UKC

In reply to Simon:

No one has ever claimed that this is "groundbreaking news". The news section would be extremely thin if all news had to be "groundbreaking".

To put this in context, have any British women (ie not Lisa Rands) on-sighted E6 - let alone E7 - on natural grit? Regardless of the style, grit E6/ E7 is still cutting edge in British women's climbing.

This not may rank among the most amazing things Lucy has achieved on rock, but it's still a great performance, and worthy of being featured on the news page.

In reply to AlisonC: Simon, read up on sophistry.

Alison,

If a woman on sights a grit E6 is still news then Emily Pankhurst should be spinning in her grave (as plenty already have).

This whole article is about Mick and Lucy selling advertising space and it does neither of them any favours.

In reply to Anonymous: Which natural grit E6s and E7s have been on-sighted by British woman climbers? (I am genuinely interested).

In reply to AlisonC:


Airle Anderson Did Masters Edge at Millstone (E7)

In reply to Simon:

Master's Edge is quarried.

In reply to Jamie B.: And I am pretty sure that Airlie's ascent was not on-sight.

In reply to Anonymous:

The term sophism originates from Greek sophistes, meaning "wise-ist", one who "does" wisdom, one who makes a business out of wisdom (sophós means "wise man").


done it...

;0)

Si

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: 'that we buy gear off.'

I'm not surprised your sense of news is so warped when your understanding of the english language is so poor.

Are you still in the uk Mick

In reply to AlisonC:


Does it matters if its Quarried or Natural grit?

si

In reply to tonanf:

rubish,i never climb to impress others.to me climbing is about pushing yourself.well thats to me anyway,anyone else wants to impress other people,let them get on with it

In reply to beastofackworth: So why lie about your 'grade'?

In reply to Anonymous: pretty serious claim you have made there,what have i lied about?lets see some evidence to back up your wild claims

In reply to Simon:


Some more than others Simon, and by extension we all read loads and loads of drivel which is why I thought it pretty churlish of you to start banging on about the time you wasted reading this article in such a high handed manner. Lets face it, you waste a lot of time on here so I would have thought something of interest about climbing would have been welcome or did it distract you from the real purpose of the site for some; social networking and self aggrandisement?

In reply to Simon:


Probably not but it is important whether it was on-sight or not but you seem to have conveniently neglected that part of Alison's comment.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

This thread really pisses me off. Last year I argued that we didn't need a women only forum because we're all climbers together. Well how wrong I was!
Am I seriously expected to be inspired by people who are taller, butcher and more full of testosterone than me? Be real, I don't have a hope of getting anywhere near people like that.
But when someone my own sex climbs something massively more difficult than I can ever hope for, yes I find that inspiring.
OK, so it's not newsworthy if you're male, 23 and six foot tall. Well, bully for you. It's newsworthy for me. Go and read another article, there are loads about guys climbing hard.

In reply to Anonymous:


Oh this old chesnut. Don't tell me there are hordes of women going around on-sighting grit E6s. These people are intensly private but you know about them because you are so well conected and part of the scene. We hear this all the time on this forum by people trying to 'big themselves up' in terms of who and what they know. Invariably these claims turn out to be bogus. Many female on-sights of gritstone E6? My arse, a handful if any.


Maybe so, afterall it's their job, its how they make (some of) their respective livings same as other journalists and athletes. Occupations no less worthy than most and hardly reason for criticsm and sniping. That said, what Lucy has done here is match the highest levels achieved by British women in terms of gritstone climbing in both headpointing and on-sighting. The former having only been done a couple of times by women before and only bettered, once, by a world renowned foreign climber.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:
i dont think the doubters' point is so much that it might not be thought of as newsworthy compared to male ascents as that it might not be newsworthy compared to lucy creamer's own previous ascents. i'm pretty sure she's onsighted a fair bunch of e7s.

In reply to people:

This thread is an embarassment. Cliche ridden and full of pontificating blowhards detracting from one person's success - regardless of how it may have been talked up for news value. I suggest you all take some time away from your computers and go climbing this weekend.

And Simon, since you're such an expert, I suggest you try to on site (sic) Janus. If nothing else it'll distract you from your frankly bizarre obsession with Gordon Brown and the toilet.

Lucy - good on you.

In reply to abarro81:

Boss Hogg E7 6c, Pembroke is her hardest onsight. Hardest sport onsight, 8a. Add the Brandler-Hasse into the mix too.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=459

In reply to Anonymous:

Totally agree. It is definately news, and a very normal style of ascent of an E6/7 as well. And the fact that it says who Lucy is sponsored by is completely irrelevant. Shame on all of you who are moaning.
Nice one Lucy, I suspect we won't hear much of you next achievements, which is a shame.

In reply to Simon:

Well Airlie's ascent of Masters Edge was not on-sight anyway, so it's a non-issue.

