UKC

Hi all,

Me and a friend are planning to do some trad up in the peak soon, but we only have a set of 1-10 nuts between us. I'm looking for some routes that we could do in the E3 range (plus or minus 1 E grade), that are not too dangerous. Obviously, given the amount of quality rock in the area, it would be nice if there are some classic/high quality lines that fit the criteria. Thanks!

OK, as a fan of passive climbing, I will bite.

I always climb Chequers Buttress without cams but thats a bit easy for your list.

Wee Doris, Pickpocket, the E3 +4s in the stoney quarry might fit the bill. Cant remember using cams on them. Twikker?

you don't need a sensible trad rack (or any rack) for these: 

Great Slab (E3 5b)

Chalkstorm (E3 5c)

I had second thought about my post and logged back on to delete it but seeing a like am leaving it on. Just a bit worried I might get challenged to climb the routes cam free

Natural grit tends to favour cams, but you could try:

Chequers Crack (HVS 5c)

The Asp (E3 6a)

Synopsis (E2 5c)

Millstone is probably your best destination, though:

Great Portland Street (HVS 5b)

I seem to recall Billingsgate (E1 5b) was just nuts

Embankment 3 (E1 5b)

Regent Street (E2 5c)

And you won't need any nuts at all on Long John's Slab (E3 5c).

I would think limestone is better for this. Something like Last Testament (E3 5c) maybe? I'm sure I still placed a cam or two on it though. Limestone is certainly better for a strong gym climber trying to get outdoors too.

I would still probably start a bit lower than E3 personally.

My apologies if your profile and logbook isn't up to date, also for not answering the question.

However, if you are wanting to move from the wall to the trad crag (as suggested by your profile and lack of cams) and have only done a few easy solos at Winterbourne (in your log book) then E3 probably isn't the best grade to start at.  Maybe try something easier first.  If you can't afford cams then a set of hexs would cover wider cracks and there is plenty of ground to go at safely with these.  You'll probably wonder why you bothered with the hexs when you get some cams but they'll come back into use when you discover winter climbing.

Have fun.

I'm sure I remember placing a nice small friend (blue?) early on Billingsgate which was horizontal. Also sure I placed a cam high up  on Long John's Slab where there is ground fall potential, although it's admittedly easy.

Lime routes are a good shout. Although I don't think I've led any limestone E3s, they were all first ascended without cams and back in the 70s and 80s limestone was more popular because there were lots of nut placements compared to grit so they were safer. Chee Tor, High Tor and Stoney Middleton have lots of big classics at those grades.

Mind you, only one set of nuts would be pushing it on longer routes.

What happened to the Font trip?

I only seconded it a couple of years ago but made a mental note that it required a lot of small (read: brass) wires and also a crucial small cam in a little letterbox low down, before you enter the groove proper, which is probably the one you're referring to. I think it would be a bit of a frightener with just a standard set of wires, though I'm sure someone will tell me they did it with a bomber moac and 2 homemade hexes back in the day. 

Windhover (E2 5c) would be alright I think, as it's mostly wires and pegs and comparatively easy after the first bit. 

Archangel (E3). You only need one large nut.

There are very few E3's I would venture onto with one set of nuts 1 to 10.  Having only that as a rack suggests to me that you are a novice trad climber and you may want to set your sights far lower or you will be in for a bit of a rude awakening.

Archangel doesn't need cams

Just seen your logbook and post history.

You're gonna die 😉

Why E3? Have you managed to reach that level with just 10 nuts so far? I'm intrigued about the reasoning behind the grade choice (given the lack of a logbook to explain it).

Climbing on just nuts .... Yeah, it can be done. You just might have to draw on your years of experience sometimes to find creative placements

Climbing on the peak on just nuts.... I guess. But you'd want to have a very good eye for gear.

Climbing in the peak on a single set of nuts with no doubles.... Hmm. That's going to be exciting. I probably wouldn't, but tastes vary.

Climbing E3 in the peak on a single set of nuts with no experience? What deacon said. 

I suspect he has looked at the grade conversion tables found in many of the guide books and assumed that because he climbs >6b he should be able to climb E3.  I've always been of the opinion that these grade comparison tables should carry some sort of hazard warning for trad novices.

