. We see this all the time already with multiple collapses, offsides etc within 5 metres of the try line. Ask the Fijians who played against Wales! The real deterrent here is to sin bin someone sooner as, on average,  teams concede more than 7 points when down to 14 men.

Defineyetly! 

I can still remember vividly my disappointment when you guys beat us in 1987 (yous got a crap England and crushed them in the quarters and a good Australia whipped us!), when I was 16. I will shed tears of joy if Ireland get to the semis (36 years is a long time to wait for anything!). Contrast with both Irish teams in football is huge (Northern Ireland in '82 and us [Republic!] in '90)!

Quiet Mark please. I don’t know if you jinxed it, nah, just about got away with it I think.

Somewhat on subject, has anyone else listened to the latest real science of sport podcast on rugby laws? Really interesting stuff. Particularly regarding the motivation for law changes (foremost for player welfare but also to help the game as a spectacle) and how they are tested prior to being accepted or rejected.

Contrary, to what I regard to be the public perception, rugby now is far more free flowing than it was in the 70s and 80s when measured against all metrics - total ball in play time, average play time between stoppages, fewer number of set pieces etc.

https://shows.acast.com/realscienceofsport/episodes/the-most-fascinating-ex...

yep…. With obvious consequences to the players of such a noble game…

To be fair, I have dual nationality so am very enthusiastically supporting Ireland as well!

Hopefully!

Good for you! I wholeheartedly threw in our lot with yous boys in 1987 and 2011 (Wales were robbed that year! Deserved to win the trophy.)

So the last weekend of pool games... Any predictions to go against the bookies? Scotland to cause an upset? Fiji to implode and let Australia through? Italy to shake off last week's disaster by fronting up and kicking France out of their own WC? Argentina v Japan to be the closest game for a do or die win?

It is hard to see past the expected results. I will be watching the Scotland match in the hope they can pull off something completely unlikely, but given their record against Ireland, even if they were to win, I cannot see them scoring enough points to go through. Scotland's destiny in this World Cup was pretty much fixed when the draw was made.  

Despite having an Australian wife, I hope Australia are sent packing. This is entirely due to Eddie Jones. I don't want to see France eliminated. They are a supremely talented team, and progress would allow Dupont to reappear in the latter stages, which would be fitting. 

Argentina vs Japan will be the interesting one. Argentina were dreadful against England, not entirely convincing against Samoa and the Chile match was neither here nor there as a test of their current state. Japan seem to be in a similar position, and with this being a crucial match - as you say, do or die - I hope to see a truly exciting match. I doubt either side will play cautiously. 

I think Argentina may well be playing for automatic inclusion to the 27 World Cup which makes it frankly a very interesting weekend if I’m right. 
NZ looked great last night, I thought. 

What are the criteria? I know the 3rd place in each pool has automatic entry. Presumably there is another rankings-based requirement? 

I missed that unfortunately. I did see a surprisingly small margin at half-time, but they obviously picked it up in the second half. 

Ah I may have misunderstood this actually, yes you are right, 3rd place in pools guarantees inclusion. Reading the below in fact it looks fairly safe for Argentina and Japan for 27. My bad. 

From the ‘permutations’ page in RWC website:

If the match ends in a draw, Japan must be the only team to get a try-scoring bonus point to finish second.

If neither get a bonus point in the draw, Samoa must beat England by 29 points and get a try-bonus point to have the best points difference of the three teams to finish second (+47). Argentina would then finish third on points difference from Japan to qualify for RWC 2027.

I’m enjoying the mind bending Scotland permutations though. 

As a Scotland supporter, I'm not enjoying them ...

It’s been a cruel draw for one of the most entertaining sides of the last couple of years, for sure. 

Crikey, France don’t look like giving an inch do they. Got to hand it to Edwards.

Great effort! Glad the Azzuri have scored

Agree. I wonder if they’ve ever considered a plate competition for the 3rd and 4th placed group teams.

I would be in favour of that. 

Much as I love the game the drubbings handed out to tier 2 nations do not look like fun for the players to me. If the players are happy to participate then fine. I am concerned about player safety in such mismatches.

My preference would be a tier 1 cup and tier 2 plate from the start.

I'm not so sure on that - there have been some very good performances from tier 2 teams, and some drubbings for tier 1 (Italy) outfits. Everytime I see tier 2 players come off the pitch against the All Blacks, their eyes are shining.

Agreed, unfortunately Italy have found the All Blacks and France in a mood to demonstrate clear eighty minute dominance.

Any idea what time the England game starts?

If you know, can can you tell the England team as I think they think this is still the warm up....

Not sure, England don’t seem very good with clocks

Hold on a minute, really...?

England were diabolical. God knows what they do in training.

If a Lions squad were picked now, I can't think of any English player deserving a place. 

Hang on .. that's unfair.  We need to judge them on a performance where Farrell isn't playing.

Ouch!!

Anyway,  now a proper game 😁

Yes that was woeful. I was in Samoa's camp as a friend's husband is their assistant coach, but it wasn't good to see all the simple mistakes made by England. I think what struck me most was someone winning a turnover and Ben Earls celebrating like it was the final 2 minutes of the final. Just get on and do your job.

Wonderful stuff from Portugal. 

Indeed. A great thrill for them. It's a shame there aren't better opportunities for them and other developing countries to play against higher level opposition more regularly. Mind you, Fiji were quite dreadful at times last night. 

