UKC

I don't often abseil, but when I do I never back up (normally around 25m max).
I know it's good practice, but never do it. Probably because I feel more in control without the awkwardness of the extra faff. I also often see photos and videos of people abing. with no backup, even on huge mountain routes.

So...my questions - Do people actually do this? Who on here uses a backup? Which scenarios do you back up for and which do you not?

Ta

In reply to ogreville:
Its advisable IMO if their is any chance the ropes could be tangled (which is more common than not on longer abs).

Also remember abseiling can easily dislodge rock which could knock you out and prevent you being in control. Also on longer abseils its not uncommon for people to be abseiling / walking / climbing above you, that could also dislodge rock.

In reply to ogreville:

I do for each and every abseil when I climb, 20 seconds to set up and not a hassle in the slightest to use. Climbing history is littered with people who didn't and died, I cant think of one who died because of a prussic when abseiling.

In reply to ogreville:

I back up, it takes seconds.

In reply to ogreville:

I back up most of the time. I'm familiar with the system I use, so it doesn't feel like a faff at all.

In reply to ogreville:

short ab with no danger (loose rock, etc) I often don't bother
everything else - yes, it only takes seconds

In reply to ogreville:

Last time I didn't back up I put a hole in my leg from the rock... I now always back up. Those few seconds faffing are worth it.

In reply to ogreville:

I never use one. If I need to stop and work with both hands, I'll just take a few turns around my leg. For long, free-hanging abseils, I'll maybe put extra friction in the brake, but I prefer that to the faff of a prussic, particularly during long abseil descents. The only situation where it would really be useful is for falling rocks, but that is a risk that I am prepared to take.

In reply to ogreville:

Pretty much every time I abseil, whether a free-hanging scare-fest into Boulder Ruckle, a multiple-ab descent off an alpine peak, or down the Embankment slab at Millstone.

Always do it. I think it is something like wearing a helmet. A lot of climbers see it not cool to wear a bucket on the head or put prussic on repel set up.

Another bad practise I see often is not putting knots at the end of the ropes. It's unbelievable how many deaths happens because of rappelling off the end of the rope!

In reply to ogreville:

Prussik all the time.
Don't need to get knocked unconscious to momentarily let go of the rope - a foot slip that bangs your elbow into the rock could be enough. Why take the risk when a prussik takes about 10 seconds to put on.

In reply to ogreville:

I always use a backup, for a few reasons:
- Unforeseen circumstances that would cause me to lose control (rocks/water bottles from above, spiders or birds attacking (or caterpillars these days), things I can't even imagine (a drone crashing?)).
- I like to abseil feeling completely safe and relaxed, and the extra relaxation is good for my mental state before climbing.
- So that it's engrained habit for proper dangerous scenarios (i.e. I don't want to be escaping from a thunderstorm, minged out of my mind trying to remember the way to rig the safe way. While this scenario might never happen, it gives me peace of mind to know that I'm ready for it).
- So that any novices I'm climbing with also learn best practice, and see that safe practices are not just applied to the climbing, but to the approach and descent as well.
- Sometimes I have a camera, and want to take some photos from the ab line quickly.

In reply to ogreville:

Unless it's a quick short ab on grit, then yep, I always use a prussik. Very quick and easy to use, and has all the benefits listed above.

In reply to ogreville:

If I'm using an ATC I always like to use a prussic as a back up. If I'm using a Gri-Gri I don't. I think its also important to recognise that according to the latest thinking (I saw a BMC video), a prussic is not considered a fail safe. So, if while abseiling you take your hand off the prussic to untangle rope say, you should first backup the prussic.

In reply to ogreville:

Case by case for me regarding whether I use a prussik or not. For places like Pembroke or the Cromlech I wouldn't usully bother unless stripping a route.

Big, multi-pitch abseils with potential for rope-tangle, loose rock or the need to either find belays or scramble over to belays I'll use a prussik.

However, if it was a bit of a complicated abseil at pembroke to gain a hanging stance then I would.

If I see the ropes are tangled and I don't have a prussik I make sure I stop well above them, wrap the rope around my leg and sort it out before I get to the tangle.

Basically just exercise common sense, the more experience you get the better you'll be able to judge it. If in doubt, put a prussik on would also be a good rule.

I was in the Alps a little while a go and think I abbed off the first route we did with no prussik because it felt very controlled. The second route I started off without but quickly felt this was unsafe as we were having to swing around to get to each ab-station. So I chucked a prussik on and felt much better.

In reply to ogreville:

anything above about 15m then yeah, it takes 10 seconds wouldn't really call it a faff?

In reply to ogreville:

Really struggling to remember that last time I climbed with someone who didn't use a prussic on the abseils, must be over 10 years ago!

Its a no brainer & you invariably attach it whilst waiting for either the rope to be pulled fully down by your climbing partner or whilst your climbing partner is descending so no actual time is lost.
Even if not in fully alpine multi pitch descent mode I will attach a back up out of habit & also just so that I feel more comfortably just in case the unexpected happens.

I don't do big abseils (25m max and that's rare), but I back up:

Prussik
Knot in end of rope
Anchor back ups
Helmet

I could realistically walk around after setting up the TR, but I really enjoy abseiling!

In reply to muppetfilter:


A genuine question, but is losing control really a common cause of accidents?

As far as I understand it, there are basically 3 types of abseiling accident.

1. Failure of the anchors: (hard to completely eliminate, but can be mitigated against by backup for 1st climber etc)
2. Abseiling off the end of the ropes: (always use knots)
3. Failing to attach to the ropes correctly: (always weight rope before unclipping)

I am aware of many cases of each of these (and nearly died from the 3rd myself), but I've never heard of an accident from losing control of the ropes (not saying they don't happen of course).
I don't doubt that it is safer to use a prussic, but for me it falls into the category of risks that I just don't worry about , though I admit that I could be misleading myself in this regard.

In reply to ogreville:

I always use a French prussik. Honestly, I think I abseil faster with it there because it takes the heat and friction (instead of your hands) so, if time is the issue, I guess it actually saves time.

In reply to ogreville:

Yep, anything more than 10-15m and I'll use a prusik.

Frankly you'd be stupid not to. Many factors that could mess you up on an abseil are completely outside of your control so might as well do everything you can to make it safe.

In reply to ogreville:

Sometimes, not always. I certainly will if there is a possibility of having to sort out ropes as I go down.

In reply to nutme:


I very rarely do (either) unless there's a special risk, like it being loose, or very steep and not clear where the next anchor is. If there's a problem I wrap the rope round my leg.


I do always do this unless it's really very obvious that the ropes reach the ground.

In reply to MarkJH:


yes. Mine was and know a few other incidents. probably less talked about as they're often minor from just slipping a bit too far on the rope and catching yourself, burning hands or swinging into the rock as opposed to decking out.

In reply to ogreville:


Sometimes do, sometimes don't. Generally I back up when I think there's a fair chance I might get hit by something, swing, have to pass roofs/lips, am out of balance with a bag, the device/rope is slick or I'm planning to stop to do work. Otherwise I generally don't bother. Each to their own.
jk

In reply to GHawksworth:


OK, but it was asserted (I think) that it was a common cause of death whilst abseiling. I'm not convinced that this is true, or at least not to anywhere near the extent that abseiling off the ends of un-knotted ropes is (for example).

In reply to ogreville:

There are a few times when I don't knot the end of the ropes, eg when first down over terrain where the knot(s) could get caught off to one side which causes a lot of bother. I do keep a very close eye on the ropes below me though.

I always use a prussic, except on very short abs. I've not found any scenario when that causes extra problems, and it takes no time to do really. Can't see why people wouldn't, but then you won't often see me without a helmet either.

Martin

In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

Did about 50% the time until the occasion I swung and let go of the rope to stop me slamming into a rock - luckily was one of the times I had a prusik on

Now do about 99% (my kind of odds)

In reply to ogreville:


Probably most of the time I don't bother. But if in an area with loose rock on the take-off and company or out exploring on my own then I do tend to use a french prusik on my leg loop.

And don't forget to factor 'helmet' into your decision making process! That may be more critical than an abseil 'back-up' of whatever form.

In reply to everybody on the thread:
PRUSIK. It's a PRUSIK.

Prussic is a form of acid. You don't want to put that on your abseil rope.

In reply to ogreville:

I do.... prusik... or on longer stuff abroad shunt up high on a sling.

In reply to MarkJH:


The commonest cause of fatality whilst abseiling is anchor failure. End of. There's no come-back. Many good climbers have gone that way (Laurie Holliwell). If you are going to die abseiling that is the likeliest cause.

Abseiling off the ends of unknotted ropes has bagged a few more. But not many.

Freakish detachment has got a few. (Tom Patey) But not many.

In reply to ogreville:

Seems like you got a pretty conclusive response there. You mentioned awkwardness of using a backup. What's your normal system? Mine varies:

Multipitch - I'll have the belay plate extended on a knotted sling, end of sling clipped into the anchor, ready for multpitch abseiling.

Singlepitch - Belay plate on harness loop, with prussic from leg loop to below the belay plate.

I don't find either of these a hassle, but the extended option is easier for me. How would you do it, and what do you find to be a faff about it?

In reply to Andy Say:

You have missed the abseiling off the tail. I don't know how many fatalities its actually caused but I've known a couple of people nearly do it.

