In reply to gsg9currieboy:
> (In reply to Duncan Bourne)
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> You need to get up the mountains more and you will find that there are hundreds of hard climbs with easy ground just off route. If you want to solo and jump for the step. Then you will thank that step for saving your life and allowing you to climb another day.
Very true but they are fundamentally different to the other mountain routes that do not provide such an opportunity. If you can jump off a route then the difficulty lies only in the technical aspect of the climb.
> If trad protection is so good then you shouldn't mind pushing the grade and falling on your placed protection.
And lots of people do this. But essentially trad protection is about the fact that you place the gear, you and no one else makes that decision, you and no one else knows how good or not that gear is.
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> So you are allowing one group of humans to deny other humans from exercising the same wrights? Remembering that placing permanent protection does not prevent the placement of removable protection.
You do not have a right (not wright) to place bolts willy nilly. And by placing bolts you RUIN, and I don't think that is too strong a word, any potential traditional ascent of the same rock. Now it may be that like at Horseshoe and other sport venues there was not much to ruin in the first place or like at Malham where traditional protection was minimal or absent so a local decision was made to bolt. But where a good traditional rock climb exists then it will be lessened by bolting. Bolting a route (I accept that "sporting" bolts with long run outs inbetween add an element of boldness) reduces a climb from a well rounded challenge to a mere physical exercise. If I chose to climb a bolted route traditionally then I am constantly aware that I can duck out at any time which creates a completely different mental out look. Going back to your climb by some steps would you say that a climb with consistent 5c climbing where you could get off onto steps at any moment was the same as a consistent 5c climb where you couldn't? By bolting a route you are permanently imposing your view on others who wish to climb that route. Trad climbing approaches the rock in its natural unaltered state and accepts the challenges it presents. Bolting changes that state and imposes restrictions on the challenge to accommodate human frailty.
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> How far are you willing to force your morals on me. A fine, arrest. WILL YOU GO AS FAR AS TO PUT A GUN TO MY HEAD. Because your comment just has.
Don't talk soft. Is what I said really any worse than you forcing your moral stance onto me? I don't think so.
Actually if you were to bolt a route where no agreement exited then I think arrest would be fair. After all it would be vandalism.
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> And if climbing past some bolts is going to disturb your emotions then you need to man up and look at the bigger picture.
As do you. You are being presented with the fantastic banquet that is trad climbing and all you want is a cheap cheeseburger.
Really really you still don't get it. Such an outlook is very sad.