UKC

I've now led 50 separate HVS climbs (33 single pitch and 17 multi-pitch). But, I've yet to lead an E1.

Is this a record?

In reply to Pero:

I think i had led more HVS before I led my first ‘proper’ E1.. I did a small handful of soft touches though.

In reply to Pero:


Are you sure? One of them is bound to be upgraded at some point.

In reply to Pero:

Wow, could be. I think the majority have probably led E1 before they do any multi-pitch HVS.

In reply to Pero:
According to your log book you've recorded 'AltLd' on Bishop's Rib (E1 5b) and Excelsior (E1 5b). Surely they count? I know I'd count them.

In reply to mattrm:


I only count as leads the ones where I led a pitch of the requisite grade.

Of course I can lead a muti-pitch E1 or E2 if I only have to lead pitches at 4c or well protected 5a.

In reply to Pero:

I think it's a record that more that three posts have appeared without writing 'lead' when 'led' was intended!

On topic, 50 at one grade with none higher is a pretty impressive number, and clearly shows you haven't been pushing yourself enough

In reply to mattrm:


I would not count an "AltLd" at E1, unless I had led at least one E1 pitch. For example - Vertigo on Bonaidh Donn with my mate Ewan (who's a lot better than me!) in 2010. I led first and last pitches - the first good VS and the 3rd easier - and he led the slightly run-out 5a/b crux E1 pitch. For me, I view this as a VS lead for me and an E1 lead for Ewan.

M

In reply to Pero:

Sounds quite a lot, I've climbed 44 VS's and 20 HVS's, prob only half of them are lead (other half second) but I guess it also depends on how often you climb. You might lead 50 HVS's in a few weeks or in a few years?

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Really? What is it with multipitch these days? Can't anybody abseil any more?

Actually, I'd say that the individual pitches on multipitch E1s often don't feel any harder an lot of single pitch HVSs. I did things like the Grooves on Cyrn Las quite early in my leading career and didn't really notice a big jump from Peak HVS.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

'What is it with multipitch these days?'

I've always assumed it's something to do with the rise of the SPA system, plus the fact that most people start their climbing careers indoors.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


It's more serious when things go wrong. Therefore worth having more experience, skills, and maybe climbing a lower grade.

In reply to Pero:
I'm impressed that you can be that specific about numbers, you are obviously much more thorough in your record keeping than I was when I was breaking through those grades.

In retrospect I can say that I not led any HVS, when I led my first E1 aged 17, as 20+ plus years later my first HVS was upgraded to E1. To be honest it was only my third lead, but that was because we were poor school boys who had been climbing almost a year before we could afford to buy any lead gear.

In reply to Pero:
How many on-sight accents do you have at HVS? You have clearly climbed some HVS which are towards the top of the grade.

Might be worth looking at some softer E1s (sorry a bit Peak centric)

Easter Rib (E1 5b)
Millsom's Minion (E1 5b)
Billingsgate (E1 5b)
Bicycle Repair Man (E1 5b)

Else bridge the gap with E0

Three Pebble Slab (HVS 5a)
Green Acres (HVS 5a)
Namenlos (HVS 5a)

Some good solid at the HVS grade indicator routes might be:

Gangue Grooves (HVS 5b)
Lone Tree Groove (HVS 5a)
Nonsuch (E1 5b)

Maybe it's just a mental barrier, I think I saw Blizzard Ridge (HVS 5a) in your logbook, which is probably harder than Millsom's Minion (E1 5b) and comparable in terms of boldness more or less.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


That puts me firmly in the minority then. Multi pitch HVS never seemed like a particularly significant extension to single pitch - I don't really think I made a distinction. E1 now - that was a massive breakthrough.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


Not sure what you mean by 'these days'. I guess in the early 1900s shorter routes were less popular (being seen more just as a form of training), so bigger routes were relatively more popular.