But for what it's worth, yes I do think it is relevant. If you read Lucy's blog, there are some interesting comments about why she has not on-sighted so hard on grit as on other rock-types.

I'm the same height as Lucy, and although I have never operated at the same rarified level, my experience on grit is similar. Although I started out mainly climbing on grit, I eventually hit a wall - it was clear that I was going to hurt myself if I carried on pushing my on-sight grades. I had a few near misses when gritstone routes that looked like they would suit me turned out to have an unexpected (and unprotected) reach. On other rock-types, including quarried grit, I was regularly on-sighting two grades higher than my "comfortable" natural grit on-sight standard.

Lucy and I can't be alone in this, since all (or almost all) the British female on-sight ascents of E6 and E7 have been done on other rock types.

And I notice that no one has yet answered my question whether any British woman has on-sighted E6 or E7 on natural grit...! Google doesn't come up with anything either. Do I take this to indicate that the answer is no? If people come on here criticising Lucy's choice of style, and claiming that there are lots of women out there quietly on-sighting E6 and E7 on natural grit, then they should have the decency to back up their assertions, rather than slagging off Lucy on the basis of rumour and innuendo.

If the climbers in question are really that shy of publicity, then you will note that my original question asked about routes NOT climbers.

Over to you...

In reply to AlisonC:

I think it's a sad day when height has to be brought into it too, it's a weak excuse when you look at many of the top climbers today, on any rock type.

Also, Alison, where is the 'slagging off' of Lucy? I think you'll find most people are saying "well done - but is it worth advertising?"

The issue is in the nature of the write up, had it been something like "Creamer ticks Janus" and then on into the finer details, then fine. However it is done in a different style altogther with a big emphasis on the headpoint tactic, the slightly warm conditions and an E7 grade which as far as I was aware went out of the window as soon as Johnny declared where he'd got the grade from!

This is a good ascent. It 'is' a newsworthy female ascent in the same way that a male headpoint of an E8 is. Lucy is a fantastic and devoted climber, well done to her.

In reply to andi turner:



That is exactly how it was reported with a personal insight from Lucy, the story of her ascent and her motivation.

And I can guarantee that the majority of readers appreciate that.

all along non grit climbers claim grit e7's as extended boulder probs.i think this helps to prove that hard grit routes are the toughest routes to tick.

if lucy cant onsight them they must be hard.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

If that's "exactly how it was reported", why did you feel the need to place that report under a headline of "Creamer starts to headpoint" then Mick?

Congratulations on generating a 100+ post thread off such a comparatively benign news story.

(And well done to Lucy Creamer).

In reply to andi turner:

Grit poses particular challenges to smaller climbers that given your Y chromosome, you may not be in a position to appreciate. Even short male climbers typically have considerably more reach than a climber of Lucy's size. I don't read Lucy's comments as making excuses but as a reasoned explanation of why *she* does not feel able to push her on-sighting as far on grit as on other rock-types.

If Lucy's analysis is incorrect, you might like to provide an alternative theory as to why women were regularly ***on-sighting*** E6 (and occasionally E7) on other rock-types for several years before the first *headpointed* ascent of an E6 on natural grit, which I believe was in around 2001.

In reply to Peter Walker:

Read the news report, that is exactly what she has started to do.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/



Surprised me as well. The issue of women and climbing is very much a hot topic, quite divisive as well looking at the replies above........no suprises there.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

It all comes down to the usual thing Mick - people like to do down the achievements of others (ref. the accusations of cowardice levelled at Dave M. because he did not feel justified in trying to lead Indian Face, or because he headpointed rather than worked the Birkett E8/9s).

And often they do so from a position of what appears to be either ignorance, or a deliberate disregard for the facts (ie, that as far as we here on UKC can determine, natural grit E6 has yet to see a British female on-sight, and the route in question appears not to have been on-sighted by anyone of either sex).

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

The news on Mick's site is AWESOME!!

First a headpont ascent of the 'unrepeated' Master's edge.....

Followed by a headpoint ascent of Janus......

I did NTBTA on Sunday can you post it in the news section for me, it was onsight after all!

In reply to Gorilla:

Cheers Gorilla. It isn't my site however.

Yes indeed we have a great diversity of news on the UKClimbing.com page.

Hence why it has gone from 30,000 page views a month a year ago to 100,000 views a month now.

September was a good month. 51 news items.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/news/older.html?month=09&year=2007

In reply to Gorilla:
If you're that unconvinced about the news stuff, clear off somewhere else frankly.

There were several points to the news story. One was Lucy choosing to headpoint (which is a clear change in her repertoire). Such a change by a major figure in the climbing world would be news in any case. Not end of the world stuff, perhaps, but news. News does not need to be earth shattering. Most is not.

It seems that the women on here feel that it is newsworthy, or many do, and it seems to be that in terms of women's climbs on Grit, Janus is seens as a challenge to the top climbers. Sometimes a route falls in short order to a climber because they're psyched. This may have accounted in part for her rapid dispatch of it.