So now we have two quarter-finals worthy of semi-finals - Ireland vs New Zealand and France vs South Africa - and two quarter-finals of, shall we say, a slightly lesser quality. 

Agreed.  The imbalance within the draw has really had a negative impact on this tournament (the current top two teams in the world in the same group, the current top 4 teams in the world meeting in the QFs).  It's difficult to understand why it needs to be based on seedings several years before the tournament. I suppose it has given some of the lesser nations more opportunity to progress - perhaps England will take advantage

I don't know the original thinking regarding the seedings being taken three years before the tournament, but at least World Rugby has recognised the problem, so it is to be hoped we will not see a recurrence in 2027. 

https://rugby365.com/latest-news/rugby-chief-vows-to-end-lopsided-world-cup...

In fairness to World Rugby, it would have been difficult to predict the Eddie Jones-inspired collapse in both England's and Australia's rankings. 

I can’t remember a WC with a distinct possibility of all Northern Hemisphere semis. 
Certain groups of fans could moan about this for generations to come. 
 

Seriously though, I’m super excited to see Ireland’s trial by combat and France’s playing All Blacks rugby against the All Blacks. England don’t deserve anything but they could just squeeze through. Wales do deserve a top 4 finish in my view, but that QF is suddenly looking a lot more difficult. 

QF predictions anyone? 
I note Foxy picked Fiji to go through on the RU Podcast; he’s not naive but I do think he is virulently anti-English. 
I like to think Ireland are a bit too strong for the All Blacks. 
That France team is running so physically smooth with all the flair of a 70s Brazil football team, I think they will prove too much for the Saffas depending on the bench splits - a game for the ages perhaps? Wales should prevail.

Last four:
Ireland - They're Ireland...
France - The days on them having a shocker and losing the plot have long gone.
Wales - Just and might depend on if Anscombe plays.
Fiji - Purely on recent potential as Fiji have been good at times and England haven't.

Final:
Ireland v France
Ireland to win - I think...

Let's go for the easy ones first:

Wales should beat Argentina. I wouldn't have said that at the start of the year but Gatland's done his magic and Jac Morgan's being Warburtonesque in his leadership.

England should beat Fiji, but it may depend on discipline and not playing Farrell.

All Blacks always dangerous even when they're not so hot but I'm not sure they've got the power up front to beat the Irish. It'll feel like a home game for the Irish too. 

France v South Africa should be mega and I think too close to call.

Can anyone explain the appeal of Owen Farrell? I see that Borthwick is set to pick Farrell at 10 and drop George Ford for the Fiji game. Ford has far more creativity than Farrell and is far less likely to give away penalties (and get yellow-carded) than Farrell. Ford virtually won the Argentina game single-handed. And yet Farrell gets the nod? 

No idea why Farrell gets the nod, England were a better side with Ford at 10 and having Smith come on as a sub.

I posted this on Facebook 8n ye3ars ago...

"At last we get to see what Ford and Slade can do in tandem. However what the f**k is the point of putting Farrell in between them. Two players who can play fast flat rugby and be an attacking threat and you go and separate them with a defensive back who likes to play in the pocket. Utterly utterly pointless!"

Seems like nothing has changed despite the evidence that most fans can see.

As an All Blacks supporter through and through, I am obviously in one camp. 

However, having lived in Dublin and played for the great Lansdowne club for 5 years, I would not be disappointed to see the mighty men in green go all the way. That would be something wouldn't it? From never winning a knock-out match to lifting the trophy in one go. Fairy tail stuff. 

As the proud (indeed smug) possessor of dual nationality, I would be ecstatic if Ireland went all the way. Except that would mean them knocking out Wales in the semis which is my 'can't win, can't lose' match!!

Not this again… 

Fans in uproar about Farrell’s inclusion but players and coaches continue to rave about the player. 100 caps, England’s record points scorer, etc. Shane Horgan reckoned it was a class issue - League background and all that, Haskell thought it was because he doesn’t court the media. A very good friend of mine was a coach at Sarries when he first arrived and he said he was literally the best player he’d ever seen (and he’d spent 2-3 years with the Chiefs!). I know that was a long time ago but I think we need to check our knowledge or stats before piling on with a collective whine about Owen Farrell. 
 

edit: A quick check on the internet shows the usual suspects continuing with negativity toward or about Owen Farrell, The Daily Mail and Wales Online plus a few online brands desperate for clicks. 

Always interesting, and it’s not just England that have picked him - Gatland has on a fair few occasions. He clearly is very good.

I think the central problem is that he is a great player, for a particular style of play. Ford is better for another style - we need to pick a style and go with it, or be able to switch about as required.

the style Ford or Smith suits is very easy on the eye, Faz less so - I guess it comes down to do you want your team to be Sarries or Bears?

:> so - I guess it comes down to do you want your team to be Sarries or Bears?

That depends which opposition your team is facing I suppose and how well the rest of the team’s strengths and party-tricks rate against their identified weakness. Could we out-Fiji Fiji? Borthers doesn’t seem to think so; not this weekend anyway. 

Farrell is too slow to make a decision, and even too slow to take a kick.

He telegraphs his dropkicks so the opposition are ready for them.

He regularly tackles too high and gets yellow (and red) carded.

He also seems (at least to me) to be more interested in getting points (by kicking) for his personal tally rather than playing for what's best for the team - a real problem when he's captain and makes all the decisions.

I wouldn't have even picked him to be part of the squad.

Which other fly-half would you have selected? 

