In reply to Tony Sparks:
From what I can gather, you've read a blog about a solo which didn't happen, and combined that with your experience from a look at the start of RH gully, and have gone on to make 5 from 2+2. You're also saying:
The 'mess' (your opinion) that picks have made to Manx Wall and other routes.
'The devastating effect mixed climbers are having on the flora and fauna(!) on Clogwyn Du'.
.. Plus some minor side-line whining about 'glorified dry tool routes' and climbers not reading Si Panton's/CCW's excellent The White Guide.
In reality.. The snow was unconsolidated at the base of Clogwyn Du on Saturday (the one thing you do get correct) but luckily it was also a metre or more deep on the Pillar Chimney approach ramp in the lower reaches of the crag. The only unfrozen turf we encountered during the day was digging through the deep snow just beneath the little chimney/step on the approach ramp pitch to get to the belay at the base of Manx Wall - this didn't concern us because we weren't climbing on turf on the approach ramp - we were walking up deep steep snow.
I can promise you that on Manx Wall we didn't encounter a single piece of unfrozen turf because the climbing was either on good neve, softer snow (which was deep on any significant ledge), rock, or solidly frozen turf where it was exposed i.e. on the traverse left where Manx Wall joins El Mancho. I can't think of a single placement I made where I ripped a piece of soft turf out. That's actually quite unusual even for when the turf is exposed and well-frozen.
Had we encountered unfrozen turf on the route rest assured that I and the two people I was with do care enough not to want to damage - the turf (or the fauna, haha!), our own reputations, or other mixed climber's right to climb in the area. We're all experienced enough and I believe responsible enough to know when to call it. Don't need advice from someone who wasn't on the same part of cliff and who was on a completely different type of terrain - i.e. a low-angled snow covered gully/slope.
You're right to be concerned about climbing unfrozen routes. I too think it's an important issue and that we need to to reinforce good habits and try to create a culture where bad practice is reduced as much as possible. But before people cast aspersions on ukc you should be aware of the dynamics of the cliff. If you look at what you encountered on RH gully it illustrates how conditions often are in early season on Clogwyn Du - your route was an easy-angled gully/slope full of metres-deep thawing snow. In this sort of terrain the turf will always remain unfrozen for longer than on steep terrain where there's less sitting snow. As I said, on the easy-angled approach ramp to Manx Wall we found soft turf underneath the deep snow, so I'm not surprised you found your gully route out of condition. The turf on the cliff face however was frozen where it was exposed and, where it was buried, it was buried deeply enough that we climbed on snow not unfrozen buried turf. The second pitch of the route was totally plastered in hard neve - I've never climbed the top wall in that condition - by being able to kick steps in the neve rather than balance picks and front points on rock (but no gear for Dave!).
'The devastating effect mixed climbers
are having on flora fauna'. ??? That sounds a bit hysterical to me - a more accurate statement would be: '..the
potential for 'devastation' (in your words) that mixed climbers might have were they to climb exposed unfrozen turf...
..Unless you're aware of destruction of flora on Clogwyn Du that you want to bring to our attention?
I assume you've read the summary from the last CCW survey of Clogwyn Du which states found 'the condition of the ledge and crack system vegatation did not look to have been affected'. habitat?
http://www.thebmc.co.uk/winter-climbing-conservation-impact
Of course that means we need to remain cautious of when and where we climb but dubious proclamations of damage, by people reading blogs and who weren't even on the piece of cliff that they're talking about, help nobody.
As for your other 'points' (whines?):
Don't we read the White Guide? - Everyone I winter climb with reads/has read it. it's an excellent resource and I think unique to Welsh winter climbing. As I type it's on the table next to my guidebook.
Fauna?! - which fauna are you referring to? The pair of Ravens looked to be having a good time breaking into climbers' packs to steal sweeties.
Glorified dry tooling routes? - a frustrating case of semantics which is unique (as far as I know) to the UK. The term 'dry tool' holds no emotional baggage anywhere else I know of except for the UK, where it seems to be used pejoratively by gully-bashing dinosaurs. Get over it snow-plodders, gully-bashers and ice-climbers, picks on rock
is dry tooling as you point out, even if the rock is rimed. Part of 'mixed climbing' is therefore dry tooling if that's how you wish to frame it and it's forever been thus, dry tooling isn't a dirty word except to people who don't know how to climb in winter if it isn't a frozen watercourse or a snow-filled gully. The issue confuses punters in the UK - perhaps because they have trouble making the distinction between bolted dry-tooling on low level training crags and 'legitimate' mixed-climbing on mountain crags which, despite being a different game with a different name, still sometimes involves picks on rock instead of in ice or snow. Have you ever tried climbing any of the routes you dismiss as 'glorified dry tooling' to give any weight to your opinion?