In reply to ogreville:

prussik from the leg loop for a quick backup on short abseils or just walking off steep ground. full pfaff extended sling jobbie for longer more serious abseils.

there really is no excuse for not doing it in my opinion. its just so so very quick and easy to do. if you trip and loose your balance and your hand comes off the rope you are quite literally f*cked. happens very easily. I know it has for me several times and ive only managed to grab the rope again through pure luck.

In reply to NottsRich:
Sounds exactly like my system.

Ultimately, any sensible arrangement works - whatever is comfortable and balanced. AS LONG AS the prusik is kept well away from the belay-device, that is.

General point of advice: DON'T let a prusik feed into a belay-device. Ever. At best, it will jam and that will lead to Fun: an impromptu self-rescue practise. At worst, the device could open the prusik and that may lead to rapid and uncontrolled acceleration towards the deck.

EDIT: Nobody has mentioned inversion. Inverting on an abseil is quite possible if you're abseiling with a pack on (better to suspend that between your legs, from a sling, but some people don't do this...) and inverting WITHOUT a prusik can also lead to a rapid descent.

In reply to ogreville:
I know someone who had a nasty accident when one of their two ab points failed. They didn't hit the ground but had really bad rope burns trying to regain control.
Ironically it was on Controlled Burning on Lundy. Now gone. A simple prussik knot whould have saved his hands.

In reply to ogreville:

I think I've backed-up only once when abseiling off a multi-pitch, not that I've done that many. Every other time I've walked off or it's been single pitch routes.

In reply to nutme:


Whilst I agree abseiling of the ends of the ropes is alarmingly common, there have been occasions when I have not put knots in the end of the ropes as I thought it was safer without them. On alpine routes, on mixed ground with wind a jammed rope could be disastrous. I think it's far better to consciously assess the risks of every situation (which will *usually* include a prussik and knots in the ends) rather than use a blanket approach without engaging brain.

In reply to ogreville:

Always on multi pitch & Alpine Knot end of rope/ropes
Never on single pitch

In reply to ogreville:

Yes I backup abseils.

In reply to MarkJH:

Interesting question. Could it be that cases of loss of control are rare because the majority of people do use a backup?

I personally always use one.

In reply to ogreville:
I do a fair bit of multi- pitch and always use a prussik back up, also do it on single pitch where it's arguably not quite as necessary but I like to make sure it's habitual behaviour for me. I have my abseil device on a sling extended from the belay loop and the prussik attached to my harness leg loop.

In reply to Rob Morgan:


It is possible. That said, it is relatively recently (last 20 years maybe?) that it became common practice and I certainly don't recall hearing about many accidents of that sort before. Maybe we just didn't hear about accidents in the kind of detail that we do now.

My suspicion is still that it is a pretty small risk for an experienced climber, which is not to say, of course, that it isn't best practice to use one.

I guess I just never got into the habit of doing it and feel quite happy without, but maybe I'll make an effort to try again after reading some of the contributions to this thread...

In reply to ogreville:

Last weekend my prussik jammed after I went over a roof, leaving me stuck with my partner at the top, and my feet a few feet off the floor, in space., on an otherwise deserted mountain crag. It was difficult to extricate myself as i only had the gear I had stripped from the pitch and no spare prussik ......the learning for me was to carry a second prussik in case this ever happens again.

In reply to ogreville:

Always

In reply to ogreville: I can't see a reason not too. Only one thing needs to happen and you're in a bunch of trouble.

It might well be the case that the BMC don't qualify a prussik as a backup, but it seems to work for most

In reply to ogreville:

Yup, always use my prusik - why wouldn't you, it's a few extra seconds and saves time if you get tangled ropes or need hands free to clean stuck gear etc..

In reply to NottsRich:




I always use my cows tails for the belay plate, having it extended out seems a lot more natural and makes the prusik from the leg loops work well.

In reply to ogreville:

There really is no excuse not to backup when abseiling in my honest opinion. I've read enough horror stories of people dying for the most ridiculous reasons. Extending your belay device a little and making sure that you don't have too many wraps of cord on the rope is fine. It takes about 30 seconds to set up, what's that compared to the value of your life? :s

Bearing in mind that having a rock smaller than your fist hitting you on the head could be enough to make you momentarily let go of the rope, there isn't much stopping you zooming towards the ground.

In reply to jsmcfarland:
"Rant not aimed at you"
I'd wager that, a rock just smaller than your fist would likely kill you outright, and a 1inch pebble would make you drop the rope momentarily.

Think about getting finger skin caught in the belay device, you think it'll never happen to you-that you can handle it! (you'll just sit there calmly whilst your hand is being eaten, and tear your flesh out of the atc.) And then it happens and you can't handle it.
Or imagine a splinter of slate come skipping down the slab and jump in your eye.
These are rare occurances sure, but so are stories of people dying from not having a back up, yet they're still dead.

I offered free lengths of new cord a while back, you know how many people asked for some. 3 people, of which not a single one said thank you, or acknowledged receipt.

In hind sight, people are idiots. I couldn't care if people don't backup, So long as my partner and I do.

In reply to ogreville:

OK, it appears I am the exception (although not in the circles I move in) - Point taken.
I will endeavour to always back in the future.

But why do I always see picture/videos of people abing without a backup? Am I imagining it?

In reply to ogreville:

Always, theres two situations when I'm abseiling. 1) Multipitch descent/bail in which I'm going to have to stop on the rope to get established at the next anchor 2) retreiving a stuck peice of gear on a single pitch crag which I'll have to hang on the rope to do.

Both require me to stop so I might aswell have it ready to go and the added security it offers.

The prussik is also really usefull for taking the weight off the rope while your attaching your belay device.

In reply to /tmp:

The point about taking the weight off the rope while attaching a descending device is an excellent one. It's so easy to fumble putting two ropes through tiny slots when tired and cold, which often seems to occur while descending after a long climb.

In reply to ogreville:

I think the issue is at least a little bit more subtle than the arguments sometimes suggest. Here are some considerations.

1. Is the backup actually going to work? I see a certain number tied loosely enough to make me wonder whether they will really grab in an emergency. But more treacherous is the method of putting the autoblock on a leg loop and the device on the harness belay loop. There are two possible problems with this.

(a) If the leg loop is a buckle leg loop, it is easy to put the autoblock on in a way that will pull open the buckle, opening the leg loop and disconnecting the autoblock sling.

(b) More insidious is the spacing between the autoblock and the rap device when the autoblock has locked. Typically, there is very little space. In such cases, raising the leg whose leg loop is the autoblock attachment will release the autoblock. In almost all cases, if the rappeller inverts, an autoblock set up on the leg loop will collide with the device and release.

If you are doing any of these things, you are far from reliably protected, but are likely to act as if your backup functional. There has been at least one fatality in the US because of this.

The well-known but not universally-adopted solution is to extend the rap device to chest or head level and put the autoblock on the harness belay loop. Assuming the knot isn't too loose, this method is far more robust.

2. Okay, you have a backup system that will actually work if you suddenly and unexpectedly let go. There are various ways this might happen. Some of them are the result of inexperience and/or improper training, paradoxically reinforced by the notion that it is ok to drop the brake strand because the backup is there. But it is also possible that a falling rock will deliver just the right blow to make you let go. I haven't heard of this, but it is conceivable. The most likely reason for dropping the brake strand, at least for an experienced climber, is loss of consciousness. Assuming this happens, you now have an unconscious rappeller fixed to the ropes midway down the rappel. If they don't regain consciousness very quickly and continue their descent, the party is faced with a complicated, time-consuming, and possibly dangerous rescue scenario, and the unconscious rappeller is in danger from suspension trauma.

3. When all these considerations are taken into account, I think the most rational policy is for the first person down the rappel to use a properly-configured autoblock backup, but for everyone after the first down to omit the backup and instead be protected from below with what the US climbers call a "fireman's belay." In case this term is not common in the UK, it refers to someone at the base of the rappel standing ready to apply traction to the rappel ropes in order to control the descent of the rappeller, independent of any action on the part of the rappeller.

In this system, the party still has to contend with the rescue of an unconscious rappeller for the first person down, but not after that. And in the case of the first person down, if circumstances actually make it seem as if they might be knocked out, it is arguably more sensible to lower them or have them rappel single-strand with a belay from the other strand rather than risk a situation in which they have to be rescued while hanging unconscious in mid-rappel.

The result of all this is a system in which not everyone uses a rappel backup but everyone is in fact backed up, while mitigating some of the most serious downsides to the more usual approach of autoblocks for all. A problem is that the system makes rappelling a team endeavor, and most people conceptualize it as an individual process.

4. Some people like an autoblock backup as a convenience more than as a safety measure. The autoblock allows the brake hand to be released to deal with tangles, take photos, and swat midges. I think this is a bad idea for two reasons.
(a) The leg-wrap is fast and more secure.
(b) Using backups this way undermines what should be a total commitment to never dropping the brake strand. We then hear of people dropping the brake strand and being "saved" by the backup, when in fact their training should have prevented them from ever releasing the brake hand as long as they were conscious.

5. This leaves people doing extensive amounts of hanging on rappel, say for equipping a sport route. In that case, specialized devices are a far better approach than an ATC and a prusik.

6. It might be worth ending by mentioning the myth that a rappel backup might prevent a climber from rappelling of the ends of the ropes (if there are no knots). In order for the backup to work, it has to be released. Tests have shown that people cannot do this, even under test conditions when they are belayed and know they are going to go off the ends of the ropes.