Sounds like Borthwick is aiming not to lose as opposed to aiming to win - which sort of makes sense now that it's knockout rugby.
The game is being played in Marseille with a weather forecast for dry warm weather and with low humidity.  Ideal for running rugby which should suit the Fijians. 

Casualties so far:

1 ref

Most of the numbers on the Wales shirts

Meh

Wales have been hanging on all tournament, played much better than expected 6 months ago but would have got pasted in the semis no matter what.

I don't think either Wales or Argentina would have got any further regardless of who won this quarter, given what awaits!

<takes off red shirt, puts on green >

I think his lack of popularity with fans is down to general bellendish behaviour on the pitch e.g. diving, poor discipline etc etc. On days where he keeps this in check he's absolutely unreal.

Can't argue with that as neither side played particularly well and the same will probably apply to the winner of the England/Fiji game tomorrow.
Longer term problem for Wales is that they're going to lose both Biggar and Anscombe after the World Cup and I don't think Costello is currently good enough at International level.

I wouldn't disagree with that, it was just galling that Tomkins takes a head shot which is picked up by the TMO, the commentators are discussing possible mitigation from a red to a yellow card and the ref doesn't even award a penalty then Argentina go on and score. Owen Farrell would have been sent off for that challenge!

Wales did however make too many mistakes in the second half, simple as.

Commiserations!

If Kate puts it on a hot wash with some bleach could be white for this afternoon?

That Ireland-All Black's game was awesome. One of the best I've ever watched. Unremitting toil and grinding action. I sat open-mouthed during that final 10 minutes of unremitting Irish pressure and All Black's selling their souls to withstand the battering. A shame it had to finally end with no Irish try, but what an advert for rugby.

Agree 100%

:-D

Didn't realise Fiji played in white

That was the best game of the last decade for me and shows the depth of the All Blacks to start and finish so strongly. Irish players, wherever they are from, can feel rightly proud of their efforts. I love the versatility of those two groups of players each can play in any given role. You don’t see Johnny May counter rucking as effectively as those players last night. Richie Moaga was the difference for me, not that Sexton was poor, far from it. 
Argentina 10s were magnificent. 

England are still in this until around 5.30pm at least.  
 

I do hope they lose. It would be such a travesty for England to be the only British side to make the semis.

Or if they do win, that they go on to get the massive drubbing from one of the serious contenders they have jammily avoided so far.

Thats a lot of negativity there, Robert!

Half time and it looks to me like England managing the opponent well and Farrell is playing very well indeed. 

Yes, looks like they are going to live to lose another day.

It’s turned into another exciting game! 

Indeed. My hopes really got up again there for a moment!

It certainly was! The last few minutes was definitely squeaky bum time.

I suppose with how poor they've been it's easy to forget several of the England squad have already played in a World Cup final after dumping out the All Blacks in a brutal semi-final last time around. Don't see them posing France or SA too many problems though....

Owen Farrell has provided some food for thought for his detractors; he was immense in defence. Ben Earl’s best England game to date in my view. 

As I said upthread I think he's disliked for his bellendery rather than his playing abilities. The ref seemed to go easy on both sides which made the game far more interesting.

Yes it did. Raynal has had a few games like that. 

It would - but not their fault, honest toilers at worst, and if you look at the players CV’s should be better than they are.

they do normally- but change shirts tonight.

Bloody brilliant so far for France v RSA. If they keep this up for 80 mins it will be amazing.

It’s a privilege to watch this match.

This is the first match I've watched so far, my God what a game. England have confounded expectations but I imagine they will be quaking in their boots after this one. Allez les Bleus!

These two are playing a different game to England!! Come on France. 

Don't want a NZ Vs Saffers final 

Feck.

once again, England are left to carry the torch for the Northern Hemisphere.

Domage.

Dammit.

Looking forward to it!

I cannot remember a tournament with four quarter finals of that quality.  England - Fiji was the poorest game by quite some way, and was still a decent enough watch. Hard to call which of SA - France and NZ - Ireland was the better spectacle.

Well, I managed to get that spectacularly wrong!
My only bit of defence is that Wales might have won if Anscombe was available - perhaps...
As for England progressing further, lets hope not on a purely Rugby perspective as they really don't deserve it. 

If England beat this SA side I think they will have thoroughly deserved it - it will have to be an immense effort. can’t really see it as man for man SA are better than us, and seem unlikely to choke.

And neither do France nor Ireland *deserve* to be out. Tournaments rarely work like that. It’s not a useful measure but colours our feelings throughout and provides a dimension of value. England is the only unbeaten side in the last four. Deserving or not, that team has confounded almost universal dislike throughout. I can’t remember another team in the same situation. 

My wife has gone from oh FFS not rugby again.

To what time is the rugby on at? 

Doesn't matter who is playing,she loves it 

Really? Wales Argentina was dreadful. So many spilt passes and messed-up plays. England Fiji was tidy in comparison although not in the same ballpark as the other two matches for sure.

Alan

If the semis are anything like the quarter finals we are in for a feast! Thrilling rugby.!!

It wasn't a display of technical excellence, that's for sure.  But it was interesting and exciting throughout, which is much more than can be said for some games I've sat through in recent months!

Well for me recently reconverted to rugby that France Springboks match made me realize what a fantastic game it can be. I just never believed that a match could be so gripping and so hard fought at such a level of skill, ability and fitness to the very last moments. It's simply à pity that in some earlier rounds there were so many' walkovers through merging two levels of teams in the same competition 

I suspect they won't be, in part because of the seeding procedures. I fully expect NZ to flatten Argentina and SA to do the same to England. Final could be good but we've seen it before when two amazing sides cancel each other out in the pressure of the final. Fingers crossed that doesn't happen.