I personally don't feel that I'm in a position to decide or pontificate on what style one of the top female climbers we have should choose to climb a harder route. She is almost certainly much more aware of the degree of challenge Janus made to her than we are. I can only admit to having no immediate intuition.

How many female onsight ascents has Janus had? Any? Second or third ascents of very hard routes often get noted, so what the deal here?

Unwittingly or otherwise, it seems you, Andi and others seem to be using the benchmark of the guys to measure the girls. Which, in my opinion, comes down to immature primate-like willy-waving.

As per other comments above, this thread is terribly embarrassing. Like Alison, it pisses me off.

In reply to gbuchanan:


Oh put down your flag, Your so far off the mark its untrue.

If u read my comment I was whinging about these ascents not being particularly newsworthy, including the first 'polish headpoint' of masters Edge, ..........by... did u read MALE climbers. Thats not saying that these aren't great ticks for the climbers concerned.

I may have a minority opinion on this, and don't mind being flamed for it, its only a bit of banter. But read posts properly and don't imply I'm sexist.

In reply to Gorilla:

There is another discussion going on here as well, and on other threads.

What exactly is trad climbing?

In reply to Gorilla:


Visits of the like of Houlding to Czech sandstone were widely reported. Here he says he ‘tried’ a 9b on the Saxon scale (about 15 grades easier than the hardest climbs in the area), and adds: ‘it was a lot harder than it should be . . . but it is quite specific climbing one has to get accustomed to it and be there with some local climber to give you beta.” http://www.czechclimbing.com/clanek.php?key=4158
Surprise, surprise, trad climbing depends on the area and it takes time to get used to it.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Any idea of a French (Sport) grade for Janus? I've checked the usual place - http://www.geocities.com/Yosemite/4755/climbing/gritlist/grit_e6.html - but nothing is suggested. I appreciate that many people don't like making the comparison - but, approximately, given that it is fairly well protected?

In reply to John Gillott:

According to my handy RockFax wall-chart hard E6/easy E7 is 7c/7c+.


Chris

In reply to Chris Craggs:

Ignore grade charts when converting E's to sport grades.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Thanks for the news Mick, is always interesting to read what our top climbers are doing. Lucy's blog was interesting reading why she chose this style and I would suggest those winging about it not being news or critiscing her style read it before commenting further.

I am also embarrassed that people have felt it necessary to dumb down her achievement, oh yes, you have also tried to congratulate her in the next line, but I think the inference was already made. Think quite a few people on here should be ashamed off some of the things they have posted. If you have serious problems in her style maybe you should discuss it with your mates (if you have any) rather than post it on a public forum.

From her blog she was obviously very happy with her ascent, but this has not been tainted by the posts on here.

In reply to Jon Redshaw:

I don't think you mean "dumb down".

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

why do you put them in your rockfax guides then?

In reply to beastofackworth:

Grades themselves are a rough guide to the difficulty of a route.

Although according to some grade debates we hear and read, some think they are precise and static. They aren't.

Grade comparison tables are an even rougher guide to translating grades.

In reply to seagull:

perhaps diminish.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com & Chris Craggs:

Sorry for any confusion - I meant an approx. grade for the specific route in the sense of what people think Janus is if they've been on it or heard about it. Sure, I've read the grade tables, which indicate somewhere between 7b+ and 7c+. I note btw that Lucy reckons sustained 6b rather than any 6c moves, or at least that's how I read what she's saying - she could mean sustained 6b except for the bits that are harder.

In reply to AlisonC:

I don't think a British woman has onsighted natural grit E6, or at least not publicly. I've never heard even a rumour of it (not that I would particularly anyway).

In fact I can't think of all that many natural grit E5 onsights by Brit women, unless you count The Knock. I'm sure here there are plenty of unsung ones, but I can't think of one I know of. Did you do it? Has, say, Heartless Hare had an onsight female ascent?

jcm

In reply to Alison Stockwell:
>This thread really pisses me off...
>But when someone my own sex climbs something massively more difficult than I can ever hope for, yes I find that inspiring.
>OK, so it's not newsworthy if you're male, 23 and six foot tall. Well, bully for you. It's newsworthy for me. Go and read another article, there are loads about guys climbing hard

I agree entirely. Hence quoting you in boldface. What a bunch of stupid dicks there are posting here. What complete stupid f*cking morons. Has it not entered your dim shallow little male brains, that just because it's not news to you, it may be news... worth reading news!... to some of us? F*ckwits.

In reply to gingerkate:
pmt?

In reply to Chris Craggs:
Firstly well done to lucy...

Chris: Those charts are utter rubbish.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

No, only on quarried grit.

In reply to Paul B:

They are nowt to do with me - the man asked a question and I gave him an answer and quoted my source.