In reply:

I never used to use prusiks,even on long Alpine decents, but always do now on any ab after experiencing the skirt of my jacket getting snarled up and jammed in a figure of eight.

In reply to rgold:

You've given us an awful lot to think about. Many thanks indeed.

Mick

In reply to GrahamD:


I thought that was what 'Abseiling off the ends of unknotted ropes has bagged a few more.' meant

In reply to rgold:

Good, thoughtful response. And you highlight the issue of people feeling 'safe' because they have some form of backup.

As I said above its my belief that the biggest cause of abseiling fatality is anchor failure. A prusik is a bit irrelevant then.

And your point 6 is spot on.

In reply to rgold: in reply, you raise a lot of arguments for not using a backup, but they seem to involve a lot creative thinking
1. Yes it probably will.
1a - what -iferry, especially as I don't have qr buckles. If it's on the inside of the leg loop no problem
1b. In this scenario how does it release a French, or normal prussik?
2. You are quite right , rescuing someone in the middle of the rope is a pain. If there was no backup they would now be at the end of the knotted rope, or will be seriously injured having dragged toa stop on a ledge, easy ground. If the rope was unknotted they may have gone off the ends and be dead. How can these be better scenarios?
4-. Backup plus leg wrap is obvious?
6. I have never heard of this myth. And it's not clear to me what the referred to test is testing - deliberately abseiling off the end of the rope?

In reply to Andy Say:



I should clarify that I'm thinking of a UK / Alpine context. I would guess on sport routes / routes with bolted / fixed abseil points the nature of accidents would be quite different.

In reply to ogreville:

Depends:
Solid rock, rope visibly reaches the ground (both strands if doubled) rope is free from potential tangles then probably not. If I am using a gri-gri definitely not. I also wouldn't knot the ends of the rope if it was down as it can cause more problems if you need to haul the rope up. If you do get stuck it's hardly a challenge to hold the rope with your leg.

For anything else I use a backup.

In reply to SenzuBean:


... minged out of my mind

Sounds like my kinda party!

In reply to ogreville:
It's takes a few seconds to set up, slightly longer than it takes to die.

(Assuming of course it's a long 'dieable' abb) a solid 25m abb off a fixed abb rope then perhaps not, but in the mountains yes, I'll always back up.

I switched over to the remote belay device method years ago when using back ups, I find the Prusic is far easier to control and it's attached to the belay loop rather than the leg loop

In reply to wbo:

2. The reason it's better is you can get them down to you, assess damage, keep them upright and avoiding potential trauma from hanging unconscious and otherwise reassure or help them out. Its quicker, simpler (keeps the focus on the job at hand), also allows you to have the next rap partly set up whilst controlling the descent.

In reply to ogreville:

Worth minding there is no such thing as a minor abseil accident - and no-one ever plans to have an accident.

I back-up as a matter of course, both anchors and using a prussik. To be sure to be sure.

In reply to george mc:
I can remember during the only abseil I've done (during my late teens) feeling a bit exposed with my anchors not being backed up and me not having a device back up.

In the future I'm always going to back up my anchors at least if not the device too.

In reply to wbo:


I didn't argue that backups shouldn't be used. I suggesting a more nuanced approach to thinking about the advantages and disadvantages. And which of my "creative" scenarios , at least one of which has resulted in a fatality, do you think are not possible or even likely?


I agree that a knot that has been set loosely in order not to make downward progress a struggle will "probably" still work. But there is a potential problem if people use a method that probably will work and act as if it definitely will work.


Fine. The misplacement of an autoblock on a buckled leg loop isn't a problem for you then. It isn't a problem for anyone if they know about it; I thought it worthwhile to mention since I've seen many people with the autoblock installed in a way that could release the buckle. If this installation kills you, referring to its mention as what-iffery will not have seemed useful.


Once the knot collides with the device, it releases. If this wasn't a property of the knot, you wouldn't be able to move on the rappel. The French autoblock might release more easily than a prusik.


I never said it was preferable to fall the length of the rope. Instead, I described scenarios that you are ignoring.


Obvious or not, I've never seen someone using an autoblock backup also use leg wraps.


Well I've heard the myth that a backup will save you from rapping off the rope ends, and more than once. Perhaps it is an American delusion. I have, however, taken some liberties with the test(s), originally done by French cavers, to see if a prussik mounted above the device could save a rappeller from going off the ends. Of course the real-world application would be accidentally going off the ends, but (also of course) the tests had the rappeller (belayed so as to prevent a catastrophe) deliberately going off the ends. Even though the subjects knew what was going to happen, they couldn't release the knot in order to get it to grab.

Because of the spacing, an autoblock above the device would seem to be a better bet for saving someone for going off the ends. I've used the fact that it doesn't work to conclude the below-device autoblock won't work either.

In reply to ogreville:

Only occasionally. Probably should more often. Likewise helmet, though I wear one more than occasionally.

In reply to rgold:

Your points seem pretty well thought out to me.

In reply to rgold:

That's a pretty good pair of posts. I've seen your scenario 1b. happen twice and also seen numerous slack auto blocs that didn't perform as expected, including on SPA and MIA Assessments.
For this reason I teach pretty much the system you recommend.
If I have to stop to deal with a tangle/stuck gear etc. I wrap around the leg to back up my auto bloc: The auto bloc backs up my hands or the wraps back up the auto bloc.

In reply to ogreville:
I don't bother with a prussic only if it's a relatively short and straightforward ab and there's no danger of something dropping on my head. Once you get the knack, it takes no time to set up and isn't faffy to use. Abseiling is the kind of thing where you only make a mistake once if you don't back up...

In reply to tmawer:

Or attach the prusik to your leg loop (but make sure it can't touch the belay device).

In reply to rgold:
Good ideas if there's a lot of stonefall. Otherwise I think it's overkill to do what you suggest. Especially as on a big ab descent the first person down has other stuff to do, such as feeding a strand through the ab point if there's free rope left, figuring out where the next ab station is, etc. Also, what if the person at the bottom gets hit and can't hold the rope any longer? The person descending would then have no back up unless they faff around with adding a prusik whilst on the rope.

I agree a prusik is not a failsafe and you need to remain in control. If sorting out tangles / gear, I often add a few loops of rope round the leg.

In reply to ogreville:

Given that it takes only 5-10 secs to spin a prusik round a rope, it is a no brainer. Having seen rocks, gear, full metal sigg bottles, ropes, sheep... Come down crags with no warning, attaching a prussik is the simplest of accident prevention measures available.

In reply to rgold:

the team work example is interesting but your version still has potential for a 'scenario' to arise. If 1st person down with backup gets hit goes unconscious you are into a 'situation'. If the first person abs on (what i term an SPA style ab) on a single line with the other rope as a backup (ropes tied together but clipped to belay independently eg clove & munter hitches on lockers) then if they did get into issues they can be lowered down (no autoblock to stop them). Then unclip the clove hitches and proceed as before with fireman brake (hopefully not standing directly under them)

This is the system I think the Edwards proposed a while back. It certainly is a team approach and a different to each to their own.

In general I use an extended sling and french on belay loop, leg wrap to remove gear, photo etc

In reply to ogreville:

Does operating further from 'best' practice manifest in offest of E and tech grades ??

It would be interesting to know how the respondants choice correlates with leading style eg. for those who always make a prussik back-up - is this evenly spread through folk who seldom / often take falls (ie. operate closer to limits).

In reply to muppetfilter:


OK, this all sounds very sensible. So, how well does this actually work when you are abseiling on doubled ropes. A quick google shows many pictures of how to tie the knot and of it being used - in every case except one on a single (usually 11mm) rope. In the real world, in almost every situation where I would be looking for a bit extra security, it will be 50m+ abseils on double 9mm ropes.

In reply to ogreville:

I do on all but the most straightforward and non-threatened abseils. It doesn't feel like a lot of extra effort.

As in all things I wouldn't be prescriptive about what others do - your abseil, your choice.

In reply to ogreville:


I've always worried about abseiling at Caley Crag as a Ryanair flight comes in too low to Leeds Bradford, exploding on the top of the crag and showering burning aviation fuel everywhere. So I ALWAYS use nylon prusik slings instead of dyneema as they melt at a higher temperature and I'll have a bit more time to work out what to do next.


We do 'tie ourselves in knots' sometimes, don't we. A realistic appraisal of the situation and care with what you decide to do tends to pay more dividends than 'if I do x I will be safe' in my opinion. There are times when I will use a back-up, there are times when I won't. But you'd better believe I obsess about what I'm abbing off.....

In reply to Andy Say:




Forgot my own freakish incident. Yonks ago using one of the old 'Pierre Allain descendeurs' (a bit like a toasting fork on steroids - http://www.mountain-heritage.org/item.php?ID=1163 ) my trendy silk scarf got caught in it. And as I went down the more it throttled me.

One of the few times in my life I've done a one arm pull-up.

In reply to ogreville:
Yes with out fail, it saved my life along with a knot at the end of the rope

In reply to Andy Say:


Personally, I think this makes the most sense, but I have no issue with people who either always or never use backups. I think it is a personal choice based on philosophical and psychological approaches to risk, as well as training and experience, and as such fits into the general category of de gustibus non disputandum.