Personally I think when breaking into a new grade, long mountain routes seem a bigger deal than short single pitch. So you're more likely to do the latter first. The other big factor is just that short crags are generally more accessible than big cliffs and don't need such good weather. This being the case, most folk are statistically going to be at shorter venues more often, and conveniently well placed to attempt a harder route after completing an easier route.

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


What, more serious than hitting the ground?

Obviously I'm not saying start off on Henna Cliff because it's technically a bit soft but I do think that there seems to be a bit of a mental block about doing two 5a pitches one above the other, as opposed to next to each other.

In reply to Pero:

You don't actually say whether or not you consider this to be a problem that you haven't led one, nor if you actually want to lead one? Anyway, my question would be have you actually tried one and failed? Your logbook suggests otherwise. Maybe just have a crack at some? Failing that, get somebody to sandbag you, that works.

In reply to Dave Garnett:


If that's the level of debate, I'll leave you to it Dave.

In reply to Wayne S:

Thanks for the list. I doubt my first E1 will be on grit. I have a growing list of E1's that I will have a go at, but none of them are on grit. All the grit E1's I've seconded are way too scary! Including Millsom's Minion, I'm sorry to say.

It's got to be a route I could take a fall on. Most of the people I climb with never (or very rarely) take a trad lead fall. I've taken 11 lead falls (proper wingers, not just shuffling back down to rest on gear - and mostly on 5a). So, my feeling is that I do push things on lead and, in many ways, it's due to the trust in my gear that I lead HVS in the first place.

Interestingly, and I'd never noticed this before, 8 of my 11 wingers have been on grit!

If I didn't want to take any lead falls, I'd have to stick to VS 4c. My last lead fall on 4c was Heather Wall in Oct-14. I was returning from injury and not climbing well enough.

But, at 5a and especially 5b I have to factor in the significant probablity that I'll need two (or more) goes at the crux.

I think it's only a matter of time and it's not a big deal to me. I only ever really wanted to get solid at HVS. Suddenly, I seem to have almost without noticing achieved that goal. This year is the first year that I've seriously considered an E1 lead.

In reply to Tom Last:

It's not a problem, it just suddenly seems like a real possibility. And, you're right, I haven't tried one yet. But, it's probably only a matter of time.

In reply to Pero:

So even though you find HVS tough, you do usually succeed?

If so, the challenge of HVS is waning. That is, if you want a challenge.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

It seems pretty obvious to me why most first E1s are single pitch on accessible crags: like Michael said you are there more often and others mentioned the HVS upgrade factor but probably the biggest reasons are beta related (you see others leading and get to see the route from the route next door and meet more people who will encourage you). Most won't count two pitch climbs as true mulitpitch and for the real thing the mountain environment with its extra risks and usually worse weather will factor high in many minds. In your defence (as a Roaches guide editor) I do think climbing say all the BMC guide 3 star classic Roaches HVS lower tier routes* in a day may well be harder than any classic E1 and most E2s ith the same number of pitches

*The list for those who dont know them:

Teck Crack (E1 5c) Matinee (HVS 5b) The Mincer (HVS 5b) ...those wanting some easier 'rest' pitches could stick in The Sloth and Saul's Crack from the Upper Tier

In reply to ian caton:



Yes, I've only backed off on one HVS recently: Great Portland Street, where I couldn't get the "fierce mantleshelf" at the start. But, I do still find them challenging. E.g. Bitter Battle Tears and One for All at Shorn Cliff and Plexity at Millstone all felt full-on.

There's definitely no lack of Challenge at HVS. High on the list are Finale Groove and a few others at Swanage and Great North Road at Millstone. These are top-end of my leading for sure.

But, there is the allure of moving up to E1, which I can't deny.

In reply to Offwidth:




Well, since those would get E2 in many other areas, I don't doubt that linking them would be harder than many a 3 pitch E2.