Chris

PS - not sure about utter rubbish - they worked up to my one-time limit in the various disciplines E5 6b = 7a = 5.11d

In reply to Chris Craggs: Ok, just the top end then....

In reply to gingerkate:

Of course it's news and it's really inspiring, it's not the achievement it'sd the angle of the report that is the issue "Lucy takes up Headpointing" is a strange way to report her ascent, clearly to provoke a response. It got one.

In reply to andi turner:

No not clearly to provoke a response. Even with my experience of climbing websites that is always a hit and miss thing.

The title of the news report was inspired by what Lucy said to me.

"The last few weeks I've been really enjoying getting out on grit. For some reason a switch has gone off in my tiny brain that all these routes I've been saving for ground ups, ain't gonna happen. I've had too many accidents and scares on grit to risk life and limb in that way. So some may say toproping is not brill ethically but having always been a hard core onsighter, I have to say it's very relaxing and enjoyable!"

Clearly Lucy is starting to headpoint grit and this she says hence:

Lucy Creamer Starts to Headpoint

And her first success was Janus E7 6b

I have my own theory why there has been such a response and it is not one reason alone.

Mick

In reply to gingerkate:

In reply to gingerkate:

I'm a bloke, it's not my fault I was born a bloke. I'm 6' with long arms, that pisses of my mates. I'm not climbing with a woman at the mo, just as well or they'd be on my case as well. (wife's arthritis put paid to that, tho' she never complained about me being a bloke and tall)

Big reaches on any rock, never mind grit aren't my genders fault either.

Personally I get very miffed that women look better in thongs than men (Hubers aside - check that news item!)BUT I CAN GET OVER IT.

Yours in gender equal peace,

Steve

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: grades full stop are always going to be a compromise and a rough approximation based on who has done the climb in the past.what someone thinks is E7 6C another will thing E6 6b and another may think E8 7A.
end of the day good effort by lucy regardless what meathod she used to climb it

In reply to SteveSBlake and andi turner:
Yeah, sorry that I went off on one to that degree. I just get extremely cross with the (very few!) men who seem to think pissing on someone's bonfire because they're not climbing as hard as X (where X is generally male) is the right response to a brilliant achievement. I wouldn't be so cross about it if I didn't think it mattered ... if I thought such sneering was water off teh back of the female collective consciousness, I'd not be so fussed ... but I'm not so sure it is. Oh well.

What I should've said before:
Well done Lucy, you're inspirational.

In reply to gingerkate:

I think their point was at least as much that on this occasion LC was not climbing as hard as someone female, to wit LC herself on other occasions. They felt rightly or wrongly that this was not one of her finest moments in an otherwise extremely fine career (this last goes without saying let alone repeating every time one posts about very good climbers).

Not everything is about horrid men being nasty to poor defenceless women.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


So we only report people's ascents when they're the best they've ever done? Dave MacLeod is going to have to work hard from now on then.


I didn't dignify him with 'horrid', did I? Stupid was the word that felt right.

In reply to gingerkate:

>So we only report people's ascents when they're the best they've ever done?

Their point may have been a bad one, but it wasn't about the fact that men have climbed harder than this, as you suggested.

jcm

Congrats to Lucy!

Given the context, style and ascentionist, I believe that this article is defintely worthy of reporting in the News and hopefully provides inspiration for others. I would also add that, whilst onsight is clearly a more desirable ethic, it would be great if this allows Lucy to further push back the boundaries of female ascents on grit - it would be great to see her make headpoints of harder routes, as there are no/few british climbers operating at this level and a handful of ascents by foreign women (Lisa Rands, any others?).

The negativity on this thread is very regrettable and I hope that it does not detract from Lucy's experience.

As an aside, do we really need a string of posters commenting:
"News!!??"

on every item Mick posts? At best it's getting tiresome and at worst it can possibly undermine someone else's achievement? It's clear that some people disagree with Mick's style of reporting and what is newsworthy. However, I don't understand why they don't source their information from somewhere else or ignore the articles they have no interest in? Don't you have better things to do?

J

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Has the backlash against headpointing begun ?

It always seemed to me to be missing the point somehow.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

OK John, just some quotes from teh thread:

"I held Jon Barton's ropes on his headpoint ascent of Janus, donkey's years ago, it wasn't reported because it wasn't significant. Neither is this."

"It's a good, strong ascent of a hard grit route and a nice story but not something I would send off to a news forum."

"I agree with Andi - that a headpoint of Janus - rather than an on site, is not really groundbreaking news (sorry Lucy again)..."

"Did she onsight the washing up, the ironing and the cooking? If so why isn't this news Mick?"

And the putting them straight, courtesy of AlisonC:
"To put this in context, have any British women (ie not Lisa Rands) on-sighted E6 - let alone E7 - on natural grit? Regardless of the style, grit E6/ E7 is still cutting edge in British women's climbing."