Although I've been accused above of "what-iffery"---as if this isn't the central ingredient in all climbing safety considerations---I do think that climbing safety procedures are sometimes influenced by a distorted sense of threat. Which is to say that we may be assiduously guarding against very low-probability events while paying less attention to much more likely dangers, and the rappel backup seems like a possible example of this. (Mind you, I am not using this claim as a reason to chose or reject any particular safety protocol, as any threat neutralized is a good thing.)

Although people have said otherwise above, I believe that loss of control of a rappel is an exceptionally unusual event. I'm not sure exactly when rappel backups became fashionable (cavers were way ahead of climbers in adopting them), but I think for climbers it wasn't until the 1990's. Before that time, almost no one had backups. I have approximately 30 years of climbing experience during the no-backup period and have no memory of hearing about loss of rappel control as a significant issue, and a perusal of the AAC's Accidents in North American Mountaineering confirms this. I mention this because if it is true nowadays true that loss of control is very rare, people will say that this is because rappel backups are more common and are "working."

In the spectrum of immediate accident causes in North America from 1951 to 2013, "rappel error or failure" constitutes 3.6% of the total, with "fall or slip on rock" accounting for 39% of the accidents. In these statistics, climbing up is ten times as dangerous as rappelling down. Many climbers will tell you that rappelling is the most dangerous thing they do, but this seems to involve a substantial misperception of the actual risks.

The AAC stats do not break down "rappel error or failure" into constituent causes. My sense of the current scene is that by far the biggest problem is rappelling off one or both ends of the rope, a problem that is solved by knotting the ends and is not neutralized by backups. So, for example, if you are installing autoblock backups and not knotting your rope ends, I think you are making a critical error in playing the odds.

Personally, I've never lost control of a rappel in 59 years of climbing and have never encountered anyone who has. But I think the probability of losing control has actually gone up over the years because of rope/device mismatches: people sometimes use devices that do not provide enough friction for the ropes they are using. Although the performance of any particular device/rope combination is easily tested in a safe environment, it isn't unusual to just assume the device/rope combination will supply enough friction for a controlled descent and then find out the hard way the assumption is wrong.

Human nature being what it is, simple pre-tests are probably not going to happen, even by people who always use a backup. So I think it valuable to be well-versed in a procedure for adding rappel friction after embarking on the rappel and already hanging in space. The best way I know to do this is to use an extension for the device (whether or not an autoblock is also installed). One can then put a carabiner at the extended device, a second carabiner at the harness belay loop, and run the brake strand from the device down through the lower carabiner, up to the higher carabiner, and back down to the brake hand. All of this is doable in mid-rappel, and the added friction is quite substantial.

On the subject of rappel backups and device performance, I think a word on assisted-locking devices is appropriate. I have read multiple claims that assisted-locking devices automatically back up rappels. This is an assumption that has to be tested in a safe environment with the rope and carabiner choices the climber will actually be using, because many if not all of the assisted lockers will slip in certain circumstances. When testing, it is important to have little or no rope weight hanging on the device, simulating performance at the end of the rappel, because some of these devices will lock at the top of a rappel but not at the bottom.

In reply to rgold:


Thanks a lot for your post and all the information, but I'm not sure your comment "climbing up is ten times as dangerous as rappelling down" is correct because 1. climbers spend much more time climbing than abseiling, and a comparison of 3.6% and 39% has to take this into account; and 2. it's likely that abseiling accidents are more often fatal/very serious than a "fall or slip on rock" - another factor to take into account.

Edit, spelling

In reply to Kaya:


That's an interesting response. How did having an abseil back-up AND knotted ends save your life?

In reply to abseil:


Yes, all true. My point was that we are spending a lot of time discussing protection for a very low-probability event while possibly not attending to bigger risks.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


Exactly the same as on a single, but make the prusik round both ropes. Essentially treat it as if it is one rope.

You need to know how many turns you should be making with YOUR prusik and YOUR rope, which you learn from practice, and that number may be different for your skinny doubles than it is for your single.

In reply to ogreville:
I would if I used a non-locking device. I use my MegaJul, which is not locking for me on a single half rope (8.5mm) but is for pretty much anything else (static 9mm, doubled 8.5mm ropes). I don't think of this as a 'guaranteed' lock - but then neither is a prussik (which do slip!). I will not let go of the brake rope at any time (unless I get knocked out or something, obviously). Same logic for a grigri (which is probably more trustworthy for its *** range of rope diameters).

That said, generally the problem with the MegaJul is trying to go, rather than worrying about stopping!

The problem with a Fireman's belay, which otherwise I quite like, is that generally the last place I want to be when someone is abseiling (and potentially knocking rocks down) is right below them... (and if I was doing something exciting and multipitch I would want to be organizing the next pitch anyway).

In reply to andrewmcleod:


I think if you extend out your belay device far enough (60cm works for me) then the prusik is very unlikely to slip. If it's too close then it will.

In reply to ogreville: .if I was thinking of places where I've seen people have close calls millstone is high on my list, having seen something the size of a house brick come down Bond Street scaring the heck out of leader and especially the second. So I wouldn't rate a single pitch at a busy crag as always so safe. And so I spend that ten seconds adding a backup most times.

What-iffery of my own.

In reply to ogreville:

I don't let go of the rope when abseiling, just like I don't let go of the rock when soloing. But shit can happen..........

In reply to Andy Say:


Not the same. The tail I'm talking about are the short lengths of rope left over from tying the ab ropes together.

In reply to Xharlie:


You can clip the bag's chest strap to the ab rope to help keep you sat upright but you're right, if it's heavy and you're going to struggle then slung under you is probably best. I did already list it as one of the things that makes me extra cautious.
jk

In reply to ogreville:

“It’s an easy mistake to make when the rope is not visible entirely from above,” Collins said. “If Mark had worn a helmet, tied a knot in the end of his rope, or used a prussik back-up, the situation may have been different.”

http://www.allgoodsides.com/mark-davis-dies-tragic-rappelling-accident-indi...

Terrible accident easily prevented by backing up... always back up people.

In reply to GHawksworth:


?! I'm doubtful that an ascender-hitch back-up would help in this case; but that what was needed were knots in the tails of the rope --and maybe prior that a good idea of where the center of the line was so that it was placed at the anchor point (then one presumes that flow of the double line through the rap device goes evenly per strands).

*kN*

In reply to rgold:

Yes, the AAC statisics on climbing accidents is a gold mine - and it is accessible for everyone to saviour. As numbers can be pretty dry, we are lucky that the climber and graph wizard, Steph Abegg has visialised the whole thing for us. Have a look at his website:
http://www.stephabegg.com/home/projects/accidentstats

In reply to jkarran:

When abseiling with a heavy bag I prefer an offset Y-sling. The abseil device at the top, me on the short arm and the bag on the long arm. Then the load of the bag is directly on the device.

In reply to ogreville:

Almost always. On occasion I've forgotten and felt very unsafe as a result.

In reply to ogreville:

I don't usually as I don't back myself when belaying and all abseiling is is self belaying. If there is a chance of slipping off the ends of the rope I'll tie knots in it, though that depends on whether I can see if it hits the ground or not. I do bell ring for anyone else coming down so they don't need to use one either.

In reply to ogreville:
I don't, and none of my regular partners do. On a big multi pitch ab I'll certainly knot the end of the rope, but otherwise I'll just be very careful ... and quick.

A significant near death experience was in the Avon Gorge when I nearly started to ab without in fact having clipped in. That was 45 years ago - I haven't done that since! (Obviously).

In reply to ogreville:

No back ups as such, but on big routes such as alpine & big wall, will often knot the end of the ropes when visibility is bad or there's considerable stonefall risk - always climb on double 9mm and use a spring loaded stitch plate.

If I'm abbing off an alpine route, it will usually be because weather and/or conditions have crapped out, so speed becomes the priority due to necessity.

In reply to jonnie3430:


Nice idea, but not quite right. Abseiling without a back-up is more like soloing - one error and you hit the ground. A belay, like a prussik loop, is a back-up.

In reply to jonnie3430:


Fine as long as the abseiler doesn't knock any stuff down in your direction, which of course no-one does ever...

(also I've not heard someone call what I would call a fireman's belay bell-ringing which for me is something different)

In reply to Wicamoi:


Aye, soloing on a footpath. What backups are there when you are lowering a climber? What if they kick something off?

In reply to andrewmcleod:


My partner's and I have a bit of respect for each other, so go to great lengths to avoid knocking stuff onto each other, it's a bit dangerous.

In reply to jonnie3430:



Yes, but a footpath on a cliff edge.

Agreed though, lowering off is often done without a back up ... and it would obviously be sensible to use a self-locking belay device. Which is why such devices are so common in sport climbing of course, where the time spent without a back up (ie falling/resting on rope) is so much greater than in trad climbing.

But I admit I don't use self-locking devices because I doubt they improve safety when belaying a trad lead.... and trying to arrange a prussik loop one-handed when holding a climber with the other prior to lowering them off would likely increase danger rather than reduce it.

But when abseiling, it is generally a simple and risk-free matter (apart from the additional time it takes) to loop a back-up prussik. That's why I do it. What you do is your business.

In reply to Wicamoi:

Not risk free, the two main mistakes people make and don't check is that there are enough turns that are tight enough to hold you, and it's short enough that it doesn't hit the belay plate, or something else and release.