Narw, they'll soon realise once they try and step off the ground 😅

Any route of the grade you like at Staden Quarry.

Re Billingsgate (E1 5b), would have been all small nuts when I did it (pre micro cams, or at least pre me having any). I don't remember any of it feeling particularly run out or bold but it was all small gear requiring care/experience to ensure good placements.

Of course those placements may have blown since then.

I had a hankering to see how well I could protect Hargreaves' Original (VS 4c) without any cams (cammed hexs, etc), doubt I'll ever do it now unless a renaissance occurs.

When I did Hargreaves Original it was essentially a solo and graded Severe, if I recall, which has always seemed a bit odd.

I suspect you are right. The sport grade conversion tables are bs for most trad onsight grades below mid extreme. For safe routes quite a few HVS onsight climbs will feel like a F6b redpoint yet several tables laughably place F6b at safe E2 onsight. At the cautious end I know regular F7a redpointers who will only onsight VS at a maximum. Maybe this thread will incentivise tables to be improved or be clearer the trad grade equivalent is currently more like a tr grade.

PS. Hargreaves was last a Severe in the '51 guide (HS in '64 and VS from '76). Blame the past guidebook editors for the fact that as routes got safer and adjectivally easier the grades increased. To be fair, post war climbers were amazing on balance routes.

Hargreaves Original is very safe with surprisingly big hexes, once established on the slab proper...

Agree about Billingsgate, a fine route but small nuts.

What proportion of current VS leaders do you think know how to get a hex to 'cam'?

probably more VS leaders than E-grade leaders can these days

Suspense E2 5C at Lawrencefield is nuts only from memory.

Going from indoor style climbing to gritsone crack is also a huge leap and a much bigger one than transitioning to a techy limestone route.  I hope the OP is getting the message.

Not in my memory. I had at least one cam in there not far from the peg. Also pretty sure I used more than one #3 walnut, so our protagonist would be screwed anyway.

I only used small WC Rocks on it.

But that reminds me: the OP should add 'Billy Whiz' to his ticklist.

Mmm  Millstone Edge

Mmm Embankment 3 (E1 5b) !

S

I've done suspense quite a few times and think it would be pretty terrifying without a couple of cams in the break/peg scars on the arete plus with only 1 no 1 nut. Depends how bold your feeling! 

Perhaps I'm a big wuss but I'd also want double in larger nuts on billy whizz, I've no doubt you could do it on one set if you were very strong/bold but you'd have to be seriously tactical with what you placed where. 

I once saw a very strong climber cruise regent street with 2 nuts and the pegs, I'm not sure I would recommend it though!

I'm certain we didn't have any cams when we climbed almost everything at Millstone and Lawrencefield up to E4. (Late 80s)

E

Only one of each size?

I have had a lot of practice with you mainly using passive protection .

S

This says it all really......

I did the Wideboyz crack school twice but I haven't had much opportunities to put the skills into practice.

S

In the main I’ve led all my Peak routes on nuts. The only exception I can think of where I used more than 1 cam is Tippler direct and anything where a cam is regarded as vital, but can’t think of any in my palmares.I did start climbing before cams though.

I feel like we are getting into quite a lot of crossover from the other thread about nuts.

You old guys remember doing all these routes without cams because they didn't exist. You thought they were fine at the grade without cams because they were graded correctly then, without cams. These days, all the grades are softer because of cams, so saying "Billingsgate and Suspense are fine with just nuts" may cause problems. 

I've sent you an email. 👍🏻

These young whippersnappers with their nuts, totally unnecessary....

Would Time for Tea (E3 5c) not fit the classic E3 nuts only criteria as well?

You’ve highlighted the problem. In reality French 6b is about the level of most E2,s, UK 5B/C but as you know by far and away the main obstacle to leading trad. is in the head. I’ve had constant arguments over the years about trad. versus French grades, bearing in mind most E5,s fall into the French 6c/7a grade. I’ve heard ridiculous claims of 7b+ for Golden Mile. 20feet above an RP. with every move UK 5C/6A, don’t think so, but by contrast and in reality the consensus is that Masters Edge E7 really is f7b+, so some people, to coin a northern phrase are strong in,t arm, but weak in,t ‘ead when it comes to trad. leading. More practice and experience required. However as long as we all have fun at whatever level, that’s the beauty of climbing and a wonderful experience, irrespective of whatever grades.