And Tyler:
"...what Lucy has done here is match the highest levels achieved by British women in terms of gritstone climbing in both headpointing and on-sighting. The former having only been done a couple of times by women before and only bettered, once, by a world renowned foreign climber."

And an anonymous:
"And Simon, since you're such an expert, I suggest you try to on site (sic) Janus. If nothing else it'll distract you from your frankly bizarre obsession with Gordon Brown and the toilet."

In reply to orge: Agree totally. It must be horrible when the howitzer of negativity that is the UKC forums 'opinions' is pointed at you.

Well done Lucy, well put Ogre.

In reply to orge:


Oh I so agree. Every time I read a NEWS thread it has this little doomful Greek Chorus chanting, "this is not news".
Go away, Greek chorus! Go away, and if you're not interested in it, don't read it. Please?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:
just out of interest, did ukc report her onsights of stuff like boss hogg, ghost train and any other e7s she's onsighted? i can't remember anything but they might well have been before i read this site.

In reply to Niall Grimes:


People always focus on the negativity, it always overwhelms the positive comments.

Do a count Niall?

The positive comments outweigh the negative.

That would be the howitzer of positivity that is the UKC forums 'opinions.'

In reality it is a mix.

Further, most people who visit these forums (the forums are a part of UKClimbing.com) only read, they do not post. The ratio is about 10:1.

Mick

In reply to gingerkate:

None of those suggest that if Lucy had onsighted more E7s that would not have been news, despite the fact lots of unsung men do it all the time. I agree that Alison's point was a good one, and it's an interesting notion that women generally may find natural grit harder (or harder to onsight, anyway) than other rocktypes for physical reasons. (One I must say I have my doubts about, but that's another thread).

jcm

jcm

In reply to gingerkate:

I totally agree that 'that's not news' is boring and, far worse, plain wrong.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: just to add fuel to the fire-aint janus E6 6B anyway? :o/

In reply to abarro81:

May have been before my time. If I was doing the news then I would certainly have reported them.

I do tend to report most of Lucy's stuff because she is a great athlete and an excellent role model to all climbers.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com: Yes, mick. But a high-explosive shell has got an equal amount of positive ions and negative ions, but when one goes off at your feet it's hard to look on the bright side.

In reply to Niall Grimes:

I do find this whinging about negative comments on the forums a bit odd, though. I mean, LC's a professional sportsperson (I think anyway; if not I stand corrected). If you're making money out of having people look at you and what you do, you've got to accept there's going to be some adverse comment, haven't you? Once you go pro, it's no longer true that what you do is just up to you, surely? (If it ever was.)

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: Lucy is a person who after years and years of scraping a bare existence from climbing sponsorship has recently accepted a salaried job at the BMC. I am in awe of the determination that must be required to accept such a meagre recompense for performing at such a high standard for so many years.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

You are right John (I love saying that). But it still hurts.

In reply to Niall Grimes:

I never thought of it like that. Yes you are right Niall. Thank you for that. You are a lovely man.

In reply to John2:

Up to a point. On the other hand you have a wonderful lifestyle doing what you love, of course.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I didn't say "harder" (and neither does Lucy's blog). I dare say that lack of height is a positive advantage on some routes. But lack of reach adds an element of unpredictability that is much less of an issue on other rocktypes (the nature of the beast is that there are fewer intermediates than on, say, limestone).

In reply to johncoxmysteriously: I suppose you are right, John. But it's not like being Tiger Woods. Mick pointed out that I misrepresented the amount of negativity in the thread compared to the positivity. That's probably true, but I bet it's a million times truer if it's you they're talking about.

People are easily hurt. Not just people who send in their climbing achievements into websites, but everybody. And being analysed and questioned is very hurtful, even if a lot of it is supportive.

I think for a lot of people this is an anonymous way of passing the office-based day, but i bet if any of the people commenting on here were being discussed and analysed themselves, even if it was not all negative, then they wouldn't feel very comfortable.

I saw Katherine Schirrmacher yesterday, and she said that she wouldn't write an article again, after the thread that occurred on here about a piece she did about female climbers, a thread which in many ways reminded me of this one. Again, not all of it was negative by any means, but enough of it was. And I think that's a real shame.

John, all you are to me is a user name, like most people on here. UKC has no means of getting at you. But there must be people in the spotlight for whom getting a going over by a load of anonymous people, in front of thousands of others is painful. As to this being fair game if you have 'gone pro', i'm not sure the meagre income climbing gives anyone is carte blanche for any sort of criticism.

This is totally off the thread, and sorry. I'm not adding much to the debate, i just found myself reading the judgements (and in one case, the incredible arrogance) of the post, and feeling uncomfortable with it all.

In reply to Niall Grimes:


Funny I'm just about to ask Katherine if she will write an article for UKC on women and climbing.

Welcome to the real world - warts and all rather than the artificial world of print were the reader can't respond.