The pain in the neck is when you have enough turns that are tight enough, abseiling becomes slower and more awkward because you have limited movement in the brake hand. When you have a long way to go it's a pain in the neck. Especially as you can't shake the rope out below you with the brake hand because it's locked to your hip.

If you can deal with the risk of lowering a climber without backup, why do you need to do it for yourself? If you want to stop and take your hands off, wrap the rope around your leg.

In reply to Andy Say:

If we're being pedantic, isn't it Prussik?

In reply to Rog Wilko:


No

In reply to ogreville:

Well I've been saved by my prusik, so that is one data point.

I stepped off the stance to rap down, but had forgotten to put my device on the rope. I has left hanging by my leg loop.

(I believe someone died on the Nose last year for much the same reason.)

In reply to jonnie3430:


Nobody does it deliberately! And yet it happens. On popular crags it is often not too much of a problem but on 'adventure' routes standing directly below someone who is abseiling it not somewhere I would want to be. No matter how careful you are, the rope can still knock stuff down.

In terms of why people don't backup a lower but do an abseil:
Lowering is done from a point of safety by someone who has nothing else to worry about - either the ground, or occasionally belayed to a stance but this is actually quite rare.
Abseiling is not done from a point of safety. It is done by someone simultaneously trying to find a line, walk down the rock, avoid pendulums and getting caught on overhangs, and is just generally more busy. Here a backup is sensible.

In reply to David Coley:

Playing devils advocate, you could argue that the extra tasks of putting on the backup distracted you from the main task at hand. KISS and all that. The less you have to do the less there is to go wrong.

In reply to jonnie3430:

Your argument now seems to me to amount to this: because you can't deploy an effective back-up in one fairly low risk situation you might as well not bother to deploy an effective back-up in another fairly low risk situation. While mine amounts to this: you might as well reduce your risk in all the situations that you reasonably can (excluding, obviously, those aspects where the risk is a great deal of the point, such as soloing). But we must each of us balance up our sense of hassle and our risk assessments, and what seems an effective and low-hassle back-up to me might seem like one not worth the bother to you - fine. We're both still here and both still climbing, so we can each justify our respective choices.

I only engaged in this well-worn discussion because I felt you chose a logically inaccurate idea to make your point in the context of general belaying (at 22.09 last night). Beginning to wish I hadn't bothered! We should, and of course will, both continue to endure abseiling in the manner that suits each of us best.

In reply to Wicamoi:

"endure abseiling" ?? It that a typo, or did you mean that? Not quite sure what you're getting at. It's all part of the mountain experience. Surely one does more than simply 'endure' ascending and descending mountains?

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I chose the word carefully - I do not much care for abseiling. I particularly dislike the moment of entrusting myself to the rope - guess that's why I feel the need of a back-up. It is certainly all part of the mountain experience, but so are midges and blisters.

In reply to ogreville:
extended belay plate and a leg loop prusik here, every time.

having witnessed people getting hair, fingers and in one extremely painful case a lady's b00b caught in the belay plate, it seemed a natural thing to do even before considering the more "normal" reasons already mentioned already.

In reply to Wicamoi:

Yes, it's scary – a lot of climbing mountains is. But (unlike midges and blisters) there's a positive side to it: done competently in a very exposed situation it can be thrilling as well as scary at the same time. Which just about sums up all trad climbing, doesn't it?

In reply to MarkJH:

Failing to attach to the ropes is eliminated by a prussic - prussic on first as it means you are safe and you can use it to pull up slack to thread to thread your abseil device, sorted. And yes there are accidents caused by people loosing control, but most people use prussic so they are rare.

In reply to andrewmcleod:


You don't need to stand directly below, you can be off to the side, most times you are attached to the next anchor so can't go anywhere anyway.


Until the climber loads the rope, off balances the belayer who swings into the rock, etc...


Again, debatable. You have to walk because you have put the Prusik on, without you have more control so you can take big leaps to clear overhangs, etc.

I think rgold is bang on the mark with his posts and is probably best practise at the moment, though I'll still skip the Prusik unless I'm teaching best practise.

And I absolutely detest abseiling, I think it's a horribly dangerous activity where 100 percent attention is required and even then it still goes wrong and needs to be fixed.

Really useful discussion would be on how to fix wrong abseils. I.e. you've pulled the ropes and one end gets stuck and won't come down.

Plan a, go to either side and hope that it frees.
Plan b, use the free end you have to lead back up to free it.
Plan c, get belayed off the free end and prusik back up, placing gear where you can.

I've done plan c a few times and even thinking about it gives me the heebie jeebies... I'd be a crap aid climber.

In reply to rallymania:


I think best practise is extended belay plate and prusik off belay loop. I haven't any books with me so can't confirm...

In reply to john arran:


I stand corrected. I didn't bother checking!

In reply to ogreville:

I back up every time, as long as i remember my Prussik.

Not too much extra faff and it gives me peace of mind in case of a slip. Also, If I'm abseiling it will usually be to remove stuck gear and it's useful to have two free hands.

In reply to jonnie3430:

I dislike the term best practice. What I do in one situation may not be the same in another but when I do use a prusik I clip it to the belay loop and extend the plate. I got into the habit many years ago when I had one of those BD Bod harnesses with plastic buckles on the leg and I did't trust those to bear any weight. The habit stuck because to be honest it just feels better. On long abseils, especially multiples I can't think of a good reason not to use one. I only knot the ropes when I can't see if the ends are touching the ground or a ledge because this in itself can cause problems.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:


I completely agree wrt knotting ends. However, there would only be no disadvantages in extending an abseil device if you habitually climb with a cow's tail or similar to use in extending it. If not it uses gear you may or may not have and it takes more time. While every situation and every individual is different I've never seen any reason or drawback personally to attaching the abseil device as normal and then, if the situation suggests that a prusik would be best, clipping it into my leg loop.

In reply to john arran:


Apparently the drawbacks of the leg loop is that it may not be designed for the load, if you lift the leg really high, the knot can hit the belay plate and release and you end up lowering your centre of gravity, making it more difficult to sit up, especially with a sack on, or even more likely to tip you back if unconscious.

My dear oh once chucked the rope into the TD gap with knots on each end. It was a 60 and the ab is about 12m. I didn't notice and pulled the rope until it stuck at the top and had to lead back up to sort it out. Knots when needed, if not, no knot!

In reply to jonnie3430:


Haha. The extra load of locking a plate can be achieved by holding the rope between a thumb and one finger, and surely must be measured in Newtons rather than the tens of KiloNewtons that harness leg loop material and buckles are usually able to cope with. I appreciate there may occasionally be some issues with direction of load causing buckles to loosen but I've never seen any risk of that with any harness I've ever worn, mainly because I don't like leg loop buckles - I stay the same size so have that size harness.


It really isn't hard to keep your legs in an appropriate position, and I always thought lowering your centre of gravity was the whole point of abseiling.

In reply to john arran:


It is if you are unconscious hanging upside down.... anyway, back to my design for a full face winter climbing helmet for ultimate comfort.

In reply to ogreville:

I assume this thread is a classic wind-up. Please guys, do whatever the hell you want if it makes you feel strong and free. If you're used to abseiling hands free on a pair of old bootlaces and that gives you joy, please don't let what I am about to say stop you.

On the other hand, if you are actually looking for advice on how to minimise the risk of dying while abseiling (a frequent occurrence), here is quite a good way:

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/Rappelling?ActivityName=Multi-pitch-climb...

Besides being relatively safe, this method is very practical for multiple abseils. With the long end of the sling you can secure yourself to the next abseil point when you reach it. With the prusik, you can take the weight off the rope while you install your belay device, and if you need to untangle the rope on the way down, which you nearly always have to do, stopping on the prusik leaves your hands free. The whole set-up takes seconds to rig.

If you don't have a proprietary lanyard like the one shown, you can extend your belay device with a knotted sling or a multichain (which I use). The whole point of the system is that it places the prusik below your belay device (which has proven to be safer) and allows you to clip it into your belay loop rather than your leg loop, which is more robust and avoids the risk of you getting flipped upside down (seen that happen). The belay device needs to be far enough way from the prusik that the latter does not jam in the former, but not so far away that you risk trapping it above you going over an edge.

Also if you don't know for sure that the rope will reach to the ground or the next abseil point, tie an overhand knot into each of the free rope ends (lost someone for want of that precaution).

I hope I haven't offended anyone with this. Other methods are available. Whatever you do, choose one that is recommended by professionals, perfect it and get it right every time.

In reply to john arran:
I've seen leg loop attached prusik loops fail twice. Both times when some one was leaning a long way over to reach something and took both hands off the system (a stuck piece of gear and the rest of the abseil rope in a tree). Equally there is a discussion on an Instructors' FB page at the moment which references several incidences of the sling extending a belay plate away from the belay loop coming in contact with belay loop attached prusik knots and causing sudden release (possibly the stitching on the sling?? Don't take that as gospel).
FWIW I don't feel either system is definitive but that, as usual, an awareness of the advantages and potential issues with the system of your choice are important.

In reply to jonnie3430:


I'm honestly not sure if you are saying this or not, but the issue is that if you lose control for whatever reason and lift your leg (such as if you've just been hit by a rock) the prusik hits the plate, the prusik releases, and you plummet to your untimely doom. Thus the prusik which you put on to protect against that situation fails to do so. This is of course assuming the prusik grips at all, which I have had them not do with shiny yet greasy 6mm cord...