I suspect 2 large ones will help a great deal

they will need to be different sizes though, for the OP  

Thanks, will check those out, just wondering what you mean by passive climbing?

Cheers

Ah yea, my profile isn't really up to date, didn't really consider that. I've climbed some more trad and a lot more outdoor, up to a few 7A boulders. However you're right in that it might be smarter to start lower to learn placing gear, as my trad ascents have only been solos up to E1. Thanks for the help!

Ended up going for just a week, as theres about a week of rain and didnt fancy waiting it all out in my tent. The 2 days climbing I did were great fun though, and I'm definitely gonna go back!! Sent some sick stuff and the people were super friendly like everyone was saying.

Haha yeah my logbook isn't up to date, totally get what you're saying. Don't really fancy getting into the rights and wrongs of taking risks here, but yeah you might be right

Haha nah I know how trad grades work (for the most part) and know the grades are different. Definitely an easy mistake to make for novices though!

Climbing using only passive pro, nuts, slings,  no cams. 

I have suggested having passive meets with a couple of climbing clubs, the uptake has been lukewarm.

Scoop Wall (E2 5c)

To explain further, using 'passive' protection as opposed to 'active'. Active protection 'engages' when it is loaded, either through having moving parts (e.g. cam lobes) or by the whole piece of gear twisting into place (e.g. tri-cams or hexes when placed actively). Tri-cams can be placed as active or passive protection, as can, I believe, some cams, though the latter are unlikely to be well seated in a crack like your wedge-shaped passive gear. 

Just go for the routes that were done, and regarded as adequately protected, before cams were invented.

Do you or your mate know how to build a belay? If not, make sure you include learning that into your plans for the trip. 

Are the two main categories in-direct and direct? In reach anchor points or out of reach anchor points? Single or double/half rope?

With Offwidths help, I built a direct belay using a BD ATC Guide.

Sav 

Day out at high tor with one set of wires and nothing else? Where do I sign up?

Tower Face Direct (E2 5b) is quality and don't think I placed a cam on it, definitely not for the crux at the very least

I don't remember what nuts I used, something medium large on the arete and then a couple on the wall plus the peg.  I didn't have any cams back then. I did have a few cross over wires so it could have been 2 x #3 rocks.

I can't think of much need for cams at Stoney. The biggest problem is running out of gear if you only got one set of nuts between you.

Staden Quarry has some decent nut protected routes in the E1-3 range (not necessarily 3 star though)

Bicycle Repair Man (E1 5b)

Charas (E1 5b)

Captain Reliable (E2 5c)

Liquid Courage Left-hand (E3 6a)

Cathy's Clown (E2 5c).

I have some cams you are welcome to borrow for the weekend, I'm not doing any trad at the moment. 

Just leave a deposit with me and return at the end of your trip?

Good point. Probably not. I had a set, mate had a set so a double set.

E

How about Heartless Hare at Froggatt, in its E3 version with the side runner in the route next door?

Will sell you tickets for a tenner, includes first dibs on my worldy possessions if i fall!

Really mate? Honestly would really appreciate that, depends what area you're at as I'm relying on mates with cars for lifts at the moment.

I'm south Sheffield, S8 

Just send me a DM

Even I've done that 😁

Ooh, I‘m putting it on my list then! 😊

Just looked back in my log - long time ago (37 years!) - did it ground up with one fall but I'd still pretty much got the sequence in my head from watching a couple of mates lead it the previous year (I only recently found out that one of them went onto "fame" by appearing in the Great British Bake-off a few years ago)

More like 47 years for me - but I floated up it...

Not enough to justify doing the E5 version, though!

I presume that was another one of your early repeats in the mid/late 70's. You had the big advantage of not being a mediocre punter 😁

Let me guess - signature bake: Slab Cake?

Maybe, I know he got star baker in bread week, exited in either quarter or semi-final.