Power to us all.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:>

So are you Mick. A diamond

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:




Yeah, I don't have any warts, but if someone ever comes to paint my portrait, I'm going to tell them to put some on!

In reply to Niall Grimes:

There are a lot of selfish, miserable, grouchy scroats in the world - sad but true.

Chris


PS I know 'cos I used to teach most of them!

In reply to Niall Grimes:

You....in a while

http://www.fergusnoone.com/gifts/limited-edition2.jpg

In reply to Niall Grimes:

You've got a big one on your arse.

In reply to Chris Craggs: You taught them everything you knew Chris

In reply to andi turner: That's not a wart Andi, that's weakness leaving the body.

In reply to Niall Grimes:

I can imagine that on a No Fear poster, actually now I don't want to imagine it anymore.

In reply to Niall Grimes:

I taught them everything I knew and they still know BUGGER ALL!


Chris

In reply to Niall Grimes:

Where are the real BMC guidebook guys, the real movers and shakers?

Dave Simmonite and Simon Jacques.

In reply to AlisonC:

I think you're splitting hairs there! 'Adding an element of unpredictability' to onsighting DOES make it harder in my book. What's that old quote about soapstone adding to climbing 'the scintillating element of surprise'?

Niall, I am hurt. Surely you can't have forgotten our brief meeting at Fontainebleau?!? When you were with some impressive female climber IIRC, in fact I'm not sure it wasn't the same Lucy C.

You're right of course that being a climbing pro isn't the same as being David Beckham. And it must be disconcerting being chewed over in public. But complaining about it does seem to be a very specific girl thing. Every time we have any women-in-climbing discussion involving personalities, there seems to be a great deal more fuss made than equivalent discussions about men, even the Ben H thing. As a gross generalisation, men seem more inclined to come on and defend themselves, women more inclined to say how unfair it all is.

jcm

In reply to Niall Grimes:
>

That's a real shame. Could you pass this suggestion on to Katherine? When UKC asked me to write an article for them, I was happy to do so, but knew I wouldn't read any comments, and I didn't. It does mean you miss out on people's positive comments... but not entirely because people come up and talk to you, which is a heck of a sight more pleasant than comments on here.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:


I wonder why?

In reply to Niall Grimes: I read the piece you wrote where you were in the semi derelict house and went out and grew wings and flew (it was a while ago). It was good. Thanks

In reply to tonanf:

Let's share.

http://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/page.php?id=287

In reply to beastofackworth: aint janus E6 6B anyway? :o/


Definitive E77A IIRC - because the line looked like two 7's according to Johnny and correlated with HIS grading system back on Planet Johnny.

In reply to Niall Grimes:

Well said Niall. As usual you say what I want to say, but better. Damn you.

Well done Lucy. Effort.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:
What women said that? Sounds like just your interpretation.

As a gross generalisation men seem to come on and whinge whenever an article doesn't personally grab them as interesting whereas women are more inclined to say it's interesting to me so piss off.

In reply to Niall Grimes:

I like your post.

I know people always say 'oh, just develop thicker skin' but why *should* people? it might toughen you up to the criticism, but I suspect you also miss some of life's more subtle nuances.

I'd like Katherine Schirmacher to write more, if only because she wrote an article on moonclimbing that I thought was unfeasibly ace.

Can't we all just agree, for once, that we are lucky to have such a fantastically rich variety of climbing to indulge ourselves in and, for all of us who are bored in the office, to be able to read almost anything about someone like Lucy's climbing achievements is worthwhile. Heck, we have articles on here about climbing V Diffs or whatever.

This article about Lucy may not be about absolute cutting edge climbing, but it's about what is going on with (to quote a rather fab film) "one of the coutry's top" climbers. It makes us all richer to share in it all. Horrible word, share, in the way it is commonly abused - but with climbing being such a relatively small community it's just great to hear what's going on. I wouldn't know half (a tenth?) of what's going on without UKC.

So, thanks Mick for giving us lots of snippets of news/info/whatever you want to call it. I feel informed

And good on you Lucy.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

That last point would make me a woman, but on the whole I agree.

As to which women, well, Lucy C, Airlie A (who to be fair comes on here, or used to, and shouts how unfair it all is), Katharine S and Lucy Ellis come immediately to mind.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

Oh I see. Well, I can't comment on that. My recollection of articles on here or elsewhere is not that detailed.

since when has it been downgraded in technical difficulty?
ive done it and its E76c , asnd incidently placing gear on lead is part of the crux, if people started ground upping this , the gear placements would get ruined, as they are only smalleys in the groove.

6b my arse

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I thought that ended in offers to take it outside and sloper being consulted for legal advice? In comparison Lucy writing a blog saying some people are mean and fussy seems a rather sensible and proportionate response.

Otherwise I'm slightly inclined to agree, if you want to be a public figure even in a rather little and unimportant world like climbing, you will be discussed.