Other concerns such as the prussik releasing quicklock leg buckles can be avoided with sensible placement.

I don't actually use a prusik, I just use the locking mode of my Megajul. You should see the Simple (non-locking) vs Stop (mostly locking) arguments in caving though! I have just bought a shiny Rig, rated for 10.5 to 11.5mm, and have yet to see how it does on shiny new 9mm rope... :P

Hold on tight!!!

In reply to AlH:

I'd be very interested in more information about the extension sling releasing the prusik knot. Any links or more details?

In reply to rgold:

Pm ing you

In reply to ogreville:

Yes, often back up abseils but not every time. If I'm not sure about where the next anchors are, if building the next anchors may take some time, if the rope has been thrown badly or is likely to need sorting on the descent, if I don't know the ropes have reached a ledge or the ground, if the abseil is likely to involve overhanging sections, if the ropes / abseiling device are especially slick, if there is loose rock around, if I'm tired would be typical examples. In these scenarios I'd usually extend the abseil device and use a back up autobloc attached usually to the leg loop of my harness. The second person abseiling is often set up ( stacked abseil ) before the first goes down so we can check each other and the first person at the bottom holds the rope to act as the second person's back up instead of the second person also using a prussik.
Not strictly a back up but on very windy days, on ground where ropes are easily snagged or on crags where there are others around I would usually abseil with the ropes carefully lap coiled and stored on a doubled sling hanging just beside and below me rather than throwing the ropes down. This can help alleviate a lot of problems.
Finally, especially on long routes or when tired, a well practiced buddy system is another form of 'back up'. For example; checking the belay device, checking that the autobloc knot used would actually hold, ensuring that if knots have been used on the end of the rope ( or formed by themselves ) one person pulls the rope whilst the other ensures the other end goes up smoothly with no snags or knots.

In reply to ogreville:

Backing up an abseil is a really good idea and once practiced takes only a few seconds to arrange. The additional safety it affords may stop you from dying earlier than expected!

Earlier this year I was reccying a canyon in Spain, never done the route before but had a good topo (or so I thought). We had 2 x 50m ropes with us. The 1st abseil was less than 20m so we used 1 rope for this, all good and everything seemed as it should. The 2nd abseil was only about 10m, so again we used 1 rope, off I went, shortly to be in a cirque with the rock about 3m away, I continued my descent, looking for the anchors, but none came! I was a little concerned at this time as by now the ends of rope were only about 5m away and dangling in space.

Having a working prussic on the rope was certainly a factor in allowing me to think more clearly whilst I worked out the most logical solution.
By later employing one of my spare prussic cords (always have a spare) I was able to continue my descent in safety having had the luxury of time to work out the best solution. We all walked away having enjoyed a fun, and rather exciting day.
Had there been no prussic back up already on my rope, my thinking may not have been quite so clear and the story different, who knows.
Always carry at least a couple of prussic cords, and use them when abseiling. Why wouldn't anyone.

In reply to rgold:

The firemans belay / holding the ends of the ropes whilst others belay. Played with this, and yes it works but like the rest I have seen it used badly and wouldn't give much for the degree of safety provided in many cases. Clearly needs the full attention of the person backing up - not always there. Consider a 40m abseil and the abseiler moving down reasonably fast. To progress the abseiler needs a certain amount of "slack". Said abseiler loses control, even if the person on the tail of the ropes spots this directly it can take a while to stop the abseiler, did they act in time? Have they hit a ledge or the ground? I have been told by colleagues who have tested this that it takes a fair of effort using this method to stop someone if it gets to a free fall situation on a long ab - stretch in the rope etc.

As for prusik back up. So easy to set up, so convenient in use to clear tangled ropes etc. Not a 100% certain in use but easy to add in additional back up if you do stop for some task. Depending on how you use it may be a little more or a little less certain. Always use it on multi pitch descents or when abing into sea cliffs.

In reply to uphillnow:

Yes, all true. Just as in other types of belaying, the belayer has to actually pay attention. Their failure to do so isn't a defect in the system though. At the abseiling end, there are many good reasons why the pace shouldn't be much more than a brisk walk, and the fact that the fireman's belay is in use would be another one.

As for the fireman's belay itself, I just leave the ropes in my abseil device after I arrive at the next stance. If something happens to the rappeller, I jump and take in (this can be done more than once). This is a lot better than just pulling with your hands. I've never had to do it in an situation with a real loss of control but it has been effective in practice scenarios.

Hopefully, the abseil anchor is not marginal, but if it is, the extra loads of a fireman's belay would be a bad idea.

In reply to Andy Say:


The most common cause of death in Elbe sandstone (as they have bullet proof ring anchors on most summits which eliminates one big risk factor), way ahead even of lead falls. Kills at least a couple of climbers each year, and injures quite a few more. I work with one of the former rising stars of the local climbing scene who is now severely disabled. A daily reminder that abseiling off the ends is not a good idea, so it is knots for me unless I can see both rope ends on the ground or there are special circumstances that would make knots even more dangerous (high winds, broken terrain, etc.). The other lesson is using a helmet!

CB

In reply to AlH:

I'd be interested to know more about this. Having trouble imagining how that could happen unless you do something odd with the loose end of the sling...

In reply to ogreville:

I do - every time.
As others have said, couple of seconds more

Once i lost my balance at the top of an abseil and fell backwards in a comedy - windmill arms type fashion.

Thank god i put the pursik on before stepping to the edge.

In reply to ogreville:

I'm gonna go against the grain here. For me putting a prussik loop on is more dangerous that not doing so.

My reasons are:
1 Focuses the mind - abseiling is inherently dangerous, having to hold the rope helps me to focus my mind on that and makes me treat abseiling with the respect it deserves. Putting safety back ups in can be counter productive if, as I think most people do, you come rely on them.
2 Prussiking often causes a jerky abseil. If the ab rope is on a sharp edge (easily done even when utmost care is taken) then this can create a saw like action against the rope. This happened to some friends of mine, and very nearly resulted in tragedy.
3 I feel more in control of the abseil without a prussik - a prussik loop restricts movement through the belay device.

These are just my personal musings, I'm not trying to discourage anyone who feels safer using a prussik, but I would encourage anyone who abseils to consider 1 and 2.

In reply to willjones:

I would add: less clutter. Less clutter around the point of attachment has definately got to be safer.

In reply to willjones:


Agree with you. It restricts the angles that you can use to feed rope through the device, making it harder to control.

In reply to jonnie3430:

I never got on with the prussik in the leg loop, it just feels awkward to me but I find that if I extend the belay device using a sling and clip the prussik into the belay loop I have more control and nothing seems to get in the way. During an epic on the Eiger a friend of mine was knocked off and knocked out during one of our abseils in a hail of snow and stones, the prussik saved him.

Al

In reply to GridNorth:

At the time of your epic ( early 80's ? ) you must have been quite avant garde to be using prussik back ups.

IIRC a few climbers experimented with them but usually only knotted the rope ends as appropriate.

They only became popular when the leg loop/ french prussik system became better known, ( early 90's ? )

or maybe we were just a bit slow up North

In reply to GridNorth:

Abseiling in a hail of snow and stones is exactly when I would consider using a prusik.

In reply to Rick Graham:

It was 1989/1990 but I'm sure I was using prussiks on abseils long before that.

Al

In reply to ogreville:
What diameter cord do people make their Prusik loops from?

Back in the 70's and 80's I used 4mm cord which really cinched tight on single 9mm ropes. Being crap back then (nothing has changed) I did quite a bit of prusiking when I could not follow a pitch or when I was hanging on a rope taking photos. Everyone seems to use 6mm cord these days - I tried that and found it much less secure as the knot did not tighten up so easily, the cord being thicker and stiffer.

I currently use some very supple 5mm which works OK, but I did not trust 6mm to grip like my old ones used to BITD.

4mm cord is generally rated at over 300kg so I've always been happy hanging from it, and when used as an abseil back up it's not holding your full body weight anyway.

In reply to JamieAyres:

I have used 4mm but TBH there is little spare strength or wear if it starts slipping, especially if there is any shock load.

I use 6mm now and increase the wraps if necessary for conditions ( wet frozen stiff ropes, heavy climber etc )

Edit. A soft 6mm is generally accepted to be the best compromise for grip,strength and durability IMHO

In reply to Rick Graham:

but wouldn't be very good on a 7-8 mm rope. For this I use 5mm prusiks

In reply to willjones:

Hmmmm.......so I assume you don't wear a seatbelt as you drive more safely without one? So other drivers/stone or icefall/stuff out of your control happens, are somehow effected by your focus? Putting a big spike on your steering wheel would make you even safer? Same would go for belays, one good one only or do you back it up? Logic also suggests that one error and you live to tell the tale or one error and are you are dead is bad logic, unless you are perfect - and I had to climb through the remains of the last experienced person who made that mistake. I don't think prusics have ever caused an accident - step up to rope, put prussic on, test to see it works, sorted.
Its that old chestnut - 'I heard of someone who would have died if they were wearing a seatbelt'. I have never even heard of a rope being cut all the way through on abseiling - let alone this being caused by a prussic. I have had two very personal instances where people would have lived if they were using a prussic.