In reply to Pero:

I went straight from VS to my first E1 lead, then followed it up with 3 HVSs. The E1 was ok because I was expecting it to be much harder than VS, but the HVSs shook me in that they were harder than I had expected, having already led an E1

Weird

In reply to 1poundSOCKS:


Ok, I was being a bit flippant and it will always depend on the specifics, but a lot of second pitches are less serious than the first. I've not yet done it myself, but I've belayed someone who fell the entire length of a pitch (and then some). Fortunately, we had a pitch to spare.

Obviously, it can be more complicated to get off a multipitch route but it's not necessarily more serious. If you can competently build a belay at the top of a single pitch, I don't see why you wouldn't be able to do it at a stance.

Preferably don't pick something massively overhanging, a huge traverse or something with dodgy belays and make sure you can reliably tie two ropes together.

In reply to Offwidth:

I'm a simple soul and always thought that climbs with more than one pitch were multipitch!

I was really only raising an eyebrow at the apparently growing attitude that multipitch climbing should be considered a major step up even for a competent leader and something best left to the experts.

Sometimes it is, and sometimes it isn't.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

When I started climbing on mountain crags, I don't remember making any distinction whatever between single and multipitch routes. In fact, in those days of generally poorer protection, we usually found single pitches, or the first route of a multipitch, slightly more serious than pitches higher up because there was a greater chance of hitting the deck if anything went badly wrong.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

On the face of it, I agree with that. But, I know people who are going for their MIA tend to head to two-pitch crags so they can bag a number of multi-pitch routes in a day. That always seemed to me to be not quite right. If you do a 6-pitch route at Cloggy then that should count at least as much towards an MIA quota as three 2-pitch routes at Tremadog.

There's also the case where, for example, I led Sinew at Wynd Cliff (which is a 40m HVS). I did it as two pitches, but I recorded that as a single-pitch route because it can normally be done as one pitch.

I guess there are quite a few two-pitch crags where you would run the pitches together up to a certain grade (depending on your climbing ability) but multi-pitch the harder routes. Lightening Wall at Swanage is another example where I led it as two pitches, but I've seen it led as a single pitch. In fact, I recorded that as a multi-pitch lead, because I judged that to be the normal approach at the grade.

In reply to Pero:

Ah, well, that's a whole different thing. That's a qualification. I'm talking about experience and ability. I only record things for my own amusement (and often don't). I have no qualifications.


Again with the recording. Climbs don't exist except as we are able to solve them and choose to experience them. Obviously, if you have a 60m rope and a crag that's 120m high you can't do it in one pitch. Other than that, it's up to you.

Sometimes you take a stance before the place the guidebook suggests because you're a bit lost and can't see where the next stance is. Sometimes you have an inexperienced second and you belay somewhere you will be able to see them on the hard bit. Sometimes you are in a hurry and run pitches together (having made sure the ropes will run properly). Sometimes you don't like the look of the top and belay at what looks like the last decent gear, to be sure there's enough rope to get somewhere safe. Occasionally, people (not me, obviously) have been known to take a hanging stance to avoid it being called a point of aid. Usually you just belay where the guidebooks suggests because it's the the most sensible place (hopefully, if the guidebook's any good!).

In reply to Pero:

Imo you're never going to think HVS is easy if that's the hardest you'll climb. Push your max a grade or two and it'll change.

In reply to Niblet:


Some HVS's certainly feel a lot easier now I've done 50 of them!

In reply to Pero:

I've checked my records and I'd led 21 VS and 3 HVS before onsighting first E1.

Despite doing that first E1 13ys ago, I most recently failed on an E1 last month.

In reply to Pero:

Sheffield severe climber learns simple trick to climbing E1. Real climbers HATE this simple trick!

1. Go to Staden Quarry.
2. Climb Joint Effort (HVS 5b) to start with.
3. When you find it easy, walk left and climb Bicycle Repair Man (E1 5b). Good gear, conventional, open style wall climbing, single pitch, but crux high enough to be safe. Grade no longer cursed.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

That's because the Peak grading is harder than everywhere else!

