UKC

Did Trapeze (E1 5b) up on Aonach Dubh yesterday and it got me thinking about routes where the crux pitch isn't actually the best pitch. The crux second pitch of Trapeze is a nice enough crack but the money pitch is definitely the fifth, with bold and steep climbing on positive holds in a brilliant position.

So what the routes where you should definitely graciously cede the crux to your partner so you can baggsy the lead on the best pitch?

I thought that the 5a traverse on Suicide Wall (E1 5c) at Bosigran was way better than the 5c crack which follows it. One of my favourite pitches ever.

I often wonder how many fantastic routes are out there with a bit of clean aid. Im not suggesting aiding any free route to be clear, just musing.

That was the first one I thought of too

There's also those few oddities where the crux pitch doesn't have the crux on it. Like Sabre Cut (VS 4c)

Vector at Tremadog, I’m sure the crux is the final groove not the amazing main pitch.

Carnage Left-Hand at Malham is an excellent example of this. A superb E1 5b with a point of aid on a peg vs what would be a super unbalanced route with a 6b crux.

I was going to suggest Diagonal at the Mot but I see the top '4c' pitch has now been upgraded to 5a.

A Dream of White Horses?

Gob (HVS 4c)

Aren't all the pitches on Gob (and DOWH, as per the poster above) 4c? I did it on Tuesday and that big traverse pitch is definitely the one to nab!

Prophecy of Drowning (E2 5c). The crux pitch (P3) is exposed and airy but P1 has the most sensational moves of the whole route, with a cool swing around the arete and nothing but air and water beneath you.

What about Shrike on cloggy? The first (crux) pitch is very good but the long second pitch is stunning. My second favourite E2, after Torro, of course 

I'd agree with Dream.

Eliminate A?

The best pitch on Gogarth (E1 5b) is the MVS corner pitch.

Does The Quarryman (E8 7a) count? Lots of people just do the sport pitch But isn't the danger crux meant to be p1 and the hardest move on the final pitch? It could be the case that the final pitch is the best pitch also, I've no idea, but it definitely gets less attention than the sport bit. 

I've done that pitch three times, as the finish to Nimbus, Weaver and Vector. Found it pretty easy the first time, and progressively harder on each repeat.

In winter The Genie (V 7) crux is most definitely the second pitch i found it very thin and tenuous. Glory pitch is the 3rd up the amazing corner with a sting in the tail

Main Wall at Cyrn Las. Pitch 4 is the crux, but the exposed slab on pitch 5 is arguably better.

Pretty much all of them...

That route was the one that jumped out at me too. Absoloutely fab route, but the second pitch is sensational.

I'd also suggest The Big Groove on Gogarth. The top, easier pitch, is much better than the crux.

Second pitch on Lyme Cryme (E3 5c) definitely better quality - moves, position, protection. 

Thats one that immediately sprang to my mind, too.

Ordinary Route (North-East Face) on the Old Man of Hoy. The crux is 5b second pitch, but the fifth and final pitch is the best pitch of the whole climb.

Ardverikie Wall (HS 4b)

The big groove 

Preposterous tales 

Really? I've soloed that pitch (when I was young and daft) when doing Weaver, but didn't contemplate soloing Vector which felt thin and insecure to me.

In reply to climbingpixie:

Fian Grooves (E3 5c) at Carnmore. The brilliant first pitch is what the route is all about, while the short crux pitch above is a bit nasty.

I chose the direct finish pitch - remember that being really good up a steep corner.

I thought the crux on Main Wall was the second (if you do a very long first) or third (if you don't) pitch, up the grooves and then left to belay.  And if so, the wtf? moves on the fourth (or fifth, see above) pitch, sensational but not especially hard, make it a most suitable addition to the thread.

T.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/guillemot_ledge-255/the_spook-1474... pitch 1 is much cleaner much better climbing at 5a than pitch 2 at 5b. That said I think pitch 1 may be worth E1 5a anyway for the pump.

Are you implying that you soloed the whole of Weaver?

If you are feeling a touch greedy on Central Buttress (Scafell) the pitches fall so you can lead the crux pitch (Marr Variation or the Flake) and then finish via Nazgul's last pitch which I thought was the best one.

Raindrop (E1 5b) comes to my mind for it's second pitch.

Edit: Second pitch is now often done with the first in a oner 

Yes. I'd led it before.

Exposure Explosion at Ogmore.
Exposure Explosion (HVS 5a)

Agreed. 

OP:

I thought P1 of Haste Not was significantly harder than P2, but P2 has to be one of the best VS pitches anywhere and arguably even more exciting to second.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/cir_mhor-13421/south_ridge_direct-...

Surely the S crack (4c) is way better than the pitch after (5a)

Wow. I was proud enough just to lead it.

I've not done the True Finish of Shibboleth but on the original route the 5c crux pitch is minging with an amazing 5b pitch above.

For many years it was well protected by the warthog I panic battered into the crack.

Two more winter examples:

The hardest moves on Sticil Face are probably in the wee chimney above the famous icy groove but who remembers that after what went before?

The crux of Skyscraper Buttress is the pitch above the traverse ledge but the icy grooves on the Empire State Finish are far better. I climbed them with a massive grin on my face.