It's certainly a very different Boks team to the one that just steamrolled England four years ago, and that's to be applauded.

I read a comment yesterday along the lines of 'Ireland-NZ was the best RWC game ever, for 24 hours'

I agree. purely however because of the mismatched pool selection that we've heard so much about. It made the quarter finals between very evenly matched teams, thus making for exciting rugby, with all games coming down to last plays to decide the winner (apart from the pumas sealing it 3 minutes from the end). Two of the games were more than worthy of finals and imho have been better than most other finals, barring 1995 and 2003. Love it!

Fantastic QFs all round: particularly NZ/Ireland and France/ SA .

As a Scot currently in France, I was rooting for France to win and thought they played the better rugby last night; however, SA got the run of the green and benefitted from one or two refereeing decisions that may not have gone their way with another ref.
I used to get a bit annoyed at some of obvious refereeing mistakes - that can decide the outcome of a game; however, given the complexity of the modern game and the difficulty for referees, I think you just have to live with these decisions and just enjoy the level of rugby on show - this weekend has been a joy to watch. 
I will be supporting England as the last NH team; however, think it’s going to be difficult for them. 

Say that again when watching an absorbing 6-3 armwrestle in the pouring rain in Doncaster; the competition could be equally intense and skill levels equally balanced. An offwidth of a game if you will. 

Sounds a bit like Type 2 fun.

There's a nice cyclic symmetry to the results between the four big teams: South Africa beat France who beat New Zealand who beat Ireland who beat South Africa who beat......

They are clearly all both better and worse than each other.

Yes, I think we have effectively already had the semi-finals, and the way it should always have been without the seeding nonsense.

But that’s the game and the role of a tournament! We can’t have the penny and the bun.  At some point, if we want the likes of Portugal involved a parity must be reached. No one moaned too heavily at the time the strategy for seeding this WC was announced if I recall correctly. For our own sake we need to be happy with the positives and celebrate them lest we become Victor Meldrew and love to hate it. 

Call me Victor because at the time I wasn't happy with the draw being done when it was. 

NZ have recalled Mark Telea for the semi-final, a genuine talent whose natural game fits really well with the All Black back three: they can score from anywhere and inevitably will. Pumas will have their hands full.

Rassie has been playing games in the press conference, not that he needs to - this Springbok machine is like the Borg. 

England squad just named. Good call bringing Steward back in imho. Either way, its gonna be a brutal match for all involved.

I fear that England won't get anywhere near parity up front or at breakdowns so the scope for the backs to score points will be limited.......even if they had a clear identity about how they wanted, or were expected, to play. Cole was previously savaged by the Boks and is older but just as limited. Marler can scrummage but offers little else apart from the odd header!

and cupping...

I actually think Marler all things considered has looked pretty good all tournament. Very quick at the ruck, looking well drilled, powerful in the scrum. Slow and heavy in the open for sure, but valuable. Dan Cole though as a starter in 2023 is ridiculous. 

I'd have ditched Johnny May a long time ago. For all his speed he has no aggression or creativity. I'd rather lose taking the gamble on Arundel. 

Under Borthwick England have looked so demotivated. I never thought I'd see Atoje look like he wished he was somwhere else. I want to see players like Smith, Ford etc, who bring fire to the pitch when they play, utilised more. 

Agreed, wonderful "head down and get on with it" servant to the England side over his long career but........

It's so frustrating. 

A squad bursting with top class talent, a good few players in the 2019 final etc etc but they don't seem to be able do anything meaningful. 

The only chance they've got at the weekend is if SA are still knackered from playing France.

Ah well, could be worse, could be a Wallabies fan.....;p

I don’t mind Marler, his performance offers something ‘solid’ against this Boks side. Martin is an odd selection particularly given Chessum’s tournament so far, but again he’s abrasive and physical for Leicester and pretty young so you’d expect his engine to work well. 
I like Smith but with the bombs going up all game, Steward offers, literally, a safe pair of hands; Smith, whether we like it or not, is not the right 10 against the Springboks. 
I hope it’s going to be a great game. 

All Blacks look like they might just sneak this one.....

Yes, while it would have been nice to see the underdogs do well, one does, on the other hand, obviously want to see a final showdown between New Zealand and South Africa.

I was happy to miss the game last night; I enjoyed watching The Atomic Bitchwax instead who were brutally amazing. A bit like the All Blacks really. 
I’ve caught up now and Argentina had neither the hope nor the plan to contain the physicality, flair, pace and invention of these New Zealand players. They look very much in form. Jordi Barrett was imperious. 
I would say that I agree with Will Greenwood; for South Africa to win today they will have to perform brilliantly. It’s not going to be a walkover. 
 

I enjoy these moments and any true rugby enthusiast must agree that it is a decent match-up. For members of the ‘anyone but England’ club, enjoy and good luck!

It appears you mean "I do" rather than "one does", particularly when posting on a UK based forum.

That said, I do agree that for a neutral, SA vs NZ looks the more compelling fixture.

However if England play well enough to beat SA then you'd hope they'd also manage a good final against NZ.

In that unlikely event, I think one would like to see them suffer the indignity of two successive final defeats.