Genuinely I reckon I did scoop wall onsight on one set of wires. My mate bought his grit rack to the crag with about 5qds(we managed to make some more out of random slings and screwgates he had) a set of wires and a load of cams. But I don't trust cams on limestone so I would have only placed wires, you can solo up to the first thread and space out the wires as it's protectable the whole way so I reckon you can do it on a single set.

May be quickdraws are allowed. 

Sounds like a nuts idea…

To be fair, there will be plenty of routes at E3 and a bit higher which will have been done before cams. The limestone ones might have had a few more pegs though. Whether doing these routes without cams is a good idea is a separate question.

We had cams in the 90s but I wouldn't usually have more than a handful on my harness, sometimes less on limestone.  On the other side I wouldn't consider starting up something on say Chee Tor without a double set of nuts and probably triples on small/mid (2-5).  

If you‘ve never used nuts or cams before, it’s probably a good idea first to spend an hour wandering along the base of the crag and trying out nut placements at ground level by clipping a sling and standing in it (make sure there’s no danger of smashing your chin on something if the pro rips though). Then I‘d start well below E3 to get used to what your head‘s going to be telling you when you’re on lead a couple of metres above whatever you‘ve placed. Have fun, but know what situations you could be getting into!

And two large nuts.

Funny to think, cams have been around coming up for 45 years.

I wonder what the oldest still working cam on a rack is - I haven't done any roped climbing for a few years but my rigid 1.5 & 3.5 Friends (in the cupboard) must be getting on for 40 (eek) - IIRC I got them when half sizes were newly out but can't remember exactly when that was.

I wonder if anyone has still got the original Friends in use (circlip type thing on the ends rather than nuts).

I have a rigid 2.5 WC Friend still on my rack and in regular use. I know it is exactly 31 years and 1 month old because I know exactly which birthday I got it for

Yes I've got a couple from 1989, still have the original sewn sling. Mrs Moore recently made me replace them with something new and flimsey-looking. Camelots, I think.

Back in the day we used to drill out the thread of engineering nuts (from nuts and bolts) and thread them with cord or rope. However, a few hexentrics aren't going to cost the earth so I'd invest in some of those (and a few more nuts).

Here’s a few you can safely protect with nuts only, though cams always make things easier. I’ve disregarded solos or extremely bold E3s. I may have used RPs but don’t recall any being essential.

You’d be advised to have, as a minimum, double Rocks 1-7 + 8-10 and be skilful at placing them. It’s essential to have good judgment about the quality of the placements, which generally comes with experience. If that isn’t the case, I’d start at VS and work along and up. Stanage is ideal for this.

As always, be cautious about the limits of your ability to protect things and back off and ab for gear if you feel out of your depth.

Stanage:

The Asp E3 6a

Nectar p1 E3 6b

Millstone:

Coventry Street  p1 high E3 6b

Time For Tea bold E3 5c

Savile Street high E3 6a

Lawrencefield:

Billy Whizz E2 5c

Boulevard low E3 6a 

Roaches:

Hunky Dory high E3 6a

Not sure of your experience, but climbing trad routes is a lot harder and much more dangerous than climbing walls. The grades indoors and outdoors will feel very different. 
if you don’t have much rad experience, you might be best considering climbing V Diffs so you can learn how to be safe without finding the climbing difficult before you push your physical grade.

If so, better to start easy and progress up as you feel comfortable, rather than bite off more than you can chew and get hurt.

Seems you are replying to yourself?!

S

According to the UKC logbook Coventry Street is E46b

Just consider it a PS. Don’t worry about it.

I understand that the bit that makes it E4 is on the second pitch

Hi Sav, as McHeath said ^^, it was easier to hit ‘reply’ to my own post than scroll up to reply to the OP.

Coventry Street p1 is one really hard move by good gear, so some people will have it at E3 6b, some will say it’s E4. There’s a peg that can be backed up with wires and/or a red cam below it, so most importantly for someone pushing their grade, it can be made safe with wires, which is why I included it.

E5 for the link, tough route.

No worries. Cool as baenz. 👍🏻

S

Hi Jonathan.

Looks and sounds interesting. 

S

Hi Michael.

I think you are right! 👍🏻 

Sav