And Mick - believe me, just because you write something in the print media, people can and will respond. For some of my public writing I've been accused of being a militarist war-mongerer, an anti-Semite, an appeaser to "Islamo-fascism", a neo-con, a liar and mentally unbalanced. Colleagues have had threatening phone calls and one had personal information put on a neo-nazi website. Being called a headpointer doesn't seem so bad in comparison!

In reply to TobyA:

I've been accused of being a militarist war-mongerer, an anti-Semite, an appeaser to "Islamo-fascism", a neo-con, a liar and mentally unbalanced. Colleagues have had threatening phone calls and one had personal information put on a neo-nazi website. Being called a headpointer doesn't seem so bad in comparison!

LOL

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Are you a groupie of this Miss Creamer?

It's really not very interesting to know what she's been up to... is climbing a "celebrity" field nowadays? Heaven help us all

In reply to dannnnnH:

That does sound right to me (about the gear placements). Odd as it might seem, from the point of view of preserving routes there's perhaps a better argument for pre-practice of some hard better-protected routes than there is for un-protected ones. I have a dim memory of Johnny complaining about people trying to lead Gaia and taking big falls when a little more practice (or leaving well alone) would have been better - from the point of view of not wearing the cam placement.

In reply to John Gillott:

Johnny Dawes top rope advocate. Reason? Conservation of gear placements.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I'm sure Lucy is in a transitional stage in her climbing career. As soon as her head comes in line with her amazing physical ability (8a Onsight) The big numbers will start to fall.
I can't wait.

The Ent ™

In reply to Enty: you seem to be forgetting that there are only 3 blokes in the country who've onsighted/flashed harder than her - the big numbers have been falling for a fair while!

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


FFS Bruce - read the 1700000 other post above and elsewhere about what is and isn't news on climbing site. It's hardly Celebrity Big Brother is it? She is one of the best UK climbers doing a very hard UK route. What exactly do you think should be news on British climbing website - the Ukrainian election results?

Do people go on football sites, read the match headlines on last nights' games and then whine "Liverpool beating Villa 1-0 in a slightly dull match? Well that's not really news is it?! It's hardly like they've never played each other before..." IT'S A ?#¤%ING CLIMBING WEBSITE PEOPLE - WHAT DO YOU EXPECT TO READ ABOUT?!?

<now breath deeply and think calm thoughts>

In reply to abarro81:

Sorry, I mean big head numbers. I know all about her limestone stuff as alot of it was done down the road from us here at St Leger.

The Ent ™

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I think Lucy's confirmed what we all suspected. Its like fashion. What goes around, comes around.

This is the dawning of the age of 'HARD GRIT II'!

Siege tactics? What Siege tactics?

<Seb, you know that Trebuchet, you borrowed....>

;-P
HD.

In reply to TobyA:

Surely Bruce was posting that in ironic humour as a pisstake against the ignorant stereotype blinkered males that are thankfully so rare.

...wasn't he?

In reply to abarro81:

No offence meant to anyone here, but that's simply not true

In reply to GDes:
simpson (renegade, zone?)
pasqual (eota)
birkett (fear of failure)
any more? i'm talking trad btw, obviously there's lots more on bolts..

In reply to abarro81: lots

In reply to GDes:
bull. i cant be arsed with this 'i know someone who onsights e8 all the time but i'm far too scene to tell you'..
let's have some names for these anonomous beasts!
pete hurley?

ps thanks for replacing the chalkbag in mallorca, hope the knee got better!

In reply to Niall Grimes:

I totally agree with your comments Niall and I've avoided posting for the same reason. I wish people would just take Lucy's achievement on merit and applaud her but oh no, where's the fun in that?

Good effort Lucy and don't take a blind bit of notice of the negative comments on here. You still have the support of the majority. Go headpoint to your hearts content.

Hey and I'm glad it was flagged up in the news. It beats reading depressing news.

David


p.s. And yes reach does make climbing grit harder and the only people who tell me otherwise are those who can reach the holds.

In reply to abarro81: No problem, hope it stayed in tact!

Rest of the trip was a bit unsettled weather wise, so more sport, but a couple good days at diablo.

And this isn't the place for above discussion, mailed!

In reply to David Simmonite: Although I have been stopped by the odd short reach in my time.

In reply to TobyA:

lol

I tried to say the same in my post last night but mine was way too fluffy !

In reply to Niall Grimes:
Go on tell me where? I can use it to sandbag tall climbers.

In reply to David Simmonite: king kong stanage high neb.

In reply to TobyA:


Subjects related to climbing, not celebrity bullshit. I've never been that into living by procuration, get no tingle at all out of spectator sports.... each to his own though if you're into this Creamer bird.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Dude

Climbing media have been reporting on what top climbers do for decades.

This is no different.

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:


Yes it is Mick it's about some burd. Who cares what they do?