In reply to philhilo:

In your mind maybe. To my mind the fewer operations you make and the less 'clutter' there is about your point of attachment to the rope the safer you will be in that part of the exercise. So you balance the risk of overcomplicating the set up with the risk of losing control of a descent. That balance (for me) is not the same in all situations.

Unlike you I have never heard of anyone simply losing control of the abseil rope. Loads of other things like abseiling off the end of the rope or clipping onto the tail of rope or anchors failing, but never just losing control.

In reply to Rick Graham:





Early 90s sounds about right. I can't swear to it but IIRC it was included in Nigel Shepherd's Manual of Modern Rope Techniques which, I think, came out in '90.

In reply to GrahamD: and Philhilo

Two schools of thought, both valid.

No system is perfect unless you are also careful not to let something/anything go wrong.

In reply to ultrabumbly:

I haven't read the whole thread but my 2ps worth: i most Likely be dead if i didnt use a prussik, once abbing off dinas mot i stood on a mossy ledge which collapsed and i inverted and once abbing in the alps where i was hit by rockfall. they can be useful!

In reply to ogreville:

all this talk of no prussik to stop ropes cutting on edges, jagged abseils etc.. sounds like poor set up.

I always rig my rope where it won't rub and shouldn't snag when pulled through, so that's one problem that is easily solved. Not smooth; try using a prussic roughly two thirds the diameter of your climbing rope, it won't bite is so harsh and will have lots of surface area. 4mm is too thin IMHO. Always use a French prussic, by far the smoothest and by far the easiest to free under loads.

I have used one pretty much every time for over two decades, unless some else is already down holding the ropes. I've seen too much rock, ice, gear, drinks bottles, sheep come to crags to think I'm clever enough to chance it. Even in the alps when there is a need speed, it only takes 10 secs to stick one on, and then take it off. I'm not prepared to die for something so simple.

In reply to summo:
I've only ever cut through one rope over a sharp edge. It was one half of a thin, twin on a long abseil in the Alps in winter, the sharp edge was hidden by snow so I would not be quite so ready to dismiss this as easily solved by careful setting up. It's avoidable on Stanage but the Alps are a totally different "kettle of fish."

Al

In reply to ogreville:

Once had this conversation with a friend at the top before abbing. I always back up. He said just dead man's me at the bottom. I said na use a prussik. Just before I went over the edge slipped on mud and Moss and fell to the ground with my feet over the edge and hands out in front. Prussik saved my life.
If ever a moment to prove a point about a 20second thing to do that was that moment.
Sh*t me up though.

In reply to ogreville:
Are you being serious?

In reply to GridNorth:


I would agree, I was generalising on the UK, had a rope cut in half in the alps once, pulled the rope through after abing down, rocky comes flying down and hits the pile of rope on the ground. Added to more interesting abseils for the remainder of the decent, trying to find somewhere to put your feet on to take the weight off the device to move below the knot, whilst being still protect by a prussic and avoid a full by-passing a knot procedure every time.

In reply to willjones:



I think these are just a question of practice - once you've abseiled with a prusik a few times you should be able to do so just as smoothly as without.

In reply to payney1973:


Yeah, my original post was a legitimate question. I'd noticed a lot of people not backing up, especially on single pitch, and wondered what the general consensus was. Apparently it's a hot topic!

In reply to ogreville:

Haven't seen any convincing reasons for not using a prussik backup. It's so quick and easy to do, isn't it? - Especially when it's become a matter of habit. Some habits are good.

Plus, if you spot an abandoned wire on the way down you can free both hands to try and extract it. What's not to like?

In reply to Ratfeeder:

You may not be convinced, but I did try to present some potential issues that I suggested would be mitigated by using a fireman's belay for all but the first person down. The logic that argues for a prussik backup inevitably entails the scenario of an unconscious rappeller stuck on the rope and the rest of the party left with a potentially complex and dangerous and definitely time-consuming rescue attempt. Although we can't be certain about all the details, it seems that there has been a canyoneering tragedy in which the backup initially saved a rappeller, who subsequently died along with a rescuer because of the complexity of the type of rescue required. See http://ozultimate.com/canyoning/carra_beanga.htm for the details.

Your offhand comment about "what's not to like" illuminates another danger. There have been a number of documented cases in which the backup prusik is released by body motions that either bring it in contact with the abseil device or somehow pressure it with the sling extending the abseil device. Stretching to remove gear is one of the situations that has caused such releases, and there has been a fatality in the US because of this (personal communication by a witness to me; sorry there is no link). When you use the prusik backup as an everyday "third hand," you change its role from secondary backup to primary safety link, and that primary link has no backup and has been shown to be at least somewhat unreliable. Using leg wraps is called for, but often skipped. The net effect is adding a known unnecessary danger to the rappel. In my opinion, the prussik backup should not be used for ordinary "third-hand" tasks without a leg-wrap backup. But of course in that case the leg-wraps would have been sufficient all by themselves.

In reply to rgold:

Hi. I confess I missed your original comments - this is quite a long thread! You raise some issues here which evidently need to be considered. However:

1. A fireman's belay may be a good idea for all but first to go down, but that still leaves the question of what the first down should do. I'd say he/she is better off using a prussick backup than having no backup.

2. For the reasons you give it's probably a good idea to use a leg-wrap to back up a prussik when releasing the rope with both hands. But I wouldn't want to use a leg-wrap by itself, since straightening/movement of the leg can cause it to unravel. Hence, the prussick 'third hand' is still valuable.

So on balance I still think a prussick backup is sensible, but it's good to be aware of the potential hazards you've pointed out.

In reply to Ratfeeder:
I agree the first person down is still problematic, but the choice isn't simply between backup and no backup. Under normal non-threatening circumstances, I'd stick with the prusik backup in case something really unexpected happens. In challenging environments (eg rockfall, lightning), I'd consider whether it might be better to either lower the first person down (if, for example, the belay is sheltered from rockfall) or have the first person down rappel on a single strand and be belayed on the second strand.

The cure for leg-wrap unraveling is to either clip the hanging end of the abseil lines to (or even just through) a carabiner on the harness somewhere, or even more simply to just drop the abseil lines over the opposite shoulder from the leg wrap. The point is to either eliminate the effects of rope weight in pulling off the leg wraps, or else cause the rope weight to pull upwards rather than downwards and so keep the wraps in place. Either of these tactics makes the leg wrap about as secure and fool-proof as any mountaineering procedure can be.

In reply to ogreville:

Interesting that people feel a short ab is a safe ab, personally on a long free hanging ab I feel safer. If I let go and slide down the rope I'm not going to deck out. People don't die from falling through the air, they die from hitting the ground. Granted you could hit things on the way down but you've more chance of regaining control/coming up against a knot than you do on a 15m ab off a Gritstone edge.

In reply to ogreville:
Well heres my tuppence for what its worth!

1. You may feel you are in control but you cant control external factors!
2. It only takes 1 slip, 5ft or 20ft injuries could be fatal.
3. 'Train as you fight!' Rappeling is an important skill you shouldnt choose when and when not to use a safety procedure. We should all ask ourselves each time we climb 'would i do this if i were being assessed?'

I have read some of the answers above, many seem to say well sometimes i do and if factors change i don't?
Maybe its the soldier in me but safety practices should be a drill, they should be a drill because when you're tired and you've spent the last 2 years climbing on grit and you're now on a big multi pitch in Scotland your body and mind may just set to default you throw the ropes no knot, no prussik because ' IM IN CONTROL, its fine, i do this all the time!' End of the game!!
I hear 'yeah but what are the chances of that?'
Actually quite high and it happens more often than it should.

In reply to MarkJH:
If you forgot to knot the end of the ropes and you were using a prussik, the controlled method of descent would give you more chance of realising and rectifying than if you weren't using a prussik

In reply to Rog Wilko:
If we are being TRULY pedantic it is a 'french prusik' we are talking about (I assume!). Anyone using a standard prusik knot as a form of dead-man's handle on an abseil will not fare well.

Although as John Arran has pointed out we have to remember that so long as the prusik (of whatever form, prusik, french prusik, kleimheist) is below the belay device you don't actually hang from it - you are still hanging on the rope and the prusik is simply replacing the grip of the hand on the brake rope.

In reply to payney1973:

If you 'forget' to knot the end of the ropes when you needed to, and is obviously appropriate, e.g. on a big multi-pitch ab where you can't see the next anchor, then you are likely to have other problems as well, and having a backup prusik is likely to only fix the least of them.

In reply to payney1973:


I've read a theory related to pilot training, that states that when things start going wrong around you, people don't rise to the challenge, their response is similar to their lowest standard of training. Train lots with realistic scenarios, then when rocks are whizzing down past your ears as you ab off that alps route mid afternoon, you'll probably get your prussic on the right way, screwgate fastened, knot in the end of the rope etc... because the habit is engrained and becomes almost a subconscious event.

In reply to Andy Say:


Actually used to use a standard prussik above a stitch plate in the early 70's as a back up. It used to work surprisingly well. It might have helped that I could then do pull ups all day.

At the time, and now for that matter, never felt comfortable tying knots in the end and throwing them into the unknown to possibly catch out of reach. Clipping the rope ends to your harness and taking them down with you maintains as much control over the rope as possible and stops the possibility of sliding off the ends. ( Far quicker than carrying them down in a rope bag but this is the ideal if time permits. )

In reply to Rick Graham:


Even underground where there are usually no strong winds, trees etc.. you won't see a caver hurling their ropes off into the darkness over a blind edge, hoping for the best when they descend down them.