Referring to the All Blacks as a New Zealand team is not strictly accurate;

An awful lot of them weren't born in New Zealand, and mainly these came from the South Sea islands that are "2nd tier" - Fiji, Samoa, Tonga. Just how many of them were taken to New Zealand due to the lack of higher education in the islands is questionable - especially as New Zealand has been "responsible" for this higher education - or rather lack of it - up till now.

Now that there is finally at least one higher education unit in the islands, it will be interesting to see how the New Zealand team fares in the future, given that the most fruitful source of players is being reduced.

Of course, a lack of higher education in the islands must be purely coincidental and nothing to do with the New Zealand Rugby system - some may say that, but I couldn't possibly comment.

A lot of teams use the residency rule including England.

In reply to 

I think it's the influence of English private schools that resulted in Mako and Billy Vunipola playing for England rather than Wales like Taulupe Faletau.

There seem to be a large number of players originally from the Southern Hemisphere playing for the home nations? 

How many is 'an awful lot'?

5 were born in Tonga, 2 in Samoa, 2 in Australia, 1 in Fiji and 1 in Scotland.

Thank you. I'm intrigued by the Scot!

Is that for the starting 15, match day 23 or world cup squad 33?

Wasnt it something like the 2021 six nations had close to 80 foreign born players? Although France and Ireland demonstrate quality is more important than quantity. 

Finlay Christie was born in Scotland but his family moved to New Zealand when he was a child.

Why’s that then? 
Reading your words makes me think you are less of a rugby fan than a political activist. A persisting ‘Anything but England’ approach is a lazy and ignorant attitude, and reading your insight on climbing I just know that’s not the case with you. I hope you can find some enjoyment somewhere in the game nonetheless. 

That's the whole squad.

It was recalled from memory so apologies if I made any errors.

Thank you - the ginger hair should have been a bit of a give-away. 

If England win by being genuinely better than South Africa then fair enough.
However, England do seem to have adopted a policy of winning games by not losing as opposed to playing exciting Rugby.
Suppose that's OK if you're an England player or supporter, but for the rest of us it's a little bit boring from a Rugby viewing spectacle - especially when you see the quality of the teams that got knocked out in the quarters.
I'm Welsh and am quite happy to acknowledge that we lucked out in the early stages and wouldn't have really deserved to get to the semi's on our current performance. 
 

I'm impressed evennif you've missed one or two. I had to look this up but before the residency rules increased from 3 to 5 years, 27 of the Scottish six nations squad weren't born in Scotland, although some might have been like Finlay in reverse. 

The subject came up in a podcast I listened to about a week ago so it was fairly fresh in my mind.

I’ve played a lot of rugby in Wales. A lot. I can assure you that players there take a win over an attractive, inventive and creative game more readily than players in England. 

Sorry, yes, you are right. A discerning neutral would support England against Australia.

Agreed it's unlikely; personally I'd be happy to see the deserving team win, based on how well they play. If England manage to pull the rabbit out of the hat then good for them, if SA blow them away as expected then they deserve to be in the final. Nothing to be bitter about either way.

As someone else said, the tired old 'anti-England' stance is dull. 

If it makes any difference, being from NZ, I'm in the anyone but SA Camp

Only if you're English. 😀

There'd  be something in your statement if England played less dull rugby.

And had less annoying haircuts.

Hair cuts annoy you? 

Gosh

To be fair, they do seem to have dropped the floppiest one. Credit where credit's due.

In reply 

Good luck for the second half. Just turn over if it’s boring. Rebus is probably on. 

Not anything like as much as the advert for House Of Bruar at half time. But maybe you were spared that abomination in England. Just off to vomit.

Nope, no House of Bruar. Sorry can't recall which ads we had though. I'm not the target audience,  ever, thankfully....

Well the statement applies equally to football / any other sport, so your response that it's purely about the style of rugby they play is clearly rubbish 😀.

Aside from that, I do sort of agree with you about the style, though there is something captivating about the attritional grind. I would of course prefer if they were playing more like Ireland/France etc. but you've got to work with what you have!

Whose going to win then? SA look a shadow of themselves. 

No, only rugby for me these days (unless against Scotland). And Australia obviously.

Good kick......

Englands tactics have pretty much all paid off and they have some fresh legs. What a test match! Never write off a wounded Springbok side though. 

Yep. Still 24 mins to go.

Steward ****ed it. Who'd have guessed!

Superb effort Bokke! That was a great test match.

Oh well.

Brutal finish! So close for England but not surprised to see the Boks surge at the end to nick it.

I thought it was an enthralling contest and glad it wasn't the steam rollering that was predicted. 

OK, bitter comment, hope the All Black's munch them. 

Glad I'm not planning to carry a TV to the campsites on the OMM now.

England gave it their very best shot.

But they don't force people to go to their country (and hence gain a residency status) in order to get an education.

Totally agree. Just hope the Springboks get rested before the final - they had by far the hardest semi, and have a day less to recover.

Shame that.

cracking game though, clever from England, but relentless from SA.

To clarify, I wasn't implying Steward is a bad player. More I didn't think it would be him to fluff the vital play. 

Is that a bit like talented British kids being forced to go to private schools by being offered a scholarship due to their Rugby ability?

It seems that a few Pacific Isalanders go on to play for New Zealand due to the residency rules, but the majority end up playing for Tonga, Samoa etc.  after going to school in New Zealand. 

Well done England.  They weren't massacred. In fact with just a smidgeon of luck they'd have won it. The Boks have had a gruelling tournament. I wonder if they'll have enough left for the final. Whereas the All Blacks... 