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

I don't think so... are you interested in what the "star climbers" get up to, male or female? I'm certainly not... if others are I'm surprised, but it's a bit sad for them, that's all.

I bet you'll all be watching the rugby matches as well... it's all we ever hear about on the news in France at the moment... as boring as who's blue-pointed grade 8n at Stanage to me

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

It seems somewhat more repetitive, but perhaps it's just her name that stands out more. It's true magazines have always tried to build up this side of things, never understood why personally.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:


She climbed (and let's just repeat that loudly for emphasis in case you didn't catch it - "climbed") an E7?!?! How is that "celebrity bullshit" and not a "subject related to climbing"? What are you on?

When some one sets a national record in the 200 mtrs, presumably the athletics news reporting that is - in your book - "celebrity bullshit"?

In reply to TobyA:


Mostly yes, but athletics is a competitive sport not a hobby like climbing... totally different... like apples and bananas really, or onions even.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

So what? 99 percent of TV and "news" is of no interest to me at all. Guess what I do? I skim through what I'm not interested in and focus on what I am.

Your negative and disparaging comments on a website that happens to encompass my interests has direct repercussions on what gets reported. No wonder mags go down the pan so often when people like you demand such channelled coverage.
Thank goodness for Mick. If he wasn't so robust it would put him off reporting on things I want to read. If female climbers and women climbing writers in general were not the persistent butt of derogatory remarks like yours there would be more of them writing on places like here; me included.
As for your "celeb" thing; just because these attitudes are are in your head it doesn't mean they are in anyone else's. I think they're bullshit in climbing because it's such a small world anyway.
But I do gain inspiration from people who perform well regardless of whether or not lots of people have heard of them. Why not? What's wrong with saying "well done" from time to time?

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

I agree, have not always been a fan of Micks, but I like the way he sticks to his guns and (appears to) ignore the flak.


Agreed, this is partly what I tried to say (badly) last night. Climbing is such a relatively small world that it's great to hear what everyone is up to. UKC is becoming a v significant part of that, more so than the mags. Keep it up please.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:

So you would prefer me not to express my opinions on an open forum? Hmmm.... I see.

It's nothing to do with her being a woman, this shows more about your own hang ups than mine, if it had been "TobyA starts to headpoint - Janus E7 6b" it would have been the same. I don't think one should look at things in a sexist way personally.... but like I said above each to his, or her, own.

BTW there are plenty of good women climbers on the continent, it's not considered so unusual, perhaps the UK is a bit behind on this one?

In reply to Bruce Hooker: 'BTW there are plenty of good women climbers on the continent, it's not considered so unusual, perhaps the UK is a bit behind on this one?'

Sports climbers, presumably. This thread is about climbing grit routes.

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

That is the main difference between print news and web news.

You can express your opinion.

UKClimbing.com has a very large readership with diverse outdoor interests. When selecting news items we consider this. Not all of the news will be of interest to one person. But every news item will be of interest to a percentage of people - even if it is just to ask whether it is actually news.

As an editor here I have to think beyond my own interests.

Mick

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

I seem to have stirred something up here! To be clear I don't wish in any way to influence your editorial policy (not that I think this is likely) I just made a remark about what seemed an odd headline, I didn't realise that this sort of thing was considered news-worthy.

Please ignore my post, it wasn't meant in a heavy way at all... and it certainly wasn't because she's a women.

Personally I'm not interested in personality cults or the whole celeb/competitive sort of thing (in climbing it usually ends up in the obituary columns) but clearly I'm in a minority on this one, so I'll shut up

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

That's fair enough Bruce.

Ta

Mick

In reply to Bruce Hooker:
I'd just prefer it if you read a few of the previous posts first so you are up to speed with the debate. And please refrain from calling women "birds", pet.

In reply to Bruce Hooker: Perhaps you would like to give us an example of something that should be considered 'news-worthy' on a UK climbing related forum. Or, indeed if you believe that such a thing exists ?

In reply to Mick Ryan - UKClimbing.com:

Good greif, what a thread! Don't you worry about what you've done sometimes? I know we can't limit open discussion on such forums but it reminds me about an old line I heard once on the positives of democracy "a shit system but by far the best we've got". It makes me long sometimes for the editorial control and the neccesary time and space to think before a reply associated with a letters page.

In reply to Alison Stockwell:


It must be a generation thing, sweety

In reply to Bruce Hooker:

Its not a sport or competitive and has no quantitative measures, so the goodness of a climber cant be assesed, surely you contradicting yourself with this statement. if you dont want to waste your life hearing about other people acheivements then why do you post on this forum? shouldn't you be working, climbing or doing something?

This thread doesn't exactly show climbers in a good light. It would be a shame if a load of whinging from armchair climbers stopped talented climbers from being reported in the news and from getting sponsorship.

Well done Lucy!

In reply to JoeL 90:


It might lead to them living longer though