In reply to payney1973:




I'd like to see the stats on that. As far as I'm aware abseil accidents don't happen because people let go of the rope. Unless you have data that says otherwise ?

In reply to Andy Say:


I often use a standard prusik (two wrap rather than three), works fine. As with many others, I've had a few instances where a backup has saved me from nasty consequences.

For those suggesting it makes rescue harder, well yes it does but the chances of a slip where a backup helps are far higher than those of requiring rescue mid-abseil. And for those rare times where someone is injured mid-abseil, you've got to ponder the consequences without a backup too. I'd rather be incapacitated stuck mid-abseil than dead at the bottom personally.

In reply to Adam Long:


This is intreresting. Loads of people who do use back up seem to need it, but I've yet to see any definnitive report of anyone not using a backup having an accident because of it. Maybe people who use backups all the time are more prone to making errors ? (playing devils advocate)

In reply to GrahamD:

Well the other situation, ceteris paribus, possibly causes a first hand account to become unavailable.

In reply to ultrabumbly:

I don't think many people abseil alone, do they ?

In reply to GrahamD:


Todd Skinner?
Isn't this a classic case of what a backup is for. You do something wrong, stupid, unexpected, and you still have a backup.

In reply to summo:
Exactly, thats what i said, this sometimes i do and sometimes i dont has got epic written all over it! It has to be a drill that you do subconsciously!

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
Thats what i said basically or am i missing something

In reply to GrahamD:
Mate im not being specific and of course i dont have stats ive got better things to do, but the fact that one experienced climber dies from an accident that had he/she have done either fitting a prussik or tying a knot in the end both of which takes seconds is a statistic in itself that is too much, and were not talking about novices here.
PSB

On Saturday, March 12, Mark Davis died in a rappelling accident at Indian Creek, Utah. Davis was an experienced climber, over 25 years, with successful ascents in Patagonia and of El Capitan in Yosemite, among other places. He was 50 years old.
The rope ends did not have knots and it appears that Davis had rappelled off one side, one of the most common climbing accidents, even with experienced climbers.

“It’s an easy mistake to make when the rope is not visible entirely from above,” Collins said. “If Mark had worn a helmet, tied a knot in the end of his rope, or used a prussik back-up, the situation may have been different.”

In reply to David Coley:


As I understand it, the belay loop on his harness was frayed and broke while he was jumaring. I'm not sure a prusik would have made any difference, although backing up the belay loop by threading a sling through the harness might have, if that's what you meant.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

For some reason I had a brain fart, and thought he was abseiling not jugging. Sorry.

What I was trying to say was that it was an example of way accidents happen. An unexpected event. Many people think about what has happen most of the time, not the one in a thousand thing

In reply to payney1973:

Well, if you analyse that accident, only one of the 3 would have made a difference. A prusik won't save you if you ab off the end of the rope, really it won't - try it if you like. And a helmet won't help either. The only thing I can suggest is we all remain sh*t scared every time we ab, - as Royal Robbins said, it's having all your eggs in one basket - and check everything twice before getting anywhere near the edge. It's worked for me for 40+ years; I don't recognise these tales of 'slipping off the edge' or... or what? The probability of a rock falling on you - that you fail to avoid - being in the Goldilocks zone of big enough to stun, (despite wearing a helmet), but not large enough to knock your head off and not destructive enough to cut your ropes seems pretty small to me.

And backups are not a no-cost option. They take time to set up, it's something else to go wrong, they can engender a false sense of security - after all, if you don't remember to knot the end of a rope when it's appropriate, what's to say you didn't forget to clip the prusik as well?

But hey, each to their own.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:
For gods sake, you lot are completely missing the point lol.
My point was and i believe its the point many others have tried to make, im not talking about specifics.
But something as simple as tying knots in ropes or using a prussik takes seconds and as stated may have altered the outcome.
Why didnt he use a prussik? Why didnt he tie knots in the ropes.
My use of this particular event was to show that even an experienced climber can if you pay lip service to safety procedure can have an epic. 99 out of 100 times you'll get away with it, it only takes 1 time for it to go wrong.
If you use helmets, prussiks and tie knots in the ropes you vastly cut the chance of having an epic while climbing or abseiling.
We can split hairs all day long, fact is best practice is to use a prussik back up and tie knots in your ropes before throwing them.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:


+1. I hate abseiling (and we are not talking recreational abseils or rapping down mega protected descent routes) for the very reason that whilst you may have control of the rope in your hand you have relinquished all other control of your fate.

Of course, once I realise that the anchors haven't actually ripped I do quite enjoy it........

In reply to Rob Exile Ward: Well, if you analyse that accident, only one of the 3 would have made a difference. A prusik won't save you if you ab off the end of the rope, really it won't - try it if you like

???? The fact that you are on a prussik means that you cant just let the rope zip through your hand as some folk do, it is a controlled method of descent, in which case you would have more chance of realising you're ropes weren't at the bottom before hitting the ends, you then in extreme circumstances have the ability to let the pussik bite, take your hand off, tie knots in the end and ascend the rope.
I really am at complete odds that i am having to explain such a basic skill thats purpose is the climbers added safety, it takes seconds......seconds, try it!
If i saw a climbing partner miss basics like that id immediately think what other short cuts are they taking?
Your methods have obviously served you well and I hope they continue to do so but I have to show people i take climbing best practice and mitigate any chance of them having an accident to the lowest chance possible.
In my job invariably people that take the path of least resistance stand a greater chance of getting hurt or killed.
People don't use prussik back up because they're scared either they use them as an added safety measure that should the 1 in a million mistake or accident happen you have increased opportunity to maintain some control over the situation.
We all have our methods i suppose, climb safe mate!!

In reply to payney1973:

Getting away from an argument which by this point has been pretty clearly articulated on the various sides:

Davis's accident was caused by an uneven single rope. Either he mistook something for a middle mark that wasn't, or the rope somehow moved significantly after setting up the rappel. He would have been saved by knots in the ends of the rope. No one knows whether a helmet would have helped or not. A backup autoblock would have done nothing.

I've taken to tying knots in the rope ends, but not always. My local crag has trees that can be quite tall and grow on ledges and out from the cliff. It is impossible over time, not to throw rap lines into a tree. If the lines have knots, they can and do get caught in y-shaped branches. If the knot can't be pulled out, and this is not uncommon, the rappeller has to rappel below the tree and then either climb the tree or prusik up on the jammed knot. Either way, there are some dangers and massive amounts of lost time.

For situations like these, I forego knots. One scary epic was quite enough, thank you, and anyway i have perhaps 30 years of rappelling before any of these backups were even considered, and so am quite comfortable with the situation the way it used to be. But I do try to do other things that will minimize the chance of going off the ends.

1. I keep my middle marks in good condition. Beal makes a special paint, for example. With good middle marks, you won't get the rope uneven to begin with, and if the strands get uneven during set-up, you'll see the middle mark when you rappel past it and be warned.

2. I make a serious effort to watch the rope ends. Sounds obvious, but no one who is actually looking is going to go off the ends. When i look at other folks at the crag, I'm astonished to see how many seem to be looking up at where they've been or out at the scenery rather than down to where they are going. To improve downward viewing, I try as much as possible to rappel in a sideways posture, one leg lower than the other, rather than have both legs at the same level and the body facing the rock directly. The sideways position makes looking down at the rope ends more natural. You want to be turned toward the brake hand side.

3. When climbing with double ropes, I almost always use them both, even if the rappel can be done with a single rope. The advantage of doubles in this case is twofold:

(a) There is much more rope than necessary, so going off ends is almost impossible unless the ropes are incredibly uneven.

(b) It is impossible to begin with the ropes uneven, because the knot marks the middle of the total rope system, and it is extremely easy to spot any unevenness, because the knot has to move in the direction of the longer strand.

A minor time-saving advantage is that you don't have to pull half of your single rope through the rappel anchor when you are knotting double ropes for a rappel. It is true that you are dragging down a knot when you could have had none. I consider this trade-off worth it.

In reply to Mark Collins:


I saw somewhere about using a Ropeman Mk 2 as a back up, with it on a crab on the end of a sling above the belay device, and you hold it open while abseiling,

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Christ i must be unluckly (or crap) both incidents you discribe as very unlikely have happened to me (earlier in this thread)! Luckily I had a prussik on though which stopped me plumiting to my death.

In reply to Timmd:

Sounds ludicrously over-engineered for normal climbing situations. Probably a good idea for people doing extensive work on ab ropes - cleaning/bolting routes, photography etc.

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

+2, abseiling is the worst part of climbing for me, you trust the anchor and the rope, none of your skills will help you after you commit.

However, as for the helmet, up to a certain height, i.e for many single pitch abseils, head injuries are the main problem should anything go wrong: If you free fall a couple hundred of meters and splat to a paste a helmet won´t help, but if you fall 10 m you would have to be unlucky to be killed by internal injuries to the body, so wearing a helmet dramatically improves you chances of survival.

Similar for rocks. If you are on a big face where stuff comes from the top, the goldilocks zone is small. On abseils, it is much more likely that another party following close above, your partner, or even your own ropes knock something loose. Fall distance is much smaller, and the stunning but survivable fraction much larger.

CB