Completely, it’s exactly what happened with Tuilagi, Vunipola x2 and countless others. Imagine you are a parent of a talented kid who is offered financial assistance to nurture the talent and receive a great education potentially in another country; you’d consider the offer very seriously indeed. 

How culpable was the guy who gave away the penalty in the scrum with four minutes to go. They said he was the 'first to drop his hip and put his knee on the ground'. Did the strength of the SA forwards mean it was likelyto happen or should he have been more disciplined?

Well, in my potentially biased view I felt the loose head was working Kyle Sinckler from the moment he came on but I don’t think it was just strength, he actually drops slightly for the pen scrum, having stepped slightly left for the previous collapse. Whilst against the laws of the game, it’s one of the dark arts that is pretty fair in my view. You need a cohesive and well drilled front row to pull it off and to combat it, it’s like they played a great couple of chess moves, or bowled a slow delivery rather than cheated. They would have been trying that with Dan Cole too but not effectively. Proper front row play and worthy of the win for Bokke. 
 

Culpable? The SA forwards are incredibly strong, and they have picked props primarily for their scrummaging strength. Our two starting props (Marler and Cole) are very good, and put a huge effort in to give some very stable scrums for the first sixty minutes. 

Genge and Sinckler are props who contribute a lot more in open play, but are less powerful in the scrum. Against most teams they are good enough to hold their own in the scrum, and then add a lot more than Marler/Cole elsewhere.

Genge was just not strong enough or not technically good enough to take the SA power on that occasion. Sinckler gave away most of the penalties in the scrums, on th3vright of the scrum. Genge was penalised for droppings knee to the ground. SA did that a few scrums before and did not get pinged, but hey ho.

(I’ve ignored the hooker and second row, but obviously important as well - George Martin was immense, and I wonder if bringing Dan on might have given us a narrower front row which I found helpful against bigger packs).

When I said 'culpable' it was because it seems to me that in football and rugby, penalties can often be needlessly given away, but you've explained that well to someone whose never played rugby.

I chuckled when that came on. It's clear who they think their rugby viewing audience up here is.

The residency thing does seem a bit of a nonsense. Presumably if it were not for the anomaly of the UK fielding four (well, three and a bit) teams it could just go on citizenship and make far more sense.

In France, I'm reading severe criticism of the ref during last night's match, mainly I think because a lot of French fans blamed the same ref for their defeat last week, and finding further fault with him now no doubt makes them feel better about their cries of bias and/or incompetence.

The increase to 5 years seems a step in the right direction. It seems to be much less of an issue in football, the days of Pat van den Hauwe qualifying to play for Wales by living in London for a few years, seems along time ago.

If I was Pacific Isalander, I'd worry about a change. Would the New Zealand school system be so keen to develop their talented youngsters if their wasn't the possibility of a few playing for the All Blacks, or is it preventing the developing their own system? I'm not sure, again in football the power is with the clubs so, for example, Man City aren't bothered who their German, Brazilian, Finnish youngsters opt to play for internationally, if they end up being good enough. 

Quite. I thought the ref had a pretty good, balanced game, and if anything was giving the 50/50 calls towards England for the most of the game. Only until the 'bomb squad' (such a stupid name) came on for the scrum, things started going the way of the boks. deservedly so.

Weren't massacred, and for most of the game played a tactical masterpiece. IF i'm being overly critical, The winning of the game could have been put away in two instances - OF getting marched 10 and making it a kickable penalty for Libbok (inexcusable for a captain). And George's double not straight throw-ins (the second being comical) when in scoring positions. However, its all hypothetical, I don't think anyone would have won a bet on that score. It would have either been a narrow win to England, or a 15+ win to SA. 

Yeah I dunno about OF. He’s a chip off the old block. In many ways, a lot of time, I’d take that heart and spirit along with the abrasive attitude. Yesterday was different but he has a lot of credit in the bank with me. 
The missed line-outs were proper Homer Simpson moments but again, it’s rugby, I love it for better or for worse, for richer or poorer etc. 

The big problem for World Rugby now is with Owen Farrell going home, who’s going to referee the final ?

I agree,  and although I'm not a fan really, that drop goal was incredible, as was his grubber into the corner forcing a knock-on. Not sure many 10s would have nailed that kick, so it really is a good with the bad kind of selection. 

Is Sexton not available?

Last days of the tournament. Hoping for an AB victory, with England winning tonight. All in all, I've felt its been a pretty good spectacle. Good crowd turn-outs, some surprise wins in pool play as well as some closer games than many would have thought. Quarters were fantastic. 1 semifinal was also a nailbiter.

Any other thoughts before rugby goes away from the UKC threads for another 4 years?

I'm watching England v Belgium womans' soccer instead. Can't be bothered with a third place play-off.

Yes I’m with you in terms of expectations in these last couple of games. Similarly, this World Cup has grown on me and I think with the exception of seeding, it has grown into the game too. Reffing has been consistently variable - did we expect anything else, as I said, it’s grown into this game we love. 
Third place playoff is not the red herring it used to be and these days any match is competitive at this level, even Barbarians. Anyway, game on. 

Yeah it’s not for everyone. It certainly sets aside the genuine rugby enthusiasts from casual England fans. 

As a neutral watching the game, it would be made better if the commentary wasn't quite so biased.

With two ex England Internationals in the box?

To be fair, it’s reflected in the score, possession and territory so far. 

I'm not really a "fan" casual or otherwise. I have no emotional investment in England's success or failure. I enjoy a decent game; if Wales, Scotland or Ireland play better and win that's fine by me.