In reply to Pero:

Lunakod at Sharpnose is a lot harder than plenty of E1's...definately harder than E1's of a similar style e.g Cenotaph Corner IMO and better too!

If you tried one you'd probably be pleasently surprised. Having that sort of build up is probably a very good thing, personally I genuinely thought I was going to die on my first E2 and first E3 leads, mostly from getting on lead without enough experience.

In reply to JHiley:


4. Then climb Swan Song just to the left and now you're steady at E1!

In reply to Pero:

Come to Fairy Caves quarry. You will be able to lead E1 all day long. The angle is low, the gear is not great but technicaly the grades are pretty easy - as an HVS leader you just need to keep your head together and keep climbing...

In reply to Dave Garnett:

>

Did anyone say that?

In reply to Pero:
No worries, worth remembering that HVS is really wide as a grade, to be solid at HVS means some easier E1s are a formality really. The start on Great Portland Street is pretty stiff and as I recall is easier if you stay left on the wall a move longer than first imagined. Something like God (E1 5b) at Willersley Castle Rocks is pretty well protected, though not soft at the grade.

In reply to JHiley:




I like the sound of this plan. I've fancied trying Joint Effort for ages and my attempts at grit HVSs this year has been pretty disastrous so clearly this will feel much easier and I'll cruise on straight to E1 afterwards. Perfect. Does it come with a money back guarantee?

Dave Garnett - did you get my message? You don't see people's email when they message you anymore, so I had to message back to you via here.

In reply to Owen W-G:


I see from my records that I'd led 45 VS/HVS (over a period of 2 1/2 years, 1968-70) before onsighting my first E1 in 1970.

In reply to TobyA:



Joint Effort is a great, long pitch, with climbing as good as Cemetery Gates (though without the huge exposure, of course) ... and the crux move on JE is technically much harder. So I'd say, if you want to break into E1, do Joint Effort first, then Cemetery Gates! Bicycle Repairman is a whole different fishkettle, very good but very full-weight sustained E1 5B from my memory. Harder climbing, basically, than CG.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I haven't done Cemetery Gates. I have seconded Cenotaph Corner and interestingly thought it was easier than most of grit HVSs I have done. Not sure if that helps further the conversation much...

In reply to TobyA:


Well Cenotaph is much harder (at the top) than the Gates, but not so sustained. Cenotaph is (roughly) 5a, 4c, 5a, 5c, 5b, whereas Cemetery Gates is 4c, 5a, 4c, 5a, 4c, to the ledge (but very sustained). Then a bit of 4c+ & 2a

In reply to TobyA:

Yes I can refund you the sum of £0.

TBH the role of joint effort is only as a confidence boost/ warm up because its low in the grade hvs. The plan relies on the climber being able to lead Peak sport 6a ish and place wires.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

>Cenotaph is (roughly) 5a, 4c, 5a, 5c, 5b, whereas Cemetery Gates is 4c, 5a, 4c, 5a, 4c,

An impressive effort managing to do those in 5 pitches.

In reply to Michael Gordon:

Perhaps I should have used hyphens ...

In reply to Dave Garnett:
This simple Dave is not someone I recognise

Back on subject:

Many modern single pitch routes were multipitch in the past and you can lead a 120m crag in one pitch by moving together. Climbing always seems to resist pigeon-holes.

Did anyone claim first E1s are a big leap from HVS, other than those people freaking themselves based on labels. Those classic Roaches routes I listed from your guide were to point out that that true onsights of such routes would be much harder than many easy E1's for average modern HVS leaders looking to lead E1.

The person thinking peak grades are clearly the hardest around E0, needs to get out more. Yorkshire is harder ( Desperation Crack https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/c.php?i=28133 at Brimham is a good place to learn this at HVS.... as an offwidth fan those logbook votes seem amazingly low and must show normal climbers avoid it).. I'm sure Northumberland and Cornwall have a few beasts as well.

In reply to Offwidth:

I thought the issue was that multipitch was perhaps unacceptably serious for the inexperienced. I think I'd rather they risked multiple pitches than moving together!