Ordinary Route on Gogarth. Crux pitch a little messy with a hard move, followed by the amazing head wall shared with Positron.

Yes, a very similar experience on that route for me.

The Spire (E4 6a) on the Shelter Stone Crag. The crux short groove of the fifth pitch isn't as good as the magnificent long fourth pitch.

The hard bit on Eroica isn’t as good as either the exciting undercling pitch before it or the nice corner crack to the top.

And next door to it The Magic Crack (VII 7) . Lots of people run the 2 hard pitches together but if you split them as described the hardest moves are on the pitch above the magic crack itself. It's a good pitch but not in the same league as the crack pitch.

The Skull (E4 6a), top pitch much easier and better than the previous one.

I was very pleased with the second pitch of Storm at Polldubh. Crux pitch was a one-move wonder, but middle pitch was spectacular and sustained 

Great Wall (Cloggy), first pitch harder then the second. But it's the second which really matters.

Mick 

I was thinking about Great Wall but decided that, rarely, one of the things which makes it so good is that the two pitches are pretty much equal in quality and difficulty. 

Totally! I thought I was being very clever volunteering for 1 and 3 to avoid having to do the crux. What a mistake. That 'coffin shaped groove' was a total nightmare to second - basically totally unprotected for me (well, until I decided to just abandon a wire that I could reach to unclip from the bottom of the groove but not reach enough to remove).

Back on topic ... I think the corner crack at the top of Eagle Front is the best pitch, although not the hardest.

I can see the appeal of finishing in one pitch instead of three (especially when two of them are short linking pitches) but that fifth pitch really makes the route! Definitely worth doing if you ever find yourself on the route again.

I'm sure that in its usual wet state, it would definitely be better to get your partner to lead pitch two! We were lucky to get it virtually dry at the weekend and it felt like cheating. You should go back and do the True Finish if you get the chance though, those two final pitches are both absolutely superb!

I assume that's using the previous pitches, not the current recommendation to run the previous pitch into the crux?

Ha! As a fellow shortie I feel your pain. I was very glad for that wire on lead as I slithered, hands free, down the coffin!

I've always been put off the groove pitch by rumours that getting into it is very hard for short climbers. So if I ever do Vector I'll probably avoid leading that one anyway.

It had three pitches when I did it.  Apparently it’s now too dangerous to belay where we did and is E4.  So presumably it was E5 the way I did it!

Mulatto Wall when it used to be given 5c 5b - balancy, technical and short lived P1, then you get to the proper climb on P2!

Routes with traverses that aren't the crux seem to feature here; DOWH, Suicide Wall for example.  In a similar vein, I'll add Tophet Wall (HS 4b).

T.

Good thread!

Can I suggest Malbogies?  As it says in Hard Rock: “If the first pitch is the meat of the meal, the second is the Bombe Surprise…”

Agreed!

That's a good one! The first pitch is absolute garbage, though I don't know if it always was (polish n' pegs). 

That was a route that instantly came to mind.

Tophet Wall is a really good example. Last pitch being by FAR the best.

And for that matter, Needle, Steeple, Haystack and Stone Bastion. All have an absolute beaut of a pitch which aint the crux.

I did think about those:

Needle: Depends which pitch you think is the crux and which you think is the best pitch!

Steeple: The corner is superb but is it better than the intricacies of the crux? Probably a matter of opinion.

Haystack: Depends whether you think the top crack is better than the crux pitch. Possibly.

Can't speak for Stone Bastion!

West Buttress Eliminate (E3 5c)?

I suggest that the fact that Walsh's Groove has its own name, while the harder pitch lower down doesn't, might support this.

Certainly agree about both Haste Not and Eagle Front. The short boulders crux of the latter isn’t a patch on the glorious top pitch.

I remember enjoying the second pitch of Eagle Front a lot too.  The last pitch is the definite star though!

T.

I did Integrity (VS 4c) last week. The first pitch is 4b and without question superior to the 4c second pitch.

When I did it, the first pitch was considered the crux, and the second pitch was the better one.

Honest, not just being cantankerous.

Think most consider the first pitch the money pitch. Though I'm not sure the route fits this thread (as a fairly consistent HS 4b,4b).

I would agree with that completely. Certainly there is no diminution of quality on the second pitch, in fact rather the reverse.

Shrike Shrike (E2 5c)

Completely overrated concrete chimney and britomartis are better inmho

Bosigran Ridge: Final 4b one move wonder vs the rest of it.

Many! On Northwest Flank Route on Cir Mhor - convinced the 4b traverse pitch is far superior to the 5b pitch. Whilst the 5b pitch is utterly brilliant, and still one of the best pitches I've ever climbed, the line on the 4b pitch is so strikingly obvious it's just utterly joyous and a route I can't reccomend highly enough.

Do you mean West Flank Route?

Re. West Flank Route. The whole route is brilliant for its variety. 

Yes thats the one!

I suppose 'hardest' is not the same as 'most secure' - to use a well-known example, the lowly 5.10ish (?) blank slabs on Freerider being much more of a sketchy solo proposition than some of the hard but bomber 5.12-5.13 cracks above.

Should add - I've not done Vector/Weaver so no idea about those specific routes, just making the general point about solo vs roped difficulty.