I grew up playing in the 1970s when Wales were pretty handy and do have a soft spot for them.

it’s turning out a pretty competitive game. One score in it with contrasting styles. Game on indeed!

Well I wasn't expecting much but it's turning into a good game. Respect to Argentina.

Yes, though that pass for Argentina's first try was definitely forwards! But - if it ain't called, it's a try.

It definitely looked forward 

England need to move on now and bring through the next generation 

please let us get rid of Farrell 

The second half was very scrappy and showed how those Argentine players can feast in such an environment; Pumas can continue improving, I think. There’s an abundance of talent and it’s exciting to watch. 
England on the other hand needs to find some belief, pace and a subtle reinvention to compete at this level. Why on earth Arundell was invisible in that first half I’ll never know, but you’d always pick a Farrell and a Tuilagi in your side - they soak up back row attention and allow gaps to be worked and opportunities to arise. I thought Ollie Lawrence did enough last night to press for a more involved international role. 
 

After the opening try, I thought England might kick on and play some more expansive rugby but no such luck! I think England were epitomised at the point Tuilangi came off and we had three fly halves on the pitch at once and no game plan.

Credit where it’s due, Borthwick inherited “Eddie Jones’ England” and eight months to sort them out. I’m not sure everyone would agree he managed to sort them out, but he did make them the best team in the Northern Hemisphere…….

Now is the time to ditch the old guard and bring on the new blood.

Agree completely, it took him a while to build Leicester to a championship winning side, and that was working with them full time. 

he started with the forwards which is his area of expertise, and then brought in other coaches for the backs

It is without doubt the time to bring in the younger generation

It did get a bit farcical with three tens on the field

I don’t think England are the best NH team, certainly Ireland, France and probably Scotland are better. maybe equal with Wales?

We are now in a position to build, but let’s not kid ourselves about where we are.

Free to watch too. Relatively rare nowadays.

This final is delivering value!

A tight game as I thought it might be with 2 strong teams. It never sits well with me when a team that actually scores a try doesn't come out on top

Don’t panic, my tongue was very firmly in my cheek when typing that. 

Gutted for New Zealand. 14 men, scored the try and held them to a point.

Good to know we, England, are on a par with NZ…..

Very funny.
One has to credit South Africa. They beat the fittest team in the tournament, the luckiest team, the No 1 ranked side in the world and the All Blacks. 

By my reckoning, only two of those facts are correct.

Crikey yes, why did I think they’d beaten Ireland? What a drunk! They did however squeeze through a group including Ireland and I also think France was a fitter outfit than Wales and England were lucky. 
 

They certainly had a very tough run.

Whats really struck me, more than in 2019, is how it seems to mean a bit more to SA - Kolisi exemplifying that - perhaps gives them that little extra edge?

I thought that of Ireland, France and NZ too, each with teeth a little more gritted, a little more belief in their system. I guess the union between coach and players has been stronger for longer in camp Springbok. 
It was a good tournament however and I’ve been thoroughly entertained. 

Oh, I mean beyond that - the sense of it being a national endeavour, of importance to the countries view of itself. NZ have that, Wales do, I think Ireland have maybe built it a bit, SA have it maxed out at the moment.

In other Rugby news, Eddie Jones has resigned.

I'll leave it to Felipe Contepomi to express my own views. When asked if Argentina were more deserving of a semi-final berth than us, he resoundingly refuted this.

The wait goes on for me - I have followed the RWC since its inauguration and I am getting more and more bitterly disappointed that Ireland still haven't made the semis. I hope we "lay this ghost" in 2027. I feel that if we don't there's a genuine chance I may never see this happen in my lifetime.

The IRFU have improved a lot since the 80s, despite the fact that they are far from ideal as a national rugby organisation. They didn't take the WC seriously until about 1999, probably blowing at least 2 chances for us to make the semis.

Despite IRFU incompetence, we were still totally robbed in 1991. Lost to Scotland controversially and narrowly and were clearly the better team in the QF against the Aussies. We could and should have done much better in 1987 and 95.

Despite many folks perception, we have rarely "choked". We definitely did in 2007 - not only our most disastrous world cup, but possibly the worst for any top tier nation ever (expectation vs reality).

We were unlucky in 2003 (we would have humped Scotland in the quarters if we had topped our group and complacent in 2011 when we did top our group for the first time ever. Wales killed us in that year's QF and the 22-10 scoreline flattered us a lot. We were buggered by injury in 2015. We played well, but were missing over half a dozen starters in the QF that year and the Argies beat us well (unlike in 2011, the score was very harsh on us, even though we were deservedly knocked out on the day).

2019 was our 2nd worst WC ever - combination of complacency and Schmidt losing the plot (why did he not bring Toner - madness!).

This time around, I am very proud of how Ireland played in every match, but the draw was very cruel to us (our group had the teams ranked 1,2 and 5 and the group with which we were paired had nos 3 and 4). Despite all that, I think we were horribly unlucky in the QF. Wayne Barnes gave one of the worst, most biased reffing performances in the history of the tournament, nearly as bad as Joubert in 2015 (Scotland robbed of a SF appearance) and Rolland in 2011 (Wales probably robbed of the title). Barnes gave the ABs at least 6 points for nothing from his revolting incompetence in reffing the scrum and many other minor breaks also went against us. I doubt whether any team as good as us have harshly went out so early, although France suffered similarly this year too.

The consolation for me is the 6N - there is no doubt that with 3 slams and 2 other overall tournament titles, we have been the pre-eminent 6N team recently and we achieved the type of success I could never have seen coming even in 2008 (let alone in the then 5N in the late 90s). I remember talking to an English work colleague in about 1998 about our crap international form and she tried to console me with the idea that "we play very well, considering our small player pool". I managed to enlighten her and also show what true Irish Rugby fans thought at the time - "I was brought up with 2 triple crowns and knowledge of many other great sides in the past, such as our 1979 2-0 series victory in Australia and Willie John McBride captaining us (with great help from the great Mike Gibson) magnificently to the '74 championship. I am used to Ireland succeeding in internationals". They were not my exact words, but close.

Johnny Sexton would!

Great  reflection, that. You know what though, Mark, the beer; it still tastes the same. The climbing, the skiing, the Mike Gibson print on the wall - all the same. Best of luck for 6N and the new seeding jamboree. 

Revolting incompetence seems a bit strong - especially in a part of the game that is very hard to ref well, and full of spoofing by both sides.

if the man picked to ref the final is so bad, what does that say about all of the rest - or the laws of the game?

But one point wins. The France- Boks , Ireland- NZ,  England-Boks. The final could have been entirely different with a taken penalty here, a missed penalty there. All in all, the results bespeak a genuinely close contest. That's good for rugger.

Would've been better, though, with France v Ireland in the final....

So, Ireland would have won the RWC at least once if it wasn't for injuries, poor team selection, unfortunate group seedings and numerous bad refereeing decisions? 

Cheers! At least the new seeding should work better. I guess it's a bit like the Football World Cup - game is expanding and the tournament needs enlargement. Rugby had many more strong teams than in '87.

Not what I said. Might be a good idea to read my post properly.

Aye, possibly a bit strong! I should have said nauseating bias or similar! I had thought WB was quite good as a 6N ref, but the hallowed ABs and Aussies aren't involved in that, of course. I still don't understand why on numerous occasions in the first half that he was far too willing to give NZ penalties from scrums instead of simply re-setting them (due to "offences" on both sides of the scrum - why didn't he ask his linesman?). I do feel that Craig Joubert and Alain Rolland's decisions (2018 and 11 respectively) were far worse.

I wish we had Jaco Peyper for ref for the QF - I reckon he's the best ref in the modern game and the 2nd best ref ever (Clive Norling was God!).

Something I am puzzled about is why are so few rugby refs ex-forwards? At least they would know more about the front 5's "tricks of the trade".

Show me an ex-top flight forward whose knees will see them around the park for 80 minutes and I’ll show you a game of clean scrums.

Maybe?

Agreed!

Its baked into the business plan for SA!

You probably don't like the "americanism" "Soccer" as well.

On my council estate in Wakefield in the 60s those were the words we used. 

We called it rugger when I was at school around the same time and that was in Rugby! 

And the well-known phrase 'rugger buggers' is almost certainly not imported from across the pond. 

Good point! 

However, given that top flight backs are usually ravaged by their 30s, I may suggest that most refs are certainly ex-players, but backs.

Even with my vitriolic Irish patriotism (possibly kindled by our amazing '85 Championship and Triple Crown), I think Alain Rolland was the worst international ref ever. IIRC, he was capped for Ireland a few times in about 1990 (when the IRFU were useless and should never have selected him) and was the worst ever scrum-half I can remember us ever having! 

I must balance this post a bit - JP Doyle is very good!

Another story about Rolland: remember, he robbed Wales of at least the 2011 WC final if not the trophy and then he robbed Scotland of a deserved and much needed win in Cardiff in 2010.

My wife and I went to Murrayfield a couple of years after these incidents, and when the ref (Alain Rolland that day) was announced over the tannoy, the whole crowd booed loudly and at great length! 67,144 humans all booing the ref - surely the most awesome tribal sound in the Northern Hemisphere!!!                                                                                                                                       

I associate the term 'Rugger' alongside 'Twickers' and the image I get from both is of the stereotypical one of posh schools that England rugby needs to get rid off it wants to appeal to a bigger market. 

I think you are correct. Most pundits and everyone I have ever spoken to agrees and still think a yellow would have been fair.

There was no intention to harm the French player (soz, can't remember who it was) and in addition, it was a borderline case. Given the aforementioned directive, a bit of leniency was the least poor Sam deserved (as well as a ref who was looking out for his own career, rather than refereeing the match correctly). I really admire Sam for never complaining about the red card, even to this day.

I think we savaged him more in Murrayfield, although it was good natured. I was being a bit tongue in cheek. Quite a racket, though - 45,000 Scots and over 22,000 Welsh fans - it was great fun!                                                               

Warburton has said numerous times that he deserved a red card for the tackle.                                                     

When discussing it on TV perhaps. However in his book he writes "I honestly don’t know what the fuss is about. I did almost identical tackles twice in the quarters, one on Ronan O’Gara and the other on Stephen Ferris, and neither one caused a problem....... I honestly can’t see how it can be any more than that. I don’t even think it’s a penalty, let alone a yellow card."

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/sam-warburton-book-ext...

My goodness! I never new this! Cheers for helping me - I thought I was quite knowledgeable about rugby, but obviously not really!

Seems a bit of an opposite extreme opinion. I'm sure you're right - I must read his book. Probably better than re-reading "No Borders - Playing Rugby for Ireland" for the 17th time! (although it's a brilliant book and I highly recommend it even if you hate Ireland!)