Anyway, all this faffing about Staffordshire grit grades is beside the point. Assuming the traditional solution of Long Tall Sally isn't acceptable, JHiley has the answer and it's limestone.

In reply to Pero:

Such is the weirdness of grading on short grit routes, I think I soloed an E1 before I led my first HVS. It's probably now graded Font 4 or something.

In reply to Michael Gordon:


My first E1 was multi-pitch after leading lots of multi-pitch HVS

In reply to Dave Garnett:

I was making the point that multi-pitch is a less solid concept than it appears. I still feel proper mountain multi-pitch HVS is a lot more serious for the inexperienced than single pitch (or two pitch) E1 on a popular roadside crag. Some climber's risk perception seems to go a bit fuzzy when it comes to additional objective dangers.

Those Roaches classics stiff grades (and similar elsewhere) also matter as some people will have led such routes and still bizarrely will be worried about leading E1. Most nationality low end E1s that suit a climbers style will be a good bit easier than a nationally top end VS that doesn't, let alone similar at HVS.

In reply to Pero:

It sounds as if you're doing lots of HVS but your technique might be holding you back, especially if you keep taking wingers. I've been going to a really good bouldering wall in Bristol for the last few winters (Bloc, instead of just going to UCR) and i think it's definitely helped my technique. Also, how good is your climbing partner? It helps if they can take you up climbs which are slightly harder than you think you can do - it will show you what you're capable of because you can try different things in a safe and fun environment.

I spent my first two years of climbing, getting to Severe with an equally inept partner. Two years later, in a club, I knocked off my first E1. Your confidence in your ability to climb E1 will improve when you have positive support from your partner and plenty of RECENT climbing activity at that grade (in whatever form it comes).

Just to say that it was just a matter of time. My first E1 lead was "Rock Dancer 2" in the Echo Valley, Costa Blanca.

I'm glad it was a good one.

In reply to Pero:

Congratulations!

Mick

In reply to Wayne S:

Sorry, I beg to differ. The latter is definitely harder!

In reply to Dave Garnett:


Doesn't really count that way though, does it?

T.

In reply to Pero:

I believe it's traditional for someone to pop up at this point and say that route is actually E0.

Congrats.

In reply to Wayne S:


Really? I disagree. MM has a bold start and, although the move isn't that hard, you could hit the deck off bottom moves of MM whereas BR is totally safe from start to finish. Crux also technically harder on MM. BR is benchmark HVS and no more. MM is E1, albeit possibly at softer end.

In reply to Pero:

I reluctantly top-roped my first severe last week

In reply to Pero:

I reluctantly top-roped my first severe last week. A classic folks say, in the peaks district

In reply to birdie num num:

you're back

In reply to Sean Kelly:

A little maybe, but the point is not a lot! We could disagree all day long about 1/2 a grade. The thread was about grade progression, HVS is a wide and varied grade, if you are getting stuff done at the top of the grade then my point was why shy away from lower E1 routes.

Most graded lists have BR high and MM low.

In reply to climberchristy:
Disagree away......that's the joy of grading. Harder, easier.....come on, there ain't that much between them.

MM a bit bold at the start, but easy if you are tuned in to yarding between rounded brakes. Sure BR is safer, but it is highish in the grade.

Kinda what you would expect at the top and bottom of grade ranges!

In reply to Wayne S:



I ought to point out that this debate started under the misapprehension that I had led BR. I have only seconded it. I thought it was a bold lead but I didn't find it technically difficult.

I've also seconded MM and I fell off near the bottom, which would have been fairly disastrous on lead!

For someone at my level, I think MM is a step up in objective danger.

In reply to Pero:

Sounds like you made a sensible assesment to me, so looking for technically harder but safer might be a good option......please ignore my E0 suggestions, they are clearly about risk vs grade reward.

My tough HVS suggestions would make safe bench mark for instance. There are loads of great HVS routes to revel